Guys, do you respect women who have fbuddy relationships? Is that a "low-grade"chic?

[D-Lish]

For every woman engaged in a fwb situation, there is a man engaged in the same arrangement.

 

Is the woman's character the only one that should be scrutinized?

 

A man that does this is just being a guy, but a woman that does this is being a whore...blah, blah, blah. This arguement has been beaten to death.

[TheBigQuestion]

So is this yet another thread we can't take anything useful from?

 

Yep. It's just another pissing contest.

 

Most of the women's responses in this thread can basically be reduced to "You're a man and you think that you can judge women and make some generalizations about them based on their sexual history. Therefore, you are sexist, hateful, bitter, a 'little man,' even though I've judged men on the same criteria in the past."

 

Most of the men's responses in this thread can basically be reduced to "I've been burned by women in the past, so if they've had sex with more than a handful of guys, they're automatically backstabbing, soul-sucking beasts."

 

I'd say the women in this thread have been less reasonable though. LiveWell is presenting his thoughts in a logical and emotionally neutral manner. Most of the women that have responded to him have resorted to ad-hominem attacks and denigrated his opinions as worthless just because they disagree with them. There's a lot of unnecessary combativeness in this thread, and it for the most part is coming from female posters this time.

[fltc]

For every woman engaged in a fwb situation, there is a man engaged in the same arrangement.

 

I disagree, I suspect in many FWB situations there is one of the two who has feelings for the other. .

 

Often times expressing those feelings can end the relationship if the other has no such feelings.

[TheBigQuestion]

For every woman engaged in a fwb situation, there is a man engaged in the same arrangement.

 

Is the woman's character the only one that should be scrutinized?

 

A man that does this is just being a guy, but a woman that does this is being a whore...blah, blah, blah. This arguement has been beaten to death.

 

No, the woman's character is not the only one that should be scrutinized. However, this is a thread about WOMEN who are in FWBs. This happens in every thread where someone asks about some potentially questionable behavior on the part of a woman. Every woman chimes in with "hey guys do it too!!!" If we're discussing women, that interjection is meaningless, and is also needlessly combative.

[LiveWell]

It would make for a wonderful flourish to the story of how we got together, but it would be inaccurate.

 

A reader can only go on the details that were provided. What I read was that the very first time you met h in a "dating" capacity of some kind, it was at a barbecue. You had bought ribs for your dinner and then shared your dinner with him. The date continued and then later that evening you became intimate with him for the first time.

 

Are you saying that you had a discussion with him that you would be FWBs with each other after eating the ribs but before the first time you were intimate, later that same day?

 

 

I thought he was too loud, perhaps not trustworthy, and much too young.

 

OK these are new details. But they don't really square with sharing your dinner with him, and then deciding he was so attractive to you that you would be intimate with him on the first date. So whatever your reservations, your physical attraction must have easily overcome those reservations. Also, basically what you're saying is you perceived him as a "bad boy" (too loud, untrustworthy) and studly ("too young" = cougar bait). What's not to like?

 

 

 

I'd known of him for about a year but not well. I'd heard a few people speak ill of him in that time.

 

LOL, OK so you knew him for a year, and you'd heard just enough gossip about him to be "curious" about him. "Bad boy" gossip, perhaps? People spoke "ill" of him? Was he described as a player? A heart-breaker? Hmmm a bad boy who was not "too" bad, a perfect challenge....someone to "tame"....

 

I just wanted to go to the ribfest and wanted company.

 

You asked him out on a date. If you went to the ribfest with him, then it was a date. It sounds like you asked him out, which would be consistent with your "paying for his dinner." Of all the guys that you knew at the time, you picked some guy at random? Or did you pick the guy who seemed like he would be the most "fun" company at the ribfest?

 

 

Over the next few months, I told him to take a hike a number of times for the reasons I listed above.

 

So how is that a FWB relationship, on either side of the relationship? If you told him to take a hike several times but he kept pursuing you, this is just the typical courtship game that many couples play...the man pursues, the woman plays hard to get. This is what establishes the woman's value. At least in conventional relationships. The fact that you might have had a ONS at the very beginning, after a date at the barbecue, and maybe sex a few other times--although that doesn't seem possible if you kept trying to get rid of him--doesn't make it a FWB relationship.

 

 

He was too loud (still is sometimes), he wasn't trustworthy (at first) and he is younger than I and I doubted he had the maturity to deal with being in my son's life.

 

As I think I stated in a prior post, a single mom with a young child is generally always going to be looking at any dating prospects as potential step dad material. But this is the conventional wisdom, isn't it?

 

 

HE decided to make some personal changes in the time he began to get to know me better.

 

Yes because he valued you, was seriously courting you, and wanted to improve himself to be acceptable to your standards. Even though you kept rejecting him. Again that's totally conventional courtship, but it's not FWB.

 

 

 

Like learning to be more honest because he was dealing with an honest person. And he turned out to be an excellent father. Had he continued on as he was presenting himself initially, we would not be here today.

 

This is all great stuff but every single word of it indicates that your relationship with your h was never an FWB, it was a pretty conventional courtship by a single man of a highly desired woman.

 

 

 

I don't care how YOU define anything.

 

Of course not. You don't have to.

 

I don't care if you want to take me at my word or if you want to read into it with ideas you cannot know to be fact.

 

I am taking you at your word(s). The factual situation you described is one in which you heard about an intriguing guy, somewhat dangerous perhaps, asked him out on a date, had a GREAT date which ended in intimacy, he kept coming back for more, you kept rejecting him because he was immature and not suitable stepdad material, he valued you highly so did his best to improve to meet your standards, meanwhile you really couldn't get interested in any other guy even though you tried dating other guys, that intense chemistry you felt on that first date couldn't be denied, you fell in love, you got married.

 

No FWB anywhere at all in this very sweet and romantic story, at least none that I can see.

 

Where is the part where you and he had an explicit agreement that he would come over to your place (or your to his) every other Thursday for two hours? I didn't see that, nor did I see anything close to it that would suggest a FWB.

 

 

This is again, another instance of whatever you want there fella, but how is it working for you?

 

As far as I can tell you only had sex with this guy a single time, that first date, and then kept rejecting him for several months because he was too loud and obnoxious. I don't see any other sex (i.e. the "benefits") so it couldn't have been a Friend with BENEFITS scenario, unless you're leaving the "benefits" part out. If so, if you were having sex with him all the way along, you should have included that in your story. Having sex with someone is not my idea of repeatedly rejecting them, which is what you said actually happened.

 

 

 

how it worked for me was I stopped worrying whether or not someone I was seeing approved of me or my life and started caring more about if I approved of them and how well they fit INTO my life before making them an important factor in my decisions.

 

OK great. But you didn't actually describe a FWB relationship, you described the opposite.

 

 

 

What you would call a FWB, I wouldn't even bother with. What I call a FWB, you call a boyfriend. So what.

 

 

LOL I win.

[stillafool]

LOL. If you're going to insist on making ad hominem attacks, please try to make them a little more creative and entertaining.

 

I'm not trying to entertain YOU.

 

 

 

I was asked to explain my thought process, and I did. It has nothing to do with "feeling good" or not. I have no particular feelings about it one way or the other, and am kind of surprised that anyone would persistently have such intensely emotional responses to a rather dry and abstract discussion on a forum like this one.

 

You can explain yourself without being completely insulting to someone.

 

 

 

No, I didn't. Please read more carefully next time?

 

No why don't you read more carefully next time. No one asked you to read Sally's mind as to what she was thinking on her first date with her husband. Since you think your way is the best, why don't you tell us how you met, courted and asked your wife to marry. What was your time frame?

 

Thanks.

[9Lives]

I'm starting to really enjoy this thread! I figure we're only a few posts away from pistols at dawn soon to escalate to tactical nukes! <G>

 

One thing I learned, people really don't agree on ANYTHING about 'FWB', not even on the definition!

 

BTW, accept the fact that, for men anyway and probably for women, 'making love' and 'having sex' are two VERY different things, I hope that will help some folks get a better handle on the FWB thing?

 

 

that's the problem. some women are getting it twisted by thinking him sexing her on a REGULAR basis means we are in a relationship.

 

all I'm saying is KNOW your position ladies...KNOW the rules of the bullsht.

 

I know we got some dimes on here that can hold their own in these type of situations but there are a lot of CHICKEN HEADS getting played.

 

chicken heads!!! I was a chicken head so don't get upset about the term. . upgrade yourself.

 

so if you being a FB...Be a FB...u not the potential gf

 

if u gonna be the FWB...be the fwb...dont expect to be more than that one day.

[stillafool]

OK, but whoever said that having sex on the first date = FWB???

 

I'll tell you what: Next time you are visiting with your bor and sister in law, refer to them as each others "FWB" or "F buddies" and see what kind of reaction you get.

 

If I called my sister and bro in law "f buddies" or "FWB" or if I called my wife's brothers and their wives respectively, F buddies or FWB I think they all would be extremely offended.

 

Like I said since you brought up your bro and sister in law why not ask them what they think and let us know. All input on this is welcome, right?

 

Why would I refer to my brother and sister in law as FWB's or f buddies when they are married people? I'm sure after 17 years they would probably get a kick out of it if I did.

[Woggle]

Why is it that every time a man tells it like it is he is called hateful? It seems that in these threads the women just resort to calling a man hateful and sexist instead of actully discussing the issue.

[LiveWell]

Why is it that every time a man tells it like it is he is called hateful? It seems that in these threads the women just resort to calling a man hateful and sexist instead of actully discussing the issue.

 

Woggle maybe that's just how some of them (not all) roll.

 

What's absolutely hilarious in the midst of it is that it turns out sally's FWB (now husband) was actually her boyfriend all along.

[D-Lish]

No, the woman's character is not the only one that should be scrutinized. However, this is a thread about WOMEN who are in FWBs. This happens in every thread where someone asks about some potentially questionable behavior on the part of a woman. Every woman chimes in with "hey guys do it too!!!" If we're discussing women, that interjection is meaningless, and is also needlessly combative.

 

 

How is what I said needlessly combative when the initial post is designed to be incredibly antagonistic? You cannot have a healthy debate about men sleeping with women in a fwb situation and not bring up men, or exclude them from culpability or affect.

 

The question INVITES a combative debate. "Is a woman's moral standing compromised if she engages in sex outside of a relationship"? Depends whom you ask obviously.

[LiveWell]

Why would I refer to my brother and sister in law as FWB's or f buddies when they are married people? I'm sure after 17 years they would probably get a kick out of it if I did.

 

Stay on point please.

[MrNate]

Why is a woman with sexual experience bad thing? And why does the fact that she may have a few outside-relationship encounters make her wrong or likely to cheat? I just don't understand. I love women who like sex. And besides, won't they know how to lay it on you (quite well) from all the 'practice'?

 

I'm really trying to find a downside here, and I'm coming up a tad short.

 

I believe perfectly rational, emotionally stable women are capable of having casual sex, and being amazingly loyal when they're in relationships. I don't see them as being defective or inferior in the slightest.

[stillafool]

that's the problem. some women are getting it twisted by thinking him sexing her on a REGULAR basis means we are in a relationship.

 

 

 

Are we reading the same thread? The above is not what I'm getting from this thread but the complete opposite.

[Woggle]

Why is a woman with sexual experience bad thing? And why does the fact that she may have a few outside-relationship encounters make her wrong or likely to cheat? I just don't understand. I love women who like sex. And besides, won't they know how to lay it on you (quite well) from all the 'practice'?

 

I'm really trying to find a downside here, and I'm coming up a tad short.

 

I believe perfectly rational, emotionally stable women are capable of having casual sex, and being amazingly loyal when they're in relationships. I don't see them as being defective or inferior in the slightest.

 

You have a lot to learn.

[stillafool]

Stay on point please.

 

I am on point. Why don't you get "on point" and answer how you met your wife, courted her, and how long did it take you to ask her to marry you?

[LiveWell]

How is what I said needlessly combative when the initial post is designed to be incredibly antagonistic?

I really don't think he was specifically referring to anything you posted, that may be an artifact of how the posts ended up being sequenced in the thread.

 

 

 

You cannot have a healthy debate about men sleeping with women in a fwb situation and not bring up men, or exclude them from culpability or affect.

 

I totally agree but as of yet we have not actually been given an example of an authentic FWB relationship, actually being defended by a woman who participated in it.

 

The problem seems to be that many of the ladies are defending in the abstract the notion of FWBs as being some kind of equalizer for women, but when you actually try to analyze whether they participated in a real FWB in their own lives, either they didn't, or if they did, the outcome was not particularly a pleasant one, and so the practice was discontinued.

 

I really don't think that the women here believe that FWBs are such a great deal for women, they just feel they have to stake that position for argument's sake, I don't know why? To be hip, or politically correct, or what?

 

The question INVITES a combative debate. "Is a woman's moral standing compromised if she engages in sex outside of a relationship"? Depends whom you ask obviously.

 

First we have to find a woman who actually participated in a real FWB, not simply women who participated in various forms or levels of dating relationships which had a sexual component.

 

A ONS is not an FWB. Casual sex with a non-exclusive boyfriend is not an FWB. A casual social/sexual relationship in which one or the other of the parties pursues the other to make it something more and eventually leading to marriage is not an FWB.

 

So dlish, what's your perception of what an FWB? Did you ever actually participate in a real one? And if so--what are your observations of same?

[LiveWell]

I am on point. Why don't you get "on point" and answer how you met your wife, courted her, and how long did it take you to ask her to marry you?

 

No, you're going off point again, IMO.

 

Specifically right now you're inquiring into my personal relationship(s). Sorry, I'll have to call "foul." My personal relationship(s) are only relevant to a discussion topic, including this one, to the extent I try to make an argument or take a position based on it/them.

 

Tons of people seem to like to argue that way, probably because their relationship is what they know best. However I try to avoid arguing that way, simply because it's sort of pointless for me to present my personal situation as having some sort of general applicability, because all that will happen is that you will try to personally attack irrelevant details of my relationship.

 

Which of course is precisely why you asked the question. You know that, I know that, everyone reading knows that. You didn't ask about my personal life in order to gain understanding of the discussion issue, you asked about it as a tactical maneuver with the intention of finding something upon which to launch yet another personal/ad hominem attack.

 

Obvious. Transparent.

 

Try again. Try better.

 

Stay on point.

[LiveWell]

I believe perfectly rational, emotionally stable women are capable of having casual sex, and being amazingly loyal when they're in relationships.

 

 

At the same time?

[GoodOnPaper]

Why is a woman with sexual experience bad thing? And why does the fact that she may have a few outside-relationship encounters make her wrong or likely to cheat? I just don't understand. I love women who like sex. And besides, won't they know how to lay it on you (quite well) from all the 'practice'?

 

I'm really trying to find a downside here, and I'm coming up a tad short.

 

I believe perfectly rational, emotionally stable women are capable of having casual sex, and being amazingly loyal when they're in relationships. I don't see them as being defective or inferior in the slightest.

 

In theory, you are absolutely right, but once we guys factor our own experiences and insecurities into the mix, some wildly different points of view can result. Mine comes from the fact that I was never able to attract anyone for casual sex -- something I'm rather embarrassed about. So in starting a relationship with a woman with a significant amount of casual sex in her history, there would be a tremendous power imbalance from the very start. That would be the issue for me -- nothing about her being defective or inferior.

[flying]

 

I'd say the women in this thread have been less reasonable though. LiveWell is presenting his thoughts in a logical and emotionally neutral manner. Most of the women that have responded to him have resorted to ad-hominem attacks and denigrated his opinions as worthless just because they disagree with them. There's a lot of unnecessary combativeness in this thread, and it for the most part is coming from female posters this time.

 

Is that right?

 

I'd say LiveWell is more presenting his thoughts in this way:

 

I win.

 

I think that says it all, really.

 

Interested in discussion? Not so much.

 

I think that when a person chooses to define her situation as FWB, then that's really up to her. It's not "logical" to insist that she's lying/wrong/misguided/whatever about it. It's just about wanting to bludgeon someone with your opinion and present it as fact. Logic doesn't even enter into it. This is all just so much silliness. Why does it matter so much that he redefine her relationship for her? What difference does it make to him?

 

I think some posters just really get caught up in "winning" an argument, not in trying to reach deeper understanding. And then they try to pretend that those who hold their own opinions are being illogical or are straying from the topic. After they went there first, of course. Classic.

 

Now, it's just my opinion, but what I see is a whole lot of hot air in these posts. Storm and fury, signifying nothing.

[sally4sara]

A bunch of crap

 

So you've never gone anywhere with a female who was not related to you without it being a date? Is this how you get dates? you go somewhere with a woman and then later tell her it was a date and she is now your GF?

 

Here, I'll break it down since you seem to either be determined to be as dense as humanly possible or are actually really bad with reading comprehension.

I wanted to go to the ribfest. I asked my best friend, but she was working. I asked my brother that morning but he already had plans. It was my son's weekend with his dad so I couldn't just take him.

The day before was another friend's wedding and I'd taken the guy who was the roomate of my now husband. I'd dumped a guy I had been seeing for almost a year about two weeks prior to the wedding so I needed a date and asked the roomate guy to go as friends. I didn't want to the roomate guy to something the very next and have him get confused about why I'd taken him to the wedding. Since we'd dated a few times about a year prior, I had reason to worry he might get confused about things. I asked numerous other people only to find out they were not available. I called the ex roomate anyway as a last ditch effort and my husband answered the phone. His roomate was not home. So I asked HIM if he wanted to go. Like I said, I'd known him for about a year but not well. I'd gotten to know him a bit better over the two months leading up to the ribfest and he didn't seem to be the jerk I'd been told he was. He agreed to go. I bought a rack of ribs that we split.

 

We hung out all day. He asked if I wanted to go back and watch a movie. On the way I stopped into a carry out to grab some beers. I remember thinking, "should I get drunk around this guy?". Because I was single and only had to answer to myself, I decided that if it went there, it wasn't the end of the world.

I was 29 and he was 24 so where you get the "cougar" term I have no idea other than that YOU want to argue every damn point anyone makes and try to see everything in the most tasteless light possible while accusing ME of denigrating people.

 

It went there and I figured we'd still hang out sometimes, but I had no designs on him. He started showing up at my place and wanting more time from me. It neither delighted nor bothered me. I'd heard from others that his ex GF was saying she was going to try to get back with him once she came back from Europe. A few days later, he told me he had to go pick up a friend from the airport. I knew the friend was actually his ex GF. I also figured I wouldn't hear from him much after that. I didn't even let him know I knew it was not simply just some friend he was picking up at the airport. So when he showed up at my place that night I asked him what he was doing on my porch.

 

"Don't you have some catching up with your friend you should be doing?"

 

And I shut the door. It was really not a big deal, other than he felt he needed to hide who he was picking up from the airport from me. So he went around to the kitchen door and asked if he could come in and explain. I heard him out. Told him I didn't care for lying but if he could be more honest we could stay friends. And we did. Never stopped being friends. I never asked him for exclusivity. We did discuss whether or not the other wanted to be made aware of it if we slept with someone else and decided that while it was fine, it would be best to know if each other did become sexually involved with someone else.

 

I didn't become sexually involved with anyone else. He did once; a ONS. Still not a big deal to me. I went out on many dates, but meh, no one I really had interest in for anything. During that time I'd worry he was wanting more than I cared to give because he only lived a block away and was always coming over.

 

There. Just for you, I rehashed the first 4 months of my current relationship that was exactly what I consider a FWB situation. I made no claims on him and he made none on me. We didn't get upset about dates with others or what not because we were just FRIENDS who frequently had sex. More than what is typical for me, but hey like I said- he lived one block away.

Edited October 28, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[stillafool]

No, you're going off point again, IMO.

 

Specifically right now you're inquiring into my personal relationship(s). Sorry, I'll have to call "foul." My personal relationship(s) are only relevant to a discussion topic, including this one, to the extent I try to make an argument or take a position based on it/them.

 

Tons of people seem to like to argue that way, probably because their relationship is what they know best. However I try to avoid arguing that way, simply because it's sort of pointless for me to present my personal situation as having some sort of general applicability, because all that will happen is that you will try to personally attack irrelevant details of my relationship.

 

Which of course is precisely why you asked the question. You know that, I know that, everyone reading knows that. You didn't ask about my personal life in order to gain understanding of the discussion issue, you asked about it as a tactical maneuver with the intention of finding something upon which to launch yet another personal/ad hominem attack.

 

Obvious. Transparent.

 

Try again. Try better.

 

Stay on point.

 

 

:DAs figured, you have no relationship but yet you are an expert.

[TheBigQuestion]

 

 

Yes, you did and your prize in an empty bed and the flickering light cast by pornographic images from your monitor. Have fun with that.

 

Speaking of being unnecessarily combative, here's a prime example.

[TheBigQuestion]

Why is a woman with sexual experience bad thing? And why does the fact that she may have a few outside-relationship encounters make her wrong or likely to cheat? I just don't understand. I love women who like sex. And besides, won't they know how to lay it on you (quite well) from all the 'practice'?

 

I'm really trying to find a downside here, and I'm coming up a tad short.

 

I believe perfectly rational, emotionally stable women are capable of having casual sex, and being amazingly loyal when they're in relationships. I don't see them as being defective or inferior in the slightest.

 

I'm mostly in agreement here. I'm not nearly as confident as you are that people who make a habit out of casual sex are nearly as good at commitment relationship as those who are more selective. However, I haven't had nearly enough experience with enough women so I'm in no position to decide one way or the other.