Guys, do you respect women who have fbuddy relationships? Is that a "low-grade"chic?

[on a learning curve]

I don't have to, facts are facts

 

What facts? Your facts?

[on a learning curve]

Men certainly get as much flack as women. If Tiger Woods was a woman I honestly a good portion of women would support him and cheer him on for turning the tables.

 

You know that's not true. She'd sooner be stoned in the street.

[Woggle]

You know that's not true. She'd sooner be stoned in the street.

 

Yeah right. In many ways she would become a feminist hero.

[carhill]

'Womanizer' was/is a common word heard in my parents and my generation. 'Watch out for xxxx; he's a womanizer'. XXX was often married too. I see many 'XXX' s in my travels. They're the men who are wearing a wedding band and clearly chatting up only women who are not their wives. They ignore other men. Since I travel over 100K miles a year, I've made a sport of watching them in airports and on airplanes. It's kinda fun guessing which woman will fall for their 'charms', generally indicated by their body language and inane laughter. Perhaps they're mining their next FWB. Clearly, if so, they must respect such women and value them highly, given all the carbon dioxide they throw at them.

[on a learning curve]

Yeah right. In many ways she would become a feminist hero.

 

Woggle, I am genuinely sorry that you seem to have a skewed notion of what feminism is. You're not alone though, so I appreciate your resistance.

 

If nothing else, I'd like you to consider that not all feminists adhere to a "gender war" mentality. Understanding, and solutions to actual daily life issues (for men and women) are really at the forefront of feminist ideology.

[Woggle]

In order to find solutions both sides need to be listened to but more often it seems like women talk at men and we have to listen.

[on a learning curve]

'Womanizer' was/is a common word heard in my parents and my generation. 'Watch out for xxxx; he's a womanizer'. XXX was often married too. I see many 'XXX' s in my travels. They're the men who are wearing a wedding band and clearly chatting up only women who are not their wives. They ignore other men. Since I travel over 100K miles a year, I've made a sport of watching them in airports and on airplanes. It's kinda fun guessing which woman will fall for their 'charms', generally indicated by their body language and inane laughter. Perhaps they're mining their next FWB. Clearly, if so, they must respect such women and value them highly, given all the carbon dioxide they throw at them.

 

And this is a good point. I am marvelled at the vitirol hurled at women who want sex, when that is exactly what (some) men profess to want.

 

Is it self-loathing?

[Surrealist]

'Womanizer' was/is a common word heard in my parents and my generation. 'Watch out for xxxx; he's a womanizer'. XXX was often married too. I see many 'XXX' s in my travels. They're the men who are wearing a wedding band and clearly chatting up only women who are not their wives. They ignore other men. Since I travel over 100K miles a year, I've made a sport of watching them in airports and on airplanes. It's kinda fun guessing which woman will fall for their 'charms', generally indicated by their body language and inane laughter. Perhaps they're mining their next FWB. Clearly, if so, they must respect such women and value them highly, given all the carbon dioxide they throw at them.

 

And this is a good point. I am marvelled at the vitirol hurled at women who want sex, when that is exactly what (some) men profess to want.

 

Is it self-loathing?

 

Nope. The man in this instance is just making friendly chat or banter and has no intention of anything further. If the women are perceiving something different, then that is not the guy's fault. He's just a friendly good hearted bloke. If he really wanted to chat the women up for more, for alternative motives, he would likely remove his wedding band.

[on a learning curve]

In order to find solutions both sides need to be listened to but more often it seems like women talk at men and we have to listen.

 

That's fair.

 

I know that (most) men love women. I also know that men and women communicate differently. It is a matter of allowing a discourse to happen without defensiveness - easy in theory, difficult in practice.

[carhill]

Normally I'd agree, 'bantering' quite a bit myself over the years. Couple things... women respond 'better' when I had a wedding band on. I don't know why. Also, the men I watch, and I watch for it carefully, ignore other men, even their colleagues traveling with them, and focus in on the women. This is the time-honored method of the womanizer. Of course, he's being 'friendly'. Of course, it doesn't 'mean anything'. Of course he's not handing her his business card and inviting her to contact him (actually heard this at ORD this past weekend). It's all innocent. Business. Friendly. Respectable

[on a learning curve]

Nope. The man in this instance is just making friendly chat or banter and has no intention of anything further. If the women are perceiving something different, then that is not the guy's fault. He's just a friendly good hearted bloke. If he really wanted to chat the women up for more, for alternative motives, he would likely remove his wedding band.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Again, if we are talking strictly about FWB relationships, there is no need to hide your relationship status. The point being made over and over, is that the two people involved have an understanding that the relationship is a primarily sexual one.

 

This takes us out of the scope of the original thread topic.

[lamaman3]

This is all really a moot point. Men on this thread judge women but ultimately I can't imagine any really attractive woman being attracted to a man who sits on the internet making post after post judging women's sexuality. So the men here will be arguing with women here about who is right, but ultimately the women here will find companionship and sex partners with a minority of elite attractive and non-judgemental men while the men here will continue to have issues with women.

[A O]

If she dumps him because he wouldn't pay one time, maybe he dodged a bullet and is better off without her. They weren't compatible.

Fair point but not my overall point. Point is that both sexes judge, and that the specific dating/gender/circumstance pool has an influence on how people see things. For instance, a man who doesn't pay is often judged against a very large pool who do. Women who sleep around are often judged against a very large pool who don't. We often judge according to these types of circumstances.

 

If a woman gets into a FWB, she is acknowledging that they are both in it for sex alone. In a relationship, however, it benefits a woman to seek more

We pick the situation that suits us for the time. When sex-only no longer suits women, then men are back navigating the female sexual radar. When men want more than just a good-for-now-girl, then they start looking elsewhere. We are not that much different from each other....although one thing that is reasonably clear here - most women who engage in FWB's were on some level - not ready for a full blown relationship. Bearing this in mind, I can fully understand why people are overly judgmental towards those who participate in them.

 

But as has been mentioned a couple of times beforehand - its repeated behavior, clusters of behavior that folks should be mindful of, not so much a one-off.

 

It depends on the person. Ideally, we would be emotionally stable, but that won't always be the case.

The context was, from memory, she wasn't ready (and a few women here have said something similar) -at that point in time - for a full on relationship. She said she was emotionally stable. I am not too sure based on that line of thought.

I don't know the history of it, but that's an interesting thought. Weren't people just as uncomfortable viewing women as sexual beings during Victorian times? How about the puritans? I'm sure there are plenty of examples.

Possibly, I don't know. I wonder how men were viewed, sexually speaking, back then back then also?

 

Is it really swimming against the tide? You said yourself in the previous paragraph that women are starting to pick up these behaviors that were once dominated by men.

Engaging in primarily sexually based relationships is swimming against the tide - for both genders. For men, its something that many would like but very few are able to achieve. For women, the standard relationship (wanting it to be more than just sex) still remains the same. I can't see that changing anytime soon.

 

 

 

 

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[lamaman3]

Also, the idea that women having sex outside of a relationship means she is disconnecting sex from her emotions is far from the truth. On the contrary, a woman might feel an intense attraction for a man, fantasize about him, feel lustful and even affectionate towards him and act on that - without necessarilly being in a relationship. This is a woman connecting sex with her emotions. A woman who feels all of that but refuses to have sex with a man she feels it towards - because she is holding off to "trade" the sex for something else such as monogamy, the man promising to take her on 2023 dates, promising to meet his parents and making sure the man has stable employment ($$$$) - this to me is a woman who is much more adept at disconnecting sex from her emotions and this to me is the worse candidate for an LTR.

[A O]

In keeping with my general theme – men have never received a free pass for their sexual natures – and never will. The simple fact of the matter is that judging male sexuality is so ingrained in us that we fail to realize that we’ve even done it. Judging ‘mainstream’ female sexuality in a ‘negative’ sense, however, is still a relatively new concept that most people have yet to correctly get their head around.

I'm not sure what you mean by this post. Curious as to how you have come to such conclusions.How is judging male sexuality ingrained in us? And, how is that relevant to a discussion about FWB anyway, given that the nature of the relationship is understood?

.

Long story short – sex is bad, and it doesn’t matter if you’re religious or not, sex is frowned upon by all and thinking similar to this is ingrained in all of us from a very young age. And who is more inclined to want sex – boys/men of course. So girls are brought up understanding this fact and being wary of it and boys are brought up basically apologizing for their sexual urges.

 

So, fast forwarding a few years to teenage/adult years when a guy comes on too strong or even worse signals that he only wants one thing from a woman – sex, then most women will kick this type to the curb. Some women will simply think that he’s not the type for them. Others will be a lot more colourful in their thinking in regards to his behavior. Either/or, one thing is happening – they have judged his sexuality and have deemed it to be unacceptable to them. Now this is a situation that can start relatively early and have no end date to it. But few, if any women ever care to think that they’ve just judged a man’s sexuality, more often than not in a negative sense at that. Women simply don’t think that way. They just see a guy who’s reverted to type. They’ve dodged a bullet in their eyes, not formed a negative judgment of a person’s sexuality. And as I’ve said before, this behavior starts so early that most women are simply unaware of it. They tend to only become aware of judgmental behavior when they themselves start acting in a manner similar to the known male type.

 

How does this fit in with this thread. Simple, it’s all about judgment. Men judge female sexuality. Absolutely no surprises there. But guess what – guess whose been judging men too, but rarely realizes it!

 

 

 

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[on a learning curve]

This is all really a moot point. Men on this thread judge women but ultimately I can't imagine any really attractive woman being attracted to a man who sits on the internet making post after post judging women's sexuality. So the men here will be arguing with women here about who is right, but ultimately the women here will find companionship and sex partners with a minority of elite attractive and non-judgemental men while the men here will continue to have issues with women.

 

Moot point, or not.

[Woggle]

This is all really a moot point. Men on this thread judge women but ultimately I can't imagine any really attractive woman being attracted to a man who sits on the internet making post after post judging women's sexuality. So the men here will be arguing with women here about who is right, but ultimately the women here will find companionship and sex partners with a minority of elite attractive and non-judgemental men while the men here will continue to have issues with women.

 

I have been married twice and never had any problem attracting women. I came to my conclusions because of experience.

[on a learning curve]

Long story short – sex is bad, and it doesn’t matter if you’re religious or not, sex is frowned upon by all and thinking similar to this is ingrained in all of us from a very young age. And who is more inclined to want sex – boys/men of course. So girls are brought up understanding this fact and being wary of it and boys are brought up basically apologizing for their sexual urges.

 

So, fast forwarding a few years to teenage/adult years when a guy comes on too strong or even worse signals that he only wants one thing from a woman – sex, then most women will kick this type to the curb. Some women will simply think that he’s not the type for them. Others will be a lot more colourful in their thinking in regards to his behavior. Either/or, one thing is happening – they have judged his sexuality and have deemed it to be unacceptable to them. Now this is a situation that can start relatively early and have no end date to it. But few, if any women ever care to think that they’ve just judged a man’s sexuality, more often than not in a negative sense at that. Women simply don’t think that way. They just see a guy who’s reverted to type. They’ve dodged a bullet in their eyes, not formed a negative judgment of a person’s sexuality. And as I’ve said before, this behavior starts so early that most women are simply unaware of it. They tend to only become aware of judgmental behavior when they themselves start acting in a manner similar to the known male type.

 

How does this fit in with this thread. Simple, it’s all about judgment. Men judge female sexuality. Absolutely no surprises there. But guess what – guess whose been judging men too, but rarely realizes it!

 

 

 

.

 

Sex is bad - fallacy# one

 

boys/men want sex more than girls/women - fallacy #two

 

The rest of your post follows suit. Not a rational argument.

[lamaman3]

I dont have time to read through the entire thread so I'm not really sure what your conclusions are, Id be happy to comment on them if you let me know. I will say however, that no matter how good you are at attracting women - I can guarantee that the process of attracting them did not include statements condemning women who have certain types of sexual relationships as "sluts, low status" or whatever else. This kind of thing will always turn women off as you are actually telling them from the get go not to open up to you completely lest they be judged. The only exception is a woman who is looking to get married and have a guy make a commitment to her - she will eat this kind of attitude up because it reflects a certain insecurity that she can play on. All she has to do is feign the innocent vulnerable girl who the big bad evil men are trying to pray on sexually, and all she wants sexually is a nice provider, protector who will marry her and bring home the bacon and the white picket fence - and this is what really turns her on (NOT lol).

 

Of course a woman like that will have had sexually explicit thoughts and almost definitely experiences that she is witholding from you. All the women on this thread know what Im talking about and can vouch for this. When a woman senses that you have Maddonna/Whore complex (IE categorizing a woman as a madonna or a whore based on her sexual experiences rather than viewing them all as human beings with the same range of human sexual urges as any other living thing on this planet) they will make sure you NEVER find out about their unconventional sexual experiences and desires. This is why this is all a moot point - because judgemental/insecure guys have existed forever and women have learned how to deal with it - by being VERY VERY discrete as they know this Madonna ideal you set up for them is simply a role that they play and is not anything that any woman is inherently (unless she has some sexual dysfunction)

[A O]

What you happen to think about him is not important. I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by "culturally speaking" when you're simply discussing your opinion. I personally don't care about George Clooney either, but that doesn't take away from his status as cultural icon. Stay on topic.

First off, I’m simply responding to a point of yours. If you think I’ve strayed off topic then you shouldn’t have brought this point up in the first place. Otherwise, this fellow is what anyone wishes him to be, so to me, he’s no icon or ideal of any sort. He’s simply an actor.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

No worries. For every action there’s a consequence. People like Tiger Woods and men in general are not exempt. Simple as that.

 

There is a difference between "I would like to subjectively judge this person as to whether or not I personally would like to have sex with him or her" and "This woman is objectively a slut, because she has a FWB." I'm not even going to go into how "player" is a far more positively-spun term for men. I'm sure you can come with an edge case for an unfavorable man, but this is all beside the point.

Sorry no difference. The proof is in the pudding. Male sexuality is constantly judged, arguably more negatively and often than female sexuality. If a man doesn’t play his cards right "sexually speaking" then he is not suitable dating/relationship material. Cut it anyway you like, this is no different to a woman who sleeps around. As for the term ‘player’ I have yet to see that term being uttered in a positive manner by a woman. Many men may aspire to be like this, but their actions do neither gender any good in the long term. Get that – both sexes invariably suffer from the actions of these types. Not unlike how our insurance premiums rise because of the actions of others. There is a price to pay for every interaction and men pay this price, in one form or another too.

 

Men who have multiple partners are far less likely to be seen as unfavorable than women are.

I can't argue against that.

 

But just to reiterate my main point again - male sexuality is not free of negative judgment.

 

I got this from how most folk interpret the phrase – they see it as wanting a whore in the bedroom and a (prim n proper) lady outside of it. You yourself did not use the term in accordance with how you’re defining it now.

No, you don't understand. It's a specific terminology in feminist rhetoric. Look it up. "Madonna/Whore". I already tried explaining it to you, but it didn't seem to get through

Sorry, but you didn’t use it in this specific form and most people don’t either. Most people use it as how I described it.

 

And the number of sex partners? Can you identify for me a cultural equivalent of the male example I have given in George Clooney, for whom a large number of sex partners is seen as expected and even attractive? You don't seem to be reading what I'm writing. Instead, you are stubbornly repeating your own ideas, with no evidence and no coherent response to my challenges. If you want to talk about what everyone does, be ready to show examples of everyone doing it. So far you have shown nothing.

I’ve given my interpretation of an idea or ideal that “you” have presented. Because it doesn’t gel with your way of thinking doesn’t mean I’m being stubborn or whatever else you’re suggesting. I simply see things differently, henceforth cannot carry on with your line of reasoning. There is no crime in that, no need to play silly personal games. I simply have a different view.

 

 

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[on a learning curve]

Also, the idea that women having sex outside of a relationship means she is disconnecting sex from her emotions is far from the truth. On the contrary, a woman might feel an intense attraction for a man, fantasize about him, feel lustful and even affectionate towards him and act on that - without necessarilly being in a relationship. This is a woman connecting sex with her emotions. A woman who feels all of that but refuses to have sex with a man she feels it towards - because she is holding off to "trade" the sex for something else such as monogamy, the man promising to take her on 2023 dates, promising to meet his parents and making sure the man has stable employment ($$$$) - this to me is a woman who is much more adept at disconnecting sex from her emotions and this to me is the worse candidate for an LTR.

 

Brilliant post.

[A O]

Sex is bad - fallacy# one

It doesn't matter what it is. What matters is whether this type of thought process/behavior is instigated, is common place among people. Simple answer is - you bet it is. The term is probably too general, maybe too harsh but most people get the message I'm sure. Sex or sexual urges are discouraged, usually greatly so especially among the young. The basis for my argument starts in ones formative years.

 

boys/men want sex more than girls/women - fallacy #two

Wrong and the huge amount of testosterone that flows through men is just one reason why.

 

The rest of your post follows suit. Not a rational argument.

Thems the breaks. But I'm sure you can easily justify your own views. I look forward to them.

 

 

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[Woggle]

My conclusion is that women who have prolonged promiscuity in general tend to not make good relationship partners. It actually has more to do with their attitude than it does the act of sex. They tend to find relationships and commitment in general to be confining and the first attractive man that smiles at them they are ready to sleep with behind your back. Live a little bit in this world and see reality before you call me close minded.

[lamaman3]

AO - I cant understand all this mental masturbation.

 

Women judge male sexuality so now we men are going to judge female sexuality??

 

Where in the world does that get you?

 

When you see a beautiful woman - ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS ASIDE, you would not rather be the man sleeping with her than the man judging her as low quality because she is sleeping with another man?? YES or NO. Here is a hint: The men "judging" her are the ones she chose not to sleep with.

 

Yes culturally male sexuality is bashed, but if this leaves you bitter than you have some work to do in understanding women and how they become attracted. The fact is that sexual mating game is not something where we have 50% men and 50% women and it all works out that everyone pares up with one person and lives happily ever after. The fact of the matter is that a minority of men are truly attractive to women. These men, perhaps 20%, will have an unparalleled sexual access to the vast majority of women because they are confident and attractive - and the rest of the men get frustrated - why? Because men are built to want to spread their seed to just about anything remotely physically attractive - women are much more selective because they need to pic the best man to impregnate them, not just mate with as many as possible which is what men are programmed to do.

 

And when a woman does find that high value attractive male - you can bet that she is going to want sex as much if not more than the man - again, Ill bet that every single woman on this thread is going to vouch for that. No one judges George Clooney's sexuality or denigrates it. Because the fact of the matter is that every woman fantasizes about George Clooney having hot animalistic sex with her - dosent matter if shes married or has a boyfriend. So the men that are the most bitter about being judged for wanting sex and judge women in return are the ones on the short end of the stick here - dont be that man - be the George Clooney.

[lamaman3]

My conclusion is that women who have prolonged promiscuity in general tend to not make good relationship partners. It actually has more to do with their attitude than it does the act of sex. They tend to find relationships and commitment in general to be confining and the first attractive man that smiles at them they are ready to sleep with behind your back. Live a little bit in this world and see reality before you call me close minded.

 

"prolonged promiscuity" is a male construct. It stems from the M/W complex - you are either a good girl or a promiscuous one like the one I watch on porno movies on my computer. Women do not think in those terms. They are able to live much more in the moment instead of trying to put every relationship into a logical construct.

 

Women go by how they feel. They are attracted to a man, they can act on it. If he does something that makes her feel bad, they forget about it. Just like you. If a woman started trying to categorize you based on when you had sex after which date after what commitment after what was said etc etc instead of just assuming that you kissed a girl when you were attracted and had the opportunity - then you would realize how ridiculous this categorization is.