Girls who are size ZERO and smaller look GREAT

[donnamaybe]

When you're dealing with women's weight issues, there's really no such thing as a reasonable way of discussing it so long as women are involved in the discussion.

You sound a lot like Green right here.

 

And you guys wonder why we (women) get PO'd trying to have a debate with some of you.

 

Just kidding. lol

[TheBigQuestion]

You stated that the causation wasn't caused by social pressures attributed to the media or men's opinions (which would also be media/social conditioning brought about by propaganda from the media so no real difference there) because it's been shown to have correlations with the things you listed (ie higher risk factors) and because there were factors present in some of the cases that had nothing to do with social pressures (but that doesn't mean that the causation is the same for all women).

 

Anorexia is a sort of cocktail that normally has several different factors present - any one of which may not be present in each case on an individual basis. Social Pressures and Family Environment are just two of the known and established factors that contribute to some of the cases but as you mentioned there are also Genetic and Psychological factors that come into play however, for you to sit there and state that "nothing could be further from the truth" knowing full well that those are major factors makes you seem intellectually dishonest.

 

"Nothing could be further from the truth" applied to the implication that every case of anorexia was caused by media-propagated images and attitudes about body types. I never said there was no correlation at all. I simply stated that there were many other factors that were being ignored. I figured I would at least point them out. Until you conceded all that information in your paragraph above, your average reader without any knowledge of anorexia would have just assumed that the big, evil, fat-woman hating media is the only reason why anyone and everyone develops anorexia. THAT could not be further from the truth, indeed.

[TheBigQuestion]

You sound a lot like Green right here.

 

And you guys wonder why we (women) get PO'd trying to have a debate with some of you.

 

Just kidding. lol

 

The way this thread has progressed is just one example demonstrating that I'm right. The topic of weight and body type is an extremely sensitive one to just about all women. It's very difficult to have a "reasonable' conversation about a topic that nearly always brings about knee-jerk reactions and claws at people's deep insecurities.

Edited October 19, 2010 by TheBigQuestion

[porter218]

"Nothing could be further from the truth" applied to the implication that every case of anorexia was caused by media-propagated images and attitudes about body types. I never said there was no correlation at all. I simply stated that there were many other factors that were being ignored. I figured I would at least point them out. Until you conceded all that information in your paragraph above, your average reader without any knowledge of anorexia would have just assumed that the big, evil, fat-woman hating media is the only reason why anyone and everyone develops anorexia. THAT could not be further from the truth, indeed.

 

Main issue I have with this thread is there are 3 women with anorexia involved in it. While Green himself didn't give these women the issues to cause their disorder, he isn't very helpful in their recovery. Not that this is his problem, but when they read narrow minded stuff like this(that can be misinterpreted as 'only women size zero and smaller are attractive') it can be a trigger for them to become more active in their disorder. That really scares me to think about.

And then to top it off...from what I have seen men usually like women larger then a size zero. And as for Leigh...well I challenge you to tell me my 118lb body doesn't look great:laugh:. All the while you are obsessing over dropping lower then that. I just don't get it.

[theBrokenMuse]

The way this thread has progressed is just one example demonstrating that I'm right. The topic of weight and body type is an extremely sensitive one to just about all women. It's very difficult to have a "reasonable' conversation about a topic that nearly always brings about knee-jerk reactions and claws at people's deep insecurities.

But the conversaton the OP initiated wasn't exactly worded in a manner that wasn't meant to elicit knee-jerk responses and I think the responses did follow pretty much accordingly for awhile but there were some very interesting, positive and reasonable conversations in this thread too.

[donnamaybe]

The way this thread has progressed is just one example demonstrating that I'm right. The topic of weight and body type is an extremely sensitive one to just about all women. It's very difficult to have a "reasonable' conversation abut a topic that nearly always brings about knee-jerk reactions and claws at people's deep insecurities.

You have to admit that making the statement that girls who are size zero and smaller are hot is also rather knee-jerkish, don'tcha think? I mean, as demonstrated by the pics I posted, it depends on height and frame. The girls in those pics look positively emaciated!

 

Now, I totally get where he was coming from in the circumstances with the fitting. I was a bridesmaid in a wedding of my ex's HS buddy. I was 10 years older than most of the other women involved, yet the little cage thingy they put around you and squish down to your size so they can make your dress for you was barely able to get squished down enough. The gal making the dresses was commenting, of course, and she was probably younger than I was but probably had about 15-20% more body fat ratio than I did. It's all a matter of perspective. And I've never been scrawny. At 5'5" and 135 lbs I'm at 13% body fat, and that's VERY low for a woman, and I'm a size 4 then. If, however, I ever tried to get to a true size zero (unless like when I tried on a VERY expensive Chanel suit in a zero and it actually fit because their sizing is way off), I would have ribs and hip bones sticking out all over the place.

 

I'm rambling now. I better stop.

[sally4sara]

Yeah... note how it's not the father passing these bad traits along. By and large men do not create the pressure to be a certain weight. Typically it comes from other women.

 

The large number of body image obsessed women are also body image obsessed with who they date.

 

I avoid those women like a plague.

 

It use to be illegal in some states for women to:

 

Not wear a corset

Wear a corset and thus denying men from enjoying her curvy form.

Wear make up without a permit; her husband had to apply for the permit

Not wear make up without a permit; again her husband had to get it

Cut her hair without her husbands permission

Wear red after 7pm

Not shave her legs and any facial hair she might have

Wear false teeth without her husband's permission

Wear open toe shoes

 

Tell me please how many of these laws were put into practice and enforced by women considering when these standards became law?

 

And the only ones forcing men to alter their appearance I could find were cross dressing or kissing a woman in public if you had a moustache.

 

We get use to standards and they become common to both men AND women who then give others who don't conform a hassle, but who started the whole "this person must look like" was men. And since it was also very common AND legal in most states at the time to beat your wife if she displeased you - well......you need to hush Untouchable.

[porter218]

It use to be illegal in some states to:

kissing a woman in public if you had a moustache.

:lmao:

That is hilarious! What in the world were they thinking making such laughable laws? Where was this?

[Mutant Debutante]

People who are more interested in other people's PERSONALITIES than their weight, are GREAT.

 

x

 

Huzzah!

[TheBigQuestion]

It use to be illegal in some states for women to:

 

Not wear a corset

Wear a corset and thus denying men from enjoying her curvy form.

Wear make up without a permit; her husband had to apply for the permit

Not wear make up without a permit; again her husband had to get it

Cut her hair without her husbands permission

Wear red after 7pm

Not shave her legs and any facial hair she might have

Wear false teeth without her husband's permission

Wear open toe shoes

 

Tell me please how many of these laws were put into practice and enforced by women considering when these standards became law?

 

And the only ones forcing men to alter their appearance I could find were cross dressing or kissing a woman in public if you had a moustache.

 

We get use to standards and they become common to both men AND women who then give others who don't conform a hassle, but who started the whole "this person must look like" was men. And since it was also very common AND legal in most states at the time to beat your wife if she displeased you - well......you need to hush Untouchable.

 

This type of thinking is a slippery slope to blaming present day men for the sins of their fathers. For numerous generations now, there has been a very obvious disconnect between what men actually find attractive and the extremes that some women go (sometimes manifesting in eating disorders) in order to feel attractive. Very few men actually find waifish women attractive, yet most women with body image issues tend to hold this body type as their ideal. Saying that it's the fault of men from pre-1930 is more than just a bit of a stretch.

[threebyfate]

That sounds realistic. It's a matter of tact and discretion....and these things don't just apply where you have two children who are sisters. I have a niece and nephew who are twins and therefore fluctuate between being fiercely protective of eachother and fiercely competitive with eachother. There are some things that they're both good at, and other areas in which one is strong and the other weak.

 

Constantly, you find yourself balancing encouraging one without leaving the other feeling "not good enough". It can all be affected by the individual child's temperament (more sensitive ones being more vulnerable to that "I'm not good enough" feeling), the mood they're in and whether they've had some setback that results in them being more alert to any "he/she is better than you" messages. Kids being what they are, they won't hesitate to let you know if you're not getting the balance right...and they'll also help you to get the balance right for them as individuals.

I agree with this. But there will be overly-competitive children where you're not doing them any favours to pander to that streak. Better to encourage their strengths so they're not so insecure.

 

I look at my sister who's overly-competitive and overly-sensitive. Where I think my parents erred with her is that being the second child, they tried to be too equitable and also, considered her sensitivities too much to the degree that as an adult, if anyone has more of something, she's highly resentful. The hypocrisy of it all is that when she gets more, it's her just due. My other two siblings and I are similar in that we don't care if anyone has or gets more or less. We know that if we want more, we'll go get it ourselves or accept our own limitations.

 

I agree with you, though, that the adults around a child have a responsibility to help them to be aware of their strengths. It's a competitive world, and children need to be instilled with a fair bit of confidence in order to take it on.

Totally!

 

So how this ties into the thread is that the greater sense of internal self, the less likelihood that people will need to leverage off other individuals for the purposes of self-esteem whether this includes partners or not.

[Leigh 87]

I have ALWAYS liked skinny women. Since I was very young. I have always had an opinion about what I finf attractive. Even at a young age, I liked long blonde hair, pale skin, and blue eyes. I also liked delicate, slender body types.

 

I developed my physical taste towards what I found attractivem BEFORE ANY ONE told me what the standard ideal was. BEFORE i ever picked up a magazine. BEFORE I even watched TV, aside from childrens cartoons.

 

NO one EVER told me that thin " tasted better', or any other sick anorexic concept. In fact, my mum had a very positive outlook on her body image, and encouraged me to eat healthily because it makes your skin better and makes you feel so much better in general.

 

 

 

The fact that guys like Green also prefer naturally small boned women had no bearing on my anorexia. The way my life unfolded, combined with my desire to be thin, lead to my anorexia.

 

I wanted to be thin because I think, and ALWAYS have thought, that it looks more attractive on women. I developed anorexia because I wanted to look thin, in addition to other underlying issues.

 

I was never abused but I was VERY sexually promiscuous ( soz bout spelling) and this traumitized me, I was miserable, and even though I was lazy at school, I am a perfectionist.

 

 

I still see nothing wrong with Green expressing his strong preference for very thin women. In addition to this, I also do not find women who at 5 5 and 160lbs physically attractive. However, I do not judge or dislike them as people. It is just a PHYSICAL preference.

[Lucky555]

Sizes ugh. I'm 5'2 and a size 2 in juniors!!! I hate that some large women hate smaller women!! I am not even thin I could lose 15lbs and be way more attractive. I know sizes have changed and more so for larger women. However I have got nasty remarks because I'm nit overweight, like eat more or your so tiny you have no problem finding clothes. It's insults like that or the fact they don't associate with me because I'm smaller! I have no reason to judge people why do that? It takes self control to eat healthy, maintain your weight, and get motivation to at least exercise. I just don't get why people are so ridiculous. Some girls do starve themselves but mostly it's self discipline to check your weight and monitor what you eat because it shows on the outside. Yes some are naturally thin but they could gain weight too if they ate alot. It's just not rift to judge.

[Knittress]

I still see nothing wrong with Green expressing his strong preference for very thin women. In addition to this, I also do not find women who at 5 5 and 160lbs physically attractive. However, I do not judge or dislike them as people. It is just a PHYSICAL preference.

 

5'5" and 160 is overweight. What I was saying earlier is that this number is not unreasonable on women of a certain height (like, say Green's GF). Putting arbitrary numbers on sex-appeal is pointless. At 5'8" I look as slender (if not more, it's been a while ) as that Porter-cutie when I'm a size SIX. So.. yeah. Dumb thread.

[Jannah]

Why is this thread in dating advice....

 

Would it not be more beneficial for it to appear in the physical health section, where perhaps people can actually benefit from it?

 

It's enough that the media portrays such a ridged standard in body image as is, this is just overwhelming.

[sally4sara]

This type of thinking is a slippery slope to blaming present day men for the sins of their fathers. For numerous generations now, there has been a very obvious disconnect between what men actually find attractive and the extremes that some women go (sometimes manifesting in eating disorders) in order to feel attractive. Very few men actually find waifish women attractive, yet most women with body image issues tend to hold this body type as their ideal. Saying that it's the fault of men from pre-1930 is more than just a bit of a stretch.

 

Where did I say blame today's men for this? I blame the men of that time for the laws of that time. But these attitudes still resonate today. That men are now as scrutinized physically as in the same way only women use to be, isn't only because of today's women either. It is because scrutinizing others is one of our survival instincts. It isn't intrinsically bad that we do this. Quite the opposite because we do this to determine the viability of potential offspring.

 

Where it becomes bad is when it is filtered through and determined by people with minds full of fear, anger, detached entitlement and with an aim to control.

[SteveC80]

I never feel sorry for women who complain about their weight or get some eastign disorder becasue it has nothing to do with Men it has to do with women being crazy and having an innate need to compete and look better then other women

 

You can tell a women to your blue in the face your perfect the way you are but because she doenst look like a girl in a tv show or commercial or she doesnt tihnk she loos better then certain other women in her social circle she should be miserable?

 

You gotta be a total moron to judge yourself on what people on tv shows or in the media in general,should Men hate themslves because they dont have six pack abs like the old spice commercial guy?

 

So i dont buy its Men putting pressure on women its womens narcisism and competitvness against other women

Edited October 19, 2010 by SteveC80

[theBrokenMuse]

I never feel sorry for women who complain about their weight or get some eastign disorder becasue it has nothing to do with Men

So because you don't believe you are the fault of a serious emotional problem you think you should lack empathy for the person who is suffering from it?

[SteveC80]

So because you don't believe you are the fault of a serious emotional problem you think you should lack empathy for the person who is suffering from it?

 

If the problems root is from competitiveness or being stupid then yes i lack empathy

[Peitho]

If the problems root is from competitiveness or being stupid then yes i lack empathy

 

Bulimia nervosa and anorexia nervosa are both illnesses. In fact, anorexia is considered by some to be the most deadly mental illness.

 

Saying that you lack empathy for an anorexic person is no different than saying you have no empathy for an autistic person or a cancer patient.

 

People do not choose to become bulimics any more that they choose to get cancer.

 

Also, very often people with eating disorders hide their illness. And it is often impossible to tell based on their looks. Chances are you know a few (or many) people suffering from an eating disorder.

[Star Gazer]

People do not choose to become bulimics any more that they choose to get cancer.

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. That's apples and oranges.

[Peitho]

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. That's apples and oranges.

 

If I may ask, what do you base your opinion on?

[Knittress]

o.O This thread is never gonna die, is it?

[Taramere]

If the problems root is from competitiveness or being stupid then yes i lack empathy

 

I think really compulsive behaviours relating to eating disorders have roots that are a bit more complex than mere competitiveness or stupidity. For people who have a major problem with them, stress seems to be the trigger - as stress is a trigger in other addictive behaviours. It might seem strange to compare the act of an anorexic going on a diet with the act of an alcoholic pouring themselves a large G & T...but I think there is a common denominator. That these destructive behaviours somehow give the person a short term sense of comfort. Of being in control and detaching from the things that hurt them. People who cut themselves -similar deal.

 

The issue for me is, how do you differentiate between someone who's a bit of a drama whore - who flirts with destructive behaviours like this in a competitive "I see people are getting attention for having an eating disorder/cutting problem...I'd like some of that for me" sort of way, and someone who genuinely does have a major problem that they can't or won't recognise?

 

I know a couple of people who have had such serious eating disorders in the past that they've been hospitalised for it. The reality about those people is that they are in fact competitive in a very unhealthy way. ie they're desperately competitive, and they hate losing. So rather than being a healthy competitor who is driven to win, but can handle the process of sometimes losing, they're driven by this fear of losing and a resentment of seeing others win. A fear of not being as thin or attractive as the next woman.

 

It's negative and unpleasant for other people to be around...so they don't hang around. Who wants to play tennis with someone who's going to sulk and find a reason to fall out with you if they lose? Who wants to go out drinking with someone who's constantly measuring the attention they get against the attention other women get?

 

Although I think there are various issues that contribute to anorexia, I think that "terrified of coming last" mentality is one of them - and in that sense, I can see why people would have difficulty in experiencing empathy for someone who is self-destructing as a consequence of that mentality. There's nothing wrong with being a bit competitive...but not when it gets to that level. It's a big turn off to other people, and so I suppose the anorexic picks up on that and reacts to it by becoming even more immersed in her self-destructive behaviour ("they're just jealous - I'll show them...").

 

On the other hand, some people are given a particularly abusive or dysfunctional start to life which prevents them from having learned, as children, how to handle competition in a healthy and measured way. Or some might have been only children who didn't have the advantage of learning to conflict, co-operation and competition with their siblings. So they have to try to learn all those things as adults, which isn't going to be easy. I don't think one needs to be a bleeding heart to have a certain amount of empathy for someone in that situation.

[sartrelazyeye]

I never feel sorry for women who complain about their weight or get some eastign disorder becasue it has nothing to do with Men it has to do with women being crazy and having an innate need to compete and look better then other women

 

You can tell a women to your blue in the face your perfect the way you are but because she doenst look like a girl in a tv show or commercial or she doesnt tihnk she loos better then certain other women in her social circle she should be miserable?

 

You gotta be a total moron to judge yourself on what people on tv shows or in the media in general,should Men hate themslves because they dont have six pack abs like the old spice commercial guy?

 

So i dont buy its Men putting pressure on women its womens narcisism and competitvness against other women

 

YOU ARE AN IDIOT. It's not just about that......I starve myself to control aspects of my life that I find otherwise uncontrollable. For example, if I am worried about a grade, I will fast. That aspect of my eating disorder is totally unaffected by my appearance. So, THINK BEFORE YOU POST.