Was doing so good...now he has broken nc at 18 days

[Ellin]

It's curious, however, that the ONLY people who ask are those who disagree with your opinion.

 

Obviously those who feel that their views are supported by you won't ask you many questions.

 

It is a valid point, though, that it would be useful in a person giving advice to have had some sort of experience with the problem concerned.

 

Imagine someone who's had no experience with alcohol and addiction whatsoever going to an AA meeting and telling the members that they deserve better and should stop drinking, just like that. Do you think they could provide any significant help?

[jthorne]

Obviously those who feel that their views are supported by you won't ask you many questions.

 

It is a valid point, though, that it would be useful in a person giving advice to have had some sort of experience with the problem concerned.

 

Imagine someone who's had no experience with alcohol and addiction whatsoever going to an AA meeting and telling the members that they deserve better and should stop drinking, just like that. Do you think they could provide any significant help?

Yes. Common sense goes a long way.

[whichwayisup]

Imagine someone who's had no experience with alcohol and addiction whatsoever going to an AA meeting and telling the members that they deserve better and should stop drinking, just like that. Do you think they could provide any significant help?

 

Actually yes. Empathy, kindness and understanding. Just because one may not have experienced something firsthand doesn't mean their advice or support isn't any less important or more important than someone who has gone through it. Just a different perspective, that's all.

 

As long as the advice is heartfelt and respectful, it shouldn't MATTER if the person has gone through it or not. It's absolutely ridiculous to tell anybody not to post their thoughts, and yes, I'm reading between the lines here.

[Silly_Girl]

It does make a difference actually, speaking as someone who at times has desperately needed advice and support.

 

That's not to say that the other input is dispensable, or not valued, but the advice from the BTDT'ers is hugely important.

[jthorne]

Kool and the Gang. We're sorted then. When in trouble, and don't know who to turn to, have no one in real life, at a low ebb, wonder who might understand... who might be someone you feel confident in confiding in?... Oh yes. The first person who shows some common sense. Job's a good'un.

*shrug* That's who I go to. I respect people that have common sense and good reason over people that might, say, blow smoke any day. But that's just me, and to each his own. That's why all are allowed to post here as long as they conform to the guidelines.

[whichwayisup]

It does make a difference actually, speaking as someone who at times has desperately needed advice and support.

 

That's not to say that the other input is dispensable, or not valued, but the advice from the BTDT'ers is hugely important.

 

Yes it makes a difference, but the point that was being made more or less said, atleast to ME, was: Anybody who hasn't gone through x,y, or z isn't worthy of giving advice and should keep their mouth shut.

 

It may not be the support you were lookin for, but it still could be helpful and beneficial at some point in time. To fluff it off because the person giving the advice hasn't gone through it firsthand, isn't right either.

[woinlove]

It is a valid point, though, that it would be useful in a person giving advice to have had some sort of experience with the problem concerned.

 

Imagine someone who's had no experience with alcohol and addiction whatsoever going to an AA meeting and telling the members that they deserve better and should stop drinking, just like that. Do you think they could provide any significant help?

 

No, it is not a valid point. People's posts should stand on their own merits, by the content of their post, not by the personal lives of the poster.

 

A 60 year old virgin nun would be unlikely to provide the most useful advice here, but if we need to be told she is a 60 year old virgin nun to decide that her posts aren't useful, then either we are completely clueless and any advice is wasted or that nun learned a hell of a lot from counselling others.

[fooled once]

What is it that her children had to endure???

 

Incindently, like others I think this sort of aatitude is totally unhelpful. I asked you on another thread what your idea of support was, but sadly you refused to explain.

 

And by the way, I also strongly believe that premature NC can do more harm than good. "Premature" means the persin in question is not ready. You say she has had her closure because MM chose W, but she clearly hasn't. She won't find closure just because someone looking at it from "the outside" thinks this is the right time for it.

 

Everyone deals with things in their own way and learn their lessons at their own pace, and actually has to directly experience everything to have the best learning opportunity.

 

If you have a question for me, PM me. This thread is about Karma. No one said you have to agree with my advice. Ignore it since it bothers you. But my posts are no less valuable than yours.

 

Honestly if you have read Karma's posts and the way she describes MM's words and actions, does even one person here truly believe that MM is going to change anytime soon?

 

The advice and support I provide to Karma may not be what she wants to hear but I truly believe it is healthy advice or I wouldn't give it. I don't post to hurt OW.

 

If Karma was your daughter and you were aware of how MM treats her and behaves, would you advise your daughter to keep contact with him until she is ready? What if that contact just caused her more pain? When would it be enough for you to advise your daughter to get out of this toxic relationship? I am not being a bitch here. I'm really curious as to what type of advice each person here would give their daughter in this EXACT situation because we are only discussing Karma and her situation in this thread not extra-marital relationships in general.

 

Yes endings hurt. But sometimes it is in a person's best interest to end. I'm curious as to when it is ok to advise others to end. Advising Karma to end isn't going to make her end nor will it mean we won't support her if she doesn't end, but advising her to continue with "this MM" , honestly I just don't get it. Karma reads the replies here and thinks about what we say. She isn't the type to put her fingers in her ears and only read the good stuff.

 

((Karma)) I'm sorry that MM contacted you. I hope you come back soon.

 

Totally agree!

 

We know enough about the SITUATION to know that the SITUATION is toxic for her. That's fairly obvious given the information she's provided.

 

This is a fundamental difference in mindset. Because for many of us, the best support to give someone who is in a bad/toxic/painful situation is to remove themselves from the situation, rather than suggest they remain there and hope that things get better on their own.

 

Supporting someone "where they're at" often isn't the right answer. That "where they're at" is the source of the problem...if they don't change that, then there's no solution.

 

If you want something to change...you have to initiate change. Most posters come here for advice wanting something to change.

 

Great post Owl. We can only go by what information is given. We have been given information that the wife is "toxic" (by some posters standards). Yet the MM stays with his wife. He chooses to live in a drug filled home with a wife who allegedly hit him. And he told Karma he wanted to have her around for when he needs his needs met.

 

Just an update. Thanks to al who have been posting, both supportive and concerned. I never doubt the sincerity and best wishes for me from this group. I am still talking and seeing him. I am in no current mindset to change that right now. Even my ic supports that, indicating I'm a grown woman who has to make my own choices and do what makes me happy. I was genuinely surprised by her as I was pretty honest on my disclosure with her about the situation. Neither of us are in a place to be able to let go, and history is repeatedly showing me that until we are we will continue the chase. I walked because he wanted to put forth the effort to salvage his m. I didn't want to interfere. It had nothing to do with not wanting him. He's unable to do that. How could he when he has the same desires as me? We agreed nc just isn't going to work...agreed that time apart only makes those desires stronger.

My kids are safe...shielded and oblivious...as is his. My new manta for the time being is to never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

 

Karma, thank you for posting and for saying you welcome ALL advice given, not just from certain posters who think others who are encouraging you to not go back are wrong. Thank you for saying this.

 

Thank you also for the update on your kids. Mom to mom - I think you can understand why I brought up them. I am glad they are being shielded from the drama and I hope that when the Wife finds out you are still in the picture, she doesn't go after them or try to hurt them. If she is as toxic as we are led to believe, she could do this.

 

 

At least you know where you stand.

 

What makes me most angry about this situation is that you spent a long hard time mourning this guy, making his loss a major part of your day, not hearing from him, struggling to get by, scraping your way toward some level of healing. You worked so hard.

 

All he had to do to dismantle you was show up on your doorstep after all that time wanting sex and knowing he would get it. It was that easy. He didn't have to work at all to put you right back in your place. Only this time, he has manipulated you into not only accepting the very bare minimum that he has to offer you, he has convinced you to accept this as "happiness".

 

I am certain he is relieved that you will not try to interfere with his marriage anymore.

 

What I wish for you is that it hadn't been so easy for him. It burns me up to see how easy it is for MP to manipulate OP into accepting what they would NEVER accept from a single person. You worked so hard, but for what?

 

That said - just watch out for the wife. If she is as unstable as he says and in the ways you have outlined in your threads, it may be your window she is crashing into next. And... when the sh*t hits that fan, guess whose side the MM will be on?

 

It sounds like that at least you know the score now. Just don't forget where his loyalties ultimately lie.

 

Good post. You are right. She knows exactly where she stands - as the mistress to a man who chose to make his marriage work with his wife who had 10 lbs of drugs in their home.

 

I think this is a great analogy. Great post awkward.

 

And for those of you claiming that karma is "believing" in her MM and "loving" him... I call BS. I think you are projecting your own sitch or former sitch onto her. From what I read, this is *not* like greeneyedlady's sitch where her guy was telling her he would leave and backing it up. And from what I read this is *not* like jennie-jennie's sitch where jennie-jennie says that the love she gets from her MM is worth knowing he's not leaving his wife and she's okay with that and happy. Yet jennie-jennie and greeneyedlady are using their own personal sitch to give karma advice as if her sitch is the same. That boggles my mind.

 

I haven't heard karma say her guy told her he is leaving- only that he feels he needs to try to make it work with his supposedly drugged-up pot-selling wife, and that he can only offer karma scraps. I don't hear karma saying she believes in his love, or even that she loves him, or that he is saying he will leave for her or she thinks he is. Nor do I hear karma saying she is happy with this relationship and the love she gets from MM is worth not having what she really wants and she's happy with things like they are.

 

I only hear karma saying, well, I know this sitch isn't good for me, but I've resigned myself to staying in it for now, because I just can't break free from it. I've heard her say something along the lines of, I'm being honest that we are back in contact but I know it's not what I should be doing or what I want to be doing, and it doesn't make me happy, but I'm just doing it. *Now* maybe I'm the one projecting because that was my sitch exactly, and I always felt like karma and I had a lot in common. So karma feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm reading from your posts, and so the advice I give you is the same as that which I received, and which really helped me: don't settle for less, you deserve the best, be strong and focus on yourself. And if I'm wrong and you're happy with beating your head against the wall, like awkward's analogy, then I'll just step away and let you do it because, as many have pointed out, you're not going to stop banging your head until you're ready. I'm sad for you though because I feel you're an intelligent good person and you know this isn't best for you yet you're doing it anyway. So I do hope you get to the place where you can stop. Good luck.

 

Excellent post SB. EXCELLENT. Please keep posting. Your opinions are just as valuable as everyone else's. Please don't stop giving your views!

 

It does make a difference actually, speaking as someone who at times has desperately needed advice and support.

 

That's not to say that the other input is dispensable, or not valued, but the advice from the BTDT'ers is hugely important.

 

??? So those of us who have BTDT, our advice is welcome? Good to know!

 

Can we focus on KARMA and stop deciding who can and can't post and whose opinion is valuable and whose isn't?

[GreenEyedLady]

Can we focus on KARMA and stop deciding who can and can't post and whose opinion is valuable and whose isn't?

 

I'm sorry. I thought that's what we were doing.

 

Just because posters don't give the advice that YOU think is valuable, doesn't mean that they are not posting in Karma's best interest.

 

I don't give cookie cutter advice. I post for people to do what THEY think they should and what they can live with. I don't care who agrees with what I post. I post from the heart and not from the NC or die stance which is widely practiced here.

 

GEL

[pureinheart]

That's great, Donna, I'm happy for you. I wonder, though, why you spend so much time on this forum, not having ever been affected by any issues related to an A and being so happy and content with your life.

 

You're obvioulsy entitled to posting here and you don't have to give me any reasons, I just can't help wondering.

 

I've been wondering the same thing, not so much about Donna, but others. I just remember when I was working, even with periods of being single, I didn't have the time to be on the boards continuously.

 

 

Why? Are you looking for a way to discredit her?

 

 

Ellin has a right to ask questions.

 

 

I thought Tony always told us to direct our responses to the OP or the OP's updates. Bickering amongst one another simply bogs a thread down.

 

:lmao:........

 

 

A poster made a comment stating that KTD has already been told the same opinion of him being a waste of time blah, blah, blah. I agree that she has got that.

 

KTD, like I said prior, I am not a big fan of NC. There are cases in which it is a reality that must be addressed.

 

My advice would be to do all things according to it's time, you will know when the time is right.

 

I remember knowing that I would have to D my last exH, although it was all about timing, I just wasn't ready and was very weak and felt priddy beat up after a number of happenings.

 

It may not be time, you may not have the strength or whatever...time is on YOUR side:)

[pureinheart]

I'm sorry. I thought that's what we were doing.

 

Just because posters don't give the advice that YOU think is valuable, doesn't mean that they are not posting in Karma's best interest.

 

I don't give cookie cutter advice. I post for people to do what THEY think they should and what they can live with. I don't care who agrees with what I post. I post from the heart and not from the NC or die stance which is widely practiced here.

 

GEL

 

I would like to know when there has been an actual free flowing thread in this forum, where decent advice can be given without the "cookie cutter" comments...you know your in an A, your cheating, your this, your that...don't you know they're M...DUHHHHHHH

 

GEL, it is about what the poster can live with...it's not about my morals, it's not about anything but the poster.

[BB07]

Karma.........this is for you.

 

There have been some good posts in this thread and there have been some going back and forth about what is the right advice to give you and it's been debated and hey that isn't a bad thing. Anyway..........what I wanted to say is based on your history here and what you've told us about your mm and you.

 

I'm afraid you are riding a train wreck right now and you know it deep inside, but you aren't ready to get off yet.........and hey I've been there and most of the other posters have too. It's not a good feeling to know in your own gut that you are going to hurt yourself more but sometimes we aren't ready to get off the train yet...........so when you are, we are still here for you.

 

Hugs Karma.........and you'll find your way back to yourself and you'll do the right thing for YOU.

[KarmasTestDummy]

There is a public warrant out for the bs, for those who have been accusing mm for being a liar.

 

Charges/Dispositions

Count Type Code Section Charge Description Charge Disposition Disposition Date

001 M HS 11357© POSSESS MARIJUANA OVER 28.5 GRAMS * *

[desertIslandCactus]

There is a public warrant out for the bs, for those who have been accusing mm for being a liar.

 

Charges/Dispositions

Count Type Code Section Charge Description Charge Disposition Disposition Date

001 M HS 11357© POSSESS MARIJUANA OVER 28.5 GRAMS * *

 

What would the penalty be if she is arrested .. would she be imprisoned or fined..

[whichwayisup]

Count Type Code Section Charge Description Charge Disposition Disposition Date

001 M HS 11357© POSSESS MARIJUANA OVER 28.5 GRAMS

 

So there is a warrant out for her arrest and this is what she is going to be charged with?

 

Does this mean that she is not in the house, living with him and the kids? Has she taken off, or run away?

 

Just wondering about the timing of all this..Now that he has contacted you again..

[whichwayisup]

The point Karma, is you have always been above this nonsense.

 

Sweetie; Don't assume this is your life.

 

Yes, don't make HIS life YOUR life. Don't make him the centre of your universe, this whole thing has the potiental to blow up again like last time. Keep in mind that HE admitted to you that he is addicted to the drama as well, hense him going back home, being with his wife. You know he has deep issues, as well, so again, protect your heart, live your life too! Be around your friends, be with your kids, your family..

[LucreziaBorgia]

There is a public warrant out for the bs, for those who have been accusing mm for being a liar.

 

Charges/Dispositions

Count Type Code Section Charge Description Charge Disposition Disposition Date

001 M HS 11357© POSSESS MARIJUANA OVER 28.5 GRAMS * *

 

Lying or not, he still chose to be with her. I have very little doubt he will do whatever it takes to bail her out, as well. I have a hard time believing that a man who has that sort of codependent attachment to his wife will simply walk away from her.

 

As for the charges, a good lawyer can get her out of the worst of it by pleading her case as a mother, and getting her into a treatment program in lieu of a sentence. I wouldn't count on an automatic ten year bid.

 

I have no doubt he has feelings for you. That does not negate the attachment he has to his wife though. Re-read TOW dipper. Your MM is a classic case.

[desertIslandCactus]

Lying or not, he still chose to be with her. I have very little doubt he will do whatever it takes to bail her out, as well. I have a hard time believing that a man who has that sort of codependent attachment to his wife will simply walk away from her.

 

As for the charges, a good lawyer can get her out of the worst of it by pleading her case as a mother, and getting her into a treatment program in lieu of a sentence. I wouldn't count on an automatic ten year bid.

 

I have no doubt he has feelings for you. That does not negate the attachment he has to his wife though. Re-read TOW dipper. Your MM is a classic case.

 

These psychological terms are b.s. She is his Wife for heavens sake .. the mother of his children. Of course it is expected he be there for her.

[jennie-jennie]

Just an update. Thanks to al who have been posting, both supportive and concerned. I never doubt the sincerity and best wishes for me from this group. I am still talking and seeing him. I am in no current mindset to change that right now. Even my ic supports that, indicating I'm a grown woman who has to make my own choices and do what makes me happy. I was genuinely surprised by her as I was pretty honest on my disclosure with her about the situation. Neither of us are in a place to be able to let go, and history is repeatedly showing me that until we are we will continue the chase. I walked because he wanted to put forth the effort to salvage his m. I didn't want to interfere. It had nothing to do with not wanting him. He's unable to do that. How could he when he has the same desires as me? We agreed nc just isn't going to work...agreed that time apart only makes those desires stronger.

My kids are safe...shielded and oblivious...as is his. My new manta for the time being is to never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

 

Interesting how similar Karma's counselor's advice was to mine!

[donnamaybe]

Yes. Common sense goes a long way.

Yeah. I don't have to be a burn victim to know not to stick my hand in the fire.

[donnamaybe]

It does make a difference actually, speaking as someone who at times has desperately needed advice and support.

 

That's not to say that the other input is dispensable, or not valued, but the advice from the BTDT'ers is hugely important.

But the BTSDT'ers (Been There Still Doing That) may not be as valid because of the "can't see the forest for the trees" aspect. BUT - I wouldn't question their right to speak their piece. I may state why I feel someone's opinion is wrong, but that is my right as it is just my opinion, and everyone is free to share their opinions.

[jthorne]

There is a public warrant out for the bs, for those who have been accusing mm for being a liar.

 

Charges/Dispositions

Count Type Code Section Charge Description Charge Disposition Disposition Date

001 M HS 11357© POSSESS MARIJUANA OVER 28.5 GRAMS * *

California Law:

 

Possession of more than 28.5g of marijuana results in a misdemeanor charge, a $500 fine and up to 6 months in jail. While possessing less than 28.5g of marijuana does not normally result in an arrest in California, if this occurs on school grounds then the offense results in up to 10 days in jail and a $500 fine.

 

In the US, I assume CA law is the most lenient. So if this is not occurring in California, the penalites could be higher.

 

 

From what I've read of your past posts, you have admitted to being somewhat addicted to drama. It looks like that's exactly what you've got.

 

Please keep us updated, and good luck!

[jennie-jennie]

Yeah. I don't have to be a burn victim to know not to stick my hand in the fire.

 

But you probably need to be a burn victim to understand the extent of dealing with the consequences of burn wounds - both mental, emotional and physical.

[donnamaybe]

I post from the heart and not from the NC or die stance which is widely practiced here.

So do I. Have you read all the info on this situation? I have, thus, I recommend staying the HELL away from all of it. For Karma's sake.

Edited November 9, 2010 by donnamaybe

[jennie-jennie]

Yeah. I don't have to be a burn victim to know not to stick my hand in the fire.

 

But the BTSDT'ers (Been There Still Doing That) may not be as valid because of the "can't see the forest for the trees" aspect. BUT - I wouldn't question their right to speak their piece. I may state why I feel someone's opinion is wrong, but that is my right as it is just my opinion, and everyone is free to share their opinions.

 

But the only advice you can give then is to not do it. Many OW need advice how to make the best of the situation while they are in it, since they choose to stay in the extramarital relationship.