Men- interpret! Can't read his signals

[cyclist]

Gentlemen, you have been kind and you have been honest.

Thank you. Sincerely.

 

To answer an earlier question, he's 38. I'm 35.

 

Here's the update:

He and I met yesterday. It went well in important ways and I feel good about it. All our talks are calm and positive (no yelling or meanness), and this one was no different. Like I said, he's a pretty great guy.

 

He told me that he did not want to date now... but wanted to resume later in a few months once he'd cleared his head. He wanted the new relationship (open) to be totally different than the old one (secret), and didn't think that could happen if we started up again now without the break. He said that he's wanted to return to me a thousand times, but forces himself not to-- that this pattern needs to end. We can't start something new if we continue now.

 

(Initially that sounded hopeful... but I can't just go on hoping and waiting for an indefinite, uncertain possibility.)

 

I told him that this left me stuck in limbo-- just hanging on for the possibility of us dating in the future-- and I can't do that. I want to move on (though I would have preferred it to be with him), and I can't if there's this possibility hanging out there. My instinct is to decline invitations (dates, etc.-- and I already have) because my instinct is to be loyal to him- or the possibility of "us"-- and that doesn't make sense if we're not even together.

 

If we had this 'break', I said, we'd both end up dating other people and there's no reason to think we'd ever make it back to each other. I said that changing our pattern meant we'd have to actually *replace* the old stuff with something new (substitute in an actual *something*)-- not just create a gap and expect the things that come after gap to be different.

 

I told him that (he's my best friend, by the way) I wanted to just take dating off the table permanently-- forever. I don't want to be stuck like this-- but I do want us to be able to spend time together (we used to spend every day and every weekend that way), but in terms of hanging out (occasionally) as friends. (We work in similar things in relatively close proximity. It's very easy to not see him at all, or to do all our things in the same place together every day.)

 

I specified that i meant we'd be completely platonic friends with no chance of sex or future dating. Only that way would we have a chance of maintaining a good relationship.

 

We ran out of time for unrelated reasons, so this is where our conversation ended. I'd said that we should take dating off the table permanently. He accepted, and cried pretty hard. I had to leave. We hugged.

 

I sent him a note today thanking him for all of this, and saying a few things about how amazing i think he is, and that I have high hopes for us being friends. We did manage that in the past, and this ended on pretty good terms.

 

Here's my thinking:

I'm taking your advice. I'm going to move on. Genuinely.

I actually feel better "unstuck" already.

 

I hope the friendship thing allows us to spend time together, and for that to go well. Taking the relationship off the table seems to improve the chances of a friendship working.

 

Nothing, of course, is impossible. So, if in the far future, we both feel differently, we could do something about it-- but it would have to be very serious to overturn a "no dating-- ever" rule we've agreed on. We've always had super-crazy (cant-keep-our-hands-off-each-other) chemistry, so there's a chance that might be a force in all of this in the end.

 

Some people have said that it's only when an ex re-evaluates you as being someone of "high value" that he wants to pursue you again. It's possible that if, after rejecting the option of us dating again--and I'm dating other people-- he might feel that way. It's hard to know what will happen. But to be clear, that isn't a sneaky goal I had in suggesting this. It seems like moving on is the best option, and it also has side benefit of having the highest probability of us getting back together (which is very, very low), relative to the other ways of going about this. No matter what, feeling un-stuck is so very, very, very good.

 

If you have any parting thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

Otherwise, many, many thanks to you for being honest with me.

[Don Ho]

Good job Cyclist in coming to that conclusion and accepting it! You went from a hard headed stubborn person to someone with insight and maturity about your situation almost overnight. Good for you. Keep us posted about how you're doing.

[freeshrink]

Dear fellow cyclist,

 

I support your limited contact approach, but I would go No Contact for a couple of months before you embark upon this path.

 

You have done some soul searching and have come to a decision. Quite frankly, you and "your guy" have spent 2 years as great friends and lovers. You stated in an earlier post, that you were discussing marriage and children. You are both in your 30s and many would state that this is sufficient time to decide whether marriage is your ultimate goal.

 

I appreciate that you have not been negative about this man and trashed his character over this forum as some others do. My only trepidation is that he has not experienced the trials and tribulations of a long term relationship. His inexperience might have been the demise of this relationship.

 

I have only experienced heartbreak once in my life, but it has been a revelation and has given me additional perspective.

 

Some are lucky and have never experienced heartbreak. They have no need to join this forum.

 

Good luck on the dating scene. Maybe you will meet somebody in a spin class. LOL!

 

FreeShrink

[cyclist]

Thank you, gentlemen.

I sincerely appreciate your honesty, and your willingness to address the issues I've raised.

 

I'm on a 'no contact' schedule right now.

My heart is totally broken.

I wish I didn't know that he won't erase my email or change his stupid facebook 'relationship status' profile.

 

they say "they heart wants what the heart wants" and that's so true.

 

he sends me texts every so often: eg.: "Watch the new South Park!" or whatever... and it makes me think about him when I don't want to. when i'm trying not to.

 

I want nothing more than to text him to say that tonight's full moon is just gorgeous (just as it was we when we met), but i won't.

I'm going to stick to the advice/ counsel you've given me.

But my hear is ....breaking.

[freeshrink]

This forum has an educational component and a therapeutic one. The first few months after a breakup are especially difficult. We second guess ourselves, and some of us wallow in our own self-pity.

 

Of course, none of us know the details of your relationship. We can only offer support and strategies to cope.

 

I am convinced that as soon as I am completely healed from my breakup and have gotten my life back on track that I will not have the time to read these threads and participate.

 

In some respect, loveshack can be very addictive, and I find myself overanalyzing my own breakup as I overanalyze everybody elses. LOL!

 

This may hinder my own recovery. I am on the fence with this conundrum.

 

Nevertheless, some folks have a knack for giving out good relationship advice and have successfully recovered from their breakup and continue to help others along.

 

These "established members" on Loveshack are to be congratulated!

 

Incidentally, I agree, the full moon during the weekend was beautiful.

[Don Ho]

they say "they heart wants what the heart wants" and that's so true.

 

Yes, but it's up to you to use your mind over your heart to make good decisions and do your best to protect it. Don't use that as an excuse to continue your anguish.

[cyclist]

Agghhhhh.

So I go a full week-- forcing myself NOT to email/ text him... And he emails me. Subject header: "Checking In."

 

"Been meaning to say hi all week", he begins.

In about 5 sentences he updates me on his new job and computer repair issues. Says twice, "hope you are well." (smiley face).

 

I take about 2 days and respond that I'm glad to hear he's doing well. Say I'm looking forward to Halloween and roasting pumpkin seeds and am working extra hours tonight so I can be guilt-free for Halloween. At about this point, the library where I was working started to close. Apologized-- I had to cut it short.

 

Didn't suggest plans. Didn't talk about "us." Stayed positive.

 

(insert dramatic ellipses marks)

 

I'm finding myself *craving* him.. But am staying reserved. Not suggesting plans. Not reaching out. Etc.

 

In truth, I'd been looking forward to *our* time with *our* costumes... and that isn't going to happen. Sigh. It's the third year in a row that we've managed to be in some kind of limbo on this day. Found myself standing in line at the bank today, thinking about how many different rooms in different buildings we've had sex. Chemistry was always something we had in spades... and that's reasserting itself, inconveniently, as a reminder of what we had.

 

The email suggests to me that he's

1) trying to transition himself, or

2) trying to keep the lines of contact open.

 

He still hasn't changed that (damn) facebook relationship status thing or erased my email as he'd promised.

 

I see these as signals that he's not done... but I'm probably deluding myself. The more time that passes, the more distance I feel myself...

 

Thanks, gentlemen, by the way... You've been outstanding.

 

Still... limbo-land.. population: me.

[Don Ho]

Hey Sis. He's just being polite and trying to be supportive when he shouldn't. I wouldn't read into it. I don't think it means much. I think it would have been better for you if you didn't reply.

[freeshrink]

It was probably unwise to break "No contact" after one week and respond to his email. Don't respond to any emails or texts. Stop checking his Facebook status. You will overanalyze, lose a great deal of sleep, and you will stay in limbo land.

 

Don has a "reconciliation" list that he posted on October 24th. It has some good pointers and strategies.

 

However, you are definitely not in a strong position to reconcile at this time. The dumper has to do much more than send out a "what's up" email.

 

I advise no contact until 2011. Let him think about what he has lost.

[cyclist]

Hello gentlemen,

 

Update:

1. -Last week there was a second "checking in" email from him.

2. -I let it sit for a few days. Sent a brief, positive reply- nothing about relationship stuff. Congrats on his new job, etc. Maybe 2 paragraphs.

 

3. Two days later he emails again: Did I see the article in the paper about blah blah blah thing that he knows interests me? How is my relative so-and-so? What costume did I choose for Halloween? (There had been a long-running discussion of women's costumes (ahem) months ago).

 

4. I haven't responded. I had planned to respond briefly this Thursday (omitting the costume detail).

 

***

- Now here I'm not sure what's supposed to happen. I was under the impression that I shouldn't be initiating contact or seeking him out, and responding only very minimally, and after delay, (and not re relationship stuff) if he contacts me. If the idea was to get back together, it seems like we're supposed to be trying to renew contact/ good relations. Or put another way, is there a way to get back together *without* doing that?

 

Before you go medieval on me here, I want to suggest two sides to this coin:

 

Disadvantage of *real* NC

A- If I totally freeze him out, I believe that he *in particular* (real, actual child abandonment in his past)-- but not everyone!-- would take it as "i don't ever want to talk to you again; go away." He'd respect that. So the 'total freeze' seems counterproductive)

 

Disadvantage of *not* doing NC

B- There's a bunch written about people's exes contacting them, essentially for emotional support, to get over that very same breakup. The dumpee think's it's a new beginning-- and the dumper is just getting hand-holding until the next possibility comes around the bend.

 

Advantage of doing *real* NC

C- Item B is avoided.

 

Advantage of not doing real NC

D- One theory says there has to be *some* contact to signal that "i'm fine and think well of him, but I'm not biting for some reason." --That the 'reverse rejection' is what's needed to increase my attractiveness to him. If there's no contact, he could just assume that I'm devastated and broken and that only makes me LESS attractive. So *some* contact seems important.

 

I'm not REMOTELY suggesting that anything has changed/ would change on the basis of these "checking in" emails.

 

Not at all. In fact, the more time that passes, the more I think I cut this guy waaay too much slack and was far more accommodating than I should have been. I'm not interested in going back to the way things were. Being separated from each other removes the thing that, I think, was one of the strongest attractors: basic, crazy chemistry. Like nothing I've experienced before, and not for being cloistered in a convent.

 

This is a "friend-fade" plan, leaving a tiny chance open for a twist/ surprise ending in the last minutes of the film, so to speak. I don't think I want to get back together unless things are very different. So I plan to act like a friend, and limit contact. If he makes some kind of heroic effort and commits to doing things differently, then we could try that. But I don't think he will. If he does, I'm not 100% sure I'd go for it. Settling for friendship wouldn't be a loss.

 

My intention is to respond to him... minimally... cheerfully... and only after a good amount of delay each time. If he suggests plans, I intend to decline and cite a prior commitment. If he asks again... maybe. And then, I would absolutely not discuss "us" stuff whatsoever. If he does, I think I'd say that it was a good thing we broke up-- and that I didn't want to go back to the same dynamic again.

 

I intend to do zero "helping my ex get over our breakup" stuff. So far, he doesn't seem to be doing any of that, and I'm not responding that way either.

 

Do you still advocate NO CONTACT, or do you think a middle road approach is appropriate given what you know here.

 

What do people use the bunny to mean?? I can't figure out how to just nonchalantly slip the bunny into conversation.

 

Many thanks for your honesty. And the tough-love stuff too.

[Don Ho]

Oh boy. NC is to help you move on and get over them with the least (I said least) amount of pain, misery and suffering. The 'total freeze' as you call it is not counter productive for YOU. Also, you do not break contact just because they drop a note and say 'hope you're well'. The ONLY time you respond to them is IF / WHEN they say 'I made a mistake, I can't live without you, I will do anything to get you back, can we talk?' That's it!! Anything else is balogny!! Your "Light Contact" or 'middle road' approach is just a means of fooling yourself. There is not LC or MR in these situations, and yes, unfortunately it is black and white. Please do yourself a big favor, listen to our advice and continue NC UNLESS he comes groveling and begging and even then do so very carefully!

[cyclist]

Don-- I finally found your list that Freeshrink referenced! I was looking in the wrong place the first time. This is good.....

[freeshrink]

You have been dumped. Sorry to be blunt and cruel.

 

No Contact until 2011.

 

You should start dating. Let him start dating.

 

Second chances only work if the dumper initiates.

 

I am a little bit unconventional for the loveshack crowd. I believe second chances only work after the dumper has engaged in MULTIPLE relationships and has realized their mistake. Often this takes years.

 

Limited contact means once every three months, not weekly updates.

 

Why three months? This is the average lifespan of the honeymoon period in a relationship. He will dump or will have been dumped.

 

You are in your mid-thirties and want children. We know very little about this man except that his longest relationship was less than 6 months, and he is in his late thirties.

 

This is a huge red flag.

 

Granted you were able to go 2 years with this man. I realize that you still love him.

 

Let's make a deal. I might be tough, but let me show you my soft spot.

 

If you are proposed to marriage in 2011, then I'll mail you a wedding gift.

[cyclist]

Freeshrink,

I agree with 95% of what you're saying.

 

The 5%? Well, that's why I chose the name 'cyclist'. This pattern (the breakup, followed by the way he's contacting me again now, followed by reconciliation) has played out before--each time we've broken up and gotten back together.

 

I couldn't tell if *this time* was the end of the cycling-- whether this was final, or if we were just looping back around again. This all feels familiar. We'd break up. I'd stop responding. He'd start pursuing me. We'd get back together. Things would get more serious. Rinse and repeat. I interpreted these as being what he needed to do to be sure he was okay with the escalating seriousness.

 

I think we're cycling again, and that he is thinking about reconciliation.

 

Typically, the dumpee would be thinking this *hopefully*... but the more time that passes, the less I feel. Well, I feel weary of it all. So I'm making this 'favorable' assessment mostly without that optimism coloring the prediction.

 

So maybe all of this is moot. Very soon (maybe already--now) his response won't matter. I don't know. You're right about all the red flags. Absolutely right...

 

With each post, it feels like I'm disengaging from that whole relationship drama.

 

Thank you, once again, for your honesty and good advice.

[freeshrink]

I was involved in a 4 year relationship that cycled or was "on again, off again." I prefer the term "yo-yo relationship." The breakups and reconciliation are part of the drama that binds the relationship.

 

Unfortunately usually one person holds the yo-yo and instigates most of the breakups. These relationships tend to be unbalanced. It is the person who cares least in the relationship who holds the yo-yo. The other one watches as the yo-yo goes up and down. Right now, the yo-yo is on its downward arc. I say cut the string.

 

Why? You are not engaged. You write about "escalating seriousness." I like this term. But in actuality is the relationship dramatically more serious? Have you discussed and made plans for cohabitation. Do all your friends and family on both sides recognize that wedding bells are chiming in the near future?

 

Many people discourage the use of ultimatums in the resolution of a relationship. This is the only avenue to break your "cycling."

 

From my experience, these relationships have a major defect. It could be that the personalities are toxic. Many times it is that one person is a real pain in the ass and is very difficult to get along with. Usually, one person is very impulsive and is prone to break up at the drop of a hat.

 

I am convinced that yo-yo relationship are driven by fear of abandonment and a mixture of great sex.

 

The sex is the glue that keeps this stuff going. I question the long term success of yo-yo relationships because incompatibilities are saturating the relationship. Some people claim stability is boring, but ultimately it was makes a relationship work.

[cyclist]

Thank you both.

 

I've taken your advice. It has helped me immeasurably...

 

You strike me as unusually self-aware. Thank you for sharing the benefit of all you've experienced and learned.

 

You're right. It is fear that holds so many 'cycling' and yo-yo relationships together. --That, and epic sex (unfortunately. unfortunately? unfortunately!)

 

i did go 'no contact' after I read your posts.

 

funny things have happened. suddenly, he's emailing. texting. calling.

 

The totally ironic (and a little bit enfuriating-- but ultimately unimportant) consequence is his 'interpretation' of my 'no contact'.

He'd emailed on Friday. Then called on Saturday. His voicemail on Saturday said:

1. he was worried he hadn't heard from me;

2. hoped i'm well; and that

3. maybe this is "what I need to do" (-- i.e. not being in contact with him); maybe "it's what's easiest for me to get over him."

 

 

ha!

 

The glorious thing about 'no contact' is that during that interim (and I somehow suspect i'm not saying anything you didn't already know very, very well) --during that NC time, the feedback you get from *other* people reminds you how much bulls**t you put up with!

 

Each time 'my' guy flipped out (followed by us getting back together), the 'escalating seriousness' entailed changes like asking me to move in (i declined), giving me a key, telling me he wanted to have kids *sooner* rather than later, telling me he wanted to start setting up college funds with his investment counselor, etc. But... so what?! The 'escalation' was real..... but too little, too late.

 

life is short.

 

there's ZERO reason to be with anyone who doesn't treat you well.

 

i can't believe i accepted such bad treatment from anyone-and for so long!!

 

i won't pretend that i don't still have this lingering fondness for him. There were a lot of good times and wonderful intimacies. it would be dishonest to say otherwise.

 

someone said something that i continue to like. it was along the lines of" "people enter our lives to accompany us for parts of our journey. They hold our hands along the way (what a lovely sentiment!). Different people do us that favor at different times-- and usually without knowing it. We should be grateful for the company-- and know that different people will accompany us for different, specific, finite parts of that journey."

 

He was lovely-- even in the ways he treated me poorly. Those are mistakes I made in a relatively safe way-- and mistakes I'm less likely to make again.

 

One more thing: It's so lovely of you to try to help other people-- to give them the benefit of your insight.

 

You absolutely helped me. It feels nice to be interfacing with techonolgy and people (anonymously! and far away!) who come together to help each other.

 

Thank you! You are wonderful!

I hope the people you're with fully deserve you-- and appreciate how wonderfully giving you are.

 

Best wishes!

Edited November 14, 2010 by cyclist

[freeshrink]

Hi Miss cyclist,

 

It appears that no contact is working its magic. Judging from the number of views from this thread, many people including myself, were interested in your breakup and your questions. Often the trials and tribulations of a particular relationship posted on Love Shack resonates with certain members of the community.

 

I doubt that reading the responses from these threads can completely overturn a person's decision regarding their relationship. However, the advice posted on LS can nudge one in a particular direction. Hopefully, the direction will be rational and ultimately lead to a solution grounded in happiness.

 

Good luck in your future endeavors,

 

FreeShrink