Guys, do you respect women who have fbuddy relationships? Is that a "low-grade"chic?

[carhill]

So you agree with me that men should not consider women like this to be relationship material?

 

Wogs, watch the verbiage carefully...

 

My question would be why do these men pick this type of woman in the first place if they no they can't handle her?

 

There's the challenge, carefully couched.

 

Also...

Why don't they go for a less attractive, less outgoing type of female?

 

IME, it is exactly those ladies who, based on whom I've dated and married, tend to have the higher numbers and familiarity with the fwb dynamic. The lowest common denominator is sex and it is a pretty sure-fire way to attract men of all sorts. At minimum, I would opine that lack of attractiveness and promiscuity and/or sexual patterns such as fwb aren't as mutually exclusive as they might seem on the surface. Witness the 'put a bag over her head' pejorative which was used when I was a teen, regarding some young ladies.

 

The main positive of the thread for myself is seeing the differing perspectives on the dynamic and thus expanding understanding of it. Good information

[A O]

Men have more barriers to navigate, or in other words, women are more selective. Correct. Men on the other hand, they want it more hence the barriers they present are less. The 'wanting it more', especially, the sex on the brain’ concept that men are known for (and women not nearly as much), the ease in which men identify any given situation in a sexual sense, relative to women, thanks in no small part to testosterone – the all round attitude that men have towards sex and that most folk, most women have an inherent understanding of (which is usually formed in ones formative years onwards)….all this is why men are more sexual than women and are seen to be so. It’s all baseless to you apparently, but common knowledge to most folk.

 

What women need, more than men evidently – is more of a reason to unleash their sexual urges than men. That speaks for itself.

It's not that it's baseless to me. I understand where the fear comes from, and I am well aware of the historical context from which it has risen. I don't have time to expand on this at the moment, but will do so if you are interested.

This is the gist of my original argument(s) further clarified – the same argument(s) that you wrote off, more than once, beforehand.

 

I simply disagree with you that men are more sexual than women.

That’s fine. There’s a world of difference between disagreement and telling someone that their views are without basis, or in other words – wrong.

 

So, as I've asked once before - what is the basis for your argument?

 

Think about the many ways in which various cultures attempt to restict women's sexuality?

The overwhelming bulk of my experiences and comments are western based. Whether cultures further a field have any relevance to this…we wait to find out.

 

As for your last comment - well sure, perhaps women do need more of a reason to unleash their sexual urges, but hey, given some of the attitudes on this thread - it seems like social suicide not to.

Women are part of the social circle that likes to negatively judge human sexuality also. Other than that, 'needing more of a reason before engaging in sex' is one of the reasons why we’re having this debate in the first place.

 

 

.

.

[stillafool]

So you agree with me that men should not consider women like this to be relationship material? Why are we arguing then?

 

I think men who cannot handle a relationship with women like this should leave these women alone and chose someone else. The same with the woman who cannot handle a so called "alpha male", chose someone else.

[stillafool]

 

 

There's the challenge, carefully couched.

 

Carhill I think that is the challenge for these women also.

 

IME, it is exactly those ladies who, based on whom I've dated and married, tend to have the higher numbers and familiarity with the fwb dynamic.

 

 

This is interesting. For me, in my previous dating life, I always found the more handsome the man the more faithful he seemed to be. Perhaps men should raise their standards if they are dating 'not so attractive' women and are still getting treated poorly. In otherwords, if one thing doesn't seem to be working, try the other.

[stillafool]

I found this post from Taramere on another thread and thought it to be very interesting and some of you may as well:

 

 

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3065198#post3065198

[Woggle]

I see what she is saying but the kind of men who do the best with women actually tend to be hyper macho. They are anything but feminine and gentle.

[on a learning curve]

This is the gist of my original argument(s) further clarified – the same argument(s) that you wrote off, more than once, beforehand.

 

That’s fine. There’s a world of difference between disagreement and telling someone that their views are without basis, or in other words – wrong.

 

So, as I've asked once before - what is the basis for your argument?

 

The overwhelming bulk of my experiences and comments are western based. Whether cultures further a field have any relevance to this…we wait to find out.

 

Women are part of the social circle that likes to negatively judge human sexuality also. Other than that, 'needing more of a reason before engaging in sex' is one of the reasons why we’re having this debate in the first place.

 

 

.

.

 

A O: I think that we are having this discussion for a few reasons, but here's my succinct take.

 

There is a false dichotomy at play here - "men have sex on the brain, fullstop, and do whatever it takes to get a woman in bed" and, "women are emotionally needy and sexually disinterested (for the most part), using sex as a means to garner emotional support.

 

And, that is just silly -from any perspective. Clearly we are all sexual beings and I challenge anyone on this thread, man or woman, to argue that they don't have sexual desires that are based soley on the physical.

 

This is part of the problem as I see it - we need an acknowledgement that sex is primarily physical, and that there is nothing unnatural about that. Sex makes us feel good (at least it should). It shouldn't be about possessing someone, but rather a mutally gratifying experience between two people for the purpose of satisfying one of our basic human needs - to connect with another person.

 

Unfortunatley, social constructs have perverted sex and devalued it. Men demand fidelity from women because they are insecure. Women expect fidelity because they have been brow-beaten into believing that a committed relationship will provide them with the support they (perceive) they need.

[Woggle]

So if I were a secure man I would have let my ex cheat on me? This sounds like the same crap I heard after my divorce.

[on a learning curve]

So if I were a secure man I would have let my ex cheat on me? This sounds like the same crap I heard after my divorce.

 

Woggle: You are deliberatley misunderstanding me. Of course I don't mean that. Relationships are about communication. Some people are better than others at communicating.

[Woggle]

Woggle: You are deliberatley misunderstanding me. Of course I don't mean that. Relationships are about communication. Some people are better than others at communicating.

 

You said that men demand fidelity because we are insecure so according to this I was insecure in my first marriage.

[on a learning curve]

You said that men demand fidelity because we are insecure so according to this I was insecure in my first marriage.

 

Yes, but what I mean by fidelity, is that men demand it from women they have sex with - because they are insecure. I wasn't refering to committed relationships.

[on a learning curve]

A marriage is significantly different than a FWB relationship.

 

There are no promises in a FWB relationship, apart from what is negotiated and negotiated again.

[A O]

A O: I think that we are having this discussion for a few reasons, but here's my succinct take.

What fuels all these types of discussions is ‘difference’ between the genders. We wouldn’t be having them if we saw things the same.

 

There is a false dichotomy at play here - "men have sex on the brain, fullstop, and do whatever it takes to get a woman in bed" and,

This expression is simply a societal view of male behavior. It’s one of many. What brings about this behavior, hence fuels commentary is testosterone – a chemical that men have in abundance compared to women, and fuels men to think about or want to engage in sex far more readily than women.

 

and, "women are emotionally needy and sexually disinterested (for the most part), using sex as a means to garner emotional support.

The sexually disinterested line aside (because few here are arguing this)…it is widely known, and most posters here understand this, that women who engage in excessive sex are likely to have emotional problems. One can debate how ‘likely’ but one can’t refute the claim. Men are not spared from this view either, but it doesn’t have the same sting to it for them because society generally views men as sex obsessed or something akin to this anyway.

 

Clearly we are all sexual beings and I challenge anyone on this thread, man or woman, to argue that they don't have sexual desires that are based soley on the physical

I don’t think many, if any are disputing this claim.

 

This is part of the problem as I see it - we need an acknowledgement that sex is primarily physical, and that there is nothing unnatural about that. Sex makes us feel good (at least it should). It shouldn't be about possessing someone, but rather a mutally gratifying experience between two people for the purpose of satisfying one of our basic human needs - to connect with another person

Wanting to ‘possess’ someone aside, sounds reasonable to me but what it means to us and how it makes us feel doesn’t explain the urge to want it and the consequences thereof, one such being threads like these.

 

Unfortunatley, social constructs have perverted sex and devalued it.

Did mention a societal construct and the age it’s usually introduced from in an earlier post. Perhaps because it wasn’t a female only targeted construct that it came across as without rational basis to you.

 

Men demand fidelity from women because they are insecure. Women expect fidelity because they have been brow-beaten into believing that a committed relationship will provide them with the support they (perceive) they need.

I can go with the insecure claim. It is after all, a way of trying to modify (male) behavior as well as an observation, valid or not. Fidelity otherwise is a demand common to both sexes. The browbeaten claim, interested in knowing where this came from…

 

 

.

[on a learning curve]

What fuels all these types of discussions is ‘difference’ between the genders. We wouldn’t be having them if we saw things the same.

 

This expression is simply a societal view of male behavior. It’s one of many. What brings about this behavior, hence fuels commentary is testosterone – a chemical that men have in abundance compared to women, and fuels men to think about or want to engage in sex far more readily than women.

 

The sexually disinterested line aside (because few here are arguing this)…it is widely known, and most posters here understand this, that women who engage in excessive sex are likely to have emotional problems. One can debate how ‘likely’ but one can’t refute the claim. Men are not spared from this view either, but it doesn’t have the same sting to it for them because society generally views men as sex obsessed or something akin to this anyway.

 

I don’t think many, if any are disputing this claim.

 

Wanting to ‘possess’ someone aside, sounds reasonable to me but what it means to us and how it makes us feel doesn’t explain the urge to want it and the consequences thereof, one such being threads like these.

 

Did mention a societal construct and the age it’s usually introduced from in an earlier post. Perhaps because it wasn’t a female only targeted construct that it came across as without rational basis to you.

 

I can go with the insecure claim. It is after all, a way of trying to modify (male) behavior as well as an observation, valid or not. Fidelity otherwise is a demand common to both sexes. The browbeaten claim, interested in knowing where this came from…

 

 

.

 

Brow beaten - meaning that women have swallowed the nonsense that would dictate she use her vagina as a sticky tape for attracting an engagement ring.

 

It is men's insecurities that fuels this discussion.

[A O]

Brow beaten - meaning that women have swallowed the nonsense that would dictate she use her vagina as a sticky tape for attracting an engagement ring.

And where does this nonsense come from?

 

It is men's insecurities that fuels this discussion.

And where does this insecurity come from?

 

 

.

[on a learning curve]

And where does this nonsense come from?

 

 

And where does this insecurity come from?

 

 

.

 

Funny, I am able to discern real questions from not.

 

I think you are capable of answering those questions for yourself.

[A O]

^ ^ ^ ^

 

The 'browbeating nonsense' as you call it is all unfamiliar to me. I understand that women use their god-given gifts to attract men, but why is it nonsense, or if this isn't the nonsense you're referring to, then what else is it? As for browbeating, what do you mean exactly, where does it come from or who leads it?

 

As for where does all this insecurity come from...what I am trying to get to here, is that insecurity like every other issue here is a byproduct of "difference", which is one of the key themes I've been debating here with you.

 

There you go....same questions, yes they really are questions, with a bit more reasoning attached. Oh, and I'll bear in made how you see types of questioning for the future, chances are, some of yours may not be what they appear to be given what you're suggesting her about mine.

 

 

.

[abouttoloseit]

Hahah this thread is mental and everybody has just been too nice to each other. FFS. Everyone keeps pussyfooting around everything. I'll give you some stupid frigging experience.

 

Someone said that there ARE girls who can have casual sex and then go on to create loving and loyal partners...PFFFT LOL. Nah.

 

WAKE UP.

 

Im not negative or anything, just perhaps realist. Im sorta jumping around the view that...in my old fashioned ideas, why the f*ck should I wine and dine a girl, whom I like, if she's given it up to some dick in a club on the first night they meet? ONS etc...seems pointless. Most guys I know have this pride thing, c'mon guys, who here wants to end up with the girl who f*cked all the guys in town?

 

But by all means, I think guys who do it are just as **** too. They make it worse for everybody

 

My experience with sport f*ckers:

 

Of the two girls that I went out with that I tried to have a serious relationship with, (serious lesson learned) that evntually told me they were part of the whole ONS thing, clubbing and casual sex, turned out to be total f*ckloopy. History of prozac, self harm, absent fathers, emotional problems, mental health hospitalisation, suicide attempts, best friend ex bfs, AND of course FWB!!!!!

 

Now fwb's. This whole thread. LiveWell seemed to be the only guy who constructed will thought out answers, although some were more harsher. But so what, people should grow a pair. A FWB? How empty. How truly empty. The guy is using her for her body, he wont give a fudge. Sher thinks she's getting serviced, but Im sure there's one or two emotions flying around her head whilst that thing is pumping between her legs. Didn't Sally4Sara marry him in the end?

 

Or it could be the other way around. She using him, he thinks they'll both fall for each other. Poor thing.

 

I think (THEREFORE YOU CANNOT ARGUE MY OPINION SO UP YOURS), somebody in the FWB will be wanting more. Im my guess is, from what my crazy ex's have told me about casual sex (ie their need to feel wanted, or feel attractive blah blah blah boring) the girl will want a little more than the guy is willing to give.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I've had enough of crazy women. If she lets on that she used to sport f*ck, ons, have a FWB...I can't see her as long term. But by all means, I'll see her on her level. I'll gladly give her one. And then I'll move on. Adding to the great debate!

 

I'll get bashed for this but I REALLY don't give two small bananas. What I will tell you, is that woman who once asked me why I do not "do" ONS or F*ck buddies, I answered, because it doesn't seem productive.

 

That same woman, is 51 now, ageing fast. 3 failed marriages, countless Boyfriends and abusive step fathers to her daughter...oh and 1 STD. She's still single.

 

(Oh her magic number is/was 56 last time she told me).

 

Enough bitter old me. I just seem to attract all the crazy ho's who pop prozac for their breakfast. (I saw this happen once).

 

God Im bored now. Who want's a f*ck buddy?

[Woggle]

I agree. Us guys who have dealt with enough crazy women know exactly what you are talking about. I feel so lucky that I find a sane and stable woman.

[Surrealist]

Hahah this thread is mental and everybody has just been too nice to each other. FFS. Everyone keeps pussyfooting around everything. I'll give you some stupid frigging experience.

 

Someone said that there ARE girls who can have casual sex and then go on to create loving and loyal partners...PFFFT LOL. Nah.

 

WAKE UP.

 

Im not negative or anything, just perhaps realist. Im sorta jumping around the view that...in my old fashioned ideas, why the f*ck should I wine and dine a girl, whom I like, if she's given it up to some dick in a club on the first night they meet? ONS etc...seems pointless. Most guys I know have this pride thing, c'mon guys, who here wants to end up with the girl who f*cked all the guys in town?

 

But by all means, I think guys who do it are just as **** too. They make it worse for everybody

 

My experience with sport f*ckers:

 

Of the two girls that I went out with that I tried to have a serious relationship with, (serious lesson learned) that evntually told me they were part of the whole ONS thing, clubbing and casual sex, turned out to be total f*ckloopy. History of prozac, self harm, absent fathers, emotional problems, mental health hospitalisation, suicide attempts, best friend ex bfs, AND of course FWB!!!!!

 

Now fwb's. This whole thread. LiveWell seemed to be the only guy who constructed will thought out answers, although some were more harsher. But so what, people should grow a pair. A FWB? How empty. How truly empty. The guy is using her for her body, he wont give a fudge. Sher thinks she's getting serviced, but Im sure there's one or two emotions flying around her head whilst that thing is pumping between her legs. Didn't Sally4Sara marry him in the end?

 

Or it could be the other way around. She using him, he thinks they'll both fall for each other. Poor thing.

 

I think (THEREFORE YOU CANNOT ARGUE MY OPINION SO UP YOURS), somebody in the FWB will be wanting more. Im my guess is, from what my crazy ex's have told me about casual sex (ie their need to feel wanted, or feel attractive blah blah blah boring) the girl will want a little more than the guy is willing to give.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I've had enough of crazy women. If she lets on that she used to sport f*ck, ons, have a FWB...I can't see her as long term. But by all means, I'll see her on her level. I'll gladly give her one. And then I'll move on. Adding to the great debate!

 

I'll get bashed for this but I REALLY don't give two small bananas. What I will tell you, is that woman who once asked me why I do not "do" ONS or F*ck buddies, I answered, because it doesn't seem productive.

 

That same woman, is 51 now, ageing fast. 3 failed marriages, countless Boyfriends and abusive step fathers to her daughter...oh and 1 STD. She's still single.

 

(Oh her magic number is/was 56 last time she told me).

 

Enough bitter old me. I just seem to attract all the crazy ho's who pop prozac for their breakfast. (I saw this happen once).

 

God Im bored now. Who want's a f*ck buddy?

 

I been waiting for a player type dude to chime in on this discussion and it is enlightening to say the least. Enlightening though not surprising, this is exactly how guys who engage women in casual sex, FWBs, FBs or whatever else outside of a committed relationship, view the women who participate in these activities - despite what guys may tell these women to their faces, this is exactly what they are saying about those women during their man chats. Well, hardly something to be proud of ladies.

[Yamaha]

A FWB? How empty. How truly empty

 

Amen, bro. A utter waste of time and emotion.

 

I respect myself to much to engage in FWB relations and I respect the woman I'm dating to only want her for sex.

[lamaman3]

Actually it's not odd, it's a deliberate part of the relationship dynamic women like this--and there seem to be a lot of them--want to impose on their relationships.

 

They have a lot of investment in saying that they DON'T CARE about what men think.

 

It's not that women who think like this actually have sexual relationships, totally devoid of any emotional connection. You've pretty much successfully pointed out that few if any women have actually described any relationships devoid of emotion. What they've actually described are monogamous sexual relationships with desirable men, spanning long periods of time, in which the man involved simply doesn't want to invest much more than it takes to get the sex.

 

Honestly - you should not really be participating in this discussion because the above quote shows that you really do not have experience with such a situation. It is completely foreign to you - if this has to do with lack of opportunity then it could explain your hostility to such a thing. Someone that is capable of such a relationship (yes it is a relationship, every interaction you have with anyone is some sort of a relationship) would think of it as a sexual relationship, perhaps a friendship as well - without expectations of monogamy or where the woman exchanges sex for some sort of public title or future promise of marriage)

 

AO likes to examine things from a macro point of view. Judging aside, all relationships you have with women stem from a reproductive strategy - obviously this is why you do not have the same type of relationship with a man. Some men think the best way to "get a woman" is to promise her an engagement ring, tell her they love her and will never leave her and will support her ($$$) and somehow they think this is more noble and healthy than a man "stealing" sex from her. Such an attitude reveals a mistaken mindset that women are not already extremely sexual beings, and are often capable of enjoying sexual relationships without necessarily having the title of "girlfriend" or being monogamous. Instead they think that all women "tolerate" sex in exchange for a man's support - financial, emotional, and otherwise.

 

 

 

The women are obviously hanging around not just for the sex, because they can get sex pretty much anywhere, anytime they want it. They're hanging around because they're hoping alpha male "comes around" and the relationship evolves into something more. Sometimes it does, a lot of the time it doesn't. And the relationship ends.

 

This right here shows even more your lack of experience with women. Women are not delicate little flowers always pining away for a man to walk them down the aisle. Its simply not true. Yes women are capable of getting sex anytime and with anybody - but the vast majority of men are repulsive to them because they do not know how to turn a woman on. Just like you could get sex anytime anywhere with a prostitute but such a scenario probably does not appeal to you and neither does sleeping with an obese woman. Both of these scenarios are comparable to what women feel with the majority of men.

So why do women do it? Apparently you think they are doing it in hopes of getting the title of "girlfriend" - and then what? The title changes things? Now she is happy because he says this is my girlfriend instead of not saying that?

 

She does it because she enjoys sex and companionship with a man. YES shocking - women are capable of enjoying this and not just trade it for a sperm donor for babies or an ATM machine to pay for dates and an engagement ring.

 

And being used sexually by an alpha male, pining for him, being monogamously committed when likely as not the alpha is not being exclusive (although he may lie about that of course) and then being dumped after a few months or a couple of years when the alpha moves on isn't very good for a woman's ego.

 

LOL @ being used sexually. 2 People having sex for the sheer enjoyment of it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of "being used sexually." A man or woman having sex only BECAUSE the other person promised them an engagement ring or a baby or that they would take them to the prom to show off to all her friends or whatever IS USING SEX TO OBTAIN SOMETHING ELSE. So we can say that the true conclusion is in fact the opposite from the one you described.

 

So it's the next guy down the road, the betas, the relationship guys, the guys who actually care, who take the brunt of the woman's anger at how she was treated.

 

These quotes really show your own flawed mindset. Why in the world would you "take the brunt of a womans anger." If you dont like how a woman acts towards you - you need to find another one. Why is it that all the alpha males are able to find nice women to have good experiences with but you find yourself taking the brunt of women's anger? Perhaps if you had more self-respect you would not associate with women who spew anger at you. If you are finding that this is your experience with women perhaps you should look in the mirror for why this happens rather than blaming all women.

 

 

An alpha certainly wouldn't tolerate some woman on an internet site responding to a reasoned attempt to communicate with her, saying WE DON'T CARE. The alpha would respond by saying F*CK OFF B*TCH..

 

Wow...You really need some life experience. Its only the betas here relating to women like that. Alphas find women and have a good time with them and good experiences with them - because they are above petty things like, "how many flings did you have when you were in college, now you are damaged trashbag." With that attitude you expect women to be attracted to you rather than spew anger at you??

 

As for an alpha, no risk whatsoever...like lamaman, or a PUA, he will tell them whatever nonsense he thinks they want to hear, whatever key turns the lock that opens the vault to get to wherever the carnal goodies are; once that door is opened, he will just plow them until he tires of them.

 

Wow. Once again your assumptions are totally divorced from reality. Alpha males have no need to tell a woman what she wants to hear to get the "carnal goodies." They are able to have sexual relationships easily because they understand what turns women on - and its not the promise of "being nice and promising a relationship." Its the men who can not attract women who need to tell them what they want to hear - "I love you sooo much and want to marry you" - as the only strategy to have a sexual relationship with them - its always these betas who end up cheating on their wives. Why? Because if you are able to have sexual relationships without a title of finace, and you do marry someone - its because you actually WANT to marry them. Its betas that get strung along because they are not leaders and think that wanting sex with a woman without a relationship is something shameful.

 

As for plowing someone until you get tired of them...I'm confused - dont all relationships end when someone gets tired of the other person and no longer wants to be with them? If you are dating someone and get tired of dating them - you wont break up? Youll stay together because you are too nice and beta to break up? And now you know why women distrust "nice guys"

[lamaman3]

I been waiting for a player type dude to chime in on this discussion and it is enlightening to say the least. Enlightening though not surprising, this is exactly how guys who engage women in casual sex, FWBs, FBs or whatever else outside of a committed relationship, view the women who participate in these activities - despite what guys may tell these women to their faces, this is exactly what they are saying about those women during their man chats. Well, hardly something to be proud of ladies.

 

You guys have been watching too many movies that feature high school boys in locker rooms. Obviously the concept of a respectful man acting on his sexual attraction with a woman without necessarily being her boyfriend is foreign to you but its really only shooting yourself in the foot to think like this. Nothing will turn a woman off faster than letting her know you are judging her sexually and she is engaging in sexual behavior that "she shouldnt be proud of." A man that celebrates women's sexuality will always be more attractive to her and to ALL but the most neurotic and damaged women." And finally - the fact that you would pick a woman as a companion, not because of how she treats you or how attracted to her phsyically and how caring she is etc - but rather how OTHER MEN view her - can help explain exactly why this attitude is so repulsive to women.

[Woggle]

I would never pick a woman based on how other men view her. I would however use trustworthiness as a major factor. You sound very young and what you say sounds like it came from a book or some PUA seminar.

[Surrealist]

You guys have been watching too many movies that feature high school boys in locker rooms. Obviously the concept of a respectful man acting on his sexual attraction with a woman without necessarily being her boyfriend is foreign to you but its really only shooting yourself in the foot to think like this. Nothing will turn a woman off faster than letting her know you are judging her sexually and she is engaging in sexual behavior that "she shouldnt be proud of." A man that celebrates women's sexuality will always be more attractive to her and to ALL but the most neurotic and damaged women." And finally - the fact that you would pick a woman as a companion, not because of how she treats you or how attracted to her phsyically and how caring she is etc - but rather how OTHER MEN view her - can help explain exactly why this attitude is so repulsive to women.

 

I'm not the one who is making those judgments if you are referring to abouttoloseit's post. I merely cited it as an example of how those player guys view the women who engage in these types of sexual activities. I don't treat women this way, and yes, I may well be shooting myself in the foot because I'm not getting laid. But I'm not looking for that so its really no skin offa my nose anyway.