Where are all the conflicted MM?

[In_Repair]

I don't like that "broken" stuff either. We are all individuals trying our best to find our way through life.

 

Yeah, but the problem is that some people can't find their own way through life without destroying someone else's life. Would you agree that a thief is only trying to find their way through life, getting money the best way they know how? Is that okay in your book?

 

On a side note, do you really believe in anarchy? In your anarchist utopia, are you the only one who can do as they please?... or would you also support a BS if they chose to exact revenge on the WS and AP?

[JamesM]

There was a time when being an alcoholic was considered a character defect. Through the non-judgmental program of AA so many have now been helped. Donna, don't you understand that an attitude like yours is helping noone?

 

Unfortunately, calling alcoholism a disease has allowed many people to say that it is not their fault when they drink....it is the fault of the disease. That is not true. Every time we take a drink, it is a choice. Every time we keep taking a drink, we keep making choices. Alcoholism is an addiction that many people need help to overcome, but to call it a disease would mean that it is caused by a virus or bacteria.

 

Calling it an addiction and getting help to overcome that addiction is good. And realizing that it can only be overcome by willpower and not from a medication is a good discovery. Calling cheating a character flaw allows one to still say "It is not my fault...it is my genes that made me do it."

 

While I do believe that a bad situation can encourage someone to make a wrong choice and that his partner can affect his choices, I do believe that it still is the choice of the cheater to cheat...and not some flaw or disease.

 

As it is with affairs and sexual addictions. Many people who have multiple affairs over time are actually addicted to the thrill of affairs. And even the MM who gets into an affair and believes he loves this new woman actually loves the excitement of the affair.

 

My point is...while non-judgmental help is important, the only way a person will realize the pain and grief his choice has caused, is to understand that it is his choice to continue or it is his choice to terminate the affair.

 

I have great understanding as to why someone gets into an affair, but I have no compassion for someone who does not realize that it is a choice and instead compares it to a disease.

 

Getting help is good. Avoiding responsibility is not.

 

Ok, this made me chuckle. We are talking about men who manage to find the money and time to maintain a secret affair. But spending time and money on a counselor is not an option? They can't figure out how to do it under the radar?

 

First of all....while we are all trying to preach honesty, is it a good idea to tell someone to get secret counseling?

 

Second, MM tend to use excuses and alibis to hide their affairs such as "I am working late" or "I am going to the store." They fit these affairs into their schedules as it fits. Going to a counselor who has set hours may be a little more difficult.

 

Third...as was mentioned, counseling is not cheap, and using insurance makes it public. While affairs do cost money, one hour of counseling will be over $100 these days. That adds up quickly. Unless a MM is getting motels every week or so, an affair should not be that expensive in comparison.

 

While I personally cannot fathom keeping an affair, I find it even harder to believe that regular visits to a counselor would be easy to keep a secret.

[xxoo]

First of all....while we are all trying to preach honesty, is it a good idea to tell someone to get secret counseling?

 

I'm not telling anyone to get secret counseling. I'm arguing that "my wife will find out" is not a good enough excuse NOT to get counseling. If you can keep a longterm affair a secret, you can keep counseling a secret. I reject the selective ability to deceive. These are men that have demonstrated the ability to find a way when personally motivated.

 

Anyway, the easiest route would simply to be to lie, or fudge, about the reason for counseling. I'm sure there are other issues to pin the counseling on. It isn't like cheating husbands are poster children of emotional health.

[donnamaybe]

A man suddenly seeking counseling would have to explain that to his wife, don't you think? Could you not possibly see the possibility that for some men counseling just does not seem to be an option, at least where they are in their relationships at the moment?

If he's able to hide an A, sometimes for years on end, then he can CERTAINLY hide the fact he's going to counseling. Particularly when there's that little thing called "doctor-client privilege."

[donnamaybe]

Women are also much more likely to stay in an abusive relationship. A man would leave, a woman would likely stay.

Abuse comes in non-physical forms as well. Thus, you are obviously correct.

[2sure]

Seriously, Ive said before that my longest and healthiest relationships have been with therapists... and no one knows but you people.

[donnamaybe]

Donna, don't you understand that an attitude like yours is helping noone?

Who are you to determine that? I've seen plenty of people on LS who say the "tough love" actually helped them. Allowed them to see things clearly and make the choice that, while difficult, was necessary FOR THEM in order that they could have a happy, fulfilled life with a partner who was theirs ONLY theirs.

 

If you are happy with your situation, fine. But please don't presume to determine for every person on LS what is helpful and what is not.

[donnamaybe]

When you take your OW out to dinner or to the theatre, they do not send the bill to your home.

I really don't think all MM are so ignorant that they can't figure out how to open a PO Box or have some of their mail sent to their office.

[donnamaybe]

They find each other, recognize the brokenness, and try to fix each other. Sometimes the two broken people find that in coming together they can heal what is broken in themselves and each other, sometimes their mutual brokenness only leads to more brokenness.

I think they call that codependency.

[jthorne]

Who are you to determine that? I've seen plenty of people on LS who say the "tough love" actually helped them. Allowed them to see things clearly and make the choice that, while difficult, was necessary FOR THEM in order that they could have a happy, fulfilled life with a partner who was theirs ONLY theirs.

 

If you are happy with your situation, fine. But please don't presume to determine for every person on LS what is helpful and what is not.

I agree.

 

So... from what I've seen out of a thread of how many pages? There are maybe two conflicted MM. What I'm confused about if exactly what they are conflicted about. Maybe my interpetation of conflict is different, but it seems to me that it's not so much conflict, but unwillingness or lack of courage to make a decision. I don't mean that as a slam to anyone, it's just my view. There's no conflict, just indecision.

 

Indecision that I'd bet would be resolved if the BS knew the truth about her life.

[donnamaybe]

I agree.

 

So... from what I've seen out of a thread of how many pages? There are maybe two conflicted MM. What I'm confused about if exactly what they are conflicted about. Maybe my interpetation of conflict is different, but it seems to me that it's not so much conflict, but unwillingness or lack of courage to make a decision. I don't mean that as a slam to anyone, it's just my view. There's no conflict, just indecision.

 

Indecision that I'd bet would be resolved if the BS knew the truth about her life.

Or perhaps there's really no indecision at all. Perhaps there has been a decision to maintain the status quo because that's the way they like things.

[2sure]

juggling a family , a wife, an affair....oh yes, decisions are made.

[hopeless4u]

MMs are no more broken than OWs. (I still love you, though, h4u.)

 

The idea that all MM are fat and happy because they have two women to sleep with is ... incorrect. Without doubt there are some MMs who are in As just to get sex. There are also some who need the emotional connection. I would argue that there are some OWs who are in As just for NSA sex, too.

 

I have trouble with the view that it's the MM who are the bad/broken/evil people who are taking advantage of the poor defenseless OWs. It goes both ways.

 

Ha Ha joey...I love you too.

Yes I agree we(OW) or xOW in my case:) are also broken in some way, it took me a lot of IC to see that but it is true.

Unfortunately not all OW have the luxury of IC.

I was fortunate to get IC through my employer and again fortunate to get a good one:)

[D-Lish]

Or perhaps there's really no indecision at all. Perhaps there has been a decision to maintain the status quo because that's the way they like things.

 

That's what I believe as well Donna... I think a lot of MM (not all, but the majority) are content with the way things are. I don't doubt that a lot of these men love both the wife and the OW. I think it's naive to think that all OW are just playthings- I think these men simply want the best of both worlds and don't ever want to get to a point where they have to make a choice.

 

I've just always been curious as to why there aren't MM lamenting over their situation on LS, and that's why I started the post. I know these kinds of posts often turn into a war, but it doesn't have to.

 

It's often women here that fight over entitlement to the MM, but it's rare that a MM comes here to talk about what he's going through. I often think that's because "he's" content for the most part.

[GreenEyedLady]

Who are you to determine that? I've seen plenty of people on LS who say the "tough love" actually helped them. Allowed them to see things clearly and make the choice that, while difficult, was necessary FOR THEM in order that they could have a happy, fulfilled life with a partner who was theirs ONLY theirs.

 

I agree. Except for the fact that tough love sometimes means that the OW and the MM end up together.

 

Imagine that...

 

GEL

[fooled once]

Women are also much more likely to stay in an abusive relationship. A man would leave, a woman would likely stay.

 

Think about how often men will just walk away from an argument with a spouse or other SO. When the discussion gets too heated and too emotional, they walk away. They say things like, "I just need to cool off." and they leave and come back later when the emotion level has had a chance to de-escalate. Women on the other hand are much more controlled by their emotions, and stick around to fight the emotional battles.

 

There are a few OW on here who have made the claims that the MM they are having an affair with are being abused - mentally and physically. Seriously. These OW claim they had to 'save' these MM from their big ol' meanie wives.

 

Ok, this made me chuckle. We are talking about men who manage to find the money and time to maintain a secret affair. But spending time and money on a counselor is not an option? They can't figure out how to do it under the radar?

 

I agree.

 

You do not have to get a bill sent to your home.

 

Insurance statements do not have to be mailed; they can be emailed.

 

Also, what is wrong with a man telling his wife he would like to see a counselor? Why not --- even go to MARRIAGE counseling? Pretty novel idea, huh?

 

And yeah, completely agree that these MM can text, email, phone, web cam, meet for drinks, a quickie, a weekend away but can't take an hour for counseling? :laugh: Gimme a break. How do the MM cover for the bills they pay for the OW? The cell bill? The rent payment? The gifts they might buy? I mean, according to some, wives must sit and go line by line on a cell phone bill -- and some even claim that is HOW the wife knows because she has nothing better to do than sit and stalk the mailman for that cell phone bill.

 

When you take your OW out to dinner or to the theatre, they do not send the bill to your home.

 

no, it is charged to your credit card and how is that explained?

 

Meeting with your OW doesn't mean you have to take a minimum of two hours off of work between the hours of 9-5 monday-friday at least once a week.

 

go afterwork. And why would the wife know you are at a counseling appointment? I couldn't tell you for a fact that my H is at work from 7 am until 4 pm each day because I also have a job and can't sit on the phone with him the entire time to ensure he is at his job.

 

Your OW does not bill your insurance for which you get a copy of co-pay notices and deductable notifications.

 

call the insurance and ask them to email them to you OR send them to you at work!

 

A man who is not yet ready to confess all to his wife is unlikely to seek counseling because he would have to explain why he was seeking counseling. I am willing to bet that the BW finding out that her husband is suddenly in therapy would not be overjoyed with not knowing the WHY's behind her husband's sudden interest in therapy.

 

Actually, it is MY view that men have no desire to confess to the wife and are quite happy having 2 women vying for his attention. Talk about EGO boost!

 

It is completely possible to seek counseling without having a bill go to your home, or to your insurance. Pay cash. Find a provider who will accept less payment for cash (no insurance).

 

It is also possible to have counseling outside of the 9-5, M-F window.

 

It is also possible to have counseling less than once a week.

 

Agree

[BB07]

I think a lot of MM (not all, but the majority) are content with the way things are. I don't doubt that a lot of these men love both the wife and the OW. I think it's naive to think that all OW are just playthings- I think these men simply want the best of both worlds and don't ever want to get to a point where they have to make a choice.

 

 

I agree with your assessment D-Lish. As crazy as my situation was with xmm, (lying about a separation, among other things) I think he felt as if he loved both of us. On the other hand, to love two people at the same time is selfish and one and or both are getting the short end of the stick and it's not fair to anyone. I also believe that most OW enable the MM to continue on in this way because they are afraid to push, to say hey it's either me or your wife. I also think that when a woman knowingly gets involved with a mm it's a bad set up from the very beginning because they know from the get-go that it isn't going to be like other relationships and they can't expect to have the time, effort or companionship that a relationship with a single guy would entail. So.......the OW starts off expecting less and sadly that is most of the time what they get and then they are afraid to rock the boat and demand more. By the time they realize they are in love with the guy.......they are in up to their ears and emotions sometimes forgo common sense and it's hard to see the situation as clearly as someone would from the outside looking in. So they compromise themselves and what they want......hoping for more than what they are getting.

If.......the mm really does leave, it's most often a back and forth cycle in his own head and he usually acts it out with the bs and the ow and more lies are usually told to both because he selfishly doesn't want to gave up either woman. Someone.......has to stick a boot up his ass in order for him to choose and more often than not too much damage is done all the way around for much of anything to be saved either with the bs or the ow.

It's usually a no win situation all the way around.

 

Of course there is a disclaimer because ALL situations are not as they above, but it seems most are. Depressing isn't it?

[NoIDidn't]

I agree. Except for the fact that tough love sometimes means that the OW and the MM end up together.

 

Imagine that...

 

GEL

 

LOL. Judging by the tone of this post, especially the "imagine that", this post was supposed to upset someone.

 

Why is that? Why is it that some think that the OW and MM ending up together is the worst thing that could ever happen?

 

Either its a good thing for two people that love each other, or someone is just rubbing their victory in someone else's face. But its not both.

 

I'd be very offended if I were the former MP married to my former OP to see them bragging in such a way. My love and commitment is not something to be used as a weapon against others.

[desertIslandCactus]

LOL. Judging by the tone of this post, especially the "imagine that", this post was supposed to upset someone.

 

Why is that? Why is it that some think that the OW and MM ending up together is the worst thing that could ever happen?

 

Either its a good thing for two people that love each other, or someone is just rubbing their victory in someone else's face. But its not both.

 

I'd be very offended if I were the former MP married to my former OP to see them bragging in such a way. My love and commitment is not something to be used as a weapon against others.

 

 

"Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall."

[Ariadne]

I agree. Except for the fact that tough love sometimes means that the OW and the MM end up together.

 

Imagine that...

 

GEL

 

Yeah, and they live happily ever after.

[jennie-jennie]

There are a few OW on here who have made the claims that the MM they are having an affair with are being abused - mentally and physically. Seriously. These OW claim they had to 'save' these MM from their big ol' meanie wives.

 

I wish an OW had come and saved my dad from my narcissistic mother.

[Citizen Erased]

I wish an OW had come and saved my dad from my narcissistic mother.

 

Nobody can save us but ourselves. If you require other people to "save" you, you have a lot more wrong in your life than a narcissistic spouse or whatever the problem with your spouse may be.

 

That's a general "you", not actually you in particular jennie.

[jennie-jennie]

Nobody can save us but ourselves. If you require other people to "save" you, you have a lot more wrong in your life than a narcissistic spouse or whatever the problem with your spouse may be.

 

That's a general "you", not actually you in particular jennie.

 

But an OW could have given my father the inspiration to do something about his life and leave his abusive marriage. I believe this is what happened in OWoman's MM's case.

 

Falling in love can be the beginning of a revolution. You should not underestimate the power of love. It is not for nothing the couple in love is called the smallest collective movement capable of radically transforming our lives.

[desertIslandCactus]

I wish an OW had come and saved my dad from my narcissistic mother.

 

My mother had affairs. I cannot begin to imagine a child wishing an outsider come between their Parents - no matter what words (narcissistic, split self) would be used to justify..

 

Third person in a marriage is not doing Anyone any favors.

[desertIslandCactus]

But an OW could have given my father the inspiration to do something about his life and leave his abusive marriage. I believe this is what happened in OWoman's MM's case.

 

Falling in love can be the beginning of a revolution. You should not underestimate the power of love. It is not for nothing the couple in love is called the smallest collective movement capable of radically transforming our lives.

 

 

A SELFISH so-called "love" that would seek to lure .. to Destroy.