Was doing so good...now he has broken nc at 18 days

[jthorne]

Not the bond of the MM to the OW, but the other way around. "Absence makes the heart grow fonder"? The feeling of devastation and loss and of missing them. If the ties aren't fully ready to be cut it can just heighten the feelings all the more, actually delaying the overall breaking-up process.

Sorry, not buying it. Using this same argument, the heroin addict should continue to use until they either get tired of it or die.

 

Your argument assumes that people have no self control, which is blameshifting at it's finest.

[Silly_Girl]

Sorry, not buying it. Using this same argument, the heroin addict should continue to use until they either get tired of it or die.

 

Your argument assumes that people have no self control, which is blameshifting at it's finest.

 

If someone really isn't ready to give up an addiction, if that's what you want to liken it to, then they won't. They may substitute it with something else, or get back on the wagon and fall off again, but they need to be ready. Sometimes it works on the first attempt, sometimes it takes several attempts, some give up giving up at all.

 

You don't have to 'buy' it. If you aren't interested in understanding the views of others, that's up to you. I'm just saying that there IS that aspect at play, for some people.

[jennie-jennie]

Oh, please. If this were really true, OW would be using NC at the drop of the hat to "bond" their MM's to them.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

You might want to read this article by Dr. Nancy Kalish: "Let’s Talk Again A Month From Now Affair Partners: Why 'No Contact' Doesn’t Work and Makes Things Worse". Notice that Dr. Kalish is against affairs.

 

http://www.lostlovers.com/lets-talk-again-a-month-from-now-affair-partners-why-no-contact-doesnt-work-and-makes-things-worse/

[jthorne]

You might want to read this article by Dr. Nancy Kalish: "Let’s Talk Again A Month From Now Affair Partners: Why 'No Contact' Doesn’t Work and Makes Things Worse". Notice that Dr. Kalish is against affairs.

 

http://www.lostlovers.com/lets-talk-again-a-month-from-now-affair-partners-why-no-contact-doesnt-work-and-makes-things-worse/

 

Yeah, I read that a few months back when it was brought up on another thread. Thanks though.

[Silly_Girl]

I like that article. I've been there. In my last relationship, and in this one. It rings bells, and is nice to see in text something I've just 'felt' and not necessarily been able to fully articulate.

 

Thanks j-j!

[Silly_Girl]

Yeah, I read that a few months back when it was brought up on another thread. Thanks though.

 

To your mind it's still tripe though? Not stirring, just interested.

 

I don't think NC can never work, but I think there's clearly a lot of scenarios when it's more likely to fail than not, and I think awareness is important for OW's in that position.

[jennie-jennie]

Yeah, I read that a few months back when it was brought up on another thread. Thanks though.

 

Do you have any reading tips for us, jthorne? I would be interested in what books and/or articles you could recommend on the subject of infidelity. I am always looking to learn more, you know.

[jthorne]

To your mind it's still tripe though? Not stirring, just interested.

 

I don't think NC can never work, but I think there's clearly a lot of scenarios when it's more likely to fail than not, and I think awareness is important for OW's in that position.

Of course I think it's tripe. It assumes that people have no self control, and miraculously lose their faculties over an affair.

I choose to believe that people can somehow manage to keep their wits about them. After all, if they were so riddled with anxiety, how could they keep their anxiety (and thus the A) secret?

Nah, it's just more excuses.

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't know how you or anybody else here can encourage her to give up what she is not ready to give up. There is nothing beneficial to be gained from going NC before one is ready for it.

 

It's the same old song.

 

I got the SAME, EXACT advice.

 

He didn't love me enough and would never leave.

 

NC before one is really ready for it doesn't get the desired results and I believe increases the chances that the A continues and the bond gets even stronger.

 

GEL

[Silly_Girl]

Of course I think it's tripe. It assumes that people have no self control, and miraculously lose their faculties over an affair.

I choose to believe that people can somehow manage to keep their wits about them. After all, if they were so riddled with anxiety, how could they keep their anxiety (and thus the A) secret?

Nah, it's just more excuses.

 

It's people's emotions and desires that gets them in to an affair. You know that. So why can't those self same factors make it hard for them to get out? Some people will work well with one approach, some with another.

 

If people could 'keep their wits about them' how the hell do they stay in affairs? Really? Where were YOUR 'wits'?

 

Sometimes I feel as though your comments are actually a form of self-therapy for you, as you seem very closed-minded and cold during exchanges. As though you are reticent to explore something that falls outside of your chosen view. Apologies if I'm way off, but you're bright, articulate and I've seen you show enormous compassion; yet you often behave quite the opposite so you confuse me!

[fooled once]

The A is going NOWHERE and this guy isn't leaving his wife. That is the bottomline. It's a vicious circle, a very unhealthy situation for her, yet sadly she is far from walking away from the drama, the addictiveness of the affair.

 

This is NOT love, at all. MY 2 cents on this situation.

 

You are right though, NC won't work unless the person is ready for it. It's just a shame because the NC was working until he contacted her and she caved, gave in. She was atleast off that rollercoaster ride of emotions for nearly 20 days..

 

JJ, I am not going to encourage ANYBODY to continue to engage in something that does alot damage to them.

 

IF karma didn't have kids, and she chooses to get back with this known liar and all the drama, that's HER decision. BUT her kids should not be stuck back into that mess.

 

This guys has drugs at his house.

This guy has domestic violence in his house.

This guy has lied and hurt her badly.

This guy is choosing to stay with a supposedly drug abusing woman who allegedly hit him.

And he is sucking Karma back into that nasty, disgusting mess.

 

But her children should not have to endure more of the same AND put into a possible very bad situation since the police DO know about all the alleged drugs at that house.

 

...except for strength, self-respect, new inner wisdom.

 

What you posted doesn't make sense to me Jennie-Jennie because as far as I know it seems *no one* is ever ready to go NC. You have to make yourself do it. I sure wasn't ready, and didn't want to, but I knew I needed to. I feel based on knowing her from her posts that Karma is in the same spot. She doesn't want to be with this loser MM, she knows he's not good for her, she knows she deserves better, yet she goes back to him anyway. That's why I encourage her to look deep within and go to counseling so she can figure out why she stays stuck in a situation she knows isn't good for her. So she can get ready to go NC or just do it anyway and stick with it until she's healed and she no longer feels this pull to this unhealthy relationship.

 

And him lying to her, lying to his wife, and giving her scraps is an unhealthy relationship no matter which way anyone looks at it. But until she's willing to face it and do whatever it takes to get out of it, you're right, there's nothing any of us can do. But I'm not going to tell her to enjoy this unhealthy relationship because I don't see how that's good, let alone realistic, advice. She clearly is not enjoying it...

 

Great post star!

 

No one should ever tolerate that kind of treatment. But some people have zero self esteem and zero 'will power'.

 

This argument doesn't work for me. I thought the mantra being pushed here was 'you know cheating is wrong so ignore your feelings and DON'T DO IT'. If someone knows deep down NC will not WORK for them, they shouldn't do it. It's incredibly painful...

 

So the argument doesn't work for you....that's okay. Yet jthorne said she wasn't buying an argument and you said

 

You don't have to 'buy' it. If you aren't interested in understanding the views of others, that's up to you. I'm just saying that there IS that aspect at play, for some people.

why the double standard? That is the common issue I see here. It is as if no one is allowed to have a different opinion that a current OW and if you do, you get the :rolleyes:

 

And what "mantra" are you talking about? Can you point me in the direction of where this mantra is posted? Are you saying that those of us who are encouraging Karma to NOT get back into the affair are continually saying "you know cheating is wrong so ignore your feelings and don't do it"?

 

I actually haven't seen that myself; but then again, I haven't read every post as I have not had a lot of time to be here. I understand feeling as if you are in love with someone and it being hard when it doesn't work out. I don't think there is a single OW here who hasn't felt that pain and I don't think there is a single former OW here who loved the MM who has easily ended an A and didn't feel sadness or depressed. I think many former OW caution women to not give up their lives for a MM, to not sit and wait forever for a MM and to not accept less than you would ever accept from a single guy.

 

We all know cheating is wrong -- I don't think there is a person here who says cheating is okay or right.

 

I know stealing is wrong, and I don't do it. I know ramming my car into another driver is wrong, so I don't do it (as much as I would love to sometimes!!). I know plenty of things are wrong and I do my best to avoid temptation and go against my own moral code. I am far from perfect and I am a continual work in progress. I know smoking is wrong, but I still do it.

 

Do I think it is a good idea for Karma to continue to engage the MM? Heck no, I don't think ANYONE does after what she went through. But she seems like she is going to go forward with it and I see people cautioning her to get all wrapped up in it again. How is that wrong? Why would anyone encourage her to jump right back into a situation that recently involved the police, drugs and a wife who has a grudge against the woman she knows is having an affair with her H? I mean - HELLO - how would her getting involved again a GOOD thing? because she misses him? because she loves him? So what. What has changed? He is married. He CHOSE his wife. He said to her that he wanted to keep her around for a booty call. Why would anyone encourage her to get back into this?

 

[fooled once]

I think that everyone who has been an OW has broken NC and went back to the A.

GEL

 

Actually, I never broken NC

[jthorne]

It's people's emotions and desires that gets them in to an affair. You know that. So why can't those self same factors make it hard for them to get out? Some people will work well with one approach, some with another.

 

If people could 'keep their wits about them' how the hell do they stay in affairs? Really? Where were YOUR 'wits'?

 

Sometimes I feel as though your comments are actually a form of self-therapy for you, as you seem very closed-minded and cold during exchanges. As though you are reticent to explore something that falls outside of your chosen view. Apologies if I'm way off, but you're bright, articulate and I've seen you show enormous compassion; yet you often behave quite the opposite so you confuse me!

Easy answer for that. It's called Ignore.

Otherwise, please don't waste Karma's time on her thread with direct responses to me. It's disrespectful.

Edited November 5, 2010 by jthorne

[Silly_Girl]

FO, an argument not working for me personally is different to saying people are making excuses, or rubbishing something, or not being prepared to discuss something put forward by a fellow poster which clearly discusses exactly the point being debated. And my 'rolly-eyes' is no different to 'oh please'...

 

And yes, I do see it posted that people on this board should ignore their emotions and go with their morals. Easy to say.

 

Are Karma's kids in some way caught up in illegal drugs? I didn't see that

 

Look, we're all grown-ups here. We've all known folks who are strongly advised against something, for THEIR OWN GOOD, and all it does is serve to push them towards it. Particularly where R's are concerned. I suspect that premature NC can lead to a prolonging of feelings and of the R itself. So for all those who want to bitch that it's irresponsible and uncaring.... I would rather Karma was in a position of full knowledge and understanding and found her own path as quickly and rationally as possible. THAT is why I am suggesting NC is not always the solution. I am NOT advocating Karma stay with MM, it's because I care and I would hope for more than she has currently, for her, that I am arguing another view.

[Silly_Girl]

Easy answer for that. It's called Ignore.

Otherwise, please don't waste Karma's time on her thread with direct responses to me. It's disrespectful.

 

These threads are full of quotes and direct responses to posters who aren't the OP. I see you do it with little one line quips and funny stuff. What's the rule on this, then?

 

Apologies for offending you though.

[GreenEyedLady]

Actually, I never broken NC

 

Well, we already know that you are stronger than anyone else and immune to MM's advances. Good for you. It worked out the way you wanted it to.

 

For everyone else who is STILL madly in love with the MM, they go back. And it's completely NORMAL.

 

And most OW won't admit it on this forum because it gets thrown in their faces and posts like yours above hurt.

 

GEL

[jj33]

Karma we havent heard back from you hope you are OK.

 

If it helps at all, I flirted with the idea of going back to the A on and off for the first 6 months after it was over but it was no longer enough. So after that, I was prepared to fend off his advances, could smell them coming before the words were even out of his mouth. I never gave in again.

 

But being in contact, he keeps trying from time to time, just when you think hes gotten the message (no I wont ever go back to the A) he tries again. It opens up the wound a bit but less each time. So having a set back doesnt mean that you cant move forward. This last time, just a few weeks ago, it didnt phase me at all. Annoyed me more than anything else. Still married, little time for us to spend together as I am so much busier now, no point. Im not willing to spend my limited free time with someone who is married to someone else when IMHO there is no reason for him to be there if he is really and truly in love with me.

[jennie-jennie]

Well, we already know that you are stronger than anyone else and immune to MM's advances. Good for you. It worked out the way you wanted it to.

 

For everyone else who is STILL madly in love with the MM, they go back. And it's completely NORMAL.

 

And most OW won't admit it on this forum because it gets thrown in their faces and posts like yours above hurt.

 

GEL

 

Yeah, how is telling Karma she has "zero self esteem and zero 'will power'" helpful?

[whichwayisup]

But her children should not have to endure more of the same AND put into a possible very bad situation since the police DO know about all the alleged drugs at that house.

 

As far as I can remember, I don't think the MM was around her kids. I could be wrong though.. Last thing she needs to deal with MM's wife going after her and/or her kids if she finds out the A has started up again.

[desertIslandCactus]

Are you comparing your husband to this ..... MM?

Wow, ok.

Explains a lot.

 

Trophies

[fooled once]

FO, an argument not working for me personally is different to saying people are making excuses, or rubbishing something, or not being prepared to discuss something put forward by a fellow poster which clearly discusses exactly the point being debated. And my 'rolly-eyes' is no different to 'oh please'...

 

And yes, I do see it posted that people on this board should ignore their emotions and go with their morals. Easy to say.

 

Are Karma's kids in some way caught up in illegal drugs? I didn't see that

 

Are you not reading what I write? Seriously Silly, this is getting old.

 

I never said Karma's kids are caught up in illegal drugs, but the MM she is entralled with DOES have POUNDS of illegal drugs in his home, that he shares with his wife and THEIR kids. She could cause all kinds of trouble for herself if she has her kids in the home of a known drug abuser/seller. I am a little shocked that you don't see that.

Look, we're all grown-ups here. We've all known folks who are strongly advised against something, for THEIR OWN GOOD, and all it does is serve to push them towards it. Particularly where R's are concerned. I suspect that premature NC can lead to a prolonging of feelings and of the R itself. So for all those who want to bitch that it's irresponsible and uncaring.... I would rather Karma was in a position of full knowledge and understanding and found her own path as quickly and rationally as possible. THAT is why I am suggesting NC is not always the solution. I am NOT advocating Karma stay with MM, it's because I care and I would hope for more than she has currently, for her, that I am arguing another view.

 

Actually, in my experience, it is kids who are rebellious - tell them something is bad for them, they then want what they can't/shouldn't have. Normally, in my experience, adults aren't like that.

 

How is the NC premature? She got her closure, he chose his wife. How is NC premature?

 

Well, we already know that you are stronger than anyone else and immune to MM's advances. Good for you. It worked out the way you wanted it to.

 

For everyone else who is STILL madly in love with the MM, they go back. And it's completely NORMAL.

 

And most OW won't admit it on this forum because it gets thrown in their faces and posts like yours above hurt.

 

GEL

 

Another sarcastic response from you because no one else is allowed to have a view different. Actually, I am not stronger than everyone else. You made a generalization and I pointed out that I never broke NC. How does that make me this superior bitch that you are implying I am with your sarcastic response? Take it to PM if you have such a problem with me or ignore my posts. So OW who are dumped by MM should break NC because they are "in love" and it's normal? No need to answer... It is a rhetorical question.

 

How did my post hurt? Because I didn't support her in going back into the affair with the guy who told her he wanted to keep her around for occasions when he needed sex? Because I didn't say "YEA - great job! Go back to the guy who has drugs in his house and who told you he wanted to make his marriage work! WOO HOO!" This is getting so old.

[GreenEyedLady]

Actually, in my experience, it is kids who are rebellious - tell them something is bad for them, they then want what they can't/shouldn't have. Normally, in my experience, adults aren't like that.

 

How is the NC premature? She got her closure, he chose his wife. How is NC premature?

 

 

 

Another sarcastic response from you because no one else is allowed to have a view different. Actually, I am not stronger than everyone else. You made a generalization and I pointed out that I never broke NC. How does that make me this superior bitch that you are implying I am with your sarcastic response? Take it to PM if you have such a problem with me or ignore my posts. So OW who are dumped by MM should break NC because they are "in love" and it's normal? No need to answer... It is a rhetorical question.

 

How did my post hurt? Because I didn't support her in going back into the affair with the guy who told her he wanted to keep her around for occasions when he needed sex? Because I didn't say "YEA - great job! Go back to the guy who has drugs in his house and who told you he wanted to make his marriage work! WOO HOO!" This is getting so old.

 

It's not a generalization. Most OW who are not ready to go NC end up breaking the NC. It is only the ones who are really DONE that don't. You were DONE. Karma is NOT. And your A was drastically different. You didn't see him that much and weren't physical but a handful of times. Not at ALL like Karma's A.

 

You can't compare the two.

 

And if you think your post isn't as sarcastic then you need to step back, take a deep breath and realize this isn't your life, it's Karma's. And she needs to feel like she can make a choice, be it good or not so good and still be able to come here and be real and still get support and not poked in the heart.

 

Remember when you loved and believed in your MM. This is a process, one that is different for everyone.

 

GEL

[whichwayisup]

Most OW who are not ready to go NC end up breaking the NC. It is only the ones who are really DONE that don't. You were DONE. Karma is NOT

Karma didn't break NC, she was doing really good and feeling happier each day, dealing with things.

 

I think if exMM hadn't contacted her, they would still be in NC mode.

[Spiritgirl]

 

Remember when you loved and believed in your MM. This is a process, one that is different for everyone.

 

GEL

 

 

I think that's the bottom line here. It really is a different process for everyone, even if things appear the same. She has got to work it out at her own pace and seeks our support. I think those posters who are saying, hey, stop it, you are worth more! mean really well, but I also think that those of us who are supporting her through it, no matter what, are just as helpful.

[Silly_Girl]

FO, I'm still lost. You said Karma's kids shouldn't be 'stuck back in that mess'. I see nothing to suggest they were and was genuinely shocked at your reference to them...