Being the ow multiple times.

[Dexter Morgan]

And I gotta wonder why you'd even ask that question.........

I find it hard to believe that any woman would get involved with a mm for the sole purpose of hurting the wife indirectly and orindirectly and actually I don't believe it.

 

i wouldn't expect this to be the case either. but I can see some OW who would subconsciously want to hurt the wife after the affair started, whether it be a need to come out victorious over the W, or BW wants to work it out, H does too, and it pisses the OW off.

[Dexter Morgan]

about the "boundaries" thing. ok, this is the way I see it.

 

Boundary of the person who won't sleep with other peoples' spouses would be the edge of a cliff.

 

Boundary of the person who will sleep with other peoples' spouses would be at the bottom of the cliff.

[MorningCoffee]

I don't read any negative vibes in to why I got attached to my married BF. I see many factors, can recall many incidents, and can see things in my relationship history... but I whilst I was accidentally falling in love in affairyland there were things going through my practical brain

 

He deals with money similar to me

He feels X and Y, and I've not known that (but needed it) in a man before

He can discuss such and such

He would never have an issue with the importance of my relationship with my son

He would not have an issue with my success in the workplace (only woman at my level)

He has a similar sex drive, mentally and physically, to me

 

Loads of other stuff. I was doing a little checklist and he ticked more boxes than I thought any one person could ever do.

 

I wonder whether the 'why would you do it more than once' question is aimed at those who were waiting for their happy ending, didn't get it, and now are waiting again. That's different.

 

It's like meeting a career-mad guy you never see, and you feel neglected and upset, then you go straight to another guy who'll have no time for you and you're there again.

 

The guy being married isn't necessarily the pertinent point in the question, for me. It's more like "did you fall in love with a guy who rejected you for his wife and yet you're now again waiting for a man who's likely to reject you for his wife; are you mad, woman??!?".

 

I agree with this, SG. My ex-AP/MW made for a lot of ticks on my little checklist as well.

 

Like me, she had an artistic temperament in a decidedly bottom-line kind of field. She lived an intense inner life, as do I, and recognized it and could articulate her experience in interesting and enlightening ways. She valued sensuality and intimacy. Her attitude towards wealth and possessions was similar to mine -- nice to have, not essential to a good life. On and on.

 

Many of the ticks on my checklist happened not to be on her H's, and I guess that is partly why she felt so unloved in the M.

[greengoddess]

And I gotta wonder why you'd even ask that question.........

I find it hard to believe that any woman would get involved with a mm for the sole purpose of hurting the wife indirectly and orindirectly and actually I don't believe it.

 

why would you take that question as an insult? she sought out married men and I wonder if in retrospect she felt a get even with women type of thing. if something in her past, competition with a sister for boyfriends or something that made her do this. A single fwb would have worked as well but she sought out mm. Don't you think that's something to be examined?

[jj33]

The thought that his W would be hurt never even occured to me until afterwards but I was very young and my values have changed. At the time I took the view that their vows were theirs and if the H was actively pursuing me he was no saint and if it wasnt me it would be somone else. I dont see it the same way anymore.

 

There have been women who have posted on this forum who on some level clearly feel competitive with the wives which I think is very sad (comparing themselves in terms of looks etc as it if makes them the "better choice") pathetic really to see those posts

[pureinheart]

I have boundaries. It is just that my boundaries are different than yours. That certainly does not mean that I do not have boundaries. Yours and my moral differ, and thus do our boundaries.

 

Your boundaries allow you to do things I would never do, and vice versa.

 

This is very true and objective...it cracks me up because I have had people gasp, "OMG, you did *that*???!!!"...and that very same person ended up going to jail for child porn, and they believe he molested his children (he was a high level executive and was caught at work, they warned him repeatedly not to veiw porn during company time, they later discovered it was child porn).

 

Another person that felt I was way over the top chastising me continuously (with the Bible I might add, using God to drive his agenda)...and I really felt like a very bad person...he ended up getting busted for child molestation (he was convicted not just charged).

 

I have had this happen a lot, so when people are overly concerned about what I do, I have to wonder what skeletons are in their closet.

[greengoddess]

This is very true and objective...it cracks me up because I have had people gasp, "OMG, you did *that*???!!!"...and that very same person ended up going to jail for child porn, and they believe he molested his children (he was a high level executive and was caught at work, they warned him repeatedly not to veiw porn during company time, they later discovered it was child porn).

 

Another person that felt I was way over the top chastising me continuously (with the Bible I might add, using God to drive his agenda)...and I really felt like a very bad person...he ended up getting busted for child molestation (he was convicted not just charged).

 

I have had this happen a lot, so when people are overly concerned about what I do, I have to wonder what skeletons are in their closet.

 

wow I would start to ask myself what kind of people am I associating with. lol

[greengoddess]

The thought that his W would be hurt never even occured to me until afterwards but I was very young and my values have changed. At the time I took the view that their vows were theirs and if the H was actively pursuing me he was no saint and if it wasnt me it would be somone else. I dont see it the same way anymore.

 

There have been women who have posted on this forum who on some level clearly feel competitive with the wives which I think is very sad (comparing themselves in terms of looks etc as it if makes them the "better choice") pathetic really to see those posts

 

Thanks jj for explaining and answering this in the spirit it was asked, curiosity and introspection.

[fooled once]

To keep this post ON TOPIC......

 

Good question ... maybe sometimes new *drama* is easier to cope with than just stopping, taking stock and really working out who you are, what you want and what you don't want ... and then taking responsibilty for directing your efforts towards yourself and letting others be to do the same for themselves.

 

There's also that old addage ..... "Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." ... One can avoid that terrible thing called responsibility by jumping from one R to another and not stopping in-between.

 

btw, just came aross a lovely quote that I haven's seen before .. made me laugh ..

 

"Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's addressed to someone else"

 

------------------------

In terms of my experience being other OM then looking back from where I am now I can confidently say:

a) It was a waste of my time - it just distracted me from issues, within me, that I should have been coming to peace with

b) It was a waste of her time - it just distracted her from issues, within her, that she should have been coming to peace with

 

The drama of the A only prevented me from spending time where I should have been spending it, on coming to terms with me.

 

When I left she was desparate for me not to, I can now see that this was driven by sheer panic that without the distraction of an A in her life she would potentially have to look deep within for her answers.

 

I strongly suspect she never did and instead created a new source of distracting drama.

 

So the A delayed me facing what I needed to face and she was nowhere nearer to facing her issues by the end of it either.

 

So, to answer the OP from another way, perhaps people get involved again because they aren't yet ready to face themselves.

 

Without criticising or judging I would see compartmentalisation as just another strategy for avoidance ... I've used it before but now I can see why I was using it.

 

Once you come to terms with yourself then you don't need it and don't need the distraction/validation of an A.

 

Maybe one might also go to other A's because one's own personal pain threshold has not yet been reached ... it may hurt but not enough to force one to really ask oneself ... "Why am I doing this to myself?"

 

Anyhow, just musings over a cup of tea

 

Chris

 

 

[/FONT]

 

Excellent post Chris. Thank you so much for being so honest and posting from your heart. Thank you so much.

 

And I gotta wonder why you'd even ask that question.........

I find it hard to believe that any woman would get involved with a mm for the sole purpose of hurting the wife indirectly and orindirectly and actually I don't believe it.

 

We do have a poster here (haven't seen her in awhile) who has stated repeatedly she stays because she likes that she is having an affair with a MM and the devastation it would cause the wife if she found out. She has stated repeatedly she does believe it is a competition and she is "winning" because he continues the affair (although he has also told her repeatedly he isn't leaving).

 

I do believe some OW do like the idea of the wife hurting when/if she finds out. To some OW, it becomes a competition and they want to "win" but also know they don't think the affair would ever turn into a true, trusting monogamous relationship.

 

I don't understand how some say they have no thoughts of the wife? How can you not? You are sneaking around, he goes home to her and he has a life with her. How can there be no thoughts of the wife?

[jj33]

Green Goddess this thread has really made me think about things I had long since forgotten. When I was young (in my 20s) i was amazed that it seemed like every older man I met was cheating. Professors, deans, friends of friends (I had older housemates) and when I graduated from univerity friends' bosses etc etc. I am at my core quite conservative though my actions dont always show that. And I was surprised. And I think I was much tougher when I was young. More alert and more resilient. I looked at these people and thought fun, interesting, but a bad bet as a life partner. I was in my early and mid 20s during this phase, they were in their mid-late 30s. I "hung out" with some of these men occasionally in between boyfriends and had an affair with one actually I guess 2 but stopped seeing the 2nd when he got married (there was no way we were ever marrying we were very good friends but with benefits). I pitied his gf (later W) because I wondered if he would ever be faithful to her. I ended up going into the same profession she was in and look back and recall how my roomate and I thought she was a nerd:o Oh the hubris of youth... I remember going to their wedding and telling him he better straighten out and do the right thing.

 

After the actual A I felt such guilt, I sometimes used to wonder if God was punishing me for that and thats why I couldnt find anyone to marry. It haunted me that I had been in that position. But at the same time, he was no doubt a player. As I said he had 2 eight year marriages and offered to leave the 2nd for me (uh no thanks...) I remember how surprised I was when he pursued me because I couldnt understand how he could have cheated on his W (I used to know people in their home city so I had met her a few times). I remember telling him how much I admired her (they were almost 40 which is alot older when you are 25) and would never get involved. It turned out she assumed that just because we met up when he was on assignment that there was an A. In retrospect that was more an indictment of him than me, but at the time (impulsive and immature) i decided if Id been judged and convicted when I had in fact been the one to defend her honor, that I may as well since noone believed me anyway. And we had a lovely time for about a year. Then I met someone single. He kept in touch for a few years but I never resumed the A. So it wasnt against her but I was very hurt that she would think I would do that. So when she wouldnt believe otherwise (as I was fending him off) I acted as she expected me to. Silly in retrospect but thats the way it went. Again a much bigger indictment of him. That was an "exciting" affair. Glamorous etc etc. He lived in a luxurious hotel and I lived in a little apt so it was a nice change, he was in finance and had a big expense account and we used to go out all the time and it was a blast.

 

And when I got involved with xMM I made sure that his w knew because I didnt want that guilt again. I was much worse for wear so many years later and remembered how uplifting the earlier experience had been and thought its not what every little girl dreams of (being a mistress) but Ive been though so much, why not as it was a very positive experience last time. In fact he yearned for the "simple life" that I lead and that was mostly what we led. It was nothing like the earlier A, it was a life that we built together and he spent far more time with me than with anyone else during the time we were together as did the other one, but it was real time. Not just going out to dinner and parties but time at home, doing normal things. Having to deal with him now is so difficult. For whatever reason Ive never met anyone else (and not for lack of trying) and his presence in my sphere even when I hardly see him is a constant reminder of the love that I had and may never have again. Id say that is my punishment but I think his W wishes we were still together too if only to get him out from underfoot.

[pureinheart]

curious do you think it's possible you also subconsciously wanted to hurt their wives.

 

 

This is very possible, especially if they know the W/H. It happened to me with bf's and H's...they wanted what I had.

 

I also had a bf that confessed later that he hurt me on purpose (he had been hurt in the R prior to me), to see how it would feel to hurt someone like that:sick:

[pureinheart]

wow I would start to ask myself what kind of people am I associating with. lol

 

You would be surprised GG, these people on the outside were "regular" appearing people:sick:...one was a co-worker and the other was a good friends H...GG, how do you really know?

 

Very good thread BTW

Edited October 26, 2010 by pureinheart

[jthorne]

wow I would start to ask myself what kind of people am I associating with. lol

I agree, and I read this as the avoidance that Chris was talking about. If one says, "I can't believe you did that," and the answer is "what are you hiding?" is avoiding wanting to search within themself to discover what continues to cause them to get into situations with people who end up hurting them.

 

So earlier, I was thinking that unless one takes responsibility for their role in their issues, they repeat those patterns. Chris, on the other hand, said that people get into those situations to avoid dealing with their issues... A which came first, chicken or the egg kind of situation, I guess. Or is it the same thing said differently?

 

My brain is too tired right now to figure it out. Moral of the story is a person ultimately has to deal with their own issues.

[jennie-jennie]

I agree, and I read this as the avoidance that Chris was talking about. If one says, "I can't believe you did that," and the answer is "what are you hiding?" is avoiding wanting to search within themself to discover what continues to cause them to get into situations with people who end up hurting them.

 

So earlier, I was thinking that unless one takes responsibility for their role in their issues, they repeat those patterns. Chris, on the other hand, said that people get into those situations to avoid dealing with their issues... A which came first, chicken or the egg kind of situation, I guess. Or is it the same thing said differently?

 

My brain is too tired right now to figure it out. Moral of the story is a person ultimately has to deal with their own issues.

 

I don't agree with the bolded. By getting "into those situations" we understand something is wrong and needs to be dealt with. An affair tells you something is lacking either within you or within your marriage.

 

I just got diagnosed with anemia today. The reason I went to the doctor was because I was feeling exhausted, and I realized that my heavy bleeding might be causing the symptom. Had I not become exhausted, I would not have gone to the doctor, but I would still have had a low hemoglobin level.

 

So symptoms are good, they show us what issues we need to deal with.

[BB07]

why would you take that question as an insult? she sought out married men and I wonder if in retrospect she felt a get even with women type of thing. if something in her past, competition with a sister for boyfriends or something that made her do this. A single fwb would have worked as well but she sought out mm. Don't you think that's something to be examined?

 

I didn't say I took it as an insult. It's just that I find it hard to swallow that another woman would be that cruel, of course you are probably going to argue that it is that cruel to the BS but yet I don't think most OW think about that when IT is happening. Yes later..........I get it, but I didn't then, well not the full impact of it.

 

I can't answer for anyone else, I can only give you my thoughts and opinions but yet it's hard to see another woman intentionally inflicted pain on someone she doesn't know.

[jthorne]

I didn't say I took it as an insult. It's just that I find it hard to swallow that another woman would be that cruel, of course you are probably going to argue that it is that cruel to the BS but yet I don't think most OW think about that when IT is happening. Yes later..........I get it, but I didn't then, well not the full impact of it.

 

I can't answer for anyone else, I can only give you my thoughts and opinions but yet it's hard to see another woman intentionally inflicted pain on someone she doesn't know.

Well, there are women who view it as a competition. There are others who hate other women. I'm not saying any of those women are here, but they exist.

 

And we all know that there are MM who tell the OW what an evil witch the BS is, and what a battle axe she is. An OW could twist things to want to hurt the BS for "hurting" the poor, downtrodden MM. Maybe they see all BS as vile cretins who deserve whatever they get.

 

I guess if a person had no respect for marriage, or saw the BS as a warden, they wouldn't have a problem being a serial OW.

[pureinheart]

I agree, and I read this as the avoidance that Chris was talking about. If one says, "I can't believe you did that," and the answer is "what are you hiding?" is avoiding wanting to search within themself to discover what continues to cause them to get into situations with people who end up hurting them.

 

So earlier, I was thinking that unless one takes responsibility for their role in their issues, they repeat those patterns. Chris, on the other hand, said that people get into those situations to avoid dealing with their issues... A which came first, chicken or the egg kind of situation, I guess. Or is it the same thing said differently?

 

My brain is too tired right now to figure it out. Moral of the story is a person ultimately has to deal with their own issues.

 

Are you responding to GG's statement alone or the entire context of her reason for statement?

 

If so you are taking my original statement out of context.

[freestyle]

I didn't say I took it as an insult. It's just that I find it hard to swallow that another woman would be that cruel, of course you are probably going to argue that it is that cruel to the BS but yet I don't think most OW think about that when IT is happening. Yes later..........I get it, but I didn't then, well not the full impact of it.

 

I can't answer for anyone else, I can only give you my thoughts and opinions but yet it's hard to see another woman intentionally inflicted pain on someone she doesn't know.

 

 

Oh, there was one here about a year ago, who gloated about getting an extra measure of thrill, and power-tripping over the fact that she could destroy the BW's world with one phone call..................

 

It's not common, but I have encountered it on other forums also.

 

It's appalling, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I don't think it's common, but it does happen. My speculation is that just like many MM have "mommy issues" (the need to rebel against the mean mommy who didn't let him do whatever he wanted--some of these men project or transfer those unresolved issues onto their W's, and reenact their teenage drama) ---I believe that there are also women who have the subconscious drive to punish "the Mean Mommy" . Or sister. Or female bully................etc.

 

 

I understand your disbelief, BB---it's hard to wrap one's brain around the fact that anyone could be so deliberately cruel, and get off on someone else's pain-----especially if you're a good person. I didn't believe it myself, until I ended up dealing with an OW like that myself...

 

so yes, they are out there..........Thankfully, it's not the norm.

[pureinheart]

Oh, there was one here about a year ago, who gloated about getting an extra measure of thrill, and power-tripping over the fact that she could destroy the BW's world with one phone call..................

 

It's not common, but I have encountered it on other forums also.

 

It's appalling, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I don't think it's common, but it does happen. My speculation is that just like many MM have "mommy issues" (the need to rebel against the mean mommy who didn't let him do whatever he wanted--some of these men project or transfer those unresolved issues onto their W's, and reenact their teenage drama) ---I believe that there are also women who have the subconscious drive to punish "the Mean Mommy" . Or sister. Or female bully................etc.

 

 

I understand your disbelief, BB---it's hard to wrap one's brain around the fact that anyone could be so deliberately cruel, and get off on someone else's pain-----especially if you're a good person. I didn't believe it myself, until I ended up dealing with an OW like that myself...

 

so yes, they are out there..........Thankfully, it's not the norm.

 

I think it's more common than we think, just in different things. A person at work used to (around layoff time) tape exposed razor blades on the handrails of the workstands, another did tens of thousands of dollars in damage (during layoffs) in a sabotage effort.

[BB07]

10 characters.....

Well, there are women who view it as a competition. There are others who hate other women. I'm not saying any of those women are here, but they exist.

 

Well I don' t personally know any women like that, but I guess they do exist.

 

And we all know that there are MM who tell the OW what an evil witch the BS is, and what a battle axe she is. An OW could twist things to want to hurt the BS for "hurting" the poor, downtrodden MM. Maybe they see all BS as vile cretins who deserve whatever they get.

 

As for your above statement, the mm pitting the OW and BS against each other that's pretty standard MO, however you take it a step beyond that with that vile cretins statement and deserving what they get. As a matter of fact, even when I believed the lies that xmm told me about hs/ss I didn' think that she was evil or a horrible person, I just thought that she was reacting out of pain or she was still hanging on to him. I wasn't a saint nor am I now, but I had compassion for her even before I knew the truth. Of course my compassion grew for her when I realized the terrible things he did to both of us in order to keep us from knowing the truth.

 

I guess if a person had no respect for marriage, or saw the BS as a warden, they wouldn't have a problem being a serial OW.

 

 

 

Oh, there was one here about a year ago, who gloated about getting an extra measure of thrill, and power-tripping over the fact that she could destroy the BW's world with one phone call..................

 

It's not common, but I have encountered it on other forums also.

 

It's appalling, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I don't think it's common, but it does happen. My speculation is that just like many MM have "mommy issues" (the need to rebel against the mean mommy who didn't let him do whatever he wanted--some of these men project or transfer those unresolved issues onto their W's, and reenact their teenage drama) ---I believe that there are also women who have the subconscious drive to punish "the Mean Mommy" . Or sister. Or female bully................etc.

 

 

I understand your disbelief, BB---it's hard to wrap one's brain around the fact that anyone could be so deliberately cruel, and get off on someone else's pain-----especially if you're a good person. I didn't believe it myself, until I ended up dealing with an OW like that myself...

 

I don't see myself as naive, but I guess in this vein maybe I am because I haven't personally known of anyone so cold and deliberately cruel. I tend to think that most OW stick their head up their own ass in the midst of the affair in that they put thoughts of the BS as far away as possible.

 

so yes, they are out there..........Thankfully, it's not the norm.

[on a learning curve]

about the "boundaries" thing. ok, this is the way I see it.

 

Boundary of the person who won't sleep with other peoples' spouses would be the edge of a cliff.

 

Boundary of the person who will sleep with other peoples' spouses would be at the bottom of the cliff.

 

What does this mean? It seems that you enjoy taking cheap shots at the expense of others. You haven't made a mistake?

 

Sometimes we over step our boundaries...that's life. You seem to have a tendancy to paint everyone with the same brush and how is that compatible with learning...growing?

 

I was the OW for 13 months, and I will NEVER do that again. It takes all kinds though.

[freestyle]

10 characters.....

 

I don't see myself as naive, but I guess in this vein maybe I am because I haven't personally known of anyone so cold and deliberately cruel. I tend to think that most OW stick their head up their own ass in the midst of the affair in that they put thoughts of the BS as far away as possible.

 

 

 

Oh gosh, BB, I hope you didn't think I was implying that you're naive---that certainly wasn't my intention.Absolutely no offense was intended.And I apologize if I came across as patronizing.In a sense, I was paying you a roundabout compliment, implying that you're too decent to even consider that kind of behavior.

 

What I'm trying to express is that most good-hearted people don't really expect anyone to be that intentionally cruel---It's the kinda stuff we see in movies and soap operas--but in real life?

 

So when we do come across someone that devoid of conscience, it's almost surreal..................Disbelief is a normal, knee-jerk reaction.

 

I'm glad you haven't had to experience anyone like that in your life. It's the kind of thing that can shake your faith in humanity, make you question everything.It also makes it that much harder to trust again.

 

 

I agree with the latter part of your statement---the "head up one's ass" analogy for a lot of OW---it's more of an out of sight, out of mind thing...the BS is barely a blip on their radar. At least until D-day rolls around.

Denial is the norm--

 

enjoying the fact that a BS is hurting is NOT the norm.When it does happen, it's just pathological, IMO.

[BB07]

I don't see myself as naive, but I guess in this vein maybe I am because I haven't personally known of anyone so cold and deliberately cruel. I tend to think that most OW stick their head up their own ass in the midst of the affair in that they put thoughts of the BS as far away as possible.

 

 

 

Oh gosh, BB, I hope you didn't think I was implying that you're naive---that certainly wasn't my intention.Absolutely no offense was intended.And I apologize if I came across as patronizing.In a sense, I was paying you a roundabout compliment, implying that you're too decent to even consider that kind of behavior.

 

 

Freestyle.....no, no, no.......lol I didn't view your post as patronizing at all. In fact I thought you put your thoughts out there in a very kind way and you made some good points and hey thanks for the compliment.

 

I have to say the last few months have been excruciating painful but I'm going to be a better me for it.

[KarmasTestDummy]

Chris that really was an amazing post. Thank you.

 

Sometimes I think the bs that becomes the ow has the attitude of hey I lived through it so can his wife and I deserve happiness too after all I've been through.

 

That wasn't my attitude at all, but I did find differences that somehow made it okay. It helped thinking w was a horrid person as he led me to believe. Once you play on my sympathies, I'm very weak.

[KarmasTestDummy]

curious do you think it's possible you also subconsciously wanted to hurt their wives.

 

I don't think for me at least going from bs to ow that I ever wanted to hurt anyone, but maybe subconsciously after my ex h chose to stay with his ow I wanted to see if another man could ever or would ever choose me. I felt like my m and kids and history were so easily discarded, would I be worth the same to someone else who professed to love me. Not a viewpoint I ever considered up to now..but interesting and thought provoking as to my psyche all the same. Sucks I just ended up discarded twice though.