Was doing so good...now he has broken nc at 18 days

[awkward]

Jane is beating her head against the wall. Person A says, "Jane don't beat your head against the wall. You will get hurt." Person B says, "Jane go ahead and beat your head against the wall. You might get hurt, but clearly you want to beat your head against the wall so go ahead and do it". Person C says, "Jane I think beating your head against the wall is a great idea. Sure it might hurt for a moment but the fun of doing it minimizes the pain so much that it is totally worth it." Person D sees Jane beating her head against the wall and just shakes her head and walks away.

 

Karma, is there anyone in real life that you trust would give you solid, caring advice if you were to share all of the facts of your situation?

[fooled once]

It's not a generalization. Most OW who are not ready to go NC end up breaking the NC. It is only the ones who are really DONE that don't. You were DONE. Karma is NOT. And your A was drastically different. You didn't see him that much and weren't physical but a handful of times. Not at ALL like Karma's A.

 

You can't compare the two.

 

GEL

 

Actually, I saw the MM every day, so exactly what did I not see him that much? I worked with him for a year! He was at my house every single day for a year. He attended back to school night with me, school band concerts, baseball games, etc. So exactly where did *I* post that I didn't see him much???? And I said we only had SEX (as in INTERCOURSE) 3 times .... that doesn't mean we weren't intimate. Again, please get the facts straight before you start telling me what my affair was.

 

 

FO, I'm still lost. You said Karma's kids shouldn't be 'stuck back in that mess'. I see nothing to suggest they were and was genuinely shocked at your reference to them...

 

Are you kidding Silly? You have a young son - does he know the MM? Does he spend time with him? Is he a good role model for your child?

 

I guess I am the only Other Woman/Mistress who had her young child around the MM. I had a lot of explaining to do when the Affair was over and even more explaining to do when my son was older. Not one of my finer moments. Not only was that bad enough as a parent for me to do, but if the MM I was in an affair with had drugs in his house to the extent that the MM has alleged they are in his house .... where exactly does that make HIM a good role model for her children? Affairs aren't carried out in a vacuum. For all we know, Karma's kids and the MM's kids go to school together. I am stating that it is irresponsible parenting to have your kids around or associated with drugs (IMHO). And if she has her kids at the MM's house - where it has been stated time and time again that there is not only drugs, but lots of drug stuff - but a CRAZY wife...... and when this wife finds out who Karma is and who her kids are...no way would I want my kids anywhere near that f'ed up mess.

[Silly_Girl]

HAS KTD HAD HER KIDS AROUND HER MM OR AT MM'S HOUSE?

 

I am NOT kidding. Seriously, I am not aware of any contact. If there has been some, then I can form an opinion. But I wasn't aware of any contact. Can you point me at a post?

[fooled once]

Can you point me to where it specifically says she hasn't had them around him? Or at his house?

 

Like I asked, has MM been around your son and at your home?

[Silly_Girl]

Assumption. Okay, thanks. You were pretty vocal that there was negative impact on her kids; I had been a bit ambivalent about her stopping (or not stopping) contact, and I'd have been much more anti had I thought her kids were in danger of being caught up in domestic abuse between MM and his wife, or drugs, or god knows what else that comes with that particular MM deal.

[Ellin]

HAS KTD HAD HER KIDS AROUND HER MM OR AT MM'S HOUSE?

 

I am NOT kidding. Seriously, I am not aware of any contact. If there has been some, then I can form an opinion. But I wasn't aware of any contact. Can you point me at a post?

 

Exactly, lol!

 

KTD had her kids in her MM's house? That would be really, really unusual. It's rare for an OW to spend much time in her MM's house, which he shares with his W and family... But bring her own children as well?

[jennie-jennie]

Exactly, lol!

 

KTD had her kids in her MM's house? That would be really, really unusual. It's rare for an OW to spend much time in her MM's house, which he shares with his W and family... But bring her own children as well?

 

Some people have a vivid imagination!

[jthorne]

Jane is beating her head against the wall. Person A says, "Jane don't beat your head against the wall. You will get hurt." Person B says, "Jane go ahead and beat your head against the wall. You might get hurt, but clearly you want to beat your head against the wall so go ahead and do it". Person C says, "Jane I think beating your head against the wall is a great idea. Sure it might hurt for a moment but the fun of doing it minimizes the pain so much that it is totally worth it." Person D sees Jane beating her head against the wall and just shakes her head and walks away.

 

Karma, is there anyone in real life that you trust would give you solid, caring advice if you were to share all of the facts of your situation?

Excellent analogy and question.

 

Karma didn't break NC, she was doing really good and feeling happier each day, dealing with things.

 

I think if exMM hadn't contacted her, they would still be in NC mode.

I agree, and think even Karma might agree.

What's sad is that MM doesn't appear to have offered her anything more than at any other time.

Oh, well. We all live and learn.

[Ellin]

IF karma didn't have kids, and she chooses to get back with this known liar and all the drama, that's HER decision. BUT her kids should not be stuck back into that mess.

 

This guys has drugs at his house.

This guy has domestic violence in his house.

This guy has lied and hurt her badly.

This guy is choosing to stay with a supposedly drug abusing woman who allegedly hit him.

And he is sucking Karma back into that nasty, disgusting mess.

 

But her children should not have to endure more of the same AND put into a possible very bad situation since the police DO know about all the alleged drugs at that house.

 

What is it that her children had to endure???

Great post star!

 

No one should ever tolerate that kind of treatment. But some people have zero self esteem and zero 'will power'.

Incindently, like others I think this sort of aatitude is totally unhelpful. I asked you on another thread what your idea of support was, but sadly you refused to explain.

 

And by the way, I also strongly believe that premature NC can do more harm than good. "Premature" means the persin in question is not ready. You say she has had her closure because MM chose W, but she clearly hasn't. She won't find closure just because someone looking at it from "the outside" thinks this is the right time for it.

 

Everyone deals with things in their own way and learn their lessons at their own pace, and actually has to directly experience everything to have the best learning opportunity.

[Ellin]

Excellent analogy and question.

Well, I see it as a crude over-simplification, which is not a good way to illustrate complex emotional issues.

I agree, and think even Karma might agree.

What's sad is that MM doesn't appear to have offered her anything more than at any other time.

Oh, well. We all live and learn.

Well, is she had been so happy and doing so well during NC she wouldn't have fallen back into it so easily.

[jthorne]

Well, I see it as a crude over-simplification, which is not a good way to illustrate complex emotional issues.

 

Well, is she had been so happy and doing so well during NC she wouldn't have fallen back into it so easily.

Well, we obviously won't agree on the simplification, regardless of the emotional issue. The issue isn't complex, nor the solution.

 

And who ever said NC was supposed to be sunshine and rainbows?

[jennie-jennie]

Well, we obviously won't agree on the simplification, regardless of the emotional issue. The issue isn't complex, nor the solution.

And who ever said NC was supposed to be sunshine and rainbows?

 

Whichwayisup!

 

Karma didn't break NC, she was doing really good and feeling happier each day, dealing with things.

 

I think if exMM hadn't contacted her, they would still be in NC mode.

[Carrot2000]

No no I'm not doing good. I've allowed him to text me most of the day and accepted a lunch invite. I kissed him goodbye. I've let my heart open for yearning for him again. This is a disaster, but a ride I don't want to stop just yet. How are these men such a damn narcotic!?!?!?

 

Sometimes our hearts are too quick to forgive. We hang on to the memories of when things were good and we stick around hoping to experience that kind of joy again. I know when I was in my situation, I kept going back again and again because I wanted him to love me. I wanted him to finally say "Carrot, I choose you." Didn't happen, though.

 

Sometimes we have to have an anvil dropped on our heads over and over until we get the message.

[awkward]

Honestly if you have read Karma's posts and the way she describes MM's words and actions, does even one person here truly believe that MM is going to change anytime soon?

 

The advice and support I provide to Karma may not be what she wants to hear but I truly believe it is healthy advice or I wouldn't give it. I don't post to hurt OW.

 

If Karma was your daughter and you were aware of how MM treats her and behaves, would you advise your daughter to keep contact with him until she is ready? What if that contact just caused her more pain? When would it be enough for you to advise your daughter to get out of this toxic relationship? I am not being a bitch here. I'm really curious as to what type of advice each person here would give their daughter in this EXACT situation because we are only discussing Karma and her situation in this thread not extra-marital relationships in general.

 

Yes endings hurt. But sometimes it is in a person's best interest to end. I'm curious as to when it is ok to advise others to end. Advising Karma to end isn't going to make her end nor will it mean we won't support her if she doesn't end, but advising her to continue with "this MM" , honestly I just don't get it. Karma reads the replies here and thinks about what we say. She isn't the type to put her fingers in her ears and only read the good stuff.

 

((Karma)) I'm sorry that MM contacted you. I hope you come back soon.

[awkward]

Well, I see it as a crude over-simplification, which is not a good way to illustrate complex emotional issues.

 

Well, is she had been so happy and doing so well during NC she wouldn't have fallen back into it so easily.

 

Well Ellin I'm sorry that you feel that way. Perhaps you could illustrate it for Karma in a better way.

[Spiritgirl]

What is it that her children had to endure???

 

 

And by the way, I also strongly believe that premature NC can do more harm than good. "Premature" means the persin in question is not ready. You say she has had her closure because MM chose W, but she clearly hasn't. She won't find closure just because someone looking at it from "the outside" thinks this is the right time for it.

 

Everyone deals with things in their own way and learn their lessons at their own pace, and actually has to directly experience everything to have the best learning opportunity.

 

 

I totally agree with this statement. I dont think anyone trying to support Karma is encouraging her to see him nor are they happy about it. Obviously he isnt good for her. But she KNOWS THIS, she gets it. Telling her over and over again isnt going to help. I dont think she is in denial at all, in that case it WOULD be helpful. She isnt yet strong enough to resist him and to tell him no YET. Thats why I say if you are going to see him ANYWAY even though you know its not good for you, keep your eyes open and we will be here to support you when you've had enough. big big difference between that and saying, hey, go for it girl! that guy is good for you!

Either way as I said before, you are a great bunch of ladies and so passionate to help. I really think everyone here has good intentions and wants to be supportive.

[Silly_Girl]

Fantastic post Spiritgirl. You totally get it!!

 

Karma - please don't stop posting. Start a new thread if you like? These posts may have gone a bit awry but they prove one thing - there's a lot of posters who care about you and want the best for you!

 

Take care of yourself.

[jennie-jennie]

Do we really know enough about Karma's MM to say that he is toxic for her?

 

His wife seems to be toxic for him, that is true. Drugs and physical abuse of her husband. Is his association with his wife enough to make him toxic to Karma? Perhaps. A lot of drama undeniably.

 

What else have we seen? Well, typically the usual MM stuff. Nothing noteworthy. Flip-flopping.

 

I leave it up to Karma to judge whether her MM is good or not for her. I don't have enough facts to make a judgment. Karma is an adult. I trust she will make a decision good for her, and in the extension good for her child.

 

The best support to an OW, IMO, is to support the OW where she is at, not where I might wish she would be.

[Owl]

Do we really know enough about Karma's MM to say that he is toxic for her?

 

We know enough about the SITUATION to know that the SITUATION is toxic for her. That's fairly obvious given the information she's provided.

 

 

The best support to an OW, IMO, is to support the OW where she is at, not where I might wish she would be.

 

This is a fundamental difference in mindset. Because for many of us, the best support to give someone who is in a bad/toxic/painful situation is to remove themselves from the situation, rather than suggest they remain there and hope that things get better on their own.

 

Supporting someone "where they're at" often isn't the right answer. That "where they're at" is the source of the problem...if they don't change that, then there's no solution.

 

If you want something to change...you have to initiate change. Most posters come here for advice wanting something to change.

[woinlove]

We know enough about the SITUATION to know that the SITUATION is toxic for her. That's fairly obvious given the information she's provided.

 

 

 

 

This is a fundamental difference in mindset. Because for many of us, the best support to give someone who is in a bad/toxic/painful situation is to remove themselves from the situation, rather than suggest they remain there and hope that things get better on their own.

 

Supporting someone "where they're at" often isn't the right answer. That "where they're at" is the source of the problem...if they don't change that, then there's no solution.

 

If you want something to change...you have to initiate change. Most posters come here for advice wanting something to change.

 

Excellent response.

 

Also, as to where Karma is at, she started this thread with "Sorry I haven't been around much. Was doing really well. Living life, not thinking about him, going to ic and looking around to see what else is out there."

 

When someone is on a rollercoaster that they themselves describe as a narcotic which they know brings pain and loss of self-esteem, it seems more useful to try to support them in getting back to "doing really well", than to suggest they simply go along for the ride.

[jennie-jennie]

We know enough about the SITUATION to know that the SITUATION is toxic for her. That's fairly obvious given the information she's provided.

 

If the man I love was in a toxic situation, I would stand by him and strive to support him and his children as best as I know and to the best of my ability. I would make sure my children were not affected by the situation, and as far as possible that I was affected as little as possible too.

 

This is a fundamental difference in mindset. Because for many of us, the best support to give someone who is in a bad/toxic/painful situation is to remove themselves from the situation, rather than suggest they remain there and hope that things get better on their own.

 

Supporting someone "where they're at" often isn't the right answer. That "where they're at" is the source of the problem...if they don't change that, then there's no solution.

 

If you want something to change...you have to initiate change. Most posters come here for advice wanting something to change.

 

Supporting someone where they are not at, equals no support at all IMO. All it can do is make matters worse by giving advice not suitable for the situation at hand. I really can't understand that mindset. It is wishful thinking.

 

As I said before, I trust Karma's judgment whether her MM or the situation is too toxic for her own good. She is an adult, she can determine what she can or can not handle.

[KarmasTestDummy]

Just an update. Thanks to al who have been posting, both supportive and concerned. I never doubt the sincerity and best wishes for me from this group. I am still talking and seeing him. I am in no current mindset to change that right now. Even my ic supports that, indicating I'm a grown woman who has to make my own choices and do what makes me happy. I was genuinely surprised by her as I was pretty honest on my disclosure with her about the situation. Neither of us are in a place to be able to let go, and history is repeatedly showing me that until we are we will continue the chase. I walked because he wanted to put forth the effort to salvage his m. I didn't want to interfere. It had nothing to do with not wanting him. He's unable to do that. How could he when he has the same desires as me? We agreed nc just isn't going to work...agreed that time apart only makes those desires stronger.

My kids are safe...shielded and oblivious...as is his. My new manta for the time being is to never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

[Silly_Girl]

Wel done Karma. I confess I personally don't see a fairytale ending for you guys - the way things stand. But if you're doing what's best for you, being realistic, and remain in control... well, good for you!

 

My IC said exactly the same actually, said I would walk away when I was ready and if I wasn't ready I was just heaping more pressure and upset on myself. I think if you understand the situation and have a good grasp on things the IC doesn't need to 'work on you' to peel back layers of denial.

[LucreziaBorgia]

At least you know where you stand.

 

What makes me most angry about this situation is that you spent a long hard time mourning this guy, making his loss a major part of your day, not hearing from him, struggling to get by, scraping your way toward some level of healing. You worked so hard.

 

All he had to do to dismantle you was show up on your doorstep after all that time wanting sex and knowing he would get it. It was that easy. He didn't have to work at all to put you right back in your place. Only this time, he has manipulated you into not only accepting the very bare minimum that he has to offer you, he has convinced you to accept this as "happiness".

 

I am certain he is relieved that you will not try to interfere with his marriage anymore.

 

What I wish for you is that it hadn't been so easy for him. It burns me up to see how easy it is for MP to manipulate OP into accepting what they would NEVER accept from a single person. You worked so hard, but for what?

 

That said - just watch out for the wife. If she is as unstable as he says and in the ways you have outlined in your threads, it may be your window she is crashing into next. And... when the sh*t hits that fan, guess whose side the MM will be on?

 

It sounds like that at least you know the score now. Just don't forget where his loyalties ultimately lie.

[donnamaybe]

Some people have a vivid imagination!

Yes. Some people do.

 

I'm sorry, folks, but if someone is ever going to get their life back, they have to remove from said life what is dragging them down.

 

I don't know why that's so difficult a concept to grasp.