Am I doing the right thing?

[Rap17]

As to the "going in" part, Rap, you've been a caregiver since you were a boy. This means that, even before your new windfall of unwanted knowledge, you were already very empathetic and analytical about your relationships with other people. I therefore believe that, for one lucky person, you are going to be an exceptionally good husband -- for several others, a wonderful father -- and for several thousand children, a compassionate guidance counselor.

 

Wow what a detailed post downtown, gave me loads to think about, and gotta admit, the passage I quoted from your post is one of the nicest things Ive ever had someone say of me. Thank you mate.

 

 

Day 21 of NC.

 

Been through hell today, probably the worst day of NC yet. Went to play a concert tonight and probably one of the hardest gigs ever, due to me feeling so low. Im seriously at the breaking point at this moment. I miss her so much. When I got home I was hyperventilating, depression is kicking in hard.

 

I so wanna reach out now, just hear her voice and talk to her. I feel empty, so powerless, so hurt and lost. I dont know what to do. Its like something just broke on the inside. I somehow feel like I need to contact her, to get some kind of closure. She has succeeded in having me waiting on the sideline, Im not even sure if shes aware of it at all.

 

Honestly, I think Im close to having a nervous breakdown. Reality hit me like a ton of bricks. God, the pain...

[b_rouse]

Dude, I lived with a girl for 2.5 years who wouldn't apply for a job or try to make friends. It got to the point where I had to set up 'play dates' for her, and invite her friends over for her.

 

I flew down to visit her 3 months ago and offered to stand by her when her family was going through a really hard time. I said that we should resolve our issues before we thinking about getting back together.

 

Instead, she's dating some 35 year old guy now 3 weeks after I leave. Like you, I was gutted.

 

I can't pretend to understand what women are thinking.

 

I don't believe like everyone else does that 'no contact' is a bible, I just think it's the best way to isolate yourself from becoming more damaged by the situation.

 

I can't remember the last time my ex called (even though she only broke up with me officially 2 months ago) when I actually felt really good after I talked to her.

 

 

Oh it's not just women. That's what my ex did. We dated for a little over a year and within 2 weeks of the break up, hes already gotten into another relationship. I mean, 2 months into our relationship, he bought me a promise ring. So I'm led to believe he's just a quick moving without thinking guy.

[Fufu]

Rap17: It's natural to feel this way at times..... don't be too hard on yourself.

Don't contact her, reason being is if you hear her sound normal or happy over the phone, you are going to feel even more depressed.

 

When I haven't go NC, I chatted on phone with my ex, he sounded very normal and stone (which hurts me because in the past over the phone, we were so lovey dovey) and when I mentioned anything about our relationship, he will go very annoyed and irritated and pissed with me.

[Rap17]

*Major update*

 

Yes I broke NC. After having been incredibly depressed saturday I talked to my best friend, (well, my ex was my best friend but doesnt count anymore), and after having discussed the situation I knew exactly what to do, so here goes:

 

I wrote her back on Facebook in response to the message she sent wednesday. "Thanks for your message. You have my number, so youre free to call if you want to talk". She didnt reply, so I called her up last night. When I spoke to her something seemed fishy, like she went into another room and made some half assed excuse about it. No worries, I know what that means, Im sure the other guy was there. Right there and then, I told her exactly what I needed; closure.

 

Been feeling like shes left me hanging on the sidelines, "might come crawling back to you in time, thinking about you" etc. All sorts of mixed signals. So I told her that I was stuck and needed answers before I could move on. We spoke in a calm fashion, and I ended up asking to set up a meeting with her. I could tell this made her nervous and took her by surprise, "Im gonna have to see when Im available, will contact you" type of thing. But I insisted that it was important to me, and that we needed to settle on a day this week, cause this past month had been hard on me.

What do you know, she agreed on meeting today, monday.

 

I went to her place this evening with one thought in my mind. To keep it calm, collected and light. To get the answers I needed to hear. I needed to hear the reason she cheated on me and lied, but more importantly, to hear of her past. I wanted to have her open up to me and tell me about herself and what shes going through, what has happened in her upbringing to cause the problems shes experiencing, as to figure out if she indeed has some kind of personality disorder, or if I have been "seeing" things. Also, I was going to keep an eye out for any signs that she was sleeping with this other guy, and remember, she doesnt know that I have those suspicions.

 

Heres how it went:

 

She did indeed open up, and I just listened. Didnt speak much at first. Shes had a rough childhood, her parents got divorced when she was 2 years old. Her mom moved away, and her grandmom took over as the mother figure in her life. Grandmom past away when she was 4. She lived with her father until the age of 12, he had numerous flings with other women, had a daughter she often meets, but have no connection to and through this time, her dad would always tell her that her mom left because she felt that her daughter, (my ex), wasnt good enough for her. Bitterness, and emotional abuse.

 

She moved to live with her mom at the age of 12 in another city. She didnt know anyone at first and her mom started to show signs of being sick, (gambling addiction). Years passed, then she finally met her ex ex, (the guy before me), who was six years older than her, she was 16 at this point. Bad stuff happened before this relationship and two years into it. She met guys who just used her for sex, and while with her ex a lot of horrible stuff happened. Basically, because her mom was sick, she took on her moms parenting role, they switched roles in a way. So, two years passed in their relationship and a lot of bad stuff happened, with her mom etc. I didnt get much details here, but I didnt need to. I had heard all I needed to. Then her and the ex moved back to this city where her dad lives, and basically left her mom to live alone. It had been traumatic, and she had probably slammed the door on her mom or something, telling her that she would never be in touch with her again as ling as she is sick. Btw, from past talks with her, Ive learned that her dad sometimes blame her for leaving him to live with her mom.

 

Two years later, her relationship went sour, (in the exact same way her relationship with me went cold), and she met me at Uni. The rest you know already, if you have read this thread in its entirety. Shes aware that somethings wrong with her, shes aware that she needs therapy, but she also told me that she couldnt deal with it right now. I told her in the nicest way possible that she should consider it, because those scars will never heal if she doesnt deal with the pain, and keeping herself busy, partying etc, will only postpone it, never fix it. She knows this and she said thats why she cant be in a relationship with me or anyone at the moment. That it could take months or even years before shes ready to commit to a relationship again. Shes reading up on the subject of her issues from what shes saying, and is realising that the breakup is all about her and her issues, and not about me. She did try to point stuff out I did "wrong" but truth is, I never had a chance of knowing this stuff. She never opened up. She would say that I should have been more insistent on her opening up to me and tell her how wonderful she is, but trust me, I have done all those things she just was so in her shell, she didnt notice, and this is something she also pointed out herself, that she might have been too "closed" for it to have any effect on her. She actually couldnt remember very well. Btw, I never mentioned BPD, its not my responsibility to point that out, I was careful not to tag her with anything.

 

Heres what I found out, from what she told me and what I picked up during the conversation. She used most of these words herself.

 

 

-No self esteem

 

-Not being good enough

 

-Eating disorder (Cant stay away from comfort foods, even though shes trying to lose weight, she also cant give up smoking)

 

-Have a hard time being alone

 

-Not trusting anyone

 

-All her relationships have followed the same pattern, ours included, and shes become aware of it.

 

-She cheats, she lies (I know this from experience ofc)

 

-Insecurities about her looks and abilities, (nonsense, but yeah) Also told me that a lot of guys were courting her, even a 47 year old man. (I hated to hear this, but its obvious why she said it, so I played it cool)

 

-Jealousi, (she mentioned this as being one of the things she hated about herself the most)

 

-Abandonment fears, runs away from people before they abandon her

 

-Introvert anger, angry at herself, at things she says, at things she does, annoyed at her impulsivness too great expectations on herself

 

-Anxiety issues, also blaming her boss at work for work problems, not her fault

 

-back and neck pains, (shes always had them, I lost count of how many backrubs and massages I gave her), and shes beginning to wonder if its related to her state of mind

 

-Fears of what other people think of her, fear that the people who choose to study in projects with her have ulterior motives, not because they like her

 

-Believes that all men are basterds and only want one thing, (asked her if that was her view on me, she asked she didnt know what to think, seemed like she doubted it)

 

-I know shes practically addicted to sex, its one of the only things that makes her feel wanted and valued, (we also discussed this, I pointed out that it had been a problem for me, because nothing else I did or said seemed to satisfy her or give her validation)

 

-Feeling remorse and guilt. (And she said that she might come crawling back to me whenever she had worked on her issues, then turned it around and said that we could never be in a relationship again because she couldnt forgive herself for having cheated on me. She realised that its all about her and her issues, and thats she needs to get better).

 

 

So, we had dinner and talked some more. Then I did what I had to do. I told her that I understood that she was used to people not being there for her when she ran away, that I sensed she almost expected them not to, its what shes used to. So, I told her that I would be there for her, especially if she had bad days, that she could always come to me, (remember, Im one of the only people in the world she has ever opened up to like this, her family doesnt even know). That I would not be "that guy" who ran away, that my door was open if she needed my company, and that I would help her through this if she would let me. At this point she had doubts, because she knows how I feel about her, and I knew she would react like this. So, I made sure I didnt use the word "friendship", since yeah, Im not gonna be a friend to her, although I could tell thats what she wanted. I just left a "good guy" impression". I wanted her last impression of me to be the guy she cares for, not the drunken guy whiny guy. She was in doubt if I could see past my loving feelings for her as the one who wanted to be in a relationship with her, and just be there for her as a friend. I said that I just wanted her to get better, that was what was important to me. I told her that she shouldnt dwell on the guilt "cheating" issue anymore, that I had forgiven her and I had put it behind me. She said she would try.

 

So, in the end we watched some TV and had a few laughs, things seemed alright and we were smiling and I felt as though she was somewhat comfortable. I motioned her to come close to me, I put my arms around her, she put hers around me, and we just sat there for a little while.

During my stay I went to the bathroom and saw half a pack of birthcontrol pills on the sink. Told me all I needed to know, and confirmed my suspicions. I guess she forgot to put them out of sight. I didnt say anything.

 

Then I went to the hallway, put on my coat and she followed. We hugged, and while I held her I said "Lets put all this behind us and start over, I care so much for you and just want whats best for you and for you to be happy. She said "I care so much for you too" and smiled. I then kissed her on her forehead and turned to leave. I can be a bit goofy at times, and I must have done one of my small goofy quirks, cause she laughed and smiled, I overplayed my goofyness it and smiled back, she used to love this. We said our byes, and I left.

 

Now, you might think Im insane for breaking NC like this and Im back to square one. But in all honesty, Im not. Heres what it did for me:

 

I got closure, Im not left hanging anymore, (she might think I am, but shes not aware that Im now going into NC mode again, but I left the door open, something none of her former boyfriends did).

 

I put all the initiative on her, (thats why Im not left hanging, I dont have the obligation). See, I know shes not gonna call me or hang out with me for the next couple of months. She has doubts because of my feelings and thats fine, I dont want to be her friend anyway, Im not gonna step into that dreaded zone. What I did do is let her know and feel that I want whats best for her, and shes gonna remember this when the **** hits the fan. It was my only hope of a second chance down the line, and if that chance comes I probably wont even want her back, who knows.

 

I pretty much got confirmation that shes having a FWB. Yeah it hurts, but to be honest he doesnt hold a candle to me, shes using him because she cant be alone. That she tries to hide it from everyone is just sad, so people wont think shes a bad person. Im glad I know, and Im glad that shes not aware of that fact. Kinda feels like I have my control back.

 

Strengthened my suspicions that she is a high functioning BPD, so many sympthoms are there. It calmed me, because one of the worst things in all of this has been self blame, and not figuring out what I did wrong. Reality is, I didnt do anything wrong, which she actually told me tonight, (yeah confusing how she shifts). This relationship was doomed from day 1, and would never have a chance to work out unless she gets better. Also comforts me in case she would get together with her new FWB, because the same problems will arise again in time, trust me on this. Shes sounds like shes not ready to deal with the pain of her past, and thats entirely up to her. I think she realised tonight that she might have to face the pain to get better, I think I got through to her. She will probably escape that responsibility, but she will eventually have to face it.

 

Yeah the heartache is not gone ofc, and I will admit that I still miss her like crazy, but seeing her again I also began to see the flaws in my idealization of her. Nah, shes not perfect at all. Shes not the end all be all woman. Ive just never loved a woman like I love her, and because I love her that way shes just incredibly beautiful to ME. Well, shes very pretty and attractive to men, but hell, her character is flawed and I have been in denial about this.

 

So, with all that said, how do I feel now? Honestly? Like Im finally ready to move on. Im not gonna defriend her on facebook, but Ive have hidden her status updates so I wont see them when I log in. I brought her the stuff she had at my appartment, all of it so I dont have to be reminded of her all the time. I am going to see her at Uni once in a while, I will give her a friendly hello, but nothing more from me. Its on her, totally. Its time to work on me, going to the gym with a friend for the for the first time this wednesday. Ive made our mutual friends know that I dont want to hear about whats shes doing, that its time for me to heal.

 

If my gut instincts are right, I havent heard the last from my ex, I dont think this is the final chapter in the book. I, however, dont need to worry about it anymore. I have a life to live, and a destiny to fulfill. Im not waiting for her anymore, she knows this, and she will have to deal with it. My friend told me "Shes throwing away a diamond and she doesnt realise it, but she will in time".

 

In the midst of all this pain I have now found peace.

 

I did the right thing.

 

 

Thanks for reading everyone.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Rap17

[Downtown]

Rap, I'm so glad that you got a sense of closure from the meeting and are feeling so much better about yourself and your decisions. Thanks so much for taking the time to give us such a detailed update about your eventful meeting with her.

[Fufu]

Glad you found your closure

 

It keeps me from thinking, are all the dumpers so good in giving excuses?

[Rap17]

Rap, I'm so glad that you got a sense of closure from the meeting and are feeling so much better about yourself and your decisions. Thanks so much for taking the time to give us such a detailed update about your eventful meeting with her.

 

Thanks man, and youve been such a great help in helping me understand all of this. I think you can see why I have a legitimate reason to believe that she is suffering from a PD. Dont get me wrong, if she wanted to reconcile Id probably take her back in a heartbeat. But in a sense I guess my rationality just took over and I ended up doing what was right for me. Its ironic, cause most of the time when I hear about people breaking NC its because their emotions take over and they give in. Thats perfectly understandable, and I have done this numerous times regarding my ex as well. Yeah, my emotions was also involved in this, but I didnt let it overcome my rationality. I went there, fought for the relationship in silence, but most of all I fought for my own sanity.

 

Went to Uni today, didnt try and dodge her, saw her but she didnt see me. Our class had a meeting scheduled regarding a party in january, and shes organising it. That I chose to skip, since its likely the last time I would have before new years that I would be face to face with her in a formal situation. Told my classmates that I wouldnt be attending cause I was tired and needed sleep, which is actually true. My sleeping hours has been turned upside down and I only got two hours of sleep last night.

 

Its a matter of not being in a situation where she has a leadership role in my presence, especially considering the talk we had last night. I felt like its simply too early for me to be in that situation. Its also a matter of witholding my promise to myself, with strict NC from now on. February we all have to go into job training for 6 months, and I wont have any classes with her at all, so I wont have to be in that situation again for a long time. Its not that I couldnt handle seeing her, Its that I chose not to. Theres a huge difference. I felt strong today in class, for the first time in months, and I got remarks that people were happy to see me back, like they sensed a change in me.

 

Theres this other women in my class that I never really got to know well. Shes well, I guess you could say shes the "brain" of the group. We talked at a party, the same party where I asked my ex to be my girlfriend. My ex has always felt threatened by her, so I have never initiated contact with her outside of Uni. I never felt I was "allowed" to since my ex was so jealous of me striking up the conversation at that party, where we kinda connected and I got a sense that were like minded. She wanted a friendship, but yeah, I couldnt go through with it.

 

Im thinking about making up for that. Thinking of calling her and asking her to meet for a talk, then Ill come clean and tell her why I never followed up on it. She might not care anymore, but hell, Im a free bird. Just gotta work up the courage and do so. My ex still lingers ofc, and she probably will for a long time. I dont think Ill ever stop having feelings for my ex if Im totally honest, but a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. Female company is what I need right now, and Im not refering to sex. I will never have that kind of intimate relation with a woman when I have feelings for someone else, it wouldnt be fair and Id feel like crap afterwards.

 

Its such a shame that my ex has those personal issues, if she didnt we would still be together. But like I said, nothing I can do about it and if its meant to be she will get therapy, get better, and that will be the only chance I will ever have of reconciliation. I feel sorry for her, I really do. And I feel sorry for myself for being a victim in all of this, cause I dont believe I deserved any of this at all. The toughest matter in all of this is that I have had no say, no chance to do things differently and make positive changes to the relationship, she never really gave me one.

 

This is what I have come to accept, that in the end I was powerless, and Im never going to let that happen again. But its better than feeling guilt and remorse for things I did wrong, or for behaving badly. Strange how life punishes you for loving unconditionally, and I feel cursed for being that person. But I also truly and honestly believe that having that kind of heart is the greatest asset I will ever have. Its just a shame that people generally dont trust that ability, at least not in my experience, because most of those people dont have that ability themselves, or they guard themselves too much. Just like my ex. Its understandable that she doesnt allow herself to, or maybe cant, I think its obvious from what I posted about her past. But because I care deeply for her and want her to overcome her pain, I hope she does get there some day. Shes the love of my life and I have done all I could. Its out of my hands and its entirely on her, and that is whats giving me my power back, in small increments at a time. Hurts like nothing else.

[Rap17]

Glad you found your closure

 

It keeps me from thinking, are all the dumpers so good in giving excuses?

 

 

Well, that I cant answer. But seeing through those excuses and getting rid of the guilt, that has been a blessing if nothing else.

[Jeff M Stevens]

Rap,

 

First of all I'M SO SORRY for your loss. A breakup can feel like a death and you do need to go through the grieving process. Eventually you will be ok but right now you probably feel as if it will never happen. It will.

 

I will tell you that we teach guys to bottom line everything. The bottom line is that she cheated on you and lied to you.

 

You say that its because she's got issues.

 

I say none of that matters because her past issues should have nothing to do with her integrity but let's suspend that for the moment and say that everything she did wasn't her fault. Why would you want her even if it wasn't her fault?

 

Either way, whether or not she was disloyal to you via her conscious actions to you or not via her conscious actions, she was still disloyal.

 

The type of woman I want is someone that has it together before she meets me. I don't want to fix anyone nor do I expect anyone to fix me.

 

But you know what? In this case, her bad upbringing is only reason #7 for this situation.

 

The #1 reason you don't have her anymore and the #1 reason she put you through this pain is that she has no integrity and has low interest level in you.

 

The male ego is our downfall. Our male egos tell us that we can fix broken situations or if we just try harder, we'll turn it all around.

 

When you start the recipe with generous dashes of salt, don't expect to magically get a sugar dish on the other end and with this girl, she was not right to begin with.

 

How do you know? She proved to you via her ACTIONS that she was disloyal with low integrity.

 

I know of a couple where the woman had an absolutely HORRIBLE childhood, shuffled from home to home, never having a good base and she's a loyal wife that has given this man love and affection for many years.

 

She went through her childhood and came out the other end broken. Some, like the woman I talked about below, didn't. I'm sorry your girl is broken but why should you have to deal with that? You even admitted you're not a therapist and I'm sure if you wanted that career path you would have done that.

 

You don't need a woman to "fix," you need a woman that will be your lover and support you as you'll love and support her.

 

Please move on man. You don't want this woman back. Believe me that you don't. Your heart might be saying that you do but your life will be nothing but a TORTURE if you have her because I guarantee she'll do it again to you.

 

One chance, per woman, per lifetime.

 

Get someone you really deserve man. Get a sweet, supportive girl that you have no doubts about and leave this one in your rear view.

 

But also realize that you are going through a grieving process and you have to deal with the feelings as they come. Give yourself a chance to heal. When its right for you to be back out there your brain will let you know.

 

Good luck guy.

[Rap17]

Thanks for the reply Jeff and trust me, I do see where youre coming from.

 

Problem is that its in my nature to forgive and want her, despite what she did to me. I have some of the traits of the caregiver archtype, something Im determined to consider when Im ready to date other women in the future. But fact is that Ive come to realise I dont need her to survive, more that I really want her.

 

Also, I do put her issues at the top of my list when considering her integrity and morals. She is a victim of circumstances, does it excuse what she did to me? Not really, because I believe that people have a choice no matter what they say or do, no matter how impulsive or emotional they might be.

 

But I also have to consider her immaturity, and that experience does change people, for better or worse. The fact that she has come to realise that she has problems is what gives me hope. Not exactly a hope of reconcilation, (well, I admit its there), but more in the sense that she might have a shot at getting better down the road. Her actions in that department will determine wheter she winds up overcoming her issues or if shes destined to walk the path of broken relationships for years to come.

 

Well, I want her to get better because I love her. Not for my own sake, but for hers. Ironically, its also the only chance Ill ever have of reconciliation, if that day ever comes.

 

Most importantly though, Im free of her control and power over me. Yeah I miss her, but since our talk its the best I have felt with myself since the breakup 5-6 weeks ago. Not that I feel great, Im still feeling depressed and low, but Im getting nearer the acceptance phase. I think it will probably take months for me to get there completely, but its an indication that I did do the right thing by talking to her again.

 

Its an acceptance of her making the wrong choice, something I cannot influence at all. She discarded me and that is a loss thats greater than she realises. Youre right Jeff, in that Im worth more than being in a relationship with an egocentric woman with low morals. But I believe in the good in people, and I know she has a big heart, something Ive always pointed out to her. I know she wants to be that big hearted person, and in that I trust, but she has work to do before she can claim that title. Only then will she recognize what she has lost, and only then will I ever be able to trust her again.

[Jeff M Stevens]

This will be the last thing I say about this and I'm NOT TRYING TO INSULT YOU when I say this but you are FOOLING yourself.

 

You have high interest level in her and you are rationalizing it with "she has a big heart and I have a forgiving nature."

 

No, you are super fired up over this girl and you're trying to invent anything you can in your mind to let her in your life.

 

If that's what you want to do, its cool. Just remember that she lied to you and cheated on you which means she has low integrity and you are not going to fix that. Be prepared to wait for the other shoe to drop for life or at the very least be in a relationship or marriage that is loveless or at least severely limited in that department.

 

Unfortunately a lot of guys do that. They rationalize her slights, put downs, bad behavior and more because they have so much interest in her.

 

If guys would realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a normal woman with good morals and high interest level to cheat on them or lie to them then they'd be a lot better off.

 

You can end up with her, its your decision, but realize that you're only fooling yourself if you think she's ever going to be a 100% in your corner as you deserve from a loving relationship.

 

Good luck man, you'll need it.

[Rap17]

@Jeff: I do see your point mate, but trust me when I say my situation is a little different. An ex with a personality disorder, (which seems highly likely), will act differently than people who have none. Ive read hundreds of pages on the subject these past weeks and its all becoming clear to me. And ofc Im into her, I love her. But Im also letting go, cause I know I can do nothing else.

 

This week some new stuff has come up. Spoke to one of our mutual friends, (the one whos been very loyal to me), and hes telling me that the guy I suspect shes seeing is now working on a project at Uni with her. He also tells me theyre sitting together in class, he knows because he attends the same courses and has been keeping a watchful eye on her.

 

Ironically, this together with all the other information and signs Ive seen about them just further confirms my suspicions. Shes saying no more than 6 days ago that she doesnt want to be in a relationship right now, need to figure herself out etc, but I discovered that theyve been sleeping together 2-3 weeks after she broke up with me, (6 weeks since the breakup now).

 

It all dawned upon me. I have seen this happen before. Same behaviour, same pattern. When you might ask? When I got together with her. Same thing. Started out as friends, she was miserable in her relationship, I helped her through it, made her feel better. She then came onto me, broke up with her boyfriend, then came onto me even stronger. 3 weeks after that breakup we were sleeping together, two months after the breakup we started dating and oficially began our relationship.

 

Right now Im waiting for her to come clean about it, and that will probably only happen if they become a couple. But remember, its a secret, (just like she and I was in the beginning). Also means that she again has lied to my face, with practically no signs of guilt or shame. I was aware of her lying when we spoke, but I played it cool and acted like I was oblivious to that fact.

 

Same pattern and Im guessing the same behaviour, (this must have been how her ex ex was feeling, but according to her he wasnt the most intelligent guy to walk the planet, so who knows).

 

A breakup is hard on everyone involved, especially the dumpee. But breaking up without really communicating the problems, lying about her status and wishes, playing the guilt game, then secretly getting together with your worst enemy. Thats just downright BRUTAL! No wonder this breakup has been so hard on me, and still is, although I am getting better.

 

If this is not BPD behaviour, (on top of all the other signs of BDP), I dont know what is. Maybe hes a rebound because she cant handle being alone, (wanting not to be reliant on a man, being by herself, not ready for a commitment in her current mental state, all men are *******s....all BS), but I seriously doubt it.

 

And here I am on the outside, watching it all go down. And shes getting away with it. Also, I have to see them both at Uni, knowing what litteraly noone else knows, and her getting all the sympathy because Im the "older" guy.

 

I kinda feels like being objective and rational about the whole thing, while at the same time losing ones mind. You have no idea how much I ache to confront her about this, to tell her that Ive seen through the lies and the deceit. Who knows, maybe this has been happening during the last weeks of our relationship, would explain why she distanced herself from me. But alas, I know confronting her will not change anything, other than me getting the satisfaction of seeing the expression on her face.

 

Im not sure Ill ever be able to fully trust a woman again after this. Talk about being demolished.

[Downtown]

I'm not sure Ill ever be able to fully trust a woman again after this. Talk about being demolished.

Those are just intense feelings that will subside, Rap. As I said back in November, you are going to come out of this far far stronger than you went in. For a man who is going to be helping troubled children, your encounter with what appears to be a woman suffering from strong BPD traits gives you insights into basic human behavior that few men get in a lifetime.

 

For a caregiver like you, your experience will do what Paris Island does for marines. For the rest of your social work career, you will see your Ex in every juvenile school bully coming through your office door. You will be sensitive to how they are suffering, why they nonetheless must be held accountable for their own actions, and how their victims are hurting.

[Rap17]

Minor update. My second period of NC is now at day 11, but honestly Ive stopped counting, just did for this post. Im still going to be posting once in a while so the heartbroken people here on LS can see how a possible NC period looks like, and the emotions we go through as dumpees.

 

Nothing new under the sun about my ex, but signs that shes rebounding in secret are present, according to our mutual friend. If Ive been replaced before she broke up with me, if shes just seeking validation to counter her low self esteem and is simply using him, I have no idea.

 

Im still a bit of a mess, I dont have much of an appetite, I look like crap and Im trying my best just to stay afloat. But something is indeed changing on the inside. I still think about her every day, and once or twice a day Ill get this stinging sensation in my heart, the pain is still there. Good thing is that is not present all the time anymore, its becoming easier to distract myself from it. Ive started at the gym, and I feel like getting more fit in this situation is one of the best advices Ive heard on LS, it really gets quite addictive. I havent gone overboard, my body is not used to the strain, but working out three days a week is a good start I think.

 

Its like Im at the grieving stage where Im shifting between acceptance and depression, and that in itself has been a long journey. Ive spent load of time reading up on forums, reading relationship articles etc, and in the process begun to view the relationship more objectivly. Its like my brain has been slowly taking over the thought process, instead of me using my heart to think with.

 

See, I still believe that my ex has a personality disorder, and that I cant take responsibility for, but Ive lately been focusing on myself and what I can learn from the breakup.

 

Some things she said repeatedly through the breakup, and the meetings that followed after.

 

1: "I need to be validated" (The validation that seemed to only be gained through sex).

 

2: "Youre so hard to talk to"

 

3: "We dont communicate properly, we often misunderstand eachother"

 

 

See a common theme here? Now, ofc theres been loads of "its you not me", "Youre too good for me", "I dont feel the same anymore", "Maybe we will be together later but not now", "I need space, need to find myself" etc etc.

 

But what Ive come to realise is this. I should have listened to what she was saying about our communication, cause thats what she FELT was wrong. Some things Ive come to realise are that what she was trying to convey to me was that she needed to be heard, validated, that I understood what she was feeling and so on. To me this was puzzling. I thought back on how things were between us when we became a couple and then it dawned upon me; She fell for me because I was giving her ALL OF THOSE THINGS. And she lost attraction for me and broke up, (disregarding the guy in the wings for now), because those key elements were missing.

 

See, I didnt feel they were missing because I didnt have doubts about my feelings for her, and Ive always felt like Ive been open and honest in regards to my feelings for her. So what went wrong then?

 

She has a lot of hurt inside and no self esteem. When youre not loving yourself youre not capable of loving others, at least not in an unconditional way. In the beginning of our relationship I was mending the wound she has on her soul, my validation and confirmation of her was like a bandaid, stopping the bleeding and temporarily making her forget the pain, at least some of it. But see, if the wound is not tended to properly it will never heal, and in truth it never did. When I became stressed out with work etc, I couldnt give her the same attention that I used to. This wasnt obvious to me however, remember, my feelings were the same, I just didnt have the energy to give her the same level of affection for a time. Thats not my fault at all, and its not hers either, its just how life is sometimes. Relationships are full of ups and downs. See, me being at a lower energy/attention level was like removing that bandaid, and all her hurt/abandonment issues came back full force.

 

Me being stressed out, I was in a shell of my own. In that state its not truly possible to validate her in the same way, but I was too blind to really see it. I felt like I listened to how she was feeling, that I was validating her to the best of my ability etc, but in hindsight I can now see that it just wasnt possible like in the beginning, because I was having a hard time just being myself.

 

So, in a way she was right. Unfortunatly, and as Ive mentioned before, she has an open wound that requires serious treatment. See, the whole time shes been in her shell, hiding the pain, shes also been hiding herself in a way. All the self hatred, the guilt trips, the fears, the overwhelming need for validation, jealousi issues...its all been there all along, tucked away and ready to pop out when her needs arent met. What happens when we hide and cant open up fully? Our communication skills become limited and we arent able to fully communicate to the SO what we feel deep down. She has indeed been trying to tell me, to make me see it, but her communication has been severely lacking. In other words, she hasnt been able to make me understand completely, me being stressed out has just made it that much harder.

 

For months she would say that she missed the "old" me, (how I was in the beginning of the relationship), and I never understood what she meant. I do now. She was missing the guy that was making her feel better about herself, mending the pain so to speak. Problem is, that while I was there for her when it was obvious she was hurting, she hasnt been able to do the same for me. That is a huge red flag for me now, wish I could have seen it earlier. Take the bandaid off, even for a short period of time, and nothing you do or say will make the pain go away again. This is where I was "offed". She told me it was like we drifted apart, truth is, shes always been "apart" from me, I just stopped clinging for a while to take care of myself and it triggered her abandonment issues, her fears, her feelings of low self esteem. Naturally, my reaction was to cling heavily again, and she did come back another two weeks, but alas it was to no avail. I had made her feel the pain again, and now I suspect she sees me as an enabler of that pain, just like she did/does with past boyfriends and family members. Enablers of pain also serves her trust issues in a negative way, and confirms her beliefs that men are *******s. Whats her reaction to facing pain? She runs away, plain and simple.

 

So, what does she do? Contrary to what she says, she jumps into the sack with the next guy who is willing to put on a fresh bandaid. Shes seeking validation from tons of men, (and getting it, lots of guys hitting on her), and reapplying bandages to the wounds on her soul and heart. Sad thing is, the pain will still not go away until she seeks treatment. Again, its only quick fixes, going to parties, having fun etc. None of those things will EVER fix her real problems, only make her forget them for a while.

 

The last talk we had, she mentioned that she wasnt ready to face her inner demons yet, maybe she would in a couple of months when things settled down. I honestly dont think she will. I dont think shes strong enough to face the hurt, and will continue her self destructive cycle.

 

So how has these realisations helped me? Well, I wil agree that I havent been communicating as well as I could in the latter part of our relationship, but Im also not blaming myself for it because I couldnt have done anything differently. I am however, soothed by the fact that I do posses the abilty to communicate, mirror and validate quite well. I know Im quite competent when it comes to empathy and the care of other people. I just need to get myself back together, pick up the pieces and work on my shattered self esteem and ego, to become myself again. Thats one of the reasons the breakup was so shocking to me. I felt like I had been myself all along, when in truth I hadnt. I lost myself on the road somewhere. On the other hand, shes in a bad state emotionally, and she has probably always been that way. According to herself, she has been this way since forever, dating back to her early teens at least.

 

Her saying that I was hard to talk to. Well, to me that signals that she didnt feel like I listened to her, truly understood how she felt. In essence, I couldnt, because we were both in our shells, and she lacks the courage to fully open up and communicate her inner feelings, she has trained herself not to for years. What it would take for me to understand her under those circumstances would be to be near my mental peak. Thats something I will now work towards as part of the goal to better myself, and I know I can cause Ive been there before. I now know which direction I have to go to become my "old" self again, but not only that. To become a new and improved "old self" in the future. When Im at my peak theres nothing I cannot do, nothing that I cannot achieve. Dont worry, Im not narscisistic, I just know what it feels like to be very confident. Im not there now, but I know I will reach that level again.

 

I have a wounded heart. She has a wounded soul. I think, despite all, I got the better part of that deal.

 

Its true what people here have said. NC is a means to heal yourself and see things in a different light. To understand what truly went wrong in the relationship is also about being honest with my own shortcomings and what I contributed to the breakup. Im glad that I discovered that my own issues are very fixable, given time. I hope she breaks contact, but not now, and hopefully not too soon either.

 

I want her to see the new me when Im ready. Thats the only way shell discover that the old me was there all along. But Im starting to believe that I will not be there for her unless she gets treatment, at least not in any serious way, including friendship.

 

Like I mentioned, if you cant love yourself you cant love others. Ill get there in time, I have my doubts she ever will. But I hope so for her sake.

 

Because I love her.

 

 

Peace,

 

-Rap

[Downtown]

For months she would say that she missed the "old" me, (how I was in the beginning of the relationship), and I never understood what she meant. I do now. She was missing the guy that was making her feel better about herself, mending the pain so to speak.

Rap, if your Ex has strong BPD traits, she likely is not missing the real you but, rather, the idealized you -- an infatuation she was unable to sustain longer than six months. While you were idealized (thus being perfect), she was able to trust you and therefore was greatly comforted by your calming, healing words.

 

Yet, as soon as the idealization wore off, she lost the ability to trust you. (IMO, an untreated BPDer is capable of trusting you for a sustained period only when idealizing you to the point that you are nearly perfect.) Hence, following the honeymoon you could say all the right things (the very words she had found so calming earlier) and it would not help her because she could not believe what you said.

 

I therefore believe that the stress you underwent (causing you to be less attentive and validating) likely was not the main problem. Even if you had been able to maintain the same level of soothing attention, it would have been grievously inadequate anyway -- because her lack of trust could only be held at bay during the six month infatuation period, during which time you were perceived as the perfect man, her savior, her white knight.

 

With my exW, for example, I was the white knight in her eyes at the beginning -- and she got great comfort from the validation I gave her. After the honeymoon period subsided, however, she would only sporadically get short periods of idealizing me. Consequently, most of the time she never could believe anything I was telling her. Instead, she felt controlled and suspected that my validation and soothing attempts were just attempts at manipulation.

 

My point then, Rap, is that your Ex's withdrawal (and your inability to help her) were inevitable and likely had little to do with your being distracted by your own difficulties with school. Once the trust evaporated -- as it was certain to do when the short-lived magical infatuation period ended -- you were rendered powerless to help her and powerless to validate her -- no matter what you said.

[Rap17]

Rap, if your Ex has strong BPD traits, she likely is not missing the real you but, rather, the idealized you -- an infatuation she was unable to sustain longer than six months. While you were idealized (thus being perfect), she was able to trust you and therefore was greatly comforted by your calming, healing words.

 

Yet, as soon as the idealization wore off, she lost the ability to trust you. (IMO, an untreated BPDer is capable of trusting you for a sustained period only when idealizing you to the point that you are nearly perfect.) Hence, following the honeymoon you could say all the right things (the very words she had found so calming earlier) and it would not help her because she could not believe what you said.

 

I therefore believe that the stress you underwent (causing you to be less attentive and validating) likely was not the main problem. Even if you had been able to maintain the same level of soothing attention, it would have been grievously inadequate anyway -- because her lack of trust could only be held at bay during the six month infatuation period, during which time you were perceived as the perfect man, her savior, her white knight.

 

With my exW, for example, I was the white knight in her eyes at the beginning -- and she got great comfort from the validation I gave her. After the honeymoon period subsided, however, she would only sporadically get short periods of idealizing me. Consequently, most of the time she never could believe anything I was telling her. Instead, she felt controlled and suspected that my validation and soothing attempts were just attempts at manipulation.

 

My point then, Rap, is that your Ex's withdrawal (and your inability to help her) were inevitable and likely had little to do with your being distracted by your own difficulties with school. Once the trust evaporated -- as it was certain to do when the short-lived magical infatuation period ended -- you were rendered powerless to help her and powerless to validate her -- no matter what you said.

 

Funny you should mention this, cause after the first six months is where I started to become overloaded with work, due to recording an album in the summer and going into the field as a social worker, during this period I would sometimes ask her for an evening all to myself, simply because I was dead tired and just needed to dive into a hobby to recouperate. Now, I dont feel at fault for this, it was truly something I needed, and she was always welcome to stay at my place, watching a movie or whatever, while I did my own thing in the other room. During this period she became very clingy however, and small cracks sometimes started to show. It wasnt that I lost interest at all, but Im starting to think that I acted on instinct, that maybe I could somehow sense her behaviour.

 

One of the things that has been ever present in the relationship was the trust issue, and its quite clear to me now that it was there all along. During physical intimacy I was never able to give her a true orgasm. When she would be close to one, she would always fail to get one in the last second, she was never able to let truly go. This is a problem Ive never had with other women at all, and the sex was great. Often she would let me know that I was the best intimate partner shed ever had, and sometimes she would even start crying during the act because I was so attentive and affectionate of her in that vilnerable state. But again, she never truly let go. Ofc, her past experiences with men explains this quite clearly, and also explains why she doesnt trust men at all.

 

The final nail in the coffin in our relationship was when I didnt join her project group for our exams, but joined another, (a group consisting only of women mind you). Thats where she went really distant, and after three weeks of that she asked for the break. Her group asked me to come help them with some problem one day, with their exam project, and I went very willingly. I was eager to help any way I could. So, I get to their classroom and while Im explaining to them what knowledge I had of their predicament, she put her hands to her ears while reading in a book, completely ignoring me. Remember, we were still a couple. I was baffled, and so were the other people in her group. She was ignoring me, and when I asked what was wrong, she said that she was just reading something and needed some quiet to think the words. She kept this up the entire 15 mins I was there explaining stuff.

 

This I believe was her inner child showing, BDP sympthom, a child which Ive seen before in other instances. I didnt bring the issue up afterwards, but I kinda regret I didnt. Was really rude of her now that I think about it, and really some odd behaviour on her part. Like there wasnt any respect. Reason was that by not being in her group, like she thought I would be, (and i asked her it was ok that I was not), I triggered her abandonment issues in a big way.

 

Now, I will admit that I wasnnt there for her in the same way, during my stressed out period. Thats totally fair, and for her to feel that way is alright. Im not making excuses for her, just telling it like it is. But I never hid my feelings or ignored her feelings, and as she suggested during our last conversations, I might have done those things, but she was kinda closed off to it all.

 

I think youre right, that no matter what I could have done, it would not have been enough to sway her mind. The only thing I did that made her reconsider was the email I wrote during our one week break, which was very heartfelt and honest. But hey, then she broke up two weeks after that, even though she loved how I had treated her during that time.

 

Let me ask you Downtown, what do you think is the correct course of action in my situation? Im on NC now and its tough, but Im hanging in there. I want her to get better, I truly mean that, and I realise that shes the one who has to take that step. Down the road, is there any way to resume positive contact with a high functioning BPD? I told her Im here for her if she needs me, through the pain and the problems that will probably arise, but Im letting her initiating any and all contact, (she doesnt know Im going NC). Im not gonna be a puppy on a leash. Whats the best course of action here, in your experience? Just keep NC and see if she contacts me down the line? Respond to the contact if it occurs? Ignore her? Since we attend the same Uni, I will bump into her again. This february were going into the field for another six months, so thats my chance of getting away from her 100% of the time, and Im trying to dodge her until then. Come september however, were going to attend the same classes again, and I will see her a lot for that final semester of the education.

 

In my mind, our talk two weeks ago left a good impression. She was distant and not very emotional towards me, which was really different from the other talks weve had post breakup. Ofc, if she is indeed rebounding with that other guy then her mind is elsewhere I suppose. Its kinda like a power struggle, I just dont want to play that game anymore. If she is trying to convince me shes fine and over me, well then why the need to convince me in the first place?

 

Understand that Im REALLY not trying to grasp at straws by saying this, but I find it odd that when we talked two weeks after the breakup she was crying, very confused, showed feelings for me, talking about crawling back to me in time etc, then three weeks later, (after 2-3 weeks of NC, and I suspect sleeping with the rebound guy), she would be distant and telling me I was free to find love elsewhere, that she had plenty of offers from guys and that she was moving on. Does a change like this really occur in 2-3 weeks? I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that one.

 

By the way, its now been 7 weeks since the breakup, for those interested.

[Downtown]

is there any way to resume positive contact with a high functioning BPD?

If she is a high functioning BPDer, you will continue to pose a threat (of abandonment and engulfment) because you drew close to her in the past. Moreover, she will never trust you, which means you can never trust her. On top of those complications, you likely are a codependent caregiver like me. IMO, all of this implies that there is no way the two of you can have a safe non-toxic friendship unless she gets many years of therapy and you learn to establish much stronger personal boundaries -- and learn to enforce them (as you are starting to do now).

after the first six months is where I started to become overloaded with work, due to recording an album in the summer and going into the field as a social worker, during this period I would sometimes ask her for an evening all to myself, simply because I was dead tired and just needed to dive into a hobby to recuperate.

My point, however, is that none of this would have bothered her during the initial infatuation period, which typically lasts up to six months. During that time, her inability to trust was suspended. Hence, that lack of trust would have undermined your relationship no matter how many evenings you had fully devoted your time to her. Indeed, too much intimacy would have caused her to push you away -- as you found out during the wonderful last two weeks of your relationship.

Reason was that by not being in her group, like she thought I would be, (and i asked her it was ok that I was not), I triggered her abandonment issues in a big way.

I agree. I believe you are very perceptive about that incident.

One of the things that has been ever present in the relationship was the trust issue, and its quite clear to me now that it was there all along. During physical intimacy I was never able to give her a true orgasm. When she would be close to one, she would always fail to get one in the last second, she was never able to let truly go.

Perhaps you are right. My interpretation, however, is that her inability to "let go" during sex is an example not of trust issues but, rather, her engulfment fear. As I discussed earlier, her weak and unstable sense of self makes it very frightening to be truly intimate because the feeling of losing oneself into another person makes her feel like she is evaporating into thin air -- or like an extension of you. This is why BPDers tend to treat their spouses so awful right after a great evening or weekend spent together. They push the spouses away (with an argument started over nothing) in order to have breathing room and feel like they are separate people (not just extensions of someone else).

In my mind, our talk two weeks ago left a good impression. She was distant and not very emotional towards me, which was really different from the other talks we've had post breakup.

Rap, I was biting my tongue two weeks ago when you were so euphoric about achieving closure and leaving a good impression with her. As I said earlier, it is impossible to build up any store of good will with a BPDer because, when the next strong wave of feelings sweeps through her mind -- or the next time she suddenly splits you black -- all of that good will is swept away. Hence, trying to achieve closure, appreciation, or a lasting "good impression" is pointless with an emotionally unstable person.

 

I didn't say anything about this two weeks ago because, with all the pain that you had been suffering, I was so pleased to see you feeling good and feeling like you had achieved closure. I nonetheless agree with Jeff's position that the closure is an illusion. As I argued earlier, your trying to establish a lasting good impression or sense of closure with a BPDer is as productive as building a sand castle beside the sea. It likely will be washed away very quickly. Hence, to answer your question about how to behave around her, I strongly recommend that you be cordial while being the most boring person in the world. That is, when she tries to pull you into one of her dramas, you would respond pleasantly by vaguely saying "I am out of touch with my true feelings right now," "Perhaps you are right -- I will have to think about it," "That's an interesting thought," and the 80's classic "Whatever." Being vague and boring will get you kicked out of her drama school. To achieve that, however, you first have to accept the idea that it is impossible for you to leave a lasting good impression with her -- so you let go of that impossible goal.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Downtown

[Rap17]

Thanks so much Downtown. I can see how the engulfment thing makes sense, and fits my situation quite accurately. Regarding my relief of getting closure, or the illusion of such, I gotta admit that even though I now understand that I didnt get it fully, it has still made me feel better about the whole thing.

 

Im still spending and awful amount of time browsing forums, looking for answers, but its more about me finding answers about myself now. I still dwell on her, I guess Im still pining, but my focus has shifted more towards myself. Still a transition phase, but Im feeling better. Pain is still there, but its not as pronounced, at least not all the time. Theres still a little ways to go before I can start focusing and bettering myself in a big way, but Im getting there in small increments, and the gym is helping out a lot. Its becoming addictive actually. I think Ill be ready to kick into a higher gear come New Years, so Im making that my new deadline. In the meantime Ill allow myself to grieve some more. Hard to explain, but I sense its something I have to go through, rough as it is. My motivation is not going to go from 25% to 100% in one day, so allowing some time to pass makes sense to me. Dont want to do it half-heartedly.

 

Im still having problems with FB. She posted a new profile picture of herself, looking really hot, and guys commented on it. Hurts every time that happens. I know shes just doing it for attention and validation, still, its like a kick in the teeth. Its kinda hard to avoid her pictures since we have mutual friends on there, but at least the pain is not as bad as it was in the beginning. People will say that I could just delete her, but it doesnt fit with my offering of being there for her. I told her I dont want to be the guy that abandons her like the others, and Im not going to, not yet. See, I have formed a plan. The rebound guy, my old nemesis. If they become official, and the secrets out of the bag, then Ill have a perfectly valid excuse, (in her eyes), to kick her to the curb. Thats the time I will do it, in the meantime Ill keep up appearances.

 

But Im not posting anything, Im always have the chat window set to offline mode, and Im continuing to act like a ghost, online and at Uni. Ive simply dissapeared, although I did discover that shes asking about me, she mentioned that much when she wrote me, prior to our talk two weeks ago. I know I can have no expectations of her, but I do have one. I have a feeling shell call or text me for christmas. See, I was alone last year and she came by after having been with her family. She doesnt know that Im not going to be alone this year, so to relieve some guilt, I think she will contact me in some way. I wont be dissapointed if she doesnt, but knowing her, I would be surprised if I dont hear anything.

 

But no matter what she will get no response. Feeling slightly better every day by not seeing her or hearing from her. I will admit that its a tough thing to swallow, that shes emotionally unstable, even though shes aware of it herself and Ive seen all the signs. And Downtown, what youve been telling me in your posts makes a whole lot of sense. Judging from your responses I sense that it makes a whole lot of sense to you too, which is a comfort.

 

Yeah, I do have those codependancy traits, but its something Im not thinking about much these days. Just from the awareness of those traits alone have I realised what to look out for in the future when dating, and Im not too worried about it. It will always be a part of me I guess, but after this mess I dont think it will be clouding my judgement as much. At least not when it comes to initiating a new relationship down the line.

 

An emotionally unstable, immature, possibly g.i.g.s. struck, lying and cheating 22 old female. Like they say, a pretty face isnt everything, and despite all of this I still love her. Life can be cruel sometimes.

 

Downtown, one thing she mentioned during our last talk. "One of the reasons we can never be together again is because I cheated on you". Either shes making an excuse, or shes still guilt ridden. She seems to be so bogged down with guilt, but at the same time its like shes nonchalant about it at times. When she broke up with me, she broke down crying, mentioning her feeling guilty about it. But last time we spoke, she said the same thing, being very distant and almost cold about it. Is this common behaviour for BPD´ers? The guilt stuff I mean?

 

I forgave her for it, why does she keep bringing it up as the primary reason for the breakup? Heh, Im just trying to gain more perspective, to possibly get some of the answers she will never give me. Youre a big Help Downtown, appreciate it.

 

 

EDIT: Btw, something that I wanted to add. She mentioned to me that shes been talking a lot with her best friend, (another girl), about our relationship after the breakup. She has apparently helped her a lot through this whole ordeal, and thats fine, Ive been talking a lot to my male friends too. But see, my male friends are pretty much all in longterm relationships and are giving me great advice based on experience. Theyre all around my age, (In their thirties). Her friend however, is 22, and hasnt had a single longterm relationship in her adult life, shes been single for a long time. It bugs me to no end that shes taking advice from someone who can practically give none on the subject, actually hehe, its kind of pissing me off just thinking about it. Sure she can tell her how great single life is, and shes a sweet girl, but cmon. As a grown man it seems a bit ridiculous.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Rap17

[Downtown]

"One of the reasons we can never be together again is because I cheated on you". Either shes making an excuse, or shes still guilt ridden. Is this common behaviour for BPD´ers? The guilt stuff I mean?

No, BPDers find guilt so extremely painful that they tend to avoid it at all costs -- to the point of not even recognizing it at a conscious level. Although they will sometimes apologize profusely for something, there is no follow-through to prevent it occurring again. That is, you will sometimes see them express "regret," but rarely will see -- if ever -- true remorse.

 

What is typical for a BPDer is having such a painful "shame response" that she will not allow herself to feel responsible for -- or guilty for -- any of the awful things she did to you. The feeling of shame originates in early childhood and is so strong that it is easily triggered by anything that makes her feel guilty. As I explained earlier, a BPDer hates herself so much -- and has such a weak ego -- that the last thing she wants to admit to is one more thing that will be added to the long list of things she hates about herself. Hence, if your Ex was truthful when she said she was dumping you because of her guilt over treating you badly, her strong BPD traits could not explain that behavior. I really doubt, however, she was truthful about that. Like you said, it sounds like a convenient excuse.

I forgave her for it, why does she keep bringing it up as the primary reason for the breakup? ...Im just trying to gain more perspective, to possibly get some of the answers she will never give me.

The fact that you would ask this question -- and keep trying to tease apart her rationales for the FB posting and other actionds -- proves that your child (i.e., the intuitive part of your mind) is months behind your adult, intellectual understanding. As I said earlier, the intellectual understanding is the easy part. What is hard is leaning to feel it true at a gut level.

 

If you really felt -- at your emotional core -- that she has strong BPD traits, you would not be asking all these questions. It makes no sense whatsoever to expect an emotionally unstable woman to have a rational basis for her leaving you. A BPDer experiences such intense waves of feelings that they constitute her reality. When the feeling change, her "reality" changes and she will produce a new set of rationalizations to justify her behavior in that new set of circumstances. Significantly, this tendency of her mind to be shooting off in different directions in different weeks is why she desperately seeks out a strong personality to center her (and, sadly, she will later reject that strong personality because she will feel strongly that he is "controlling" her).

 

But, intellectually, you already understand all that. So you must be amazing yourself at how silly it is to try to make sense out of her world of strong feelings -- and, yet, that is exactly what you are trying to do. Well, that is okay for now. What you are witnessing is your ability to have strong mixed feelings. They are so strong that one part of your mind knows you cannot predict or decipher the rationalization of a woman whose perceptions of you are distorted -- and another part strongly feels the opposite and wants her back. That ability to tolerate paradox and contradictions within your own mind -- a skill that BPDers do not have -- is a sign of a well integrated strong personality. Given another year or so, you will work it out and fully resolve the contradiction.

 

But, given that you are not there yet, I can only appeal to your adult logic. There is no way I can convince your child that it makes no sense to try to tease apart everything said and done by the unstable woman. Indeed, the woman herself likely does not understand why she left you even if she "strongly feels" she knows the answer.

Im still spending and awful amount of time browsing forums, looking for answers, but its more about me finding answers about myself now. ... my focus has shifted more towards myself.

That statement is at odds with your statement that "Yeah, I do have those codependancy traits, but its something Im not thinking about much these days." Like I said, during your healing process, you are a bundle of contradictions. Moreover, your ability to do the wise thing will often be undermined by the child part of your mind, who controls you by defining "what is fun" and "what is not fun." Your adult will usually conclude that it makes no sense whatsoever to do things you don't enjoy or to abandon people you enjoy so much. What is important at this stage, then, is closing the gap between your child and adult. It takes time. But you are doing well, Rap. Edited December 14, 2010 by Downtown

[Rap17]

Man, wish I had time to give a detailed response Downtown, but in a bit of a hurry so will just throw in a quick update for now.

 

A mutual friend talked to her last night, and well, it kinda changed my perspective on the whole thing. BPD or not, this is my outlook now:

 

She texted him and asked him about me, that she was thinking about me and worried for me. She knows that I talk to him about her, so thats why she did it, no hidden agendas, ulterior motives or anything like that.

 

He confided in her that I was worried she was seeing the guy I mentioned earlier. Apparently she got upset and was disgusted by the thought, that she wasnt with him and never would be. I dont know what to think about this, but if she says these things to our this guy, then it could very well be the truth. She also told him that she had met some guy in a bar recently and been kissing with him, and the following days he had shown an interest in her. She had visited him but nothing happened, since she felt like she wasnt ready for such a thing. Seems the breakup is still taking its toll on her, at least somewhat.

 

My friend told me that she genuinly seemed to care for me a lot, but that she had told him that it just wasnt working out. She asked him if it would be a good idea to write or call me up, but he told her that it probably wouldnt be, since he knows Im in NC atm, (he didnt tell her), and he told her that she needed to give me space for now. Thats perfectly fine, cause I wouldnt answer anyway, unless she wants to talk things over again and give me another chance.

 

Its a relief to me that she isnt with that guy I suspected her of seeing, cant tell you how much that means to me. I have been waiting for weeks for it to become official, but apparently theyre just friends like she said. Our mutual friend suggested that she might have been using him for company, because she has a hard time being alone, but that was probably it. Sure, she may be lying. But she told our friend about everything else, so I dont think so.

 

Regarding the other guy she met, well, shes free to do whatever she likes even though it hurts to hear about it. But I have to admit that it gives me hope that she couldnt go through with it, that I sense she still has feelings for me in some way. I guess all I need now is to stay NC and give it time, perhaps she will reconsider down the line, but I think I do have to better myself to make that a possibility.

 

Im glad he had that talk with her, cause now I dont feel like Im stuck anymore, waiting for the dreaded info about the other guy and her. Knowing that she seemingly hasnt left me for someone else is what fuels the hope for reconciliation, something that isnt a possibility now ofcourse. Im in a good position to move on now, and I know thats exactly what I have to do no matter what happens, reconciliation or not.

 

I dont know, Im doing ok. I really miss her, but thats nothing new. But I sense Ive regained some power and some confidence. Let me know what you think if you have any advice. Im guessing most people will tell me to stick to NC and let her make the move if shes willing. Thats my plan anyway. Let her feel how life is without me, and then maybe she will cave in at some point. Its been 2½ weeks of the second round of NC now, and 7 weeks since the breakup. That shes asking about me and thinking of me every time I dont have any contact with her for a couple of weeks is a good sign I think.

[Downtown]

That shes asking about me and thinking of me ... is a good sign I think.

No, not a good sign IMO. It just means that your drug of choice is still available. You are still experiencing withdrawal pains from your addictive relationship and she is about to offer you one more ecstatic heavenly fix. You won't be ready to consider anyone's advice until you hit bottom again the next time she cuts you off. Well, enjoy your self, Rap. We will still be here when, a few months hence, you come back writhing in pain. The intuitive child-like part of us only seems to make great learning strides when it is in great pain.

[Rap17]

Downtown, no worries. Its my heart that keeps the hope alive, Im fully aware of that. Im just exposing how I feel in my post, I find it really helps to get it all out. But no matter how I might feel Im not letting it influence my actions at all, in this regard Im following my brain. I know, that no matter how much I love her, no matter how much I miss her, theres no way I can open up communications with her. Yes, shes emotionally unstable, yes shes immature, and yes I totally understand thats something I dont need, that if she changes her mind or plays me along, I will get burned again. No doubt in my mind about that at all.

 

But, I also have faith that people can get better, can mature and change. Shes a naive girl and she has her issues, and if there was ever to be any hope for us, she would have to overcome those things to have a chance with me again. See, Im tired. Ive been dragged through the mud and been through hell already. I wont allow myself to hit rock bottom again in relation to her. But should she make the effort and mature over time? yeah, I would consider it and weigh the positives/negatives.

 

For her to get there could take many months, years even. Im not waiting around for that, I have convinced myself that Im better than that, truly I have. If something better comes along, and if Im emotionally ready to give someone new a shot, then surely Ill jump the opportunity. But right now, no matter how objectivly I can view my situation, my heart still belongs to her.

 

If she surrendered herself to me tomorrow, would I go back? Sure I would, but thats my heart talking and every time that happens I vent, then my brain takes over. But no matter what, no matter how strong my feelings are, I refuse to give in because what I need most right now is space. To get away from her and her words. NC is the path I have chosen for myself, even though my heart is screaming the opposite.

 

Its very hard to ignore my instincts, it goes against everything I have learned in my life experiences. But I know I HAVE to, and I will act accordingly. Dont lose faith in my resolve, just trust me. When I post here, sometimes its my heart talking, sometimes its my brain. But its all just to let everything out, to go through the motions. This place is truly blessed, and its helping me cope day by day, week by week.

 

Im in a much better spot than I was a month ago, much much better. But I still have a long ways to go, and Im not strong yet. Getting there, inch by inch. I guess I know Im healed when my brain has killed off any hope I have left in my heart.

 

Biggest problem in letting go is that of experience. Im 34 years old, have been with several women through my adult life. Beautiful and intelligent women, been ups and downs, good times and bad times. Been in love more than once, but this relationship has been different. When you experience true love you know its the real thing, theres no denying it. Call me a hopeless romantic, and maybes thats true. But to deny oneself the hope of true love, that might just be the hardest thing a man can ever experience.

[Rap17]

Alright, so I took the step. I deleted her on Facebook. Everyone here is absolutely right, its about self respect and dignity. Hurts like hell but it was the right thing to do.

 

How can she realise what she threw away if Im not really "away"? So, keeping up NC and now Ive cut the friendship cord. Im not going to be second best to her. Its all or nothing.

 

Will see if this develops and she reacts to it, and will update this thread if anything new happens. Thanks.

[Downtown]

Smart move, Rap! It is encouraging to see you enforcing the boundaries you've set.

[Rap17]

Smart move, Rap! It is encouraging to see you enforcing the boundaries you've set.

 

One of the hardest things Ive ever done my friend. My feelings are the same as theyve always been, but she HAS to take responsibility for her actions, and if Im being honest she hasnt treated me like a friend at all post breakup.

 

If theres one thing I hate in life its when someone takes me for granted. She cant have it both ways, she has to learn she cant get a free pass in everything she does.