dreamingoftigers Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 You think so? Well, Im trying to focus on work and its really been good for me. Then we go to Uni and I have to be in the same room as her, and even though I keep my cool it still ends up affecting me in some way. Its almost like shes testing me to see if she still has me. NC has been so good for me, and then I have to sit in class for three days sigh. Any insight into hot and cold behaviour? I must admit I havent got a clue about it and how to respond to it. And well, since I still have lingering feelings for my ex I have problems even thinking about dating other women. My confidence has definantly been on the rise, but I dont truly feel ready for something like that yet. And Im the kind of guy who doesnt date other women when my heart still belongs to someone else, it wouldnt be fair. And thank you so much for the reply. Theyre unfortunatly hard to come by these days :/ Simply put: Don't respond to it. At all. Have you read the Co-dependent's Guide to the 12 Steps? Very very important. In almost every post you are still reflecting on how she must be feeling or thinking. My threads are rife with that too (my h). It's almost like we have to suffer the pain and isolation to prove that we loved someone (or continue to love someone) that much. It actually isn't true. We view "just moving on" as cold and almost betraying that part of ourselves that loved so deeply. Your heart does not belong to her, it belongs to you and she doesn't want to share it with you. That doesn't mean that you haven't loved her enough or suffered for her enough. It means that you suffered for her too much and it isn't serving either one of you. Take all of that hope and energy and invest it in loving you. Not out of pure selfishness but because one day you will want to share your heart with someone else and that someone else deserves a whole person. Becoming a whole person who protects themselves is the most loving thing that you can do for another. It means that you hold them to a higher standard of self-respect then to let them harm you. It means that you don't need them in ways that are draining to them, they are free to be their own person. Your ex wants her freedom more then she wants to be loved or needed by you. That isn't your fault or anything to do with the quality of your love. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Rap17 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Simply put: Don't respond to it. At all. Have you read the Co-dependent's Guide to the 12 Steps? Very very important. In almost every post you are still reflecting on how she must be feeling or thinking. My threads are rife with that too (my h). It's almost like we have to suffer the pain and isolation to prove that we loved someone (or continue to love someone) that much. It actually isn't true. We view "just moving on" as cold and almost betraying that part of ourselves that loved so deeply. Your heart does not belong to her, it belongs to you and she doesn't want to share it with you. That doesn't mean that you haven't loved her enough or suffered for her enough. It means that you suffered for her too much and it isn't serving either one of you. Take all of that hope and energy and invest it in loving you. Not out of pure selfishness but because one day you will want to share your heart with someone else and that someone else deserves a whole person. Becoming a whole person who protects themselves is the most loving thing that you can do for another. It means that you hold them to a higher standard of self-respect then to let them harm you. It means that you don't need them in ways that are draining to them, they are free to be their own person. Your ex wants her freedom more then she wants to be loved or needed by you. That isn't your fault or anything to do with the quality of your love. Wow thanks, I guess thats what I needed to hear. I havent read the steps, but I have read a lot about codependancy these past months. I realise that I do have these traits and frankly, its not too hard to deal with it when Im in NC anymore. But her presence ignites that slight numb pain in my chest, not when shes there, but rather when I get home and think about the day that has passed. Thankfully, Im not responding to her behaviour visibly, at least Im quite sure that people cant tell how Im feeling about the situation. I do feel a lot stronger, but it seems theres much truth in the "afraid to let go and move on" issue, because it does seem cold hearted. Kinda like Im afraid to let go of the pain, or the loving feelings, or whatever. Initiating NC was indeed to protect myself, its really hard that I dont have much choice in the matter of seeing her when were talking about attending Uni. It feels like jumping into a bonfire on purpose, knowing fully how painful it can be. Link to post Share on other sites
dreamingoftigers Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 And of course, people can point out to you that she's "cold-hearted" but them you can say "well she has x.y.z. and a screwed up childhood." And them saying that about her only hurts you. As if in some way you are responsible for her choices and to defend her. It's weird as a co-dependent, you have trouble getting truly angry except when they ignore you. You would rather they start beating on you then ignore you, because then you lose that sense of feedback that you have tied your identity to. But when they aren't around, you are right. You don't feel the "tug" and you can go on about your day etc. like nothing is wrong. But the second you feel them peeking into your life in any way, the suffering and loving and needing starts all over again. So weird. I think a lot of co-dependents when they get older simply quit having relationships, which isn't healthy either if that's why they stop. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Rap17 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 And of course, people can point out to you that she's "cold-hearted" but them you can say "well she has x.y.z. and a screwed up childhood." And them saying that about her only hurts you. As if in some way you are responsible for her choices and to defend her. It's weird as a co-dependent, you have trouble getting truly angry except when they ignore you. You would rather they start beating on you then ignore you, because then you lose that sense of feedback that you have tied your identity to. But when they aren't around, you are right. You don't feel the "tug" and you can go on about your day etc. like nothing is wrong. But the second you feel them peeking into your life in any way, the suffering and loving and needing starts all over again. So weird. I think a lot of co-dependents when they get older simply quit having relationships, which isn't healthy either if that's why they stop. Yeah very true, I can definantly see how this fits. Although the funny thing is, these codependent traits I have, they didnt begin to surface until I got stressed and that was in the latter part of the relationship. Before that and before I even met my ex, I was fiercly independant, also around other women. Somehow, I turned into this, or perhaps her leaving me triggered something. But something just came to my attention. I dont know if you remember how Downtown and myself talked about Borderline, and that my ex has some of the BPD traits. So, this afternoon Ive been scouring the web to read up on codependency again. Having gained some distance and being more in control of my emotions, I sometimes look up old articles I read because I see them in a new light. Then it hit me like a sledgehammer, it all makes so much sense. My ex has some BPD traits yes, like fear of abandonment amongst others, but then it truly hit me today. Something about BPD just didnt sit right with me, as you probably can tell from how I defended her a few times when posting replies to Downtown. And since my work includes aiding people fully blown borderline, Ive come to suspect that my ex isnt one. Reading about codependency I tried to make sense of what I was going through, and its true I do have some of the issues that plague codependents, and I dont doubt I fit into the category. Then reading all the signs and behaviours again, it all became so clear to me. My ex is codependent. Her profile pretty much fits most, if not all the criteria so perfectly. I do realise that some BPD and codependent traits overlap, but the caregiving nature, the guilt etc, it never really seemed to truly be BPD. All the stuff she said, no self confidence, Im too good for her, she needed to find independence etc. My independence hurt her, she felt neglected, not appreciated, wanted sex to be validated and sooo much more. It wasnt my stress causing my part of the breakup, it was my distancing. My independent nature. When she couldnt take it anymore, the roles got reversed. She seeked validation elsewhere, while I took her love for granted, and then it came down as a shock to me. She always adored me right? Was clingy to me most of the relationship. Im not showing guilt or remorse here, its just the way things turned out. Sigh, Dreamingoftigers, you just made me feel so much better. You just gave me the missing part of the puzzle. I cant believe Ive been so blind all this time. Does beg the question though, how on earth do you go about handling contact with a codependant who dumped you? Just a month ago, I didnt even believe that codependents dumping anoter was possible. So I maintain my nonchalance just the same? Or should I rethink my interactions? Thank you! You have no idea how much better you just made me feel. Link to post Share on other sites
dreamingoftigers Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Yeah very true, I can definantly see how this fits. Although the funny thing is, these codependent traits I have, they didnt begin to surface until I got stressed and that was in the latter part of the relationship. Before that and before I even met my ex, I was fiercly independant, also around other women. Somehow, I turned into this, or perhaps her leaving me triggered something. But something just came to my attention. I dont know if you remember how Downtown and myself talked about Borderline, and that my ex has some of the BPD traits. So, this afternoon Ive been scouring the web to read up on codependency again. Having gained some distance and being more in control of my emotions, I sometimes look up old articles I read because I see them in a new light. Then it hit me like a sledgehammer, it all makes so much sense. My ex has some BPD traits yes, like fear of abandonment amongst others, but then it truly hit me today. Something about BPD just didnt sit right with me, as you probably can tell from how I defended her a few times when posting replies to Downtown. And since my work includes aiding people fully blown borderline, Ive come to suspect that my ex isnt one. Reading about codependency I tried to make sense of what I was going through, and its true I do have some of the issues that plague codependents, and I dont doubt I fit into the category. Then reading all the signs and behaviours again, it all became so clear to me. My ex is codependent. Her profile pretty much fits most, if not all the criteria so perfectly. I do realise that some BPD and codependent traits overlap, but the caregiving nature, the guilt etc, it never really seemed to truly be BPD. All the stuff she said, no self confidence, Im too good for her, she needed to find independence etc. My independence hurt her, she felt neglected, not appreciated, wanted sex to be validated and sooo much more. It wasnt my stress causing my part of the breakup, it was my distancing. My independent nature. When she couldnt take it anymore, the roles got reversed. She seeked validation elsewhere, while I took her love for granted, and then it came down as a shock to me. She always adored me right? Was clingy to me most of the relationship. Im not showing guilt or remorse here, its just the way things turned out. Sigh, Dreamingoftigers, you just made me feel so much better. You just gave me the missing part of the puzzle. I cant believe Ive been so blind all this time. Does beg the question though, how on earth do you go about handling contact with a codependant who dumped you? Just a month ago, I didnt even believe that codependents dumping anoter was possible. So I maintain my nonchalance just the same? Or should I rethink my interactions? Thank you! You have no idea how much better you just made me feel. Well, you know what, co-dependents will cling together until they drown. It's true. Often you see addicts and co-dependents together. Truth be told, both are incredibly often co-dependents. You just can fill another person and yourself at the same time, doesn't work. I see my H who comes across in many of my posts and threads as very very co-dependent to me. Even emotionally. What happens is this: the two of you often start off very quickly into a very intense relationship because you both invest a lot up front. This is sort of a "co-dependent high-interest loan." You get joy from making the other person feel good or feel good about themselves, this is where you get your own validation from. Of course since you can't pour self-worth into another person (especially if you are a little low on it yourself) they don't get a full return on the investment, eventually one of you gets work down from pouring so much time effort and energy into the other and you start to appear maybe less interested, or you don't feel as good. Or it could even be that one of you has some extra "stuff" to deal with and is stressing out, like an exam or something. Maybe you need time to study and you are all flustered. While co-dependent A sees co-B stressing, they don't have the power to "make it all better" and so they feel kind of a sting there, plus Co-A "needs some space to study." Co-B, who has abandonment issues gets triggered. (Most codependents do on some level, especially the severe ones, holy cow. In my H's case I have been taking down his history for the clinic, he was abandoned by 4 mothers and 4 fathers. Not all part of separate couples. There may even have been a 5th father!) Co-B may let things quell for a bit but if there is a short series of things, they get super-triggered and cling. They will cling in ways that sabotage both Co-A and Co-B. Depending on the severity of the codependency, it could just be little things like limiting freedoms, or it could be big things like threatening to kill yourself if your partner leaves. When Co-B clings, Co-A gets completely overwhelmed, now they have stresses, needy person and now extra needs from needy person. Co-A being overwhelmed and with poor coping skills will conflict-avoid, run, cheat, get addicted to escape and deal, whatever. Whatever brings Co-A back into center or makes Co-B secure again. It's a vicious cycle, Co-A and Co-B are actually interchangeable. I even think that plenty of the BS/WS/OW-M threads you see on here are often heavily heavily codependent. WS escaping from the BS emotional needs to OW-M that tries to take care of WS while WS feels special and needed by OW-M because WS can't save BS from their own conflicts. etc. My husband is notorious for getting upset when I am in a bad mood, his moods are completely linked to any of my reactions and he can't handle it. If I have car trouble and I am irritated at not being able to start the car, he will personalize it and get upset with me because I threw off his equilibrium. Then he takes responsibility for it all. He will try to fix my moods and let me know all of the ways that I can fix myself and change, but he can't see his own reflection. Truly, I think he is exasperated having to try to take care of me but the best thing he could do is to fix his own issues. Codependents are notorious for trying to help and fix "the other." I am the same, I could quote you everything under the Sun about Sexual Addiction long before I even started at looking at my own sugar addictive problem. My husband is living in the back of a car because I kicked him out over his unresolved sexual addiction (I had also been acting codependent to it up to that point) and then he tells me that I "need to get my **** together" and that he's worried about me. "Dude, it's minus 30 C and you are sleeping outside! You didn't even have a car for the first week!" But that is the nature of codependency. I bet you looked up 10000 articles on BPD etc for you ex before you looked up one in your role in the matter (except maybe the 'how to get your ex back' things). Trying to figure out what is wrong with your ex and support her after she dumps you and you worry about her thoughts and feelings daily should tell you something. You are hooked on whatever security the thought of her provides. My gosh, when I went into psychiatric care, many of us were worried about how our exes or current SOs were dealing with the thoughts and feelings of us being in there! Hello! Maybe we had some other things to deal with. Probably the nicest thing I ever did for my husband was kick his ass out the door, this gave him the freedom to not try to capitulate to every one of my mood swings. It also gave him time to realize he had some pretty serious issues. It also gave him the chance to not have to escape into his addiction because of how "I was feeling." It gave him the chance to realize how he was feeling, it isn't quite there yet, but there has been progress. He also has to realize that actions have consequences. Co-dependents like to protect each other from consequences so no one gets hurt. How do you respond to your ex? You don't, you aren't cold-hearted, you stay friendly or whatever is appropriate, but you detach. The very most you do is find a way to send her a link to a co-dependency book and then leave it at that. The best thing you can do for her is to let her figure out her own stuff, if she has someone willing to 'fix' stuff for her, she will never learn to 'fix' anything on her own. I have a mechanic. How motivated am I to learn how to fix my own car, even if he does a crappy job? I might complain about the service, but I probably won't go get my own wrenches. A codependent will dump another codependent under two conditions: 1. they aren't getting the security and identity that they were getting in the beginning. Very common or 2. They did it to trigger a reaction from the other codependent such as begging pleading etc, to reaffirm that relationship. My husband would always threaten to leave and then not follow-through. I am not sure how much of this was exasperation and how much of it was yanking my chain for validation, probably a combo of both. A codependent coined the phrase "well if I am so terrible, why don't you just leave?" BTW my friend, it is no cosmic accident that you are studying in a mental health related field. Link to post Share on other sites
dreamingoftigers Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Thank you! You have no idea how much better you just made me feel. BTW I know it is a huge relief when you realize that you can't save the world and the weight comes off of your shoulders! Furthermore, for more info on codependents dumping others: often when an addict like an alcoholic finally heeds the advice to get better and goes through recovery, there is a funny little aftereffect. In a decent percentage of cases their spouse dumps them. Why? two reasons: 1. The addict gets healthier and starts taking responsibility for their own life, so they don't 'need' the codependent as much, thus undermining the codependents security, so many of them draw their self-esteem and validation from being needed. 2. It forces them to start to look at their own issues, which is very daunting and often shameful, most can't handle it. I heard about this cycle before and I am glad because literally within a day of my husband saying that he would go to treatment, I started thinking of leaving. I also really resented him. I knew that something was off so I tried to listen to my 'inner voice.' It was saying things like "if it had to get this bad for him to care how could everything be okay again" blah blah blah. Really what was going on in my head was this: if he fixes himself up, guess who the fat girl with the depression is in the relationship? I have to get better too and not use him as an escape for my feelings and issues. I actually have to deal with my own feelings and issues. And he is going to be watching me. Truthfully if he does his recovery properly and for real, he'll be watching himself and potentially being supportive of me. I know that I have to work on my issues anyways and that they really aren't any of his damned business and that I have to hold that line. Before I had to kick him out, I started doing the groundwork already and exercising, tracking my own moods and not venting to him etc. You know what happened? His addictive behaviour went through the roof and he really started testing me. Remember, when Co-A becomes more independent, it throws Co-B off. They overcompensate for not having that validation need met somehow. My husband chose escapism. Which would normally cause me to cling, but I didn't. (I did later on, but at least the cycle went through a disruption). With me not clinging, that brought things to a header. My husband had to make choices that weren't going to be based on me clinging or not. You were mentioning that you didn't have these issues before. Well my therapist has strongly pointed out that often these things don't become apparent until you enter into a relationship. A lot of these codependent traits are strictly how you deal with people. No people, no problem. (in theory unless there are other issues). I am willing to bet that it isn't limited to your relationships, but it is pronounced there. You strike me as the type of guy that is always there for your friends. That kind of thing. You may not show up on football night, but if they need $20 (or whatever) there you are. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Rap17 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Wow, fantastic reply! Youre spot on, I can see myself in a lot of this, although perhaps a little less pronounced. I dont go out of my way for people in general, I think taking care of myself and being independant was something I taught myself through adulthood. My parents got divorced when I was very young, and I have no doubt that it has impacted me. My mother has passed away and my father is living in another country, and I dont have much contact with him. I think I might resent him a bit, and I guess that makes perfect sense in this context. But after the divorce and onward Ive had a very loving upbringing, although I should note that my mom and my sister raised me, and my mother didnt meet a new man until I was almost a teenager. So yeah, Ive definantly assimilated some "female traits" as to caring/nurturing behaviour, and how Im in touch with my emotions. My ex parallels this, but the problems in her ubringing were much more severe and continued into her mid teens. Her parents got divorced when she was 2 years old and she moved away from her father to live with her mom in her early teens. During that time she actually became a caregiver for her mother, since it turned out she was a compulsive gambler, something she tried to hide from her daughter. Add on top of this various boyfriends mistreating her, also sexually, it becomes apparent to me why she is unable to fully trust other people, men especially. Im not trying to take focus away from my own issues here. All I can say is that although I did have some happenings in my life as a child that has probably marked me to this day, I did have a healthy and caring upbringing following my parents divorce. But due to lack of a father figure several years of my childhood, it has probably had some impact on the adult I am today. My ex on the other hand, has had a very turbulent upbringing that kept on going until her mid, perhaps late teens, (she moved back to her father at the age of 16 I believe). So while I think my codependency traits become apparent when Im under severe emotional stress and too demanding of myself for longer periods of time, (I aquired a depression in my mid twenties because my mother was sick with cancer), its also apparent to me that it something thats visibly present much more frequently with my ex. I do believe that my ex and I are both codependent. I think without knowing that Ive taught myself to be much more independent in my adulthood, and that my codependency only surfaces when Im struggling with life in general, (be it depression, breakup and so on). But my ex has never been on her own in her adult life. From the age of 16-20 she lived with her ex boyfriend, (the one before me), then I met her and while we didnt live together, we were a couple. So, I guess this is a good thing for both of us huh. But while Im spending a lot of time rediscovering my inner self and my emotions, (and also doing social stuff ofc), shes out there socializing all the time, working and maintaining studies at the same time, never on her own from what I can tell. Striving to be "perfect" in all ways, because like she told me, she has no self esteem and doesnt believe in her own abilities, so she constantly seeks others approval. Also I might add, that while codependency will surface in a relationship, I always kept a balance. It was only when she started to distance herself from me in the last few months that I truly changed into the needy, clingy mess I was, and I guess still is to some extent. While I do seek approval from her, and others as well, Im also beginning to accept and love myself for who I am. While my focus is now primarily on my own self growth and what I can learn from all of this, her focus is on seeking validation from her surroundings. And as a codependent that hurts me a little, thats the very nature of the issue isnt it. Btw, studying to become a social worker is actually more random than you might think. I studied to become a musician first, but again, being on stage brings its own kind of approval and validation from the crowd in session, doesnt it I changed career path because I needed an education that was financially "safe" in the future, before I got too old, and hey, social work seemed a natural fit. Haha, guess I can throw "random" out the window after all Edited March 22, 2011 by Rap17 Link to post Share on other sites
dreamingoftigers Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Wow, fantastic reply! You're spot on, I can see myself in a lot of this, although perhaps a little less pronounced. Thanks! Validation! Haha! And yes you will most likely be less pronounced, you also weren't married for five years and have a little kid plus have as nutty of a childhood (in theory) as myself or my H. So your issue shouldn't be as pronounced. I dont go out of my way for people in general, I think taking care of myself and being independant was something I taught myself through adulthood. Good for you, I have given away and loaned out literally thousands of dollars that I never see again in the name of 'helping' people who were often even in better positions then me! I wish that I had known how to say 'no' more often when i was younger. My parents got divorced when I was very young, and I have no doubt that it has impacted me. My mother has passed away and my father is living in another country, and I dont have much contact with him. I think I might resent him a bit, and I guess that makes perfect sense in this context. Oh totally it would have impacted you, having a sex gender parent not in your life in a very significant manner would have made it more difficult to forge an independent emotional identity. Losing your opposite gender parent, I cannot imagine. I am typing on my phone so the formatting here looks terrible! But after the divorce and onward Ive had a very loving upbringing, although I should note that my mom and my sister raised me, and my mother didnt meet a new man until I was almost a teenager. So yeah, Ive definantly assimilated some "female traits" as to caring/nurturing behaviour, and how Im in touch with my emotions. You write long posts like me! Ha ha. My husband's most consistent parent was his single grandmother. She seems to have made the strongest impression on him. This has it's pros and cons. Conversationally he is ten times ahead of the game compared with his peers. But she was emotionally unstable and is quick to anger (apparently she has cooled off significantly, I cannot imagine the minefield he grew up in and my father is a bipolar alcoholic
Recommended Posts