What is it that I don't get?

[Lauriebell82]

You are twisting things now. I was talking about what goes on in my MM's mind which he has shared with me. He does not want a counselor who has a preset pro-marriage mindset. I wasn't talking about what was going on in LB's mind, so I don't understand what you are getting at.

 

Okay, so he wants a counselor who isn't going to judge him? That's pretty easy to find, as part of a therapist's job is to be non-judgemental. There is a distinct difference however, between judging behavior and enabling it. No therapist is going to enable him having an A if that is what he is after. The reason for this is because if you are actively engaging in unhealthy and problematic behaviors, how are you supposed to change?

 

What does your MM want to seek counseling for?

[pureinheart]

It's not a discussion when another poster is stating as a fact what is going on in my life, my relationship, my mind.

 

I don't mind discussions with different opinions, in fact that is why I post on LS. But please don't presume to know what goes on in my life, my relationship, my mind. (Not directed at you, BB.)

 

I recently read an article about how online bullying and abuse is becoming more and more of a problem as internet forums are being used by more and more people. We are humans behind the keyboards, we react to others as we would in real life, and posters use the same manipulation and control tactics as they would in real life.

 

In bold...this is what is scary, and I have thought about this thinking that maybe it (internet forums) are a release of some sort, although then you see the continued abuse and behavior day after day, you have to know that it is the make up of the individual.

 

I have to say that after reading page nine, Jennie, I felt my mind being twisted into a pretzel. Not sure if it's me or what, although you made perfect sense to me. I feel this way a lot, specifically on LS.

 

I don't understand how I can say 2 + 2 = 4, and that will be twisted. One poster commented on "our filter" and how we filter in other peoples information and that sometimes it's off...I like that senario since hearing it.

 

BTW, your post is an eye opener bigtime...very scary.

[Pink_orchid]

I have a fair bit of life experience, I have been the woman cheated on, and I have been the other woman so I know how both feels.

 

In some cases I think it's true that the betrayed wife doesn't know her husband is having an affair because the men are such liars and they are very skilled in acting loving and committed at home. I know because I have had this happen. When I was cheated on by an ex-boyfriend who had an affair with a work colleague, I was honestly gobsmacked to find out, because he was so loving and desperate to see me all the time and our love making was as good as ever.

 

Also I know there are women who have philandering men who clearly do know but choose to ignore it. I have personally known several women who have been presented with so much evidence and yet they ignore/dismiss/excuse it. I couldn't do it myself (ignore the evidence) but I know it must be hard to face and maybe financially if you have to contemplate facing that affair, do you forgive or divorce, and maybe leave your house, uproot your kids, struggle financially.

 

I once knew a girl (20 years old or so) who was a neighbour and her boyfriend used to bring women home to sleep with! And she put up with it! How obviously can you be told, your boyfriend is cheating?! I do find it sad though when women keep taking men back who repeatedly cheat. And the woman obviously know about it. It seems a lot of celebrities do it, famous footballers' wives are the worst. The women just stay for the luxury lifestyle but get treated like dirt really. Of course the men will do it again because there's no reason to stop if there's no punishment for their actions.

[Silly_Girl]

Okay, so he wants a counselor who isn't going to judge him? That's pretty easy to find, as part of a therapist's job is to be non-judgemental. There is a distinct difference however, between judging behavior and enabling it. No therapist is going to enable him having an A if that is what he is after. The reason for this is because if you are actively engaging in unhealthy and problematic behaviors, how are you supposed to change?

 

 

Please would you expand on the bolded. My counsellor had no opinion on whether I should or shouldn't end the relationship I was upset and concerned about, with a married man. I'm intrigued.

[OWoman]

I never said other relationships aren't addictive..they are. But an A is especially addictive because there is codependency involved.

 

Perhaps the very limited exposure you've had to As has been characterised by codependency, but that's certainly not definitive of all As! :lmao: I am the furthest you can get from co-dependent - certainly by the wikipedia definition you posted - and yet for decades As were my preferred kind of R because it suited my lifestyle and what I wanted.

 

And no, that wasn't the result of an addiction, it was the result of an informed, rational choice. Once my circumstances and priorities shifted, so did my choices. OWs, OMs and MPs in healthy As are as far removed from addiction and co-dependency as anyone else in any other kind of healthy R.

 

Perhaps the people who consult you are in crisis, needing guidance and assistance, and feeling out of control in their lives, which is why you think As are so negative. It would be the same as a MC deciding that all Ms were evil and destructive on the basis of the small sample s/he was exposed to, being MPs in difficulty in their Ms; or a child psychologist deciding that childhood was toxic and damaging to children because the children s/he gets to see are children in need.

 

I know OW are hesistant to call A's an addiction because it paints them/their relationship in a negative light. But an A IS negative, just as abusive relationships are negative.

 

Perhaps from your POV, as a marriage evangelist. But for those of us who don't worship at the altar of the sanctity of marriage, we lack the prejudice against a whole category of Rs and prefer to evaluate each individual A (as with any other consenting adult R) on its own merits.

 

Your view is far from universal among counsellors, many of whom specialise and have far more experience (and better qualifications) in this area than you have. My H was fortunate to have one such well-read, open-minded, progressive and experienced IC during his A, as a result of which he managed to escape from a real abusive R and address the codependent behaviour that had kept him trapped in that M for decades. Had he had the misfortune to land up with a marriage evangelist, he may well be dead by now.

[jennie-jennie]

You may be confusing my assessment of you with me knowing what is going on in your head. That's an addictive thinking pattern. I actually never even planned on giving you any advice at all, as you weren't the person who was posting in the thread. You actually have brought yourself into the discussion and opened yourself up for this type of discussion and feedback. If you don't want someone commenting on your A, then do not post about it, even in someone else's thread. And I have to say, you have displayed the same type of behavior in this thread that you have been attacking me and everyone else for. You seem to think you know exactly what everyone on this thread is thinking as well and we aren't getting bent out of shape about it.

 

It's fine if you think I'm wrong, I'm just telling you what I am analyzing by your posts. I'm not a mind reader or a psychic, I'm just commenting on what I see in your thinking patterns. You can agree or disagree with me, that's your right. I don't characterize that as abuse at all.

 

Thanks, but no thanks. If I wanted a counselor to assess and analyze me I'd pay for a counselor of my own choosing.

[OWoman]

Okay, so he wants a counselor who isn't going to judge him? That's pretty easy to find, as part of a therapist's job is to be non-judgemental. There is a distinct difference however, between judging behavior and enabling it. No therapist is going to enable him having an A if that is what he is after. The reason for this is because if you are actively engaging in unhealthy and problematic behaviors, how are you supposed to change?

 

Sometimes the M is the "unhealthy and problematic behaviour", and the A is the healthy R.

 

I don't know what you're referring to as an IC "enabling" an A, but my H's IC certainly supported his continuing in the A and dumping his xW, because - like any good counsellor - he had his client's best interests at heart, rather than propping up some dysfunctional social structure.

[anne1707]

Sometimes the M is the "unhealthy and problematic behaviour", and the A is the healthy R.

 

I don't know what you're referring to as an IC "enabling" an A, but my H's IC certainly supported his continuing in the A and dumping his xW, because - like any good counsellor - he had his client's best interests at heart, rather than propping up some dysfunctional social structure.

 

 

Well I am sorry but your H's counsellor broke ethical guidelines then so is not a good counsellor. A good & professional counsellor will never cast such judgements. They are there to let the client find their own solutions.

[Silly_Girl]

Well I am sorry but your H's counsellor broke ethical guidelines then so is not a good counsellor. A good & professional counsellor will never cast such judgements. They are there to let the client find their own solutions.

 

I can't answer definitively but if Mr OWoman's counsellor was like mine he'd have decided (with/without counselling) what he wanted to do and the counsellor said 'so be it'.

 

A counsellor also can't say 'you're crazy - you must end this affair', so it's to some degree a moot point.

[anne1707]

I can't answer definitively but if Mr OWoman's counsellor was like mine he'd have decided (with/without counselling) what he wanted to do and the counsellor said 'so be it'.

 

A counsellor also can't say 'you're crazy - you must end this affair', so it's to some degree a moot point.

 

I assume you mean your MM would have decided what he wanted and not the counsellor - which is exactly the way it should be

 

On your second point - just as a counsellor should not say end the affair, they should not say continue the affair (which is what OWoman seems to implied happened ). A good counsellor provides a safe environment for the client to make the decision.

[pureinheart]

I have a fair bit of life experience, I have been the woman cheated on, and I have been the other woman so I know how both feels.

 

In some cases I think it's true that the betrayed wife doesn't know her husband is having an affair because the men are such liars and they are very skilled in acting loving and committed at home. I know because I have had this happen. When I was cheated on by an ex-boyfriend who had an affair with a work colleague, I was honestly gobsmacked to find out, because he was so loving and desperate to see me all the time and our love making was as good as ever.

 

Also I know there are women who have philandering men who clearly do know but choose to ignore it. I have personally known several women who have been presented with so much evidence and yet they ignore/dismiss/excuse it. I couldn't do it myself (ignore the evidence) but I know it must be hard to face and maybe financially if you have to contemplate facing that affair, do you forgive or divorce, and maybe leave your house, uproot your kids, struggle financially.

 

I once knew a girl (20 years old or so) who was a neighbour and her boyfriend used to bring women home to sleep with! And she put up with it! How obviously can you be told, your boyfriend is cheating?! I do find it sad though when women keep taking men back who repeatedly cheat. And the woman obviously know about it. It seems a lot of celebrities do it, famous footballers' wives are the worst. The women just stay for the luxury lifestyle but get treated like dirt really. Of course the men will do it again because there's no reason to stop if there's no punishment for their actions.

 

First off want to say I'm really sorry for any pain you experienced...I hate to see nice people in or experienced great pain.

 

In bold...trust me, these "poor" women had their own men on the side too...not making fun, but most of the women are gorgeous and use the notoriety of their H's for their benefit.

[pureinheart]

Sometimes the M is the "unhealthy and problematic behaviour", and the A is the healthy R.

 

I don't know what you're referring to as an IC "enabling" an A, but my H's IC certainly supported his continuing in the A and dumping his xW, because - like any good counsellor - he had his client's best interests at heart, rather than propping up some dysfunctional social structure.

 

LB, I know in my case, this was fact (bold)...the problem was the M, he just needed to understand what was keeping him in it, and I was more than happy to encourage him to live healthier.

[anne1707]

LB, I know in my case, this was fact (bold)...the problem was the M, he just needed to understand what was keeping him in it, and I was more than happy to encourage him to live healthier.

 

Of course you were happy to do this but you were not his counsellor!

[BB07]

More delusional than psychotic.

 

Perhaps you might have some issues of your own since your only purpose is to come to this part of the forum and spit out one liner insults.

[pureinheart]

Of course you were happy to do this but you were not his counsellor!

 

At that time he would not go near a councellor even though I was encouraging him to.

 

If a friend was drowning, you would let them drown, right!

[anne1707]

At that time he would not go near a councellor even though I was encouraging him to.

 

If a friend was drowning, you would let them drown, right!

 

Pure - I was responding to another posters comments about her husband's counsellor so I don't quite see how that relates to your comments about YOU helping your MM or a drowning friend. My comments were in reference to somebody who is supposed to be having a non-judgemental, professional working relationship with their client with clear boundaries based on established ethical guidelines. The poster was describing her husband's counsellor as good because they had encouraged the continuation of the affair. A good counsellor will never encourage like this (just as they should not encourage someone to stay in a marriage). They are there to facilitate the cleint's personal decision making process.

[OWoman]

Well I am sorry but your H's counsellor broke ethical guidelines then so is not a good counsellor. A good & professional counsellor will never cast such judgements. They are there to let the client find their own solutions.

 

Ah - it seems that I wasn't sufficiently clear about what I meant. When I said my H's IC had supported his continuing the A, I did not mean it in a prescriptive sense. His IC certainly did not tell him what to do - that's not his role - but nor did he tell him that the A was bad, negative, or unhealthy.

 

I used the term "supported" in the same way that I'd use it to describe the way I supported my son's decision to study a field that is notorious for being difficult, involving long hours and poor remuneration, and a good deal of frustration. It's not what I would choose for myself; it's probably not what I would have chosen for him; but I recognise his right to choose it as a career; I recognise its congruence with his values and with what he wants from a career; I recognise the satisfaction he derives from it and I can anticipate the "self" he sees himself developing through it. And so, I will help him to achieve his goals through that - in my case, by supporting him financially, and helping him navigate those obstacles and challenges he comes up against that require some intervention beyond his own capacity. I certainly would never push him into something, nor would I manipulate his choice by conditionally supporting only those options that resonate with my own preferences. I want him to exercise his independence and to achieve success in his chosen area - and I'm willing to facilitate that in appropriate ways.

 

Which was what my H's IC did, mutatis mutandis. No ethical misconduct - just really good IC!

 

I hope that that clarifies?

[anne1707]

I hope that that clarifies?

 

It does - thank you

[seren]

I interpret several of LB's posts to be telling me what is going on in my mind and in my life. I do find this very abusive. My exSO would do that at times, think he knew better than me how I felt or what I thought. It really gets to me when people who are not inside my head think they know what is going on there.

 

I am interested in this opinion of abuse as one of the things that really, really ticks me off about A's is that it is often said that the WS doesn't tell their BS because they don't want to hurt them; they would take them to the cleaners about money, child visitation etc.

It seems to me, that continued gaslighting and lying or justifying the non disclosure of an A because of something the WS thinks the BS would do, is a form of abuse as they think they know how the BS will respond.

 

BB, have you ever stood face to face with someone who has told you he knows better than you what you are thinking? It is so abusive.

 

Oh I had stood and asked H (during the A time) if there was someone else, if there was to just say and go get her, or that he was being a jerk, or wondering why he was acting differently when he was saying he loved me etc only to be told I was imagining it. I thought I was going out of my mind. It's why I believe A's to be a form of emotional abuse and as someone who just couldn't condone abuse of another, finds the continued A's baffling. I get the falling in love and leaving one's, just not the long draw out one's.

 

Not directing this at you JJ, it just struck me as an interesting comparison.

[pureinheart]

LB, I know in my case, this was fact (bold)...the problem was the M, he just needed to understand what was keeping him in it, and I was more than happy to encourage him to live healthier.

 

Pure - I was responding to another posters comments about her husband's counsellor so I don't quite see how that relates to your comments about YOU helping your MM or a drowning friend. My comments were in reference to somebody who is supposed to be having a non-judgemental, professional working relationship with their client with clear boundaries based on established ethical guidelines. The poster was describing her husband's counsellor as good because they had encouraged the continuation of the affair. A good counsellor will never encourage like this (just as they should not encourage someone to stay in a marriage). They are there to facilitate the cleint's personal decision making process.

 

Hi Anne:)...in post #148 I quoted (partial quote of OWoman) where she states that the M was problematic...I bolded that portion agreeing that my case was the same, but I just agreed and bolded with that part because exDM had not started IC until after his separation.

 

LB had communicated earlier that the A is usually the problem, if not always (that is not a direct quote from LB, just a major paraphrase). I felt it was important to state my personal experience also as M's can be the problem also.

[anne1707]

Hi Anne:)...in post #148 I quoted (partial quote of OWoman) where she states that the M was problematic...I bolded that portion agreeing that my case was the same, but I just agreed and bolded with that part because exDM had not started IC until after his separation.

 

LB had communicated earlier that the A is usually the problem, if not always (that is not a direct quote from LB, just a major paraphrase). I felt it was important to state my personal experience also as M's can be the problem also.

 

 

I can see that now - my mix up

[Lauriebell82]

I don't appreciate the posters who are saying I'm not qualified, you have no idea what my professional ability is. How about I disqualify what you do for a living? Okay rant over.

 

Back to topic. It's true that I am pro-marriage, but would never ever advise anyone to remain or leave an A. I would just help them work through their feelings and as Anne said, support decision process.

[NoIDidn't]

This thread is so far from topic as to be unrecognizable.

 

The OP wanted to know why the OPs (particularly OWs in his case) fell for the "lies" of the MPs. Why they thought they were so great when others reading the same story don't see this at all.

 

Wow. Now we are condemning people for being pro-marriage and talking about good counsellors. LOL.