Guys, do you respect women who have fbuddy relationships? Is that a "low-grade"chic?

[A O]

^ ^ ^

Could be too. But more than likely if he's giving the indication that he's mostly interested in one thing only - sex - chances are more likely that this will be unacceptable behavior to women than welcomed behavior.

 

 

.

[sally4sara]

but just because after a time we don't really have any need to prove our ability to ride a well-used bicycle.

 

I see nothing wrong with wanting, for a serious relationship, someone who is similar in attitude concerning sex.

 

The problem is that many of the men who would look down on a woman for having casual sex, would also Jump at the chance to BE the well used bicycle if they were able to. Except they wouldn't use such a term as "well used bicycle" to describe themselves and their actions. They would instead consider themselves a manly success that other men would admire.

 

I haven't been on this site in a while, but I read a thread where the guy was upset with his GF for having had group sex in the past, but was not interested in it anymore. He admitted he wished, and had often fantasized, to participate in group sex. But he was also questioning his GF's integrity and called her derogatory names for having experienced what he would have gleefully jumped at - if only he had the chance.

 

This is where the frustration comes in. When a woman gets looked down on by a guy for doing something he would absolutely never refrain from doing if he had the chance. and then, if anyone gave him the fish eye for it he would likely just excuse himself.

"Of course I didn't turn it down - I'm a man after all".

 

How convenient an excuse that is.

[donnamaybe]

^ ^ ^

Could be too. But more than likely if he's giving the indication that he's mostly interested in one thing only - sex - chances are more likely that this will be unacceptable behavior to women than welcomed behavior.

 

 

.

Unless the gal only wants to use him for sex too.

 

See, that's how I felt when I got into that FWB situation. Not that I felt I was "using" him, because I was quite honest, but the only use I had for men at that time, outside of a mere friendship, was for their bodies. And I went awhile without, because I didn't want to just f any random guy or another. I mistakenly thought it would be a good solution because we knew each other and were friends, we both said we didn't want a R, and I didn't have to worry about where he'd been, if you know what I mean. We were satisfying only each other. Unfortunately, now I know better than to think someone won't invariably get hurt.

[Woggle]

I see nothing wrong with wanting, for a serious relationship, someone who is similar in attitude concerning sex.

 

The problem is that many of the men who would look down on a woman for having casual sex, would also Jump at the chance to BE the well used bicycle if they were able to. Except they wouldn't use such a term as "well used bicycle" to describe themselves and their actions. They would instead consider themselves a manly success that other men would admire.

 

I haven't been on this site in a while, but I read a thread where the guy was upset with his GF for having had group sex in the past, but was not interested in it anymore. He admitted he wished, and had often fantasized, to participate in group sex. But he was also questioning his GF's integrity and called her derogatory names for having experienced what he would have gleefully jumped at - if only he had the chance.

 

This is where the frustration comes in. When a woman gets looked down on by a guy for doing something he would absolutely never refrain from doing if he had the chance. and then, if anyone gave him the fish eye for it he would likely just excuse himself.

"Of course I didn't turn it down - I'm a man after all".

 

How convenient an excuse that is.

 

 

This I understand. I said that a woman should use the same standards when it comes to men. Men who feel it is natural for men to use people as toys and wrong for women are wrong but that is not how I feel. I feel it is wrong both ways and I am not talking about just casual sex. I don't judge a woman for having a hook up or a threesome back in the day but a pattern of sexual promiscuity while running away from the slightest hint of emotional closeness is a red flag.

 

Also Lamaman3 is a PUA who gets his information out of a book and thinks he knows everything. It is obvious he has not had much real life experience and nothing teaches like actual life. Let's hear him talk after having a nasty divorce under his belt and being chewed up and spit by a sexually free woman who decided to give the benefit of the doubt to. If you notice almost all the man in this thread who have my point of view have learned it the hard way through actual life experience.

[sally4sara]

This I understand. I said that a woman should use the same standards when it comes to men. Men who feel it is natural for men to use people as toys and wrong for women are wrong but that is not how I feel. I feel it is wrong both ways and I am not talking about just casual sex. I don't judge a woman for having a hook up or a threesome back in the day but a pattern of sexual promiscuity while running away from the slightest hint of emotional closeness is a red flag.

 

Also Lamaman3 is a PUA who gets his information out of a book and thinks he knows everything. It is obvious he has not had much real life experience and nothing teaches like actual life. Let's hear him talk after having a nasty divorce under his belt and being chewed up and spit by a sexually free woman who decided to give the benefit of the doubt to. If you notice almost all the man in this thread who have my point of view have learned it the hard way through actual life experience.

 

To be honest Woggle, I agree with only some of what Lamaman posted. He is correct in that women will avoid men who talk trash on female sexuality. You speak often about your past experiences. One of my own is that the men I've met who talk trash on women concerning sex, don't just limit it to a woman's sexuality. I've found that it bleeds into every aspect of their attitude concerning women entirely. How they should dress, if they should go out anywhere without a man in tow to monitor their behavior, what jobs they should have, wearing make up or continuing to fix their hair and workout after finding a mate because doing so meant they were still advertising to other men.

 

But the entirety of what he shared about women not being honest about their sexual nature or past experiences - I don't agree with at all. I'm not saying anyone should write up a summery of their sexual past to take on a first date. But if asked, I'm not going to lie about ****. And I don't think I should have to. I haven't had the sexual experiences I'd had just to later turn around and be ashamed of them. And I wouldn't want to be with someone who would expect me to be ashamed so I see no sense in lying about it.

 

This is why I am not bothered every time I hear a guy speak against a woman's sexual history. If he has limited his own experiences because it was in line with his own views on integrity and sex - of course he will want a woman who has done the same. If I've had more experiences than him or a different view of what is acceptable sexually, but I lie about it so he will want to continue seeing me, the relationship is not longer based on compatibility and will go sour later due to it. Why lie and waste each others time?

 

Its only when the guy has just as much, if not more sexual experience and is just as casual if not more than myself about what he will or won't do sexually, that it angers me to hear him consider me "low grade" over my own history. I'm still not willing to lie to him about it though. To me that is allowing the judgment of others to alter your own standards. If that is the case - did you ever have any standards to begin with?

[Woggle]

To me it is more about attitude then actual sex. Many times I have heard a woman say that women have the right to cheat on and betray a man because she is expressing her sexuality and now it is time for women to give men a taste of our own medicine. I heard it from my ex, my mother, coworkers and various other women and all these women also strongly believe in the sexual empowerment stuff. From what I experience this female sexual freedom stuff, cheating and misandry tend to go hand in hand and judging from this thread I know a lot of men have the same experience. I got told all the time I was trying to control my ex's sexuality because I wanted an honest and faithful wife.

[sally4sara]

To me it is more about attitude then actual sex. Many times I have heard a woman say that women have the right to cheat on and betray a man because she is expressing her sexuality and now it is time for women to give men a taste of our own medicine. I heard it from my ex, my mother, coworkers and various other women and all these women also strongly believe in the sexual empowerment stuff. From what I experience this female sexual freedom stuff, cheating and misandry tend to go hand in hand and judging from this thread I know a lot of men have the same experience. I got told all the time I was trying to control my ex's sexuality because I wanted an honest and faithful wife.

 

That is just stupidity if they really think that way Woggle.

Some guy(s) somewhere at some point cheated and betrayed. Yes I know it happens. So now I'm suppose to sleep with a bunch of men I don't value in anyway just to get revenge on guy(s) who did nothing to me? Pffft! No thanks. I don't have any interest in having sex for such an effed up reason.

[Woggle]

I agree. There is a difference between this and a woman that enjoys sex.

[sally4sara]

I agree. There is a difference between this and a woman that enjoys sex.

 

Geez! I can't even wrap my head around it. Can't they see that what they are doing is the epitome of letting men control their sexuality? They are not having sex because they WANT to; they are having sex as a reaction to something they don't like.

 

And then what? They punish men by giving them an orgasm?!? I can't imagine these women you've known get much out of the sex for themselves if the act is fueled by hatred and revenge.

[Untouchable_Fire]

That is just stupidity if they really think that way Woggle.

Some guy(s) somewhere at some point cheated and betrayed. Yes I know it happens. So now I'm suppose to sleep with a bunch of men I don't value in anyway just to get revenge on guy(s) who did nothing to me? Pffft! No thanks. I don't have any interest in having sex for such an effed up reason.

 

If that is the case, then as a nation we are drowning in stupidity.

 

Bottom line is that whatever silly rationalization they may give... the behavior is emotion based.

[sally4sara]

If that is the case, then as a nation we are drowning in stupidity.

 

Bottom line is that whatever silly rationalization they may give... the behavior is emotion based.

 

Most behavior, regardless of if the behavior is from a man or a woman, is emotion based. We are emotional creatures. So I'm unclear of what you're trying to say.

[Untouchable_Fire]

According to your logic, homosexuals should be considered diseased or not right.

What you are missing is the fact that sexual selectivity dosent always mean what YOU would like it to mean. Many times, evolution would have a woman sleep with the most dominant man and the man capable of giving her the best chances for her son to pass on his offspring - in other words, a dominant man who is capable of attracting many women. Especially if she is ovulating. It dosent necesarilly mean she wants the guy who loves her the most. Shell always have guys who love her - perhaps rarer is a man who can dominate her and lead her.

 

First, homosexuality has always been somewhat of a mystery to evolutionary biologists. It is expressed in animals as well as humans. The most recent theory I've read... which makes a TON of sense is that having a homosexual man in your family actually increases the survivability of related offspring.

 

 

Again, brilliant post. It's really refreshing to read that from a man (I'm assuming you are by your username) and fully agree. A couple of the male posters who so billigerently foster these ideas have been proven to be bitter and rather hateful towards women, their views are widespread across these boards, in general, no real woman wants to deal with that kind of bitterness. It manifests itself in other aspects too. So even if a woman is not promiscuous or in/been in an fwb before, they likely will be put off by the bitterness.

I don't judge, I don't necessarily sleep around (I haven't exactly had sex in a year so...) but those that do engage in an f-buddy relationship, that's up to them. I would, with the aforementioned guy And I won't feel down on myself because I know I am only judged by the bitter men and not the men of sound mind, the men of sound mind know such things don't ultimately make or break a person.

 

Just because someone says what you WANT to hear... does not mean he respects you or would treat you well. A strong guy is going to stand up to you and tell you what you don't want to hear. A weak one just meekly agrees with you.

 

faithful is a euphemism for - I'll do everything to make sure you are not allowing any other men access to your vagina because I have this feeling programmed into me from millions of years ago evolution that makes me fear raising another mans child.

The fact that men on here are so FOCUSED on women cheating rather than having their gf's and wives worried about them cheating is reflective of the dynamic of their relationship and who controls it.

 

From a female perspective faithfulness is about keeping the father around to assist in childrearing. In an ancient setting this would be essential for their survival. Similarly her desire for a faithful mate will be from the fear he will leave her alone to raise children with another woman.

 

You are correct that from a male perspective faithfulness is about known paternity, but it's not a "I will do anything" issue. In a natural setting you just walk away, no big deal.

 

Today you pay child support, spousal support, hand over your house, cars, most possessions... you just can't walk away anymore unless your a penniless beggar. Women know this, and it turns feelings that are natural completely upside down. Part of what creates natural attraction for women is the need to KEEP the guy around. When artificial institutions do that for you... it creates unnatural behavior in men, and greatly diminishes that feeling of attraction. Combined with an economic incentive for

 

In such a situation it is very important to find a woman who is trustworthy. I have the ability to be very selective, I suggest other men do the same.

 

Perhaps the difference between us is that your not looking to start a family.

 

He isnt judging your actions - he is saying you shouldnt be judgemental of others (judging your judgementalness?). If you do not want to have sex outside of marriage or whatever he has no problem with that or how you live your life- so he is saying dont have a problem with him if he wants to have a FWB. Thats not you judging each others actions - thats you JUDGING his actions and his opinion that you should mind your own business and worry about yourself.

This is like someone saying "gay sex is evil" and a gay guy responding, "dont judge me" is 2 people each judging each other.

 

So... judging someone's opinion isn't judging? If that's the case find another word for it, because I just got lost in your logic circle. You seem to disagree with my statement and then follow by proving it true.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Untouchable_Fire

[Untouchable_Fire]

Most behavior, regardless of if the behavior is from a man or a woman, is emotion based. We are emotional creatures. So I'm unclear of what you're trying to say.

 

I'm saying that though the idea doesn't make sense to you... regarding the why of this cheating... it doesn't have to be logical to create behavior. It just has to evoke emotion... which this does.

 

In essence... what Woggle is talking about may strike you as so silly nobody could possibly follow that mode of thinking. However, there is an emotion behind that thought, which is much more common, understandable, and is the reason the thought process is used.

[Woggle]

Geez! I can't even wrap my head around it. Can't they see that what they are doing is the epitome of letting men control their sexuality? They are not having sex because they WANT to; they are having sex as a reaction to something they don't like.

 

And then what? They punish men by giving them an orgasm?!? I can't imagine these women you've known get much out of the sex for themselves if the act is fueled by hatred and revenge.

 

It is an act of revenge and while an orgasm does not punish a man what I went through certainly did. I know war vetarans and people coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan who seem less shell shocked than I was after the divorce.

 

It's this idea that a woman is empowering herself by being as cold hearted, conniving and dishonest as possible that man are trying to avoid. Read the book Women's Infidelity to see all of this is connected.

 

What UF says is right about the system making it very easy for a woman to screw a man over so finding one that is trustworthy is a big priority for a man.

[harmfulsweetz]

It is an act of revenge and while an orgasm does not punish a man what I went through certainly did. I know war vetarans and people coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan who seem less shell shocked than I was after the divorce.

 

It's this idea that a woman is empowering herself by being as cold hearted, conniving and dishonest as possible that man are trying to avoid. Read the book Women's Infidelity to see all of this is connected.

 

What UF says is right about the system making it very easy for a woman to screw a man over so finding one that is trustworthy is a big priority for a man.

 

That is fair enough.

 

I agree with the majority of that post, but the point I think most are making is that having had an f-buddy doesn't make you dishonest/untrustworthy/low-grade. It simply doesn't. A person's character makes them that, not what they have done in the past-sexually when they were single.

 

Having an F-buddy doesn't equal promiscuous. Say a woman has an f-buddy for two years, he is the only person she sleeps with but isn't in a committed relationship with him, for those two years. Another woman in the same period of time has five short-term relationships, (or so) which one is more promiscuous? In spite of the fact that they were relationships, it's obviously the woman who had the five right?

 

What I think I'm saying is that ultimately it boils down to misconceptions about f-buddies. Mention the term 'fwb' and instantly people think up words such as 'hoe', 'skank', 'low-grade', 'promiscuous', 'bike'. Those negative connotations harm people's perceptions of such an arrangement, it's not about being dishonest, or a hoe, it's about sex. I agree that if you feel it is wrong on both sides to do it, that's fine, great, whatever, stay true to that, and find someone who agrees to be with.

[alexa137]

I disagree, I have been FWb with someone for 2 yrs now and didnt even cheat on him! when i am with 1 person I dont have sex with anyone else.

but yea I have other guy friends that I talk to or maybe go have a drink or see out or go to the movies, and most likely those guy i would never be interested in having sex with them. b/c i dont find them attractive.

I just cant have sex with someone just to have sex, you have to turn me on and be attractive physically.

i dont consider myself "low grade" simply because I have only slept with 2 guys in the past 5 years and i am 40

[Untouchable_Fire]

I agree with the majority of that post, but the point I think most are making is that having had an f-buddy doesn't make you dishonest/untrustworthy/low-grade. It simply doesn't. A person's character makes them that, not what they have done in the past-sexually when they were single.

 

Having an F-buddy doesn't equal promiscuous. Say a woman has an f-buddy for two years, he is the only person she sleeps with but isn't in a committed relationship with him, for those two years. Another woman in the same period of time has five short-term relationships, (or so) which one is more promiscuous? In spite of the fact that they were relationships, it's obviously the woman who had the five right?

 

I've never argued that FWB = Promiscuous. I don't think Woggle has either.

 

The point from earlier... is that a woman who can't wait while she is "out" of a relationship, is also the kind of woman that can't wait while "in" a relationship. It also shows a willingness to hurt a guys feelings while using him for your own ends. Also the ability to compartmentalize feelings. All these things apply to men as well.

[Woggle]

I've never argued that FWB = Promiscuous. I don't think Woggle has either.

 

The point from earlier... is that a woman who can't wait while she is "out" of a relationship, is also the kind of woman that can't wait while "in" a relationship. It also shows a willingness to hurt a guys feelings while using him for your own ends. Also the ability to compartmentalize feelings. All these things apply to men as well.

 

Exactly. What happens if a man marries a woman like this and he goes away on a business trip for a week? She is out doing some shopping and a good looking man smiles at her and she can sleep with him without ever getting caught. Would she be able to stay faithful in that situation?

[sally4sara]

I've never argued that FWB = Promiscuous. I don't think Woggle has either.

 

The point from earlier... is that a woman who can't wait while she is "out" of a relationship, is also the kind of woman that can't wait while "in" a relationship. It also shows a willingness to hurt a guys feelings while using him for your own ends. Also the ability to compartmentalize feelings. All these things apply to men as well.

 

Girl in FWB situation:

Wait for what?

How does two people doing the same thing together result in harm to one or the guy?

 

So then we have the same girl in a committed relationship:

 

Wait for what?

How does two people doing the same thing together result in harm to one or the guy?

 

Lets take a girl who has not had casual sex:

What is it she is waiting for while in her committed relationships that prevents harm to one or the guy?

 

To me, the only difference in a FWB situation and a committed relationship is actively planning a future together. How does NOT actively planning a future together cause harm to one or the guy?

[sally4sara]

Exactly. What happens if a man marries a woman like this and he goes away on a business trip for a week? She is out doing some shopping and a good looking man smiles at her and she can sleep with him without ever getting caught. Would she be able to stay faithful in that situation?

 

Its as easy as not wearing a bathing suit to work. Your job expects you to follow a dress code even when the boss is gone. If you don't give two squirts about keeping your job, the boss doesn't have to leave for that to become obvious.

[on a learning curve]

The world will agree more, will resonate more with my summation of this situation than yours. This shouldn’t happen if it’s without basis and fallacious. As for the clitoris, oh how I envy that lil fellow. But the barriers to being able to play with that little beauty are far greater, across the spectrum, than the barriers of getting ones hands on a penis. And that is why men are more sexual than women or at the very least - renowned for being so. And that is why, again, we have the situations that I have presented, and why also, we have umpteen threads like this.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that men have more barriers to a woman's body than a woman has to a man's. And, it is for that reason that men are more sexual than women? That they have to work harder than women to "get" sex?

 

But, then in another response, you wrote this:

 

Indeed. Can women be as sexual or even moreso than men, absolutely! Can they do this as readily or easily as men can – no. They need more of a reason than men need. Again, that’s the key difference, put in a slightly different way.

 

So, now men have an easier time "getting" sex than women...colour me confused.

 

What more of a reason do women need? Horniness is not enough? Or, are you going to argue the personality/emotional disorder angle?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Girl in FWB situation:

Wait for what?

How does two people doing the same thing together result in harm to one or the guy?

So then we have the same girl in a committed relationship:

Wait for what?

How does two people doing the same thing together result in harm to one or the guy?

Lets take a girl who has not had casual sex:

What is it she is waiting for while in her committed relationships that prevents harm to one or the guy?

To me, the only difference in a FWB situation and a committed relationship is actively planning a future together. How does NOT actively planning a future together cause harm to one or the guy?

 

It means your just keeping him around until something better comes along. You can't assume that he won't develop feelings for you... sex typically leads to emotional bonding. So, you have to be ready to smash his feelings at some point. What kind of person is Ok with that?

 

I actively avoid situations where I know there is a good chance of hurting someone. That's what good people do.

 

I'm not some college kid with no life experience. I've seen a lot of FWB situations and have rarely seen them end well.

 

Its as easy as not wearing a bathing suit to work. Your job expects you to follow a dress code even when the boss is gone. If you don't give two squirts about keeping your job, the boss doesn't have to leave for that to become obvious.

 

Emotions are not that simple. Sometimes you like your job, sometimes you hate it.

 

If you compartmentalize sex... it's really easy to go on "interviews" without quitting the current job.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that men have more barriers to a woman's body than a woman has to a man's. And, it is for that reason that men are more sexual than women? That they have to work harder than women to "get" sex?

But, then in another response, you wrote this:

So, now men have an easier time "getting" sex than women...colour me confused.

What more of a reason do women need? Horniness is not enough? Or, are you going to argue the personality/emotional disorder angle?

 

Your confused because your reading his statement wrong. I can see that even from what you have selected here... which I assume is a touch out of context.

 

The first quote he is saying men have more barriers to getting sex... given

 

The second quote he is saying women are more selective, thus have more requirements to fulfill before sex takes place.

 

I guess the question you need to ask yourself OLC is... Can sex have consequences? Do those consequences differ based on gender?

[carhill]

If you compartmentalize sex... it's really easy to go on "interviews" without quitting the current job.

Yep, for me, it's the compatibility issue of a person (woman in the case of this thread) having the psychology to compartmentalize sex away from emotional and spiritual intimacy. In the case of the thread topic, that person happens to enjoy most of the sexual power in any encounter she chooses to participate in. If she closely bonds sex and intimacy, there will be inadequate time/interaction to facilitate her sexual style in a random encounter. More time gives her more opportunities to assess her boundaries, responsibilities, and effects of her choices on others. If she easily and seamlessly can separate 'the job' from 'the interview', or, more precisely, her transitory attraction, infatuation, crush, whatever, from her responsibilities and obligations to her committed partner, she's more likely to act on those transitory 'feelings' because there are fewer boundaries in place psychologically, regardless of what might be said to exist cognitively.

 

Note, I would say the same thing for a man, except that he has to think more about how to get sex, if he is an average male. I don't apply a double standard. I would expect a woman to hold me to the same standard as I do her, hence my low numbers of sexual partners and always within committed relationships or marriage.

[on a learning curve]

Your confused because your reading his statement wrong. I can see that even from what you have selected here... which I assume is a touch out of context.

 

The first quote he is saying men have more barriers to getting sex... given

 

The second quote he is saying women are more selective, thus have more requirements to fulfill before sex takes place.

 

I guess the question you need to ask yourself OLC is... Can sex have consequences? Do those consequences differ based on gender?

 

I asked for clarification -that's what people do when they are unsure.

 

Even if (some, most?) men have more barriers to getting sex (which I'm not sure I completely agree with), how does that make men more sexual than women?

 

I think that most women on this thread (our context for this discussion), have made the same point - they would not sleep with a man that they didn't desire. Not sure how that translates to "more selective", but, ok.

 

As far as your questions to me - we both know the answer to both is yes, so not sure what you are geting at there.