desertIslandCactus Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Just trying to point out that complicated route to parenting isn't a male burden to bear. Remember where some of your tax dollars are going and why. Ain't we all paying support to a kid that isn't ours already? "I believe the children are our future; treat them well and let them lead the way..." Sexual Chocolate! *drops the mic and walks away* Amen. .... Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Remember where some of your tax dollars are going and why. Ain't we all paying support to a kid that isn't ours already? That is yet a separate issue, and for a good overview of how I feel about it, read "The Law", it's well written, thought provoking and free. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 That's actually not true. As long as the father has physical access to the child, he can have whatever DNA test done he wants. And they do sell independent lab DNA tests that are court approved. The difference is the test is performed at a facility or by a representative of the facilty instead of a self swab situation. The person I responded to was speaking of the self swab on the sly test and it would be ignored by a court. And no, some guy who thinks he might be the kids dad can't secret it away for medical testing. Link to post Share on other sites
michelangelo Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 It's different because it's still your child even if it wasn't fully your choice. Exactly!! I think she knows this. Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 And no, some guy who thinks he might be the kids dad can't secret it away for medical testing. OK so I again really laughed on that one. Link to post Share on other sites
TheMENemy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 She has been grinding that axe so hard, for so long, that now it's just a needle. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 That's laughable. Since when did cars gain "rights"? I paid for my car and can treat it any old way I want to. A child is a living, breathing being with inherent rights of its own. All you have to do is think of it as protecting the child's interest, ensuring the child has information available as to its true parentage, etc...stop thinking of this as a violation of YOUR rights, and understand that the truth should be available to who it affects the most...the CHILD. How many fathers, especially those who are married, are going to want a DNA test? Many people don't believe adultery occured when the evidence in put in their face. Making something someone can already freely choose to do mandatory is about as sensible as making it mandatory to get an oil change by a licensed mechanic. Meaning - why make it mandatory for everyone when the people who might feel it necessary can already seek it out and the people who don't feel its necessary can opt to not seek it if they see no sense in it? How about a little freedom of choice in the matter? but then, we already know how you feel about that don't we? Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 OK so I again really laughed on that one. Intuitive spell check got me twice. Much obliged. Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Meaning - why make it mandatory for everyone when the people who might feel it necessary can already seek it out and the people who don't feel its necessary can opt to not seek it if they see no sense in it? I'm a bit conflicted on this. In general I'm against the government doing much anything outside police and fire, etc, but they ARE into a lot of things and there are already an assload of required tests that are done. In that context I don't have a big issue with adding one more. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 I'm a bit conflicted on this. In general I'm against the government doing much anything outside police and fire, etc, but they ARE into a lot of things and there are already an assload of required tests that are done. In that context I don't have a big issue with adding one more. Slippery slope getting more and more slippery everyday huh? "But its so HARD to think for myself!" Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 I'm a bit conflicted on this. In general I'm against the government doing much anything outside police and fire, etc, but they ARE into a lot of things and there are already an assload of required tests that are done. In that context I don't have a big issue with adding one more. I DO. Your shyness in asking a spouse whom you obviously don't trust to have your child participate in a DNA test .. should Not be paid for by the People. It is Your problem. Not a problem for the people. Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Slippery slope getting more and more slippery everyday huh? I live in a world with shades of gray, sue me. I'm the guy who thinks all taxes are inherently evil, but that sometimes they are a LESSER evil. I would like to see all taxes abolished except sales (user) taxes too, but there are too many freeloaders out there. So do I dislike the idea of requiring one more thing? Ya. Would it be a lesser evil? Probably, if the law was changed so the results mattered. Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 I DO. Your shyness in asking a spouse whom you obviously don't trust to have your child participate in a DNA test .. should Not be paid for by the People. It is Your problem. Not a problem for the people. .....and can't even suggest that you take your insecure self* to a counselor .. because indirectly we are probably paying for that too .. with the rise in medical billed costs to insurance companies.. *or you and the little woman. Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 I DO. Your ... should Not be paid for by the People. It is Your problem. Not a problem for the people. OK I'm fine with that, and understand, it will never be an issue for ME specifically. Are you fine with applying that logic and principle far and wide? 'Cause I can create a quite a list of things I pay for that are not of my making or my concern, nor should they be "a problem for the people" ... We can abolish WIC, welfare, all forms of public assistance that are not in the form of insurances, etc based on your wonderful (I mean it) idea here. Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 OK I'm fine with that, and understand, it will never be an issue for ME specifically. Are you fine with applying that logic and principle far and wide? 'Cause I can create a quite a list of things I pay for that are not of my making or my concern, nor should they be "a problem for the people" ... We can abolish WIC, welfare, all forms of public assistance that are not in the form of insurances, etc based on your wonderful (I mean it) idea here. I'm all for abolishing as many unnecessary taxes as possible.. and not inventing new expense. Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 .....and can't even suggest that you take your insecure self* to a counselor .. because indirectly we are probably paying for that too .. with the rise in medical billed costs to insurance companies.. *or you and the little woman. Why do you assume this applies to me? I'm arguing an idea, not advocating for a change in my lifestyle. Perhaps casting aspersions upon the life you imagine someone might have is the best argument you can make? Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 I'm all for abolishing as many unnecessary taxes as possible.. and not inventing new expense. I'm all for it, I pay more in taxes than most Americans earn. In this case yes, this change would benefit me greatly, but I also believe it's a win for justice. But then I don't believe in a system that gives custody of a child to one person and requires another to support the child. Given that we have the former and it's not going away, anything that can reasonably mitigate it being abused is probably a net good. Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Why do you assume this applies to me? I'm arguing an idea, not advocating for a change in my lifestyle. Perhaps casting aspersions upon the life you imagine someone might have is the best argument you can make? When does the age of accountability happen .. when people can take responsibility for having their own family DNA tests done, without wishing to involve the people. And yes, after learning that families use counselors like aspirin, I think that jacks up the insurance rates as well. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 I have a really hard time relating that to mandatory oil changes, but whatever. To me it's more like the required HIV tests in the first trimester and right after birth. Many would believe that to be an invasion of the mother's privacy, yet they (medical staff) are advocating in the best interest of the child. I tend to agree with the medical staff in this situation. I don't look at it as a way to protect fathers' rights as much as protecting the rights of the child. The child has no say in the secrets we choose to keep...secrets that could eventually harm that child in a broader scope than the betrayal of one of its parents. Shouldn't knowledge of parentage be an inherent right? Yup and the kid can grow up and seek DNA testing for them and any willing member of their family or "family" -however the test results place them genetically. At least then, no one would be sneaking off for medical testing. It happens pretty often when someone presents with a health issue that is typically inherited. Especially when no one else in the family has history of it. It wouldn't bother me so much if the testing was limited to custody cases rather than an every kid born situation. But it is still giving Uncle Sam that much more control over your individual rights than I trust them to have. Hell! They already have more than I'd like them to and they don't seem to care about keeping secrets from me and everyone else. Including using my tax dollars to cover their tithes and calling it "charity" or "aid". Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 When does the age of accountability happen .. You're starting to really not make sense. Let me make it incredibly simple for you. I will never for a single instant incorrectly think a woman is carrying my child, it's never gonna happen. I'm special, you see. I'm just arguing out of a sense of justice mixed with contrariness and boredom. Link to post Share on other sites
JAGeezer Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 (edited) Or to see that an innocent precious child - is just that. Any adversity towards the child is of ignorance and darkness. Like I said, rose-tinted glasses much? I actually have such a situation staring me in the face right now. I have to deal with the fact that my niece wishes she were dead because of this very thing. My hard reality trumps your wishful thinking. Women who put themselves in a position where, through an A, they may bear the child of a man other than their husband need to wake the hell up to the probable consequences. It's terrible that the kids get the sins of their parents visited upon them, but it's an unavoidable consequence of the situation.....which COULD have been avoided had the would-be mother had an ounce of fore-thought and integrity. JAG Edited November 10, 2010 by JAGeezer Link to post Share on other sites
JAGeezer Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 You mean as a result of the choices made by the mother and the guy she slept with - right? Or are you suggesting these women drugged and/or raped the men they get pregnant by? The original discussion focused on a MW becoming pregnant with her AP's child during an A. That presumes that she made a choice that led to her pregnancy in there somewhere, even if it was only the original choice to have the A. That's the discussion I was in. What discussion are you in? JAG Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Like I said, rose-tinted glasses much? I actually have such a situation staring me in the face right now. I have to deal with the fact that my niece wishes she were dead because of this very thing. My hard reality trumps your wishful thinking. Women who put themselves in a position where, through an A, they may bear the child of a man other than their husband need to wake the hell up to the probable consequences. It's terrible that the kids get the sins of their parents visited upon them, but it's an unavoidable consequence of the situation.....which COULD have been avoided had the would-be mother had an ounce of fore-thought and integrity. JAG Forgive the mother and embrace the child .. Your niece is carrying an unnecessary burden .. Link to post Share on other sites
112233 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Yes Responsibility is allowing the conceived child Life. Playing with words doesn't change the fact that the mother has all the options, all the power. All of the responsibility. If she doesn't want that she should write her congressmen to give others some degree of power, and thus, make them responsible. Link to post Share on other sites
desertIslandCactus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Playing with words doesn't change the fact that the mother has all the options, all the power. All of the responsibility. If she doesn't want that she should write her congressmen to give others some degree of power, and thus, make them responsible. Life is about personal responsibility.. that includes all of us.. Link to post Share on other sites
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