His Ex and Himself Still in Contact

[Kat]

Originally posted by midori

And why should he give you this information?

The reason this is such a big issue for me is due to the fact that he has told me that he has nothing to hide. He has told me before that he is happy for me to read his emails if I desire because he has nothing to hide. Normally he won't hear his phone and I will check his sms and take it into him and it isn't an issue. It seems that the secrest only surround her.

I think we've got a bit of a chicken-and-egg paradox going on here. If I'm remembering your situation correctly Kat, you have issues with bf's and cheating (an ex cheated on you, right?) such that you might even be hypersensitive about the situation. You're worried before it even happens, he thus hides contact with exes from you, but you're anxious about it happening and will ferret it out if it does, so the hiding it from you makes it look even worse in your eyes.

I don't deny the fact that I have my own personal trust issues. However I was aware that a couple works it out together. If I have an issue about his ex he just goes 'I don't see what you are so worked up about' and leaves it at that. He doesn't even put in any effort anymore. Now I know he doesn't have too, but again, that doesn't stop be having the right to get upset.

I'm not trying to be condescending to you Kat, because I recognize that you're genuinely upset over this, but I cannot figure out why you think it's your right to dictate who your bf communicates with in a general way. Or why you think he should volunteer who sms's him, who sends him emails, etc. In getting together with you he did not sign over a right to basic privacy -- did he?

I suppose it is my 'treat others as you would be treated'. If anything happens I tell my boyfriend, from ex's emailing me, to friends visiting, to parents mentioning something.. His logic is that he will show that he won't cheat on me by 'not cheating on me'. I work by actively showing and sharing my life with him so he SEES the effort I make.

Imagine a slightly different scenario. Imagine you were with a man whose previous partner had proven to be untrustworthy, sleeping with random men who she didn't always even know. Consequently he was very very anxious about you even speaking to other men, any other men. You could understand why he was that way, but you wouldn't let it dominate you, would you? You'd have some patience for his anxiety but you'd remind him that you are not her, and he can't view your actions through the same warped lens that she created.

I woudl and I wouldn't dig my heels in the ground and go 'Well I see nothign wrong so there isn't'.

 

Right now that sounds like an over-generalization. Do you really mean that he never shows emotions? Or do you mean that when you get into confrontations with him about your jealousy regrding his exes, he responds with rational and unemotional logic that makes your complaints seem irrational and childish?

Umm I am not sure. He is a very introverted person. I am very extroverted. This applies to all areas of life, to feelings, to fights, to highs.

 

One of the greatest challenges of having a fulfilling, mature relationship with another person is owning our own weakness, being able to recongize and acknowledge them instead of trying to foist them onto our partners, pretending that they are the source, or that we have to pretend to be perfect in order to be acceptable to them.

 

I do have issues and I don't deny that. However my main issue is that while I owen them, if I have an issue and I tell him, he ignores it and we end up in a fight. If I don't tell him, he gets annoyed because he knows what's wrong but I 'lie' to him by saying nothing. I don't feel that I can win. I can't make my feelings known..and he doesn't want to hear them.

 

If you can't recognize that he is a different sort of person than those who have hurt you in the past, then I don't see how you're going to be able to maintain a relationship with him. Do you?

I know he is not my ex.. Thank god IT isn't maiking HIM deal with THEIR mistakes, but it is trying to work through things as a couple. Well thats what I think it should be. He has just as many issues about ex's too... and yet I consider myself very supportive in those areas.

 

 

Originally posted by moimeme

One who has nothing to hide should never fear scrutiny. On this matter, if I had an insecure partner, I'd expose everything to him until he understood that I was dealing with him completely honestly. That's what this guy should have done rather than hiding from her. He's made it much worse. Plus, that statement about giving her up in favour of the ex is enough to send anyone into worry.

 

Again I am someone who treats others how I would want to be treated. I say nothing, do nothing, send nothing, be nothing I would not want my partner to witness. I expect the same back, but don't get it.

 

 

Originally posted by moimeme

However, I don't think the prospects for this relationship are good and not because of her insecurity. It's not nearly as bad or obsessive as that of some others here. He's just not fully invested in that relationship. Sorry to say it, Kat, but I'm afraid that's the case.

 

I think it is worth saving and I want other perspectives to try and figure out what to do.

[befuddled11]

In regards to this "ex", you wrote:

 

"I do consider her a threat. Any woman who my man picks over me no matter where she is, is a threat."

 

She can't possibly be a threat unless he allows it. This isn't about her at all. This is about your partner being clear in letting you know that if it came down to the 2 of you, he'd choose her.

 

Why would you want to be in a relationship with someone who makes it clear that you're second best?

 

A man who loves a woman would put her first above any other woman ...especially an ex. It seems he's been very honest and upfront with you, about letting you know she means more to him than you do. Why are you settling for that?

 

She is not really at fault here. He's the one who's supposedly committed himself to you, not her making a commitment to you.

 

Ask yourself why you want to share a life with someone who makes no bones about caring more about this ex, than you?

 

Why are you settling for less?

 

If he feels the way he does, after the amount of time he's been with you, you gotta know his feelings aren't going to change. And you will continue to have to deal with his secrets and them keeping in contact. There's nothing "You" can do to stop or change any of this. The change has to come from him, in terms of how he feels inside...and it's obvious that's not going to happen.

 

Why wouldn't you be angry at him for caring more about her than you? Why aren't you standing up for yourself and telling him you deserve a man who will put you and your feelings first?

[midori]

Originally posted by Kat

I think it is worth saving.

 

Why? Just wondering why you want to save it when he is doing things that distress you so.

[Curt]

OK, I have a few points on what's been said:

 

Moimeme, you said:

 

"Secrecy implies that something is going on that is untoward. His hiding it, for whatever reason, makes it that much worse. She may be insecure, but her insecurity will not be helped this way whatsoever."

 

Moimeme, surely you know yourself that this is not always the case. It is a generalization of the highest order. I honestly think that it may be her feeling of insecurity that is causing him to be less than forthcoming about everything. I don't think he has admitted that she is not as important, but that being trusted is extremely important to him as a man. If I were in a similar situation, I can't say that I wouldn't be walking on proverbial eggshells too. I would want to have a very trusting relationship with the woman I love. If I couldn't I wouldn't want to get involved with her. I just can't imagine what it would be like to be treated with such suspicion. I imagine it would be pure emotional upheaval. I'm sorry, but that's just my suspicion.

 

You also noted that;

 

"...the very act of keeping something like that secret imbues it with some significance."

 

Significant does not equal evidence of infidelity or general "hank-panky of any sort." He may very well be saving her from her own fears. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have addressed the situation. Nonetheless, how many times have they discussed this same situation I wonder?

 

"If he is hiding communicaton with an ex, then that makes him untrustworthy, no?"

 

No, not necessarily. Particularly not necessarily so with respect to this specific situational "milleu."

 

Also, Kat, you said:

 

"Any woman who my man picks over me no matter where she is, is a threat.

 

He has picked her over you? I didn't realize that he was in love with her. I must have not read one of your posts.

 

You also stated;

 

"If I have an issue about his ex he just goes 'I don't see what you are so worked up about' and leaves it at that. He doesn't even put in any effort anymore."

 

I suggest that the word anymore is the problem here. Out of raw curiosity, how much has this been discussed and re-discussed Kat?

 

In any event, I shall have no more to say on the matter. Kat, I just don't want you to make any broadscale assumptions or generalizations, or worry yourself unnecessarily over something which is not by any means known infidelity.

 

It is not often that the party that is acting out the infidelity will let his or her partner know about who with straight up. In essence, if he is not committed to her, and that is what he has effectively done, he has used a most interesting method to go about it to be sure. Groundbreaking perhaps...

 

'Nuf said.

 

Curt

[Kat]

Originally posted by befuddled11

Why would you want to be in a relationship with someone who makes it clear that you're second best?

I think because I know that I am half responsible for reading it that way.

 

Originally posted by midori

Why? Just wondering why you want to save it when he is doing things that distress you so.

 

Because I am able to take responsibility in that it isn't ALL his fault.

 

Originally posted by Curt

He has picked her over you? I didn't realize that he was in love with her. I must have not read one of your posts.

He isn't in love with her. I think it is a matter of princable that if I asked him to choose he would pick the person who didn't make him choose, more than him loving me over her.

I suggest that the word anymore is the problem here. Out of raw curiosity, how much has this been discussed and re-discussed Kat?

 

A lot of it and you do raise a very good point. I talk things to death. For me something needs to get said to make things better, not always done. While as he thinks things should be said, done and fixed, rather than harped on.

 

 

 

I would just like to point out that my biggest fear is what goes on in his head (and hers) and not actually what may happen between them. I am scared of what they think and talk about rather than them jumpinginto bed with each other (which I KNOW my partner would not do).

 

Again I worry about the things I can't control.

 

 

BTW we just had a long talk. Lots of tears.....

[yes]

Kat, instead of discussing it with him to death, perhaps you should talk to a counsellor instead? S/he may be able to help you sort out both this situation and whatever issues led to it.

 

just a thought,

-yes

[moimeme]

I honestly think that it may be her feeling of insecurity that is causing him to be less than forthcoming about everything

 

There is no excuse. There is no reason to see an ex and to remain in constant contact with her if his partner worries about it. I repeat; the way to cure this is to be totally open and above-board about ALL one's interactions with the ex and show that there's nothing to worry about, no matter how much she fusses. Eventually she will stop fussing because she'll feel that there is no secrecy or hiding.

 

Curt, put the shoe on the other foot. If you found out that your 'trusted' partner was seeing an ex on the sly, would you not think something is up? It's lame to make the excuse 'I hide it because it bothers you'. Sorry, but when it comes to exes seeing exes, there is zero excuse to continue the relationship at the expense of the partner's new relationship.

 

Men, in fact, are usually the ones who get TOTALLY bent out of shape at their partners remaining in contact with former partners. I had one male friend (well, he claimed he was 'just a friend') who flipped when I suggested he meet one of my exes!

 

Think hard about what you would do in this situation. I put to you that if any ex is so close to you that you can't bear the thought of minimizing or cutting off frequent contact, that that person remains too close to you.

[Kat]

Originally posted by yes

Kat, instead of discussing it with him to death, perhaps you should talk to a counsellor instead? S/he may be able to help you sort out both this situation and whatever issues led to it.

 

just a thought,

-yes

 

I have actually been to more than two counsellors. They all said that I was a level headed person for someone who has been what I have been through. I was aware of what was wrong, it was just a matter of putting it into place and counselling was not for me.

[Curt]

I promised myself I would let this be, but I just have a couple of last comments to make, and I shall then rest on the subject.

 

Please understand moi, that I would hate to see Kat taken advantage of in any relationship. She has always appeared to me to be a well-meaning, intelligent, sweet, not to mention attractive lady, who deserves (like any other decent woman) to have the best in her relationships with men.

 

That being said, in my extremely humble opinion, I also do believe that Kat may be better off taking her things and leaving this guy now. She should perhaps chalk this relationship up to a learning experience.

 

But the "why" is most important in any of this...

 

At least on the surface, for whatever reasons we choose as posters to believe, it appears that there is little to no emotional trust between Kat and her partner. Certainly, IMHO, not enough at any rate. They are perhaps at a point of irreconcilable difference on this issue. As far as the potential for an affair here, I think that Kat believes sincerely that he would never initiate a physical/sexual relationship with his ex. Nonetheless, FOR HER, the way he is seeing the emotional aspects of the situation, does not coalesce with her perspective.

 

I believe, Kat, that as a decent human being, you do have some issues with trust that you should maybe start seeing a professional about once again. I fear that no matter what relationship you do get into, there will be shadows of doubt in your mind that might not yield, even to a seemingly "ideal" setup, emotionally.

 

Now, Moimeme, you said above that...

 

There is no excuse. There is no reason to see an ex and to remain in constant contact with her if his partner worries about it. I repeat; the way to cure this is to be totally open and above-board about ALL one's interactions with the ex and show that there's nothing to worry about, no matter how much she fusses. Eventually she will stop fussing because she'll feel that there is no secrecy or hiding.

 

When might the fussing cease though, given that she clearly has been wounded emotionally by being done wrong by guys in the past? I hate to be appear evasive/unkind here, but I wonder how many "hoops" this guy would really need to jump through to prove himself adequately.

 

She has found no evidence of infidelity, and unless she does...then what really is the limit to what she can/should attempt to "micromanage" this relationship with his ex?

 

Sure, he may not have shown the best of form, and whether or not we see this as an excuse, it is probably a reasonable explanation for why he did what he did. All feelings put aside Moimeme, he did let her know that he had lunch with the chick, (albeit after the fact), and he could just have easily been a real (insert expletive here) and told her nothing EVER. Not that it would make it right, but given what this has turned into here, I am maybe beginning to see why he would be hesitant to be immediately forthcoming. Why did he choose to tell her? Hey, in any event, it is just my opinion.

 

You also said the following Moi:

 

Curt, put the shoe on the other foot. If you found out that your 'trusted' partner was seeing an ex on the sly, would you not think something is up? It's lame to make the excuse 'I hide it because it bothers you'.

 

Moi, the statement that you make here pre-paints the situation with moral/ethical hues that pre-judge his actions. I only ask: How can we know his true reasons to that degree of certainty?

 

Sorry, but when it comes to exes seeing exes, there is zero excuse to continue the relationship at the expense of the partner's new relationship.

 

I understand that you feel that way, but, where does that ball stop rolling? How can we take ourselves out of so many life situations to ensure our partners are in no way emotionally threatened by close friends (even exes) in our lives? Change jobs? Change towns? Change States/Provinces? My point is simple: where does that "ball" stop rolling?

 

Men, in fact, are usually the ones who get TOTALLY bent out of shape at their partners remaining in contact with former partners. I had one male friend (well, he claimed he was 'just a friend') who flipped when I suggested he meet one of my exes!

 

Show me the data, and I'll accept this supposition. I am sure you can agree that the emotional milleu surrounding one situation does not a general rule make.

 

Think hard about what you would do in this situation. I put to you that if any ex is so close to you that you can't bear the thought of minimizing or cutting off frequent contact, that that person remains too close to you.

 

This is your perspective, though, and is not a hard-and-fast rule to determine the relative reasonability of one person's contact with another.

 

Kat, I wish you the very best, hunn. I sincerely wish all works out well for you.

 

Curt.

[Kat]

Originally posted by Curt

I promised myself I would let this be, but I just have a couple of last comments to make, and I shall then rest on the subject.

 

Please understand moi, that I would hate to see Kat taken advantage of in any relationship. She has always appeared to me to be a well-meaning, intelligent, sweet, not to mention attractive lady, who deserves (like any other decent woman) to have the best in her relationships with men.

Thank you.

 

I believe, Kat, that as a decent human being, you do have some issues with trust that you should maybe start seeing a professional about once again. I fear that no matter what relationship you do get into, there will be shadows of doubt in your mind that might not yield, even to a seemingly "ideal" setup, emotionally.

I am aware of the trust issues and so is my partner. While these are major foundations for a loving relationship, we are both prepared to work towards this. As hard as it is to tell my partner I don't trust him, I have told him the truth and [says] he understands. He trusts me and he loves me and is willing to help where he can, and where I will let him, until such tiome as we die, or it gets controllable. We both know it isn't an overnight fix, but there are other things that we share that we know could not be found elsewhere, and honesly we don't want to look for anywhere else. In saying this, the reasons to stay together outweigh the reasons for leaving. It is a slow road and one I am prepared to travel.

 

We had a long talk before, a lot of tears, raised voices, and opinions thrown around. We are mature adults and we plan on trying t work through this. We both do things the other doesn't like, and this includes dealing with hurt and issues differently.

 

Kat, I wish you the very best, hunn. I sincerely wish all works out well for you.

Thank you very much and I appriciate your opinion. It is nice to see it from the other side. The side I don't want to exist

[moimeme]

I wonder how many "hoops" this guy would really need to jump through to prove himself adequately.

 

Man, Curt. You are blowing this way out of proportion, IMHO. It's a piece of cake. Tell gf when you have heard from ex. Tell gf that you'd like to go see ex - remember, gf even invited ex to home and met her. Tell gf about visit with ex. Really, this is turning into a huge deal when it need not be.

 

Bottom line is that exes are special cases and people need to be extremely cautious/transparent in their dealings with them. This is not about 'jumping through hoops', for pity's sakes. It's simply about honesty.

 

the statement that you make here pre-paints the situation with moral/ethical hues that pre-judge his actions

 

Um. No. I am speaking about the fact that he is seeing the ex and hiding it. That is the only 'ethical' issue here. I don't care whether they're having a shag under the table or just having tea and cakes; it is the secrecy which is at issue.

 

I understand that you feel that way, but, where does that ball stop rolling? How can we take ourselves out of so many life situations to ensure our partners are in no way emotionally threatened by close friends (even exes) in our lives? Change jobs? Change towns? Change States/Provinces? My point is simple: where does that "ball" stop rolling?

 

Oh come on, Curt. You know darn well the 'slippery slope' argument is lame, lamoh, lamoRAMA and these examples are just way beyond the pale. There is one simple issue here - do not see/contact your exes in secret. That's it. No need for hyperbole.

[priscilla]

I went through the exact same situation as you recently. I asked him if it came down to maintaining his "friendship" with her or continuing with our relationship, he chose her...so be prepared. I ended it, but questioned whether this was the right thing to do and still sometimes struggle with it, but Ihave not had one person telling me I made a mistake. If he really cares about you and your feelings, he would end it.

 

We even talked to a counselor, an objective male, who on multiple occassions told him to get rid of her because it bothered me so much. I didn't care about another ex he kept in contact with , just her. The counselor said it was emotional cheating and that it could potentially lead to trouble down the road.

 

I don't know if this helps with your decision, but also remember, if you guys ever get married, it won't end, so you either have to accept it an be unhappy or leave. I have heard the saying many times, it is better to be alone than in an unhappy relationship.

[Thinkalot]

Geez..it is a tough one...and I dont know what the answer is, because I can honestly see both sides.

 

I in fact have just posted a similar question in the gen. relationship section and would love some feedback.

 

I asked my guy once if he would stay with me if I asked him to cease all contact with the ex, and he said he probably wouldnt...NOT because he would miss the ex so much, but because it would indicate I had major issues with trust and control, which he would find hard to live with.

 

A different perspective on things.

 

moimeme and others, what is your view of that statement?

[priscilla]

I think if you asked him to loose contact with all his friend girls or ex's then it would be a control issue. But if it is only one person then its different. I believe, and so did our counselor, that if you really love someone and have a future with them,they would consider your feelings and end the other relationship.

[Thinkalot]

Well, I was actually just speaking with my love and mentioned the subject (he also sometimes surfs Lshack) had arisen on this site. I am not intending to ask that he ceases all contact, but asked what he would do if I did. He said he would be a bit concerned, but would do it if it came to that. So I guess that's exactly what you guys are saying. I'd do it for him too, with reluctance.

 

Kat I hope you are feeling a bit better now.

[Kat]

I am thank you

[kara]

Disagree with Curt, we are not dealing with two but with one and single issue here: commitment. Kat, if your guy is not commited to you and doesn't acknowledge your discomfort, hurt feelings or need for reassurance, I think you should think long and hard about your relationship. I had similar problems with my bf and in the end he accepted that there is no such thing as "just friends with an ex". I agree with the above post that men look at it as an ego-booster and I completely disagree with creating the dogma "me and my ex are just friends, that's a wonderful thing, peace and love all around", come on people be HONEST with yourselves! Everyone will deal with it in their own way and that's to be RESPECTED. If your bf is not ready to commit he should stop being chicken about it and just tell you. Meanwhile, be good to yourself, make sure you treat yourself well, Kat.

Love.

[Kat]

Thanks guys.

 

He did ask me on the weekend if I wanted him to stop speaking to her and that he was willing to do it if it makes me happy. He said 'Never again, I promise. Is that what you want?'

 

I said that it was what I wanted, but now how I wanted. I told him that I want him to to speak to her because he sees no desire, need, reason too, not because he was forced.

 

He sees it as an infection starting in someones arm. Then chopping off the arm because it is infected even when the infection has already started to spread to the rest of the body. Do we just keep chopping off body parts? He says that me making him not talk to his ex is like chopping off the atm, where he wants to fix the infection (problem with trust and the rest that goes on in my head).

 

I don't know where we go from here, I suppose we will wait and see what happens next time....