Was doing so good...now he has broken nc at 18 days

[BB07]

These psychological terms are b.s. She is his Wife for heavens sake .. the mother of his children. Of course it is expected he be there for her.

 

I don't believe LucreziaBorgia is speaking to the wife's position in this, she is speaking to Karma and how the dynamic affects her position and it's a warning to Karma. Also.........Lucrezia is trying to make it clear to Karma that mm has deep and problematic issues.

[desertIslandCactus]

I don't believe LucreziaBorgia is speaking to the wife's position in this, she is speaking to Karma and how the dynamic affects her position and it's a warning to Karma. Also.........Lucrezia is trying to make it clear to Karma that mm has deep and problematic issues.

 

I was speaking to the term "codependent attachment" as baloney in Rationalizing the husband wife relationship..

 

Try ignore.

[BB07]

I was speaking to the term "codependent attachment" as baloney in Rationalizing the husband wife relationship..

 

Try ignore.

 

Wow........DIC! I didn't realize that you thought my opinions were soo.........well whatever it is you think.

[donnamaybe]

But the only advice you can give then is to not do it. Many OW need advice how to make the best of the situation while they are in it, since they choose to stay in the extramarital relationship.

That is the advice I gave HER because THIS situation, IMO, warrants it. To "teach" a person how to make do in a situation that could harm her rather than tell her to withdraw is bad advice - again, JMO.

[jthorne]

That is the advice I gave HER because THIS situation, IMO, warrants it. To "teach" a person how to make do in a situation that could harm her rather than tell her to withdraw is bad advice - again, JMO.

I agree, but I don't think you need to bother defending your position.

 

I'm really confused about all the drama. I don't think anyone here wants anything bad to happen to karma. Everyone (I think) posts from the heart, what they personally think is best for her, regardless of their past experiences. As long as this is an open forum, everyone is welcome to post. Some don't agree with my advice, I don't agree with some other's advice.

 

SO WHAT?

 

It's almost as if one "side" is threatened by the opposing "side". That's silly and unfortunate, because our OP is caught in the middle. What's wrong with everyone pleading their case to the OP, and leaving the infighting aside? After all, it's the OP that's here asking for perspective.

[Owl]

But the only advice you can give then is to not do it. Many OW need advice how to make the best of the situation while they are in it, since they choose to stay in the extramarital relationship.

 

Sometimes the best advice/support is to help the person asking for support to make better choices, rather than to teach them to try to "make the best" of a bad situation.

 

However...I also recognize that we're almost certainly not going to convince each other to change our views on what "support" should be here....so wouldn't it be better for all of us if we stop trying to tell each other what "support" they should offer and just let each person offer the support they think is best?

 

In that vein...

 

KTD, I saw that you posted she's got a warrant out for her arrest...which I don't see as a bad thing in the long run. What's going on with MM? Where's his head in all of this?

[YellowShark]

Sometimes the best advice/support is to help the person asking for support to make better choices, rather than to teach them to try to "make the best" of a bad situation.

 

I agree 100%. A true friend would call a spade a spade and seek to guide their wayward friend onto a path that is healthy. (..rather than "making the best" of an unhealthy, potentially disastrous situation.)

[Star_Bright]

I agree 100%. A true friend would call a spade a spade and seek to guide their wayward friend onto a path that is healthy. (..rather than "making the best" of an unhealthy, potentially disastrous situation.)

 

I agree! I don't understand why some people are encouraging Karma to stay in this obviously unhealthy situation. And for the record, of course a counselor is going to say that... a counselor's job is to listen and not judge or try to change but instead to help the person come to their own conclusions and find their own way... if Karma's own way is to stay with this drama-fueled lying using-her MM, so be it, I can't change it but I'm certainly not going to encourage it and I'm not her counselor so luckily I don't have to say "Okay dear whatever makes you happy." No way.

 

I'm getting frustrated with everyone fighting about what our advice and opinions should be when common sense says RUN KARMA RUN. So I will end with RUN KARMA RUN and step out of this thread, like I did Karma's last thread, for good. It's too frustrating! Yes I know everyone comes to their own conclusions in their own way... but Karma has been run over by this train and she's standing there in the tracks again and I'm tired of watching the movie that keeps having a really bad ending. There is nothing else I can say and she obviously doesn't want to hear it.

 

So good luck Karma, I wish you all the best. I remember that at one point quite recently you wanted a better life for yourself by your own admission and so I hope you can find it.

[LucreziaBorgia]

These psychological terms are b.s. She is his Wife for heavens sake .. the mother of his children. Of course it is expected he be there for her.

 

There is more to the story than just being married to her. He is attached to her in some very unhealthy ways, all marital bonds aside (if he has been truthful to KTD about it, that is.)

 

I was speaking to the term "codependent attachment" as baloney in Rationalizing the husband wife relationship..

 

Apparently, the wife is prone to violence, impulsive behavior, cheats constantly, has a drug problem, and deals drugs. MM refuses to leave her even though she has some serious psychological, emotional and substance issues. When the chips fall, he defends her and has a need to be with her regardless of how damaging of a relationship it is. His attachment to her is not your average husband/wife attachment. He seems to thrive on her drama and can't let go. He more than fits the description of a codependent, if the things about his wife are true.

Edited November 9, 2010 by LucreziaBorgia

[KarmasTestDummy]

I was just posting the warrant bit because of the accusations against mm for making the drug and cops bit up. It really has no impact on the current situation. Yes they are still together, and the warrant isn't going to change anything. She isn't likely to do any time. Most likely just go do a "site and release", get a court date, and maybe have to pay some fines or worst case get probation. CPS did investigate further. Did a drug test, but after the incident she went and got a medicinal marijuana license (which is about as easy to get as walking into a dispensary with a complaint of pain and $60)...so they can't do anything about her smoking pot now.

 

Mm is still very miserable and unhappy and says he knows it isn't going to work long term. He tried to make it right...but says the constant fighting and distrust makes it impossible. Both have to be willing to make the effort and she wasn't willing to.

[desertIslandCactus]

There is more to the story than just being married to her. He is attached to her in some very unhealthy ways, all marital bonds aside (if he has been truthful to KTD about it, that is.)

 

Apparently, the wife is prone to violence, impulsive behavior, cheats constantly, has a drug problem, and deals drugs. MM refuses to leave her even though she has some serious psychological, emotional and substance issues. When the chips fall, he defends her and has a need to be with her regardless of how damaging of a relationship it is. His attachment to her is not your average husband/wife attachment. He seems to thrive on her drama and can't let go. He more than fits the description of a codependent, if the things about his wife are true.

 

It's what happens when an OW (or anyone) is forced to look into the window of someone's marriage.

 

Why wouldn't a man defend his wife when the chips fall - no matter how bad their life is.

 

It's one of the reasons why divorce is supposed to happen first.

[Owl]

So here's where I'm confused, KTD.

 

They're still together...and he still claims to be miserable.

 

He's had the absolute best opportunities to change the situation...to end it with her.

 

He continually chooses not to.

 

Why do you accept that, my friend? You're worth so much more than that.

[Ellin]

Yes. Common sense goes a long way.

 

IMO if you said just that to an alcoholic: "look, just stop doing it to yourself, I never drank too much and I'm managing just fine, so you can too" it would be completely unhelpful, could even make them actually feel worse.

 

But saying "I was once where you are and know what it's like but have managed to get out of it, so you can too and I'll show you how" is a completely different story.

[Ellin]

Actually yes. Empathy, kindness and understanding. Just because one may not have experienced something firsthand doesn't mean their advice or support isn't any less important or more important than someone who has gone through it. Just a different perspective, that's all.

 

As long as the advice is heartfelt and respectful, it shouldn't MATTER if the person has gone through it or not. It's absolutely ridiculous to tell anybody not to post their thoughts, and yes, I'm reading between the lines here.

 

Absolutely! Unfortunately as life shows, it is often hard to achieve the necessary level of empathy and understanding in controversial matters, which one has no direct experience of.

[Ellin]

If you have a question for me, PM me. This thread is about Karma. No one said you have to agree with my advice. Ignore it since it bothers you. But my posts are no less valuable than yours.

 

Why can't you answer my single question in one of your posts?

 

Like this one: What did Karma's children had to endure in your opinion? Something you wrote extensively about in this thread.

[Ellin]

Yes it makes a difference, but the point that was being made more or less said, atleast to ME, was: Anybody who hasn't gone through x,y, or z isn't worthy of giving advice and should keep their mouth shut.

 

It may not be the support you were lookin for, but it still could be helpful and beneficial at some point in time. To fluff it off because the person giving the advice hasn't gone through it firsthand, isn't right either.

 

You're reading too much into it.

[donnamaybe]

Absolutely! Unfortunately as life shows, it is often hard to achieve the necessary level of empathy and understanding in controversial matters, which one has no direct experience of.

And so if you've never dealt with someone who is involved in some way with drug sales, you won't know that it's best for KTD to get herself out of the situation.

[jennie-jennie]

And so if you've never dealt with someone who is involved in some way with drug sales, you won't know that it's best for KTD to get herself out of the situation.

 

Hmm, I thought the wife of Karma's MM only used drugs, that she didn't sell them?

 

Anyhow, since I have been involved in drug sales, both sold and bought them in fact, I guess I am very qualified to give Karma advice then.

[jennie-jennie]

But the only advice you can give then is to not do it. Many OW need advice how to make the best of the situation while they are in it, since they choose to stay in the extramarital relationship.

 

That is the advice I gave HER because THIS situation, IMO, warrants it. To "teach" a person how to make do in a situation that could harm her rather than tell her to withdraw is bad advice - again, JMO.

 

I would be interested in reading even one post where you have given any other advice to an OW than not to do it, one post where you suggest how to deal with being an OW who chooses to stay in the extramarital relationship.

[Silly_Girl]

But the BTSDT'ers (Been There Still Doing That) may not be as valid because of the "can't see the forest for the trees" aspect. BUT - I wouldn't question their right to speak their piece. I may state why I feel someone's opinion is wrong, but that is my right as it is just my opinion, and everyone is free to share their opinions.

 

Say what you like, as a stranger to my own circumstance, but those who've been there, and their varying results, that's what I'd be most interested in.

 

As I said (which some posters seemed to ignore) in my post - it doesn't make others' responses invalid; it just means the responses from those who understand - REALLY understand - would speak to me a little louder.

Edited November 10, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Silly_Girl]

IMO if you said just that to an alcoholic: "look, just stop doing it to yourself, I never drank too much and I'm managing just fine, so you can too" it would be completely unhelpful, could even make them actually feel worse.

 

But saying "I was once where you are and know what it's like but have managed to get out of it, so you can too and I'll show you how" is a completely different story.

 

Amen!!!

 

(love it when someone sums up in a simple post what I've got my knickers in a twist over!!!)

[fooled once]

I'm sorry. I thought that's what we were doing.

 

Just because posters don't give the advice that YOU think is valuable, doesn't mean that they are not posting in Karma's best interest.

 

I don't give cookie cutter advice. I post for people to do what THEY think they should and what they can live with. I don't care who agrees with what I post. I post from the heart and not from the NC or die stance which is widely practiced here.

 

GEL

 

Neither do I.

 

Please stop making assumptions about me GEL. If you have an issue with me, take it off the boards and send me a PM (just as Tony has stated time and time again).

 

Until Tony says differently, I am allowed to post here, whether you agree with my advice or not.

[fooled once]

Lying or not, he still chose to be with her. I have very little doubt he will do whatever it takes to bail her out, as well. I have a hard time believing that a man who has that sort of codependent attachment to his wife will simply walk away from her.

 

As for the charges, a good lawyer can get her out of the worst of it by pleading her case as a mother, and getting her into a treatment program in lieu of a sentence. I wouldn't count on an automatic ten year bid.

 

I have no doubt he has feelings for you. That does not negate the attachment he has to his wife though. Re-read TOW dipper. Your MM is a classic case.

 

I agree

 

I agree, but I don't think you need to bother defending your position.

 

I'm really confused about all the drama. I don't think anyone here wants anything bad to happen to karma. Everyone (I think) posts from the heart, what they personally think is best for her, regardless of their past experiences. As long as this is an open forum, everyone is welcome to post. Some don't agree with my advice, I don't agree with some other's advice.

 

It's almost as if one "side" is threatened by the opposing "side". That's silly and unfortunate, because our OP is caught in the middle. What's wrong with everyone pleading their case to the OP, and leaving the infighting aside? After all, it's the OP that's here asking for perspective.

 

Agree

 

Sometimes the best advice/support is to help the person asking for support to make better choices, rather than to teach them to try to "make the best" of a bad situation.

 

However...I also recognize that we're almost certainly not going to convince each other to change our views on what "support" should be here....so wouldn't it be better for all of us if we stop trying to tell each other what "support" they should offer and just let each person offer the support they think is best?

 

In that vein...

 

KTD, I saw that you posted she's got a warrant out for her arrest...which I don't see as a bad thing in the long run. What's going on with MM? Where's his head in all of this?

 

Good post Owl.

 

I agree! I don't understand why some people are encouraging Karma to stay in this obviously unhealthy situation. ... if Karma's own way is to stay with this drama-fueled lying using-her MM, so be it, I can't change it but I'm certainly not going to encourage it and I'm not her counselor so luckily I don't have to say "Okay dear whatever makes you happy." No way.

 

I'm getting frustrated with everyone fighting about what our advice and opinions should be when common sense says RUN KARMA RUN. So I will end with RUN KARMA RUN and step out of this thread, like I did Karma's last thread, for good. It's too frustrating! Yes I know everyone comes to their own conclusions in their own way... but Karma has been run over by this train and she's standing there in the tracks again and I'm tired of watching the movie that keeps having a really bad ending. There is nothing else I can say and she obviously doesn't want to hear it.

 

So good luck Karma, I wish you all the best. I remember that at one point quite recently you wanted a better life for yourself by your own admission and so I hope you can find it.

 

COMPLETELY Agree. Best of luck Karma.

 

So here's where I'm confused, KTD.

 

They're still together...and he still claims to be miserable.

 

He's had the absolute best opportunities to change the situation...to end it with her.

 

He continually chooses not to.

 

Why do you accept that, my friend? You're worth so much more than that.

 

Why do you accept it Karma?

 

Why can't you answer my single question in one of your posts?

 

Like this one: What did Karma's children had to endure in your opinion? Something you wrote extensively about in this thread.

 

Again, if you have a question for ME about MY views, PM me. Karma has chosen to stay with the MM and she has stated her kids are unaware of all this (thank God). Karma's children have had to endure their mothers changing moods due to the MM and all the drama. Karma answered my questions (which I appreciate Karma!).

 

I will no longer be involved in the back and forth bickering.

[whichwayisup]

Mm is still very miserable and unhappy and says he knows it isn't going to work long term. He tried to make it right...but says the constant fighting and distrust makes it impossible. Both have to be willing to make the effort and she wasn't willing to.

 

He stays in his marriage, with his wife for the same reasons why you can't let go of him. She stays with him because of whatever reason(s), bottomline is, they have children, they are married, their life is filled with drama and fighting, which = Passion. That passion and drama is addictive, as you well know, so that is probably why he still with her. Fighting aside, something keeps them together, chemistry, glue is strong there. Sorry.

[Silly_Girl]

Again, if you have a question for ME about MY views, PM me. Karma has chosen to stay with the MM and she has stated her kids are unaware of all this (thank God). Karma's children have had to endure their mothers changing moods due to the MM and all the drama.

 

FO - sorry, I just have to ask... where do we see in this thread the suffering of Karma's children? You mentioned the danger they were on previously - erroneously as it turned out. Now you appear to think that Karma's private relationship is impacting on her ability to parent... But I've seen nothing. There have been some very bad positions I've been in personally, with my ex, much worse than anything I've seen Karma post, and my lad didn't have a clue; he was oblivious! It looks to me like another significant assumption but if not I'd appreciate a steer towards the relevant post(s). Thanks.