Am I doing the right thing?

[D-Lish]

One of the hardest things Ive ever done my friend. My feelings are the same as theyve always been, but she HAS to take responsibility for her actions, and if Im being honest she hasnt treated me like a friend at all post breakup.

 

If theres one thing I hate in life its when someone takes me for granted. She cant have it both ways, she has to learn she cant get a free pass in everything she does.

 

Think of it in reverse Rap. You have to learn no one gets a free pass when it comes to you and the boundaries you assert. You'll take the power back when you set the precedence.

 

When you want something so bad, it's easy to hand over the power to another person. BUT, in reality, you are the one that controls what you allow and what you don't allow. What's control? Quite often it's standing up and saying "no".

 

You deleted her, you are taking a stand- good for you.

[Rap17]

Think of it in reverse Rap. You have to learn no one gets a free pass when it comes to you and the boundaries you assert. You'll take the power back when you set the precedence.

 

When you want something so bad, it's easy to hand over the power to another person. BUT, in reality, you are the one that controls what you allow and what you don't allow. What's control? Quite often it's standing up and saying "no".

 

You deleted her, you are taking a stand- good for you.

 

Thats very true, and I do feel like Ive taken some of that power back, but Im also feeling really sad.

 

I logged in again and couldnt find her in the search tab. I could find her on mutual friends lists though, and access her profile that way. But I guess that means shes blocked me right? Since I cant find her when searching for her?

[whammy]

i think you need to wade through all the crap and see reality. seriously, she thinks your so great and she loves you so much that she cant be with you?...yeh that makes sense.

[Rap17]

Sorry for the bump but I feel like I need to post an update on the situation, to get it all out there.

 

A couple of days after I deleted my ex from FB I guess I caved in and did something stupid. I dont know if it was a moment of weakness or whatnot, but heres what happened. I was sick and tired of all the games and lies, so I figured the mature and sensible thing to do was to text her why I did it, to come clean. I let her know that I deleted her because I heard she had been seeing someone privately, and that it was none of my buisness, that I was just dissapointed that she hadnt said anything since she told me that she wasnt going to date anyone else until she got her issues figured out, and that I just wasnt ready to see status updates of her with another guy. Also, I texted that I had told our mutual friend about her cheating on me in the past, and that I just wanted to tell the truth, nothing more.

 

5 minutes later she called me back. She was furious, told me I was ****ed up (litteraly), and that she had lost all respect for me. Reason was she was at a christmas dinner and our mutual friend was there (sigh), and that she felt I was ruining the party for her. I tried to calmly explain that I just told her of my actions as to have a clean slate and not beat around the bush anymore. She said some nasty stuff and then hung up on me. She has a temper and can be very impulsive, and since she had a bit to drink I didnt let this get to me. Instead I texted her back and told her I would call her up the next day, (when she had cooled down).

 

The next day she phoned me. We had texted back and forth to figure out a good time to talk and it seemed alright, but when I picked up she was cold and angry. I told her that I felt like she had blown it way out of proportion since I didnt do it to spite her, I did it simply just to let her know, and that I figured it was for the best to tell her immediatly, instead of keeping it from her. I hadnt figured the party would be a big deal, which I still dont to be honest.

 

Well, she told me that she practically meant what she said the night before, and blamed me for abusing our mutual friend, telling lies about her and all sorts of stuff. She told me she wanted for me to have come to her and talked to her first, before talking to the friend and assume things about her, and about her seeing the other guy. Then she reaffirmed that she hadnt been dating anyone else, but later insinuated that she had been "doing stuff" with a guy. When I tried to be rational and adult she kept saying "Im tired and I dont want to talk about it" etc, avoiding the issue. She was so angry and spiteful towards me and then I finally snapped. I told her that she broke up with me, that I didnt have any obligations towards her anymore and that it in no way occured to me to phone her up and ask her about those things when all I had gotten from her during our two month breakup was one single message on facebook, asking if I was ok. She tried to argue further and brought our mutual friend into the mix again but I didnt bite. Silence, then I waited for her to hang up. She angrily gave me a "have fun with you new buddy", "ill see you when I see you" and then hung up.

 

So, everything was out in the open. I really felt bad, not because I did anything wrong, but because of her reaction to all of this. But the story doesnt end here.

 

On the 23th of december I was feeling so low. The person I love more than anything resented me, I was looking at possibly spending christmas alone, and I just wanted to be at peace. No more drama, no more hard feelings, just peace.

 

So, I wrote her a PM on facebook, explaining my actions to her in a collected way, (I didnt really get the chance to beforehand), that I agreed with her that the timing was bad, (I didnt think so but had to give somewhere), but that I still thought it was the right thing to do. Told her that I wanted no more drama, that I wanted to start over with her on friendly terms and put the past behind us. I told her that since she had made it clear she didnt want anything to do with me, that I would give her peace and quiet, but that I would add her on facebook again and then she could accept or not. We use facebook for class messages at Uni and I told her that at least it would give me the opportunity to get those, shes usually the one posting them.

 

She wrote me back the same day. She explained that I hadnt been strong enough to be there when she needed me, (when I was stressed out), and that I just made mistakes like all men do (what the hell), and that I was only human. She said that she didnt want peace and quiet from me, that she really cared for me but had lost a lot of respect for me because of what I texted her, but that she understood that I wasnt out to ruin her evening. She told me that she hadnt been angry at me before those texts, and that she wanted me to accept that we could only be friends, and that she was struggling with past issues of neglect and validation. She said she was thinking of therapy, but in the same sentence mentioned that maybe she just had to be patient and time would perhaps mend the issues she has, that she was learning a lot about her identity and stuff. She said she would like to see me in the new year, and then maybe we could grab a cup of coffee. That she just wanted to start over as well. Then she wished me a merry christmas and re added me on facebook.

 

There was no real anger in her message, but she did play the guilt game a bit. Im so far in the healing process that Ive begun to set boundaries and not take it all to heart anymore, so I wrote her another message back. I told her that I didnt want to bring up the past again, but that I had to say that I felt like her saying that I wasnt "strong enough" at that time, wasnt because I didnt care. It was because she hadnt communicated her needs to me, and as a result I didnt have a chance to act on it. I told her that I just wanted us both to take a reponsibility for what happened and then just leave it be. Then I told her that stuff had come between us, things like, mistrust, disrespect and so on. That if we were to have any friendly relations we would have to work on those things together, meaning she would have to show me that she wanted me in her life, that it had been completely one sided during our breakup. That I also cared for her but that it was important that she showed some initiative towards me, in order for me to trust her back. I explained that it wasnt impossible to work on these things, that it would just take time, but that I couldnt do it alone. A fresh start, not today or tomorrow, but maybe weeks/months down the line. Said all of this calmly and with no ill intend.

 

She wrote me back, taking full responsibility for the breakup. Explained that she felt so guilty for cheating on me, and that she couldnt look me in the eyes the same way again. That she was sorry for hurting me and that she could never ever forgive herself for it. She again said that she wanted to be friends and we would see what happens in the new year. said some other stuff but this is the gist of it. She also told me, that despite anything I said or did, and that I had forgiven her for what she did, she could never forgive herself.

 

I wrote her back again, just basically repeating what I said earlier and mentioning that "never" is a big word indeed, and that there was no need for her to be a martyr. That I cared for her and that I wanted to be there for her, but that she had to show me some intitiative. That I was trying to move on and that I couldnt keep running after her, that she would have to come to me.

 

Then she sent a final message. I think she realised I was pulling away, cause this message was different. She basically pulled away herself, telling me that she didnt know if it was possibly to work on what had come between us, and she wasnt sure if she wanted to. That she didnt want to talk this way on FB anymore and that it sounded like I was just talking "gibberish" (translation: when I make sense). That she had to figure out herself and what she wants, and that she wasnt sure it could ever be the same between us. She said that she hoped the best for us both in the new year and that we could meet up when she and I both were ready for it. Then she wished me a happy new year and said goodbye.

 

I didnt respond and Im not going to so no worries. What I accomplished was burying the hatchet, at least for myself. I didnt want to message her on FB, I really didnt. But again, I wanted our last convo to end on a positive note. Maybe it didnt for her, but it did for me. Because Im now pulling away completely and going NC again. Something Ive been trying to several times, but she alwasy reeled me back in. Theres nothing more I can say. Everything is out in the open on my part, and Im just left with this lingering pain and wondering where the woman I love went. Shes like a total different person towards me now, like my old girlfriend never existed.

 

Despite the hurt, at least its peaceful. Ive removed her from my FB feed so I cant see what happening in her life, and Ive having some succes staying away from her profile, (thats a first). All I can say is that it feels so right to know that I cant act, that I dont want to act and that she now knows that Im not going to do anything, unless she comes to me in a meaningful way. Since we study at Uni together, at least it will make that part easier. So, Im gonna try to have fun tonight and then just try to move on the best I can. Theres no way Im will contact her again, and if I see her in the hallways Ill just say hi and walk on by. I dont know what to expect from all of this, maybe someone here on LS can chime in with something.

 

So, for anyone whos wondering. Its been 2 months and 1 week since the breakup. Two first weeks I did the usual mistakes, crying, whining, begging etc. Then 3 weeks of NC, then she contacted me and we met up. Then another 3 weeks of NC, then our mutual friend called me and gave me some new info. I deleted her on fb, texted her etc, and then the facebook convo. And now, its been almost another week of NC. From all of this and especially our last convo, it feels like Im in some kind of push/pull dynamic, but I might just be seeing things.

 

Ill might bump into her at Uni in january, but come february Im going to work in the field, (social work), so Ill have 6 months where I possibly wont see her at all. So, the boundary is set, its her initiative and Im not going to accept any crumbs she throws my way. Like I said, it has to be meaningful and sincere. I truly love her, but I have accepted that theres nothing I can do. All I can do is be the adult in all this and set boundaries, to regain some of that lost self respect and dignity. I sense Im heading in the right direction, even though my heart is still in pain.

 

Thanks for reading everyone, and happy New Year.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Rap17

[SDA]

Thats very true, and I do feel like Ive taken some of that power back, but Im also feeling really sad.

 

I logged in again and couldnt find her in the search tab. I could find her on mutual friends lists though, and access her profile that way. But I guess that means shes blocked me right? Since I cant find her when searching for her?

 

No it just means you have to refriend someone you blocked. She didn't block you.

 

I just got a private message from my ex asking if facebook made mistake and we're not friends anymore. Woops.

[Downtown]

Rap, thanks for the update. I was wondering how you are doing.

What I accomplished was burying the hatchet, at least for myself.

IMO, you accomplished nothing and took a step backward by contacting her. Because you are such a caregiver, any contact you have with her over the next year or two -- i.e., while your "heart keeps hope alive," as you say -- is toxic to you. Because a BPDer is unstable and will keep flipping from adoring you to hating you, there absolutely is no such thing as "burying the hatchet." Nothing is resolved. There is no closure. There never will be. You already know this intellectually but your heart (i.e., intuitive part of your mind) does not feel it to be true yet. This is why the adult part of your mind should be enforcing a strong boundary of NC with this woman other than having to smile as you walk past her at school.

 

I agree that you are growing stronger and moving in the right direction overall (ignoring your willingness to talk with her on the phone -- sigh). At this point, however, your "boundaries" are so weak she can pull you back anytime she wants to make the effort. Specifically, having a boundaries that say she must be sweet, respectful, and non-confrontational -- when you are dealing with BPDers -- is having no boundaries whatsoever. BPDers can easily meet those conditions while also giving you adoration and passionate sex beyond your wildest dreams.

 

When they are good, they are very, Very, VERY good. And your exGF likely is capable of sustaining that illusion for two or three months if she wants to. With a BPDer, the only effective boundary for you is absolute NC or, if you are forced to see her during class, going NC outside of class and virtually NC inside of class. Otherwise, you remain at great risk of taking her back, IMO.

So, everything was out in the open.

But how can that possibly matter? Her perception of your intentions and motivations will always be distorted -- even if you paint an explanation on the wall. Out in the open means nothing.

I really felt bad, not because I did anything wrong, but because of her reaction to all of this.

Again, for the hundredth time, her reaction and opinion of you mean nothing. Whatever she thought of you yesterday is likely already gone, replaced by whatever feelings sweep through her mind today. As I said before, trying to build up a store of good will in her mind is like like building a sand castle on the seashore.

 

More broadly, I am concerned about your ability to help troubled children when you complete your psychology schooling. Given the current height of your personal boundaries, Mr. Caregiver, those kids are going to eat you for breakfast. You will burn out in that job within two years. I would not be surprised if at least half of those kids were abused in early childhood are suffering from strong traits of BPD or another PD. So, please, have a great New Year celebration tonight and, after the clock strikes 12, make some New Year resolutions that have teeth.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Downtown

[Jeff M Stevens]

I sense Im heading in the right direction, even though my heart is still in pain.

 

Thanks for reading everyone, and happy New Year.

 

I think you are heading for another disaster with another girl. You have wasted so much time going back and forth with a woman that CHEATED ON YOU (but that you rationalize) and you actually wanted her not to resent you and end things on a positive note?

 

I say WHO CARES what she thinks? She broke your trust and should be in your rearview for life. I understand the need to grieve but to go back and forth with her is a complete waste of time.

 

Until you realize that you have self-worth and stop wimping out with women that treat you badly, you are doomed to get smoked like this again.

[Rap17]

Well, I guess youre right guys. I have been dumped before in the past but its been nothing like this. I guess it could be since Im in my thirties and for the first time I was with a women who I could honestly see myself settling down with. She often brought up moving in together and having children, after we completed the education. I guess its not just the woman I love that Ive lost, but also my dreams of a better life, which makes this insanely painful.

 

No excuses, but do realise that I have actually only been in contact with her twice for the past month and a half. Im really trying, and youre right, somehow she succeeds in pulling me back in. I have no illusions that she wants me back, and Im beginning to accept that. I think the dying hope is the most painful thing Ive ever experienced. I feel like a sacrificial lamb which just happened to eat grass in the wrong field. It seems so random with no rhyme or reason.

 

Sometimes I still question if shes a BPD, even though I kinda already know she is in a way. Had so much confirmation, even from her own mouth, and well, I guess Im the kinda guy who always tries to find a way to make things better. I have believed all my life that anything is possible if you put your mind and your heart to it, this is the first time Ive been proven wrong.

 

Honestly guys, I really dont want to see her. Starting at Uni monday and I so wish I wont bump into her. I cant take anymore. Its true what someone said in another post, it feels like youre getting dumped over and over again, and hell, Im not even begging or pleading anymore, I actually havent been doing that for a long time now.

 

But Downtown, understand mate, that I did accomplish something for myself. Even though I might not have improved my relation to my ex in any way, I really do feel I did the right thing for myself and handled our last contact as an adult. A good friend told me something I found to be very interesting. She said that the last action taken in these situations are very important, and I honestly feel thats the truth.

 

@Jeff: Youre right, she cheated on me and I shouldnt pursue her anymore, youre absolutely right mate. Trust me when I say that Im not chasing her anymore, and my last contact wasnt about that at all. It was about me setting a boundary and leaving a good impression, for my own sake. It might not have worked that way at all in the grand scheme of things, but to me it mattered. Now, maybe its my caregiver nature thats messing with me, I can accept that. But right now, anything that makes me feel better is prefered to more pain.

 

In all honesty it will make the next four weeks at Uni a little bit easier, and thats a month of hell I just have to get over with. I have no idea how to handle seeing her again, other than pretend everythings fine and dandy. Im going to try and avoid her I guess, or something. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

[dreamingoftigers]

I'm still following your thread. I know what the death of dreams feels like, but actually in your 30s as a guy your options really open up and your dreams may not be as far away as you feel.

 

A guy that wants the kids/family thing is in far more demand by women then one who doesn't.

 

Reach out to any female friends you have and let them know this, often they are the type that have friends and acquaintances that share similar values. A lot of relationships start this way (I read Why Men Marry Some Women and Not Others).

 

Even if you don't make any connections directly through them, you could make one through a friend of a friend.

 

If you go to a church, that is an excellent fishing ground.

 

If you have any social/shyness issues, abandon them for an evening.

[seibert253]

Be done with her already.

 

She cheated on you and IMO she sounds flakey and immature.

 

You deserve better.

[Rap17]

Been a while but just wanted tp post a small update.

 

Im still struggling and pining away, but I guess things has changed somewhat the past few weeks. Our last correspondence was on the 27th of december, (last time I posted), with her writing the last message. I still havent responded and so, Ive been NC for 3 weeks now. Something did happen last week though. I still havent been to Uni much, (not many classes), so a student friend of mine called me up and asked how I was doing. We got into the whole affair thing and he told me that after our last discussion he had been watching her, to see if my suspicions were correct. He told me that back in november he would often see them in the morning, headed for Uni, when he passed by in the car. And he had noticed that they were flirty ,(while I was not there ofc), and spending lots of time together at Uni as well. As a guy, he could just tell something was going on.

 

This kinda floored me, since it basically confirmed my suspicions, and that she has been repeatedly lying to everyone, even when confronted with the idea. She even acted disgusted when a mutual friend asked her about it, like the other guy was not attractive at all. I dont know if somethings going on anymore, theres no way I can know. But my gut tells me everything.

 

Havent heard a peep from her, but Im told shes still going out a lot and partying, having the time of her life. Im pretty disgusted by the whole thing myself. Slowly, Ive begun to dig up my self respect again. When she got mad at me during our last phonecall, she mentioned the word "loyality". She felt that I had been disloyal to her as a friend and ex boyfriend, by trusting what other people told me about her, (things she told our mutual friend herself), instead of contacting her and asking her about it. So, the other day it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Loyalty? Does she even know what that word means? After all the trust I gave her and after what she did to me, how could she in any way expect any loyalty from me? Double standards at its worst.

 

A student councellor has been asking about me, talked to a friend of mine. When you study to become a social worker, you discover a lot about yourself in the process, which affects relationships often. Before I started at Uni, I was told that upto 75% of relationships go sour after having been through this process, because your identity changes somewhat. He has seen these kinds of breakups alot, and been helping the "victims" out, apparently its not uncommon in his experience either. So I set up a meeting with him tomorrow, going to Uni and having a long talk. Im gonna spill my guts and tell him everything during the session, so he can see how hard it is on me. I hope this will help me make it through the semester, perhaps he can give me a fresh perspective on things.

 

My ex is still single btw, judging from her FB status. I think one of my problems is that on one hand I hate and resent her for what shes done and put me through, on the other hand I cant stop feeling sorry for her because she might have BPD. Thats my codependant nature talking I know, and thats what Downtown has been trying to punch into my skull. I wonder if its my codependant traits that stops me from falling out of love with her, of what I percieve to be love. One thing I do know now though is that Im still feeling very guilty for the things that lead to the breakup. Like its my fault, or that I could have done things differently. I think thats where the heartache stems from.

 

Its been 3 months since the breakup, and now 3 weeks into my third period of NC. Still having urges to contact her, but I have a much easier time not giving in now. I just dread seeing her this week at Uni, cause theres no way I can avoid it. Gonna have classes together every day, and Im still not sure how to react if she approaches me or if I see her. I could use a little help in this department, some suggestions would be most welcome. Most importantly, I dont want her to see me weak. Ive lost weight and looked better, thats for sure, but I dont want to come across as someone you should feel sorry for. Im regaining some of that lost confidence, I want it to show, even though Im still hurt on the inside.

 

Thanks for reading everyone.

[Downtown]

Rap, thanks for the update. I still see no reason for you to feel guilty about the breakup. As I recall, the last six months you had been less attentive to her due to stress in your classes and work. Yet, that is not a reason to feel guilty about. If you were married to her with kids, the stress would sometimes be far greater and both of you would be less attentive. So, if the six months was too much for her to handle, there is no way she could handle a marriage with all that comes down the pike in the later years. I'll be interested in hearing what your advisor has to say about BPD traits when you have a chance to speak with him. Good luck next week when returning to a class with your ex.

[Rap17]

Rap, thanks for the update. I still see no reason for you to feel guilty about the breakup. As I recall, the last six months you had been less attentive to her due to stress in your classes and work. Yet, that is not a reason to feel guilty about. If you were married to her with kids, the stress would sometimes be far greater and both of you would be less attentive. So, if the six months was too much for her to handle, there is no way she could handle a marriage with all that comes down the pike in the later years. I'll be interested in hearing what your advisor has to say about BPD traits when you have a chance to speak with him. Good luck next week when returning to a class with your ex.

 

Thanks man, Ill be sure to post an update tomorrow after the meeting. I know I shouldnt be feeling guilty, my rational side tells me that much, but I just cant shake it off for some reason. Shes excellent at placing guilt, then when you protest, she kinda retracts the whole thing and takes the blame herself. Its like you cant win because the guilty feeling she passed onto you still lingers. Its nuts. I still am quite insecure about how to conduct myself around her. Its like I question everything I do, doubt myself all the time. Its clear that my self esteem has taken a huge hit from all of this and I wasnt like this in the beginning of the relationship. Its hard to explain, but its like I dont remember who I was before I started dating her. Like I lost myself or some part of me, and I cant even recognize myself anymore.

 

Oh, and I think Im feeling guilty about suspecting that she has BPD as well. Worst of all, Im scared that my councellor will think Im nuts or grasping at straws when I tell him of my suspicions, even though Im very articulate and level headed when speaking to other people. (Not in english mind you, its not my native language). Sigh, what to do when I see her or if she approaches me. Im trying to visualize it and prepare for it, but I just dont feel ready. Maybe its because I havent seen her in person for 1½ months now, I dont know. Im a shadow of my former self. I used to be a confident guy, one of the top three of my class, nothing phased me, and I was always myself. Im not like most guys out there, Im a bit of an original, but I always took pride in that fact. Now, I feel like some kind of pathetic outcast, and Im scared to death that it will show. Wth happened to me...

Edited January 16, 2011 by Rap17

[Downtown]

Shes excellent at placing guilt, then when you protest, she kinda retracts the whole thing and takes the blame herself. Its like you cant win because the guilty feeling she passed onto you still lingers.

No, this is not something she did to you. Rather, it is something you did to yourself. She never had power over you to control your feelings. Hence, when she blamed you, you chose to feel guilty. And now you can choose to feel otherwise. You have all the power over your own feelings -- and you therefore also have the responsibility to take control of how you are feeling.

Now, I feel like some kind of pathetic outcast, and Im scared to death that it will show. Wth happened to me...

Well, whatever happened, you cannot simply blame it on an unstable young woman. My suspicion is that you are codependent and therefore have a strong need to be needed -- resulting in your feeling like such a total failure after trying to do the impossible (to make an unhappy, unstable person happy). It should be interesting to see what your advisor thinks.

[Rap17]

No, this is not something she did to you. Rather, it is something you did to yourself. She never had power over you to control your feelings. Hence, when she blamed you, you chose to feel guilty. And now you can choose to feel otherwise. You have all the power over your own feelings -- and you therefore also have the responsibility to take control of how you are feeling.Well, whatever happened, you cannot simply blame it on an unstable young woman. My suspicion is that you are codependent and therefore have a strong need to be needed -- resulting in your feeling like such a total failure after trying to do the impossible (to make an unhappy, unstable person happy). It should be interesting to see what your advisor thinks.

 

Hmm good point mate. I guess I can only blame myself for being in such an emotional, vulnerable state. I do see what you mean, although it somehow still seems difficult to shrug it off and accept it for what it is. Perhaps its because I resent her and want to put blame on her, kinda like a defense.

 

About the codepent thing, yeah I believe I am but I dont know if its always been like this, or maybe its been dormant. Before I got into this relationship I was fiercly independent, reserved in some ways. Kinda like a loner, a position I chose to be in since I actually liked being to myself much of the time. Perhaps I always had my guard up and I trusted her to such a degree that I let my guard down and kinda gave in to her. She made me feel safe, and I just let go, allowed myself to love her without restrictions. If thats the case, maybe thats why I feel so hurt. Because I finally found someone I felt I could rely on without the worry of being hurt, someone I could open up to completely. Well, didnt turn out too well.

 

And yes, perhaps the failure of "fixing" her is a big issue as well. But see, she made me feel like I truly was the best thing that ever happened to her, that she felt safe and relied on me like no other, not even her family. If she has BPD I guess that would be her mirroring me. And like Ive mentioned before, she never really made me aware of how deep her issues were, she never really opened up and let it all out. Well, she kinda did after the breakup, but then I wasnt in a position anymore where I could "leave" her. I strongly suspect that she left me because she felt like I was abandoning her, (her reality, not mine), and was going to leave her first. So that way she dodged the hurt and caved in to her fear of abandonment. Remember, two weeks after the breakup she practically admitted she still loved me and was sending me mixed signals.

 

Does this make sense to you Downtown? Cause I think it fits the profile quite well, and also from what shes been telling me post breakup about her past etc.

 

EDIT: Ah wait, I think we already discussed how it seems I triggered her fears of abandonment unintentionally. Sorry, been a long thread and can be hard to remember older posts

Edited January 17, 2011 by Rap17

[Downtown]

Hmm good point mate. I guess I can only blame myself for being in such an emotional, vulnerable state.

Rap, the advantage of taking the blame -- i.e., recognizing your responsibility for your own feelings -- is that this is so empowering. It means you always had the power to stop the pain -- and can do so now. You are in charge of your own feelings. I recognize, however, that taking charge of one's feelings and healing can take time and can be difficult to do if you have issues you need to work on. I've been working on my codependency for four years now. Even so, it is important to realize intellectually that you have that power.

About the codepent thing, yeah I believe I am but I dont know if its always been like this, or maybe its been dormant. Before I got into this relationship I was fiercly independent, reserved in some ways.

Rap, most codependents I've met are -- in nearly every other respect -- fiercely independent. As I said earlier, they will handle a full time job and go home to care for three kids and five dogs -- and still find time to go out looking on weekends for a spouse they can take care of too.

she made me feel like I truly was the best thing that ever happened to her, that she felt safe and relied on me like no other, not even her family.

My BPD exW said the same things about me. I was her savior and she had never met any man like me. She adored me. After the honeymoon ends, however, a BPDer cannot maintain that illusion (which she herself believed in).

[Rap17]

Update.

 

My advisor called in sick the entire week so I havent been able to speak to him yet. I think it will be a possibility next week and ofc Ill update this thread with what I learn. Still, things have happened these past few days.

 

Believe it or not, but I think I got some power back this week.

 

 

Ive been skipping classes at Uni for these past months, been depressed and so on. She asked me when we spoke on the phone back in the beginning of december, if it was because it was hard to see her in person. My answer was that it wasnt what was keeping me away, but that yeah, it was tough seeing her. Later, when we had the argument just before christmas, she accused me of being scared of conflicts, that I was avoiding her because I was scared.

 

Truth be told, she actually got to me with those words. I was highly emotional and angry, and it made my self esteem drop even more. The thought of myself being scared of interacting with my ex, mind you shes a 22 year old girl and Im a 34 old male, just brought a lot of shame to me. I felt weak, low and pathetic. Gave her all the power. When I think of it now, I believe she reacted like she did because she felt guilty for me being absent, that it was her doing that I couldnt be there.

 

But I have realised something, and I guess that was also what I wrote in this thread when I started to avoid her at Uni and in general. It was my discovery of NC that lead me to this behaviour, and honestly I dont feel as ashamed anymore about the whole ordeal. Its was not a good idea education wise to stay away, but it was truly what I needed. To stay away from her, not because I was afraid of talking to her, but because I needed to look out for myself. To avoid the pain of rejection that would occur every day I would see her at Uni. Sure, it was based in fear but not for her. The fear of not being able to heal by continuously ripping up the wound, just by her mere presence. I was afraid of myself, my own reactions, my own emotions being out of control. I couldnt handle my emotions at all, and its still hard I admit that, but if I hadnt done this I imagine I would be at day 1 of the healing process still. Now, I dont recommend for anyone to skip classes if youre in a similar situation. Im one of the top of my class, and I have the ability to pick up the pieces and make things work again. Thats exactly what I did this week, yesterday to be more exact.

 

Having read a lot of threads on this forum and others, I made a plan for how to handle all of this. Now, this is not game playing as I view it, but a step in the right direction for myself. A class was scheduled yesterday, and I knew she would be there. Just the thought of it filled me with anxiety, but then I read a thread on how to conduct yourself in the presence of your ex, if you still love her, and if you have codependant traits like I do. It was about having a nonchalant attitude in her presence, not initiating conversations with her or make contact, and generally just act like I was doing fine, smiling and having a bit of fun. This really struck a chord with me, and I decided that it was time to try and take the power back. I have been doing NC for close to four weeks, which is somewhat empowering in itself, especially since I told her in a nice way that she would have to take some initiative, cause I couldnt do it anymore and not getting anything in return. Were talking friendship terms here. I didnt present it as an ultimatum, was very careful with that, but I have since then enforced this boundary and not been contating her at all. Shes been NC as well, so I guess shes either over me completely, seeing another guy in secret, stubborn, or feeling guilty. I will leave up to you to decide what her behaviour these past two days indicate.

 

So, I went to Uni yesterday, putting up a nonchalant attitude. I was terrified it would show that it would show, and I guess I couldnt know, but nevertheless I knew I needed to go to that class. For the sake of my education and for my own self respect. It was time to make the world know that I was back. I went out with some friends tuesday and posted a short,positive update on facebook, (havent updated since 2. of december since I tried to dissapear from her life). Heres what happened.

 

I went into the class room and there she was, sitting behind her laptop. Thats the first time Ive seen her since the beginning of december, (besides me checking her profile on FB, still a bane to my existence that damn site). She saw me first when I entered and before I could make eye contact she was looking at her laptop again. The teacher called in sick a bit too late so I was only there for 20 mins or so. Through this time I sat with some fellow male students, browsing the internet, smiling and having light conversations. I know I looked a bit like a wreck since Ive lost weight and not been sleeping too well, but I didnt let that thought get to me. I simply refused to let my demeanor reflect I was heartbroken and simply sat there enjoying myself. I tried to make quick eye contact to her a couple of times, I didnt want to appear like I was ignoring her or avoiding her, and if she returned it I would just smile a bit and try to act nonchalant. Just keeping it friendly and a bit upbeat. Her reaction?

 

She never looked at me from what I could tell, not even once. She would either try and hide behind her laptop, (she was sitting across from me), or turn away to talk to whomever was sitting beside her. It was so obvious that she was trying to avoid looking at me. She was very silent and just sat there, not really talking to anyone. When I got up and left, I went to the exit what was just besides her table, and when I passed her I tried to casually make eye contact again. Just when I was about to pass her she got up and went in the opposite direction, again seemingly to avoid eye contact. Then I left out the door and I felt really proud of myself. It totally felt like I got just a little bit of my old power back.

 

Went to class today as well. Was there for two hours. Same deal, no eye contact from her, no attention at all. She didnt say much, turned to people beside her to small talk once in a while. I on the other hand had conversations with the teacher like I always used to, talking on class about the subject matter, talking to a few class mates, acting nonchalant like I was alright. Tried to make eye contact a few times as well, but she didnt return it. She was looking great btw, she has lost a bit of weight. She looked even more beautiful than when I was with her, and it was killing me on the inside, but I just knew I had to do this. I didnt look at her often, I just kinda mirrored her behaviour towards me, like she was just another classmate. Then when class was over I left, and instead of going home, (escape), I went for a cup of coffee in the cantina and sat down to read todays newspaper, wanted to hang around for a little while just to be there again.

 

Then I got up to leave and I passed the stairway leading to the first floor, and there she was, in plain sight, coming down towards me. For a second I thought I was going to panic, but I kept my head cool and looked her in the eyes. Surprisingly, she returned the favor. She sent me a little smile, I smiled back. I didnt run, I stood there and she was headed towards me. I figured it was worth it to see if she would say hi, then I would retun the greeting and then leave afterwards. Then someone called her name and mentioned her to come along. She shifted her attention to the other person and went in that direction. On the inside I was dissapointed, cause I really wanted to say hi to her, just to show her I was in control of the situation. But again, I acted nonchalant, picked up my phone to send a text, then I turned around and left.

 

On my way home I felt like crap. It wasnt easy to see her again, and the heartbreak came swelling up again. I guess thats why NC is such a great tool to move on, you dont get confronted with the pain in the plain sight of day. But still, I knew I did what was right for myself. This was the last class were going to have together in the next two months. Our class is having a party on the 28th of january, and back in december I told a couple of my classmates I wasnt coming due to obvious reason, (her being there). A fellow student mentioned the party and told me that I should come anyway, that she shouldnt have the power to keep me away. But truly, Im keeping myself away, not her, its all about me and how I feel about myself. So, Im tempted to go and let our class know on FB that I might be coming along anyway, if my other plans didnt work out that day, (dont have anything planned, but hey, she doesnt know that).

 

Im tempted to go, I really am. This feeling of taking back control is truly empowering. I guess its about facing my fears and getting myself back to where I was before the relationship. Painful babysteps.

 

I dont know if I will be able to handle a full evening/night in her presence however. I refuse to falter now. I really want to work on this nonchalant demeanor and get myself back. Also, this will probably be my last chance in two months for any LC before going NC again. Right now Im in NIC and Im sticking to it, and if I go to the party I wont utter a word to her unless she initiates contact first, only smile and say hello, then just have fun.

 

Would like to hear what you think, if I should go or if its better to stay away. I think that if I stay away it will show more weakness than me going. Also, it would be nice to hear what your views are on how I conducted myself these past few days, and also what you make of her behaviour in class. Im not worrying about how she behaved, but Im really curious about it. Some perspective would be great guys.

 

Its obvious that I still love her of course, but Im not trying to win her back anymore, cause its a lost cause. Im trying to get myself back now, then in six months when I return to a normal schedule at Uni I will be all the more attractive and confident again, at least thats my wish. Do I want her back? Of course I do, and Im probably gonna get flack for that fact. But I will never have a chance if I dont get myself back first anyway, not with other women either.

 

Its now a few days shy of 3 months since the breakup. Almost one month of NC, then LC the last few days with no words spoken to eachother.

 

 

I welcome any inpunt. Thanks for reading everyone.

[Downtown]

Rap, it sounds like you handled things well in the classroom. Congratulations!

[Rap17]

Rap, it sounds like you handled things well in the classroom. Congratulations!

 

Thanks Downtown, I really feel like I did too.

 

If its not too much to ask, what do you think about the other points of my post. The party, her behaviour towards me and so on? I think it would help with a perspective on these things, since I figure it can help me in the coming weeks. Im going to put on the nonchalant attitude, but understanding, or at least having an idea of her behaviour towards me, would greatly enhance my ability to conduct myself that way in her presence. Im not grasping at straws or snything like that, Im simply trying to get a better understanding of the whole thing. Thanks for all your advice Downtown, youre a pillar

[Downtown]

Rap, I'm afraid I just keep saying the same thing over and over again: I believe it is important that you not add to a BPDer's pain by being cruel. So, ideally, you will go completely NC. And, short of that, will act nonchalant and disinterested -- but civil -- while around her.

 

Beyond that, however, it makes no difference what impression you make on her because she likely is too unstable to retain an impression for very long anyway. And, as you are painfully aware, she can go from adoring you to hating you in ten seconds, based solely on some minor thing you say or do.

 

Moreover, she can turn on you at any time so there is no chance of building up a store of good will. Hence, all of your preoccupation with "what she is thinking" means only that you are still giving her power over you by paying so close attention to "what she thinks."

 

That said, I believe you are doing well at this point. I just attended my grandson's marriage and sat beside my BPD exW, whom I had not seen or spoken to in nearly 3 years. Like you, I still love her even though I know she cannot be trusted for anything and is incapable of mature love. I therefore was cordial and polite but said nothing to encourage future contact and did only small talk. I pulled that off so well because, unlike you, I've had four years to rid myself of nearly all my fantasies and illusions about her.

 

So, like I said, you are on the right track. Please take great care, however, to not allow her back into your life. And work toward the day that you really have little or no concern about what she thinks of you. At that point, you will have retrieved the last vestige of the power you have given her.

 

As to the party on the 28th, I encourage you to trust your own judgment at this point. You already know how well prepared you are to resist being pulled back into that toxic relationship. And you already know if the party offers sufficient rewards to offset that risk. And you know that, if you are largely hoping that the party will be a vehicle for reuniting with her, you should stay as far away from it as possible.

[Rap17]

A lot of stuff happened yesterday so heres an update.

 

 

My advisor called me up and asked if I had the time to go see him, so I went to Uni half an hour later. I knew she would be there and that Id possibly bump into her, I know she was helping prepare for a party that same evening.

 

When I arrived I saw her with a group of people, but she didnt see me. So I just went to the advisors office and we had a chat. He only had 45 mins to talk so I didnt get the chance to dive into everything in great detail, especially the BPD stuff, so that might have affected his view on things.

 

I told him about the situation with the other guy, and how I had discovered that they had been talking behind my back, how I hadnt been attending all my classes out of fear of seeing them together and how I had been feeling stressed out and under immense mental pressure this year. Basically I told him everything that happened chronologically these past 8-9 months, but unfortunatly I was cut short because of time. He was worried about me since he could tell I had been hurt a lot and we talked about having another session at a later time. He understood my situation and how hard it was, but when we talked about her issues things didnt turn out as I had thought.

 

Basically, his oppinion was that she was trying to find herself, basically having the GIGS, and that he didnt believe she was borderline at all. I told him of her past issues but he was still reserved, but he was considering asking her about how she was doing. To check up on her as well. Ironically, he also told me that he didnt want me to get my hopes up, but that if it was a case of her maturing, finding herself etc. that it would at least give me more hope for her and I in the future. This surprised me. It felt good talking to him, but since I didnt get to mention much regarding my percieved symptoms of her having BPD, I didnt manage to make him consider that it was a possibility. I mentioned her feeling a lot of guilt about what she had done, and he told me that then there was practically no chance that she had BPD, since people with those issues dont really show guilt or remorse. I have no idea if thats true.

 

So, basically what it came down to was that I left with a feeling of having been trying to rationalise the breakup, and that I was the one who´s messed up sigh.

 

Then it happened. I went down the staircase and right in front of me, there they were. My ex and the other guy. They quickly passed, and when she noticed me she made eye contact for a second, (probably surprised I was there), then proceeded to follow the guy some place. She didnt smile, say hi or anything. They were talking and smiling and I just couldnt help but sense something was up. When they saw me its like their conversation went "fake" or something. He quickly pointed out that she should go to the auditorium because there was "some things he wanted to show her there", and then they quickly split up. Well people, theres nothing in the auditorium but seats and an overhead.

 

I felt bad. It felt horrible that she basically ignored me, and I never got the chance to just say hi. She was gone in seconds. I kept my cool though and quickly left Uni. On my way home I called a friend and told him what happened, and he invited me over for a beer. Then I made a decision. Instead of just accepting that she ignored me, I was going to do be the adult. So, I broke LC and texted her. I know thats not a nonchalant action, but I was going to make sure that my words were at least. Was going to keep it light and upbeat.

 

 

ME: "Hey there, you were in such a rush that I didnt even have the time to say hi to you. So, hi :)"

 

HER: "Hehe no. We are preparing for the party and couldnt find our laundry bucket, which we needed for cleaning. So yeah a bit busy :)"

 

ME: "Yeah could tell, You were running around like a bewildered hamster haha I hope you have a good party tonight then :)"

 

HER: "Haha yeah, but thats how it is when I need to manage all the stuff. But yeah, well see -Im not gonna be able to attend the party much, since I have to get up early for work tomorrow :("

 

ME: "Ah thats a shame. Well, then I youll have a nice quiet day at work without too many accidents ;)" (refering to her being a bit clumsy and breaking stuff once in a while).

 

HER: "Yeah didnt get my work schedule before monday, I was so mad about it. Its typical... But luckily I have next weekend off, so we can go all out and have fun at the class party instead :D"

 

ME: "Yeah that sucks Not entirely certain Ill be at the party, but sounds like its gonna be fun :)"

 

HER: "No... Okay, why are you not going to be there?"

 

ME: "I have other plans that day and Im not sure how late its gonna be. Will stop by the party if it doesnt get too late :)"

 

HER: "Okay Great :)"

 

 

Thats the entire convo. I didnt reply to the last text, and the convo lasted the whole day, with hours in between my later replies. Was trying to appear happy and funny, joking etc. I know LS´ers preach not to contact your ex, but hey, at least I got to break the ice in a way that she was willing to respond to. So, now I plan to attend the party saturday, but Ill show up late. Just gonna try and keep my demeanor happy and cheerful, and have a good time. Im also not gonna let her know what my "plans" are that day, just like I didnt in the text message.

 

I sense that her and the other guy has something going on. I could tell by how she talked and behaved around him, that there could be something there. Hurts like hell, but I have to keep my cool. Will see if she approaches me saturday at the party, but I will let her initiate any conversation, will see if she does at all. The party will be the last time I see her in four weeks I think, if I dont accidentally bump into her. I dont know if Ill be going strict NC after the party yet, but thats probably for the best. Will see how the party goes.

 

 

Thanks for reading peeps.

[Downtown]

he told me that then there was practically no chance that she had BPD, since people with those issues dont really show guilt or remorse. I have no idea if thats true.

My understanding is that, because a BPDer's shame response is so painfully intense, she protects herself by not allowing mistakes and flaws to rise to her conscious level. This does not mean, however, that she will not pretend to be suffering from guilt when she thinks it is in her interests to do so.

 

If I recall correctly, you have described her general behavior as refusing to accept responsibility for her own actions -- choosing, instead, to blame things on you. If so, her claim of suffering pangs of guilt -- over her betrayal of you -- stands as a rare exception and was likely just an excuse for dumping you. But perhaps I am recalling it incorrectly.

[Rap17]

My understanding is that, because a BPDer's shame response is so painfully intense, she protects herself by not allowing mistakes and flaws to rise to her conscious level. This does not mean, however, that she will not pretend to be suffering from guilt when she thinks it is in her interests to do so.

 

If I recall correctly, you have described her general behavior as refusing to accept responsibility for her own actions -- choosing, instead, to blame things on you. If so, her claim of suffering pangs of guilt -- over her betrayal of you -- stands as a rare exception and was likely just an excuse for dumping you. But perhaps I am recalling it incorrectly.

 

 

Thanks Downtown. Well, she has taken full responsibility for the breakup when we were in contact via PM´s on facebook at christmas time. Thats where she told me she wanted to be friends still, but Id have to accept thats all we ever could be, because she couldnt look at me the same way anymore because of what happened. When I told her that I just wished we both took responsibility for the breakup and then leave it be, she turned around and took the full responsibility because of her cheating. "I can never forgive myself, it will never be the same, Im not good enough for you" etc etc, but that she would like to get a cup of coffee with me sometime.

 

Thats also where I told her that I would like to be friends, but that she would have to show some initiative towards me, to show me a bit of trust, before I could return the gesture, since I had been taking all the initiative post breakup, besides a chat message from her on FB. That it had to be mutual and not one sided. And her response was that I was talking gibberish and that basically she didnt want to talk on FB anymore like this, that she felt things would never be quite the same, and that we would have to see what would happen in the new year, that maybe we could meet up at some point if it suited both of us. Basically a "we will see what happens" escape thing.

 

So, during the breakup she took all the blame as well, but she didnt make much sense to me. So, when I asked her questions about her decision, digging a bit deeper, she mentioned vaguely that she had too high expectations of me. When I asked what they were, she wouldnt exactly say, but I sensed that there were definantly other reasons for the breakup, and she since mentioned that she didnt feel validated, appreciated and so on. Its been back and forth like that the entire time post breakup. Shes been playing small guilt cards once in a while when weve talked. Jealousi, me not being enough of a man, me showing I cared too much, me not telling her how wonderful she is, and it goes on and on.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, I have been very stressed out and I know I havent been there for her like I was in the beginning of our relationship. But I always told her how much I loved her and appreciated her and all that. It was like she didnt remember it, or simply refused to acknowledge it. All this time she has said she still cares about me, but well, she doesnt exactly show it. Whats a man to do?

Edited January 22, 2011 by Rap17

[Downtown]

I sensed that there were definantly other reasons for the breakup, and she since mentioned that she didnt feel validated, appreciated and so on. Its been back and forth like that the entire time post breakup. Shes been playing small guilt cards once in a while when weve talked. Jealousi, me not being enough of a man, me showing I cared too much, me not telling her how wonderful she is, and it goes on and on.

With the BPDers I've known, it is not uncommon for them to sometimes apologize for something. Even when that happens -- and it doesn't happen often -- they take it all back with the other hand, claiming soon thereafter that you had pushed them to that point and thus were really to blame. My exW, for example, was fully capable of occassionally admitting that she had blown a huge sum on a worthless product -- only to soon claim that she had bought it only because she knew I would not approve of her buying a better quality, more expensive version. Hence, IME, BPDers sometimes apologize but, like your advisor says, do not really show true remorse. Or, in the rare cases where they do, their instability washes that feeling aside within a few days.

[GoingInsane]

Hi Rap17. I've just read your whole thread and the similarities between your relationship and breakup and mine are uncanny. The only difference is that I jumped into a close friendship with my ex and was circling round and round in my head what it all meant. Its only since I've gone NC that I've started to move on.

 

First of all, I'm almost 100% sure that your ex was seeing the guy you've mentioned while you were still together and she's defintely with him now. You know she is. My ex did exactly the same. She knew I didn't like her spending time with the other guy but did it anyway. She would act shocked that I could ever think there was something going on. She swore to a mutual friend (who then naively pursuaded me) that there was nothing going on. All the time there was. Whether it was an emotional affair or a full on physical one, she betrayed me and lied to me every day. For months after our BU, I went over and over the different scenarios. Any new info I found out (from a FB profile pic change to hearing of her spending time with the other guy) would trigger the obsessional going over old ground again in my head. Trying to find a different conclusion. It doesn't help. What difference does it make whether she cheated for 6 months or 6 days? She still cheated. Draw a line under trying to work it out Rap - it.doesn't.matter.

 

Like you, I felt guilty for the breakup and I felt guilty for her cheating!! That is down to shattered self respect and low self esteem - and still wanting to justify her actions - better to blame myself than face the thought that she didn't love me as much as she said she did. Fact is, if you love someone, you don't cheat. You don't lie to them. You don't let them feel guilty for mistrusting them. My ex said she "didn't want to break my heart". I felt bad that she was going through that angst when she wanted to break up. But guess what? If she didn't want to break my heart she would have never cheated. Never lied to my face. You ex is doing the same.

 

Like your ex, mine also said she needed space, had issues she needed to work on, didn't want to be with anyone. She also put a lot of the blame on me for the relationship failing. Sure I could be insensitive sometimes, thoughtless on occasion - but she was happy to point out my faults all the while knowing she'd betrayed, cheated and lied to me. She did that to make herself feel better (for cheating). She consciously chose to see me in pain rather than be honest with herself about what she'd done. Your ex did the same and it worked. That's not the actions of someone "worried about you" or "thinking about you" - its the actions of a coward. When your ex says she can't forgive herself for what she did (mine said that too), its just a "nice" way of leaving you. She's too much of a coward to say that her feelings have changed. By confessing to a kiss, she gets some of the guilt off her back, but is still protecting her own ego - and she can still blame you for much that went wrong - it was "only" a kiss after all.

 

My ex remained close friends with me. She would come over to my house once a week, would text regularly. To make herself feel better. To feed her ego that I still would jump if she asked me to. But when she wasn't getting something from me - an ease of her occasional guilt, a friend to get emotional support from, an ego boost when she needed it - when she didn't need those things, she didn't give me a seconds thought. Your ex is the same. Since I went NC, she hasn't tried to contact me. Yours is the same. They don't care.

 

When me and the ex were "friends", I would sent chirpy texts like the one you've just posted. For our exes it great - aww, we still care about them, we don't think badly of them, we can't know about the affair/relationship. For us, it always leads to new obsessional thoughts of the past. Stop doing it. You basically took away any guilt she might have been feeling about being with the guy you didn't like with that message. You told her it was okay, you're not mad with her, you still like her. You're mad as hell really, stop trying to make her feel better when it just makes you feel worse. She didn't and won't d the same for you.

 

Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but I really see a lot of myself in you. Take her off FB again, remove her and block her. Don't worry about why she thinks you did it, she'll have a fleeting concern (not for you, but that you might think badly of her for some reason, her ego will be dented), then she'll block that worry out and not give it a seconds thought. Delete her number. Stop contacting her. Believe me, I have terrible low self esteem, a really awful self image, but since going NC, I'm looking at improving myself for ME and future relationships. You can do the same. Please do it. You sound panicky and anxious, I felt exactly the same. This weekend, 3 weeks NC, 4.5 months since we split, I have caught myself NOT thinking about her. Its nice.

Edited January 23, 2011 by GoingInsane