Was doing so good...now he has broken nc at 18 days

[someday]

Karma,

 

You seem like a nice lady who's in love with a not so nice man. I think it's very important to reflect on what you *want* vs. what you *need*...figure out the differences between the two. At some point we realize that what we want may not be what we need- or what is best for us. Maybe he can be who you need him to be...but maybe he doesn’t have it in him...what will you do if he can never be what you want and need?

 

Regardless, I'm sending you all my best.

[Owl]

KTD, I'm curious what the status is with MM and his marriage/wife after all the drama that went down when the police were called?

 

Have they been back? Has MM chosen to try to reconcile with her? What's going on with that front?

 

I get that you choose to stay where you're at...and that's indeed your choice.

 

It also means you're signing up for whatever comes out of that decision too. My concern is that you've not thought through that very well...it may be something that you could consider spending some cycles on working through.

 

I wish you the best!

[Star_Bright]

Jane is beating her head against the wall. Person A says, "Jane don't beat your head against the wall. You will get hurt." Person B says, "Jane go ahead and beat your head against the wall. You might get hurt, but clearly you want to beat your head against the wall so go ahead and do it". Person C says, "Jane I think beating your head against the wall is a great idea. Sure it might hurt for a moment but the fun of doing it minimizes the pain so much that it is totally worth it." Person D sees Jane beating her head against the wall and just shakes her head and walks away.

 

Karma, is there anyone in real life that you trust would give you solid, caring advice if you were to share all of the facts of your situation?

 

I think this is a great analogy. Great post awkward.

 

And for those of you claiming that karma is "believing" in her MM and "loving" him... I call BS. I think you are projecting your own sitch or former sitch onto her. From what I read, this is *not* like greeneyedlady's sitch where her guy was telling her he would leave and backing it up. And from what I read this is *not* like jennie-jennie's sitch where jennie-jennie says that the love she gets from her MM is worth knowing he's not leaving his wife and she's okay with that and happy. Yet jennie-jennie and greeneyedlady are using their own personal sitch to give karma advice as if her sitch is the same. That boggles my mind.

 

I haven't heard karma say her guy told her he is leaving- only that he feels he needs to try to make it work with his supposedly drugged-up pot-selling wife, and that he can only offer karma scraps. I don't hear karma saying she believes in his love, or even that she loves him, or that he is saying he will leave for her or she thinks he is. Nor do I hear karma saying she is happy with this relationship and the love she gets from MM is worth not having what she really wants and she's happy with things like they are.

 

I only hear karma saying, well, I know this sitch isn't good for me, but I've resigned myself to staying in it for now, because I just can't break free from it. I've heard her say something along the lines of, I'm being honest that we are back in contact but I know it's not what I should be doing or what I want to be doing, and it doesn't make me happy, but I'm just doing it. *Now* maybe I'm the one projecting because that was my sitch exactly, and I always felt like karma and I had a lot in common. So karma feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm reading from your posts, and so the advice I give you is the same as that which I received, and which really helped me: don't settle for less, you deserve the best, be strong and focus on yourself. And if I'm wrong and you're happy with beating your head against the wall, like awkward's analogy, then I'll just step away and let you do it because, as many have pointed out, you're not going to stop banging your head until you're ready. I'm sad for you though because I feel you're an intelligent good person and you know this isn't best for you yet you're doing it anyway. So I do hope you get to the place where you can stop. Good luck.

[Star_Bright]

Just an update. Thanks to al who have been posting, both supportive and concerned. I never doubt the sincerity and best wishes for me from this group. I am still talking and seeing him. I am in no current mindset to change that right now. Even my ic supports that, indicating I'm a grown woman who has to make my own choices and do what makes me happy. I was genuinely surprised by her as I was pretty honest on my disclosure with her about the situation. Neither of us are in a place to be able to let go, and history is repeatedly showing me that until we are we will continue the chase. I walked because he wanted to put forth the effort to salvage his m. I didn't want to interfere. It had nothing to do with not wanting him. He's unable to do that. How could he when he has the same desires as me? We agreed nc just isn't going to work...agreed that time apart only makes those desires stronger.

My kids are safe...shielded and oblivious...as is his. My new manta for the time being is to never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

 

Hi karma, thanks for the update.

 

Does this really make you happy? How? He's repeatedly lied to you and told you exactly what he wants you to be: his side piece. How does this make you happy? I just don't understand it.

 

Anyway if you are happy, well, good for you. I truly want you to be happy. Hugs.

 

SB

[jj33]

Starbright I agree with you entirely but everyone comes to their own conclusion in their own time. If someone was self harming in a physical way, there are objective methods of intervention. THe emotional harm we do to ourselves is another story.

 

I think its very normal for people to backslide in the first few months after things "end" because the feelings rational or not have not dissipated. And it takes time to integrate that into your psyche sometimes, to come to your own conclusion that the hurt outweighs the joy.

 

Karma as for your if I think about him every day I am better off in it, I have to say I know how you can think that, I still think that sometimes 3 years later. But when it comes down to it, I know that in actuality the pain was greater going back to something that wasnt fulfilling me than it is having that shadow memory of what was and what I wish still was.

 

Perhaps you are happier being back in it but for me, when I tried giving it another chance in the first few months it was not really the same because I knew in my heart that while I wanted to be with him, the circumstances werent enough for me and they werent going to change so it wasnt a matter of well its like this now but in x months or 2 years it will be different. It was what it was.

 

Pay close attention to what your feelings are telling you Karma. I think what people are trying to tell you is that you are putting off the eventual pain of accepting that this guy isnt ever going to be the man you want him to be in your life. But you can only come to that conclusion when you are ready.

[Ellin]

Wel done Karma. I confess I personally don't see a fairytale ending for you guys - the way things stand. But if you're doing what's best for you, being realistic, and remain in control... well, good for you!

 

My IC said exactly the same actually, said I would walk away when I was ready and if I wasn't ready I was just heaping more pressure and upset on myself. I think if you understand the situation and have a good grasp on things the IC doesn't need to 'work on you' to peel back layers of denial.

 

That's right and it's even worse when other people heap pressure on you, saying things like "you should leave, if you have any self-rescpect", when you're not yet ready to do this. You may end up feeling worse than you would without this sort of "support"; you may come to a conclusion that you are weak and useless, because you cannot leave while others think they should be able to...

[jthorne]

Just an update. Thanks to al who have been posting, both supportive and concerned. I never doubt the sincerity and best wishes for me from this group. I am still talking and seeing him. I am in no current mindset to change that right now. Even my ic supports that, indicating I'm a grown woman who has to make my own choices and do what makes me happy. I was genuinely surprised by her as I was pretty honest on my disclosure with her about the situation. Neither of us are in a place to be able to let go, and history is repeatedly showing me that until we are we will continue the chase. I walked because he wanted to put forth the effort to salvage his m. I didn't want to interfere. It had nothing to do with not wanting him. He's unable to do that. How could he when he has the same desires as me? We agreed nc just isn't going to work...agreed that time apart only makes those desires stronger.

My kids are safe...shielded and oblivious...as is his. My new manta for the time being is to never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

Ok hon. Thanks for the update.

Best of luck to you.

[donnamaybe]

Just an update. Thanks to al who have been posting, both supportive and concerned. I never doubt the sincerity and best wishes for me from this group.

This is for the posters who are claiming that there are inappropriate things being said to the OP in her thread.

 

KTD has made it clear that she wants more than just fun on the side with this man. We ALL know she isn't going to get it.

 

Now one would then have to wonder... who is going to be BETTER support for her LIFE (not just her fling)? Those who say "Oh, just do what you want. If you don't think you're ready to go NC don't" or those who say, "Do it quick and get it over with so you can move on and find someone who will love you wholly?"

 

Simple, really. I'm sure we all want the best for KTD. We all know NC is hard. SOME of us feel it's the best way to go in THIS situation with THIS man.

[Ellin]

I think this is a great analogy. Great post awkward.

 

And for those of you claiming that karma is "believing" in her MM and "loving" him... I call BS. I think you are projecting your own sitch or former sitch onto her. From what I read, this is *not* like greeneyedlady's sitch where her guy was telling her he would leave and backing it up. And from what I read this is *not* like jennie-jennie's sitch where jennie-jennie says that the love she gets from her MM is worth knowing he's not leaving his wife and she's okay with that and happy. Yet jennie-jennie and greeneyedlady are using their own personal sitch to give karma advice as if her sitch is the same. That boggles my mind.

 

I haven't heard karma say her guy told her he is leaving- only that he feels he needs to try to make it work with his supposedly drugged-up pot-selling wife, and that he can only offer karma scraps. I don't hear karma saying she believes in his love, or even that she loves him, or that he is saying he will leave for her or she thinks he is. Nor do I hear karma saying she is happy with this relationship and the love she gets from MM is worth not having what she really wants and she's happy with things like they are.

 

I only hear karma saying, well, I know this sitch isn't good for me, but I've resigned myself to staying in it for now, because I just can't break free from it. I've heard her say something along the lines of, I'm being honest that we are back in contact but I know it's not what I should be doing or what I want to be doing, and it doesn't make me happy, but I'm just doing it. *Now* maybe I'm the one projecting because that was my sitch exactly, and I always felt like karma and I had a lot in common. So karma feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm reading from your posts, and so the advice I give you is the same as that which I received, and which really helped me: don't settle for less, you deserve the best, be strong and focus on yourself. And if I'm wrong and you're happy with beating your head against the wall, like awkward's analogy, then I'll just step away and let you do it because, as many have pointed out, you're not going to stop banging your head until you're ready. I'm sad for you though because I feel you're an intelligent good person and you know this isn't best for you yet you're doing it anyway. So I do hope you get to the place where you can stop. Good luck.

 

TBH I think you might be projecting your own sitch here, just like you think OW who are happy with their sitch are doing, and I'd like to add that in the same way it can be argued that all those who encourage her to leave are projecting their own problems, for example having been "strong" and left only to find themselves regret this decision or being unsure about it, as they never found their happiness after leaving anyway, or those who've been dumped by MM and regret ever being in an A, or those who were BS etc...

 

When it comes to banging one's head against the wall, in itself it is a stupid, ridiculous thing to do that serve no meaningful purpose and it's obvioulsy completely different from complex emotions involved in a romantic relationship, even an unhappy one. To say that this is what Karma is doing is rather patronising and offensive.

 

Perhaps it would be argued that it has similarities to self-harming, although self-harming is done to relieve other sort of pain, an unbearable emotional pain, so it would not be helpful to say to a person engaging in these practices to just stop doing it, and it would be counterproductive to make them feel bad in any way about doing it. The original problem they are dealing with has to be addressed first. And anyhow, this is still not the same as being in a bad R and finding it hard to leave. Just like addiction to substances is a different things, even though many on this board like to treat these things as identical.

 

In any case, implying that Karma is banging her head against the wall is offensive, because it implies she is not in control of herself, cannot think for herself and be in the slightest bit rational, and others have to tell her what to do in order to save her from herself.

 

She's an adult and a one that is capable of making her own choices. She doesn't say she's helpless and wants to leave but can't and is expecting others to save her. She says this is what she's decided to do for now.

[Ellin]

This is for the posters who are claiming that there are inappropriate things being said to the OP in her thread.

 

KTD has made it clear that she wants more than just fun on the side with this man. We ALL know she isn't going to get it.

 

Now one would then have to wonder... who is going to be BETTER support for her LIFE (not just her fling)? Those who say "Oh, just do what you want. If you don't think you're ready to go NC don't" or those who say, "Do it quick and get it over with so you can move on and find someone who will love you wholly?"

 

Simple, really. I'm sure we all want the best for KTD. We all know NC is hard. SOME of us feel it's the best way to go in THIS situation with THIS man.

 

How do you do it quick and get over it when you feel such strong emotions towards someone, do you think that forcing oneself to go NC is going to make it quick? If someone's not ready it can only prolong the time they will be hooked on MM. Sometimes staying close to the source of the problems can help you find a solution quicker.

 

And is it so easy to just move on and find someone who will love you wholly? Is the world out there full of knights in the shining armor just waiting to sweep you off your feet and give you the world? And they are great in any way? Only in fairy tales. The real world is full of people with problems, messed up emotionally and in difficult situation, with baggage of one sort or another.

 

It's not as if all you have to do is get over the MM and you'll be happy ever after. Even if you find a single guy he might give you a huge heartbreak just the same.

 

And people cannot switch off feelings. Now Karma has feelings for this man and she's choosing to stick with it for the time being. She know what she's doing and knows that she may end up hurt again. But no one's to say that she won't be hurt and will be happy any time soon if she cuts him off.

[donnamaybe]

I'd like to add that in the same way it can be argued that all those who encourage her to leave are projecting their own problems, for example having been "strong" and left only to find themselves regret this decision or being unsure about it, as they never found their happiness after leaving anyway, or those who've been dumped by MM and regret ever being in an A, or those who were BS etc...

I, personally, am encouraging her to move on BECAUSE I HAVE A WONDERFUL MAN ALL TO MYSELF - and she can have the same.

[Star_Bright]

TBH I think you might be projecting your own sitch here, just like you think OW who are happy with their sitch are doing, and I'd like to add that in the same way it can be argued that all those who encourage her to leave are projecting their own problems, for example having been "strong" and left only to find themselves regret this decision or being unsure about it, as they never found their happiness after leaving anyway, or those who've been dumped by MM and regret ever being in an A, or those who were BS etc...

 

When it comes to banging one's head against the wall, in itself it is a stupid, ridiculous thing to do that serve no meaningful purpose and it's obvioulsy completely different from complex emotions involved in a romantic relationship, even an unhappy one. To say that this is what Karma is doing is rather patronising and offensive.

 

Perhaps it would be argued that it has similarities to self-harming, although self-harming is done to relieve other sort of pain, an unbearable emotional pain, so it would not be helpful to say to a person engaging in these practices to just stop doing it, and it would be counterproductive to make them feel bad in any way about doing it. The original problem they are dealing with has to be addressed first. And anyhow, this is still not the same as being in a bad R and finding it hard to leave. Just like addiction to substances is a different things, even though many on this board like to treat these things as identical.

 

In any case, implying that Karma is banging her head against the wall is offensive, because it implies she is not in control of herself, cannot think for herself and be in the slightest bit rational, and others have to tell her what to do in order to save her from herself.

 

She's an adult and a one that is capable of making her own choices. She doesn't say she's helpless and wants to leave but can't and is expecting others to save her. She says this is what she's decided to do for now.

 

I respect your opinion Ellin and perhaps, as I admitted earlier, I *am* projecting my own sitch onto her. But if you are implying with the bolded part that I regret walking away from exMM, you are incorrect, because I feel 100% it was the best decision for me (and, yes, I feel that the best decision for any OW who is unhappy in her relationship is to not settle for less than she knows she deserves, and walk away). And I don't know of any former OWs who have been giving karma advice in this thread that regret their decision and never found happiness after leaving. ?? So I'm not sure where that is coming from if it wasn't aimed at me.

 

But anyway I believe from reading karma's posts (*not* relying on my own experience) that she knows this is not best for her long-term yet she keeps doing it anyway. To each her own! So I do not agree that me saying that karma is beating her head against the wall is patronizing or offensive... it is just my opinion, meant to help her, not hurt her. I think we are all entitled to our own opinions. I make sure not to say anything I don't think isn't nice or said out of a helpful spirit... so if I sounded patronizing or offensive to karma (who hasn't said that), it was not my intent. I don't see how I or anyone else has said anything regarding karma leaving her MM for good that not intended to help. And I sure don't want to fight with anyone. Have a good afternoon.

 

ETA -- I am only giving karma the very same advice and opinion that I would give my own sister who is the love of my life and who I care about very very very much. And, I should add, it's the same advice and opinion that my sister gave me when I was an OW, because she feels the same way about me. *Not* because she was trying to be patronizing or offensive... but because she cared and knew I deserved better.

[Star_Bright]

And people cannot switch off feelings.

 

Right, but I am encouraging karma to follow her head/gut *over* her feelings. Because not all feelings are feelings we should pursue, if they take us to a place that's not good for us...

 

Plus to me karma sounds really confused about her feelings. One minute she's happy and strong without MM in her life, then he contacts her and she sways and now she's staying with him for the time being while admitting it's like a narcotic... so feelings are very unpredictable and can get jumbled, so I think it's better to go with common sense and logic.

[Ellin]

I, personally, am encouraging her to move on BECAUSE I HAVE A WONDERFUL MAN ALL TO MYSELF - and she can have the same.

 

That's great, Donna, I'm happy for you. I wonder, though, why you spend so much time on this forum, not having ever been affected by any issues related to an A and being so happy and content with your life.

 

You're obvioulsy entitled to posting here and you don't have to give me any reasons, I just can't help wondering.

[jthorne]

That's great, Donna, I'm happy for you. I wonder, though, why you spend so much time on this forum, not having ever been affected by any issues related to an A and being so happy and content with your life.

 

You're obvioulsy entitled to posting here and you don't have to give me any reasons, I just can't help wondering.

Why? Are you looking for a way to discredit her?

[Ellin]

I respect your opinion Ellin and perhaps, as I admitted earlier, I *am* projecting my own sitch onto her. But if you are implying with the bolded part that I regret walking away from exMM, you are incorrect, because I feel 100% it was the best decision for me (and, yes, I feel that the best decision for any OW who is unhappy in her relationship is to not settle for less than she knows she deserves, and walk away). And I don't know of any former OWs who have been giving karma advice in this thread that regret their decision and never found happiness after leaving. ?? So I'm not sure where that is coming from if it wasn't aimed at me.

 

But anyway I believe from reading karma's posts (*not* relying on my own experience) that she knows this is not best for her long-term yet she keeps doing it anyway. To each her own! So I do not agree that me saying that karma is beating her head against the wall is patronizing or offensive... it is just my opinion, meant to help her, not hurt her. I think we are all entitled to our own opinions. I make sure not to say anything I don't think isn't nice or said out of a helpful spirit... so if I sounded patronizing or offensive to karma (who hasn't said that), it was not my intent. I don't see how I or anyone else has said anything regarding karma leaving her MM for good that not intended to help. And I sure don't want to fight with anyone. Have a good afternoon.

 

ETA -- I am only giving karma the very same advice and opinion that I would give my own sister who is the love of my life and who I care about very very very much. And, I should add, it's the same advice and opinion that my sister gave me when I was an OW, because she feels the same way about me. *Not* because she was trying to be patronizing or offensive... but because she cared and knew I deserved better.

 

SB, sorry if anything I wrote upset you, I didn't mean to cause any upset and I didn't mean to imply anything about your personal situation, but most people's advice is biased because of their experience, no matter which position they write from.

 

Also it is very important to remember that the way one person coped with a problem might not be at all suitable for another person with a similar problem. Everyone is unique with their personalities, histories and ways of dealing and coping with difficulties.

 

Karma, like myself, have been in bad R in the past and still finds herself in one that is very problematic. Cutting herself off from this man might not be a solution for her at all. Clearly there is something in her (like in me) that makes her end up in these situations. So it might as well be the case with the next man in her life, if she now went NC with this MM.

 

She needs to work through her issues and sometimes staying in the situation allows you to learn your lessons more efficiently than being away from it.

 

The bottom line is, the choices regarding her life belong to her and this should be respected.

 

I know that you have the best intentions and I don't doubt it.

[Ellin]

Why? Are you looking for a way to discredit her?

No. I'm just wondering because it's a bit unusual.

 

Why does it bother you?

[Silly_Girl]

Why? Are you looking for a way to discredit her?

 

On forums like this it's natural to wonder 'what's your story?'. Is it offensive to ask? There are such emotive, intense, sometimes traumatic scenarios being discussed, it would seem odd if someone with zero experience were to consistently offer advice on no basis.

 

And I am not talking necessarily about DM here, I'm thinking forums in general. I used a support forum very heavily for 2-3 years in the past, and inputs were taken very seriously indeed; if a regular poster had no experience in the arena they were posting in, they'd have been discouraged from posting by the mods and long-time veterans.

[donnamaybe]

That's great, Donna, I'm happy for you. I wonder, though, why you spend so much time on this forum, not having ever been affected by any issues related to an A and being so happy and content with your life.

 

You're obvioulsy entitled to posting here and you don't have to give me any reasons, I just can't help wondering.

It pains me to see what are SOME obviously bright and most likely caring young women getting wrapped up in a dead end situation with a selfish man. If there is anything I can say that will help give them the strength to move on to something better, I intend to say it, and I don't need anyone's permission to do so.

 

Any other questions?

[donnamaybe]

The bottom line is, the choices regarding her life belong to her and this should be respected.

This is absolutely true. I think we should also assume that KTD is intelligent enough to take what advice she finds valuable and leave the rest. I doubt she needs anyone acting as her personal "information filter." She seems to have enough going on upstairs to take care of that all by herself.

[donnamaybe]

On forums like this it's natural to wonder 'what's your story?'. Is it offensive to ask?

It's curious, however, that the ONLY people who ask are those who disagree with your opinion.

[jwi71]

KTD if you are still perusing this thread I would like to ask a few Q's.

 

1) What changed that allowed you to go back?

2) Did you ever pull the police report (public record) pertaining to the events of that night?

3) What do you expect to get out of this R?

4) What line, if any, exists that truly makes you turn tail and run?

5) If you could script how this A ends what would you write?

[jthorne]

No. I'm just wondering because it's a bit unusual.

 

Why does it bother you?

I disagree with you that it's unusual. There are people here from all walks of life that post.

 

It bothers me when people waste the OP's time on petty stuff that has nothing to do with her situation, and provides no value to her.

It's curious, however, that the ONLY people who ask are those who disagree with your opinion.

Agreed.

 

I thought Tony always told us to direct our responses to the OP or the OP's updates. Bickering amongst one another simply bogs a thread down. So, my apologies karma, for participating in that.

[whichwayisup]

She broke NC by answering his call. Up until she picked up the phone, they were still NC. She had a choice. Not finger pointing, but she needs to realize her own accountability in this situation as well.

 

You are right. I think I forgot to put in there that she wasn't the one who broke down and called him first. Yes, she could have chosen to ignore him, ignore the call/text and stay in NC mode, but obviously now that isn't the case.

 

K, I wish you the best, even though I find it odd that your therapist hasn't advised you to RUN from this situation and your MM, I'm quite surprised she hasn't tried to discourage you and make you see that you're making the same mistakes and choices as before as well as the drama you are now bringing back into your life, that whole addictive thing you mentioned in the past, the unhealthiness of it all.

 

Shield your heart and keep your eyes open.

[Ellin]

This is absolutely true. I think we should also assume that KTD is intelligent enough to take what advice she finds valuable and leave the rest. I doubt she needs anyone acting as her personal "information filter." She seems to have enough going on upstairs to take care of that all by herself.

 

This discussion was well under-way before I joined it, it has actually gone one for most of this thread. It started by someone who criticized the advice given to Karma, which said it was ok to suspend NC, so direct your comments about information filter to that person. And it happened AFTER Karma said that she had made her decision about not going back to NC for now.

 

Some posters just couldn't seem to accept Karma's decision and anyone else supporting her in it.