What is it that I don't get?

[OWoman]

Or after posting loud and long against affairs, I could have found myself "fallen into" one. Ya think I'd ever admit it here? Most likely not.

 

It does happen - I recall one fBS who posted quite virulently against As, later revealing that he was moving closer to his long-term MW. His wasn't the only case of those you consider "unlikely", but those of us who remember him from his early days were struck by the change in him from his harsh, former style to the later gentle, caring, engaging man he revealed himself to be.

 

Or if I'm an OW or BW who has bragged about how much my MM or fWH loves me - and then he dumps me and leaves me cold - I think there's a good possibility I might not tell that here.

 

Many have. Some continue to do so, as only OWs who renounce their evil OW ways and embrace NC are likely to get a compassionate response here these days.

 

Or if I'm an OW who married my MM, and I've bragged about it on this board, and stirred controversy by doing so, and then I discover that my H is in fact having an affair, or if my M takes a turn for the worse and I am miserable and regret the marriage, I am not likely to come here and post that. (before anyone reports me, let me make perfectly clear that I'm not talking about anyone - just a random what-if.)

 

Of the fOWs now M to their fMMs, I can't recall many if any "bragging", so I guess this is a completely hypothetical-yet-to-be-seen scenario. However, I'm sure that if any of us fOWs now M to our fMMs who continue to post here on occasion were to experience either a betrayal or some other R problems, we'd deal with those appropriately, as we have with the other aspects of our Rs - as we've seen (fOWs posting about step-parenting, blending families, etc).

 

if they so choose[/b]. So as has been said many, many times, what an OW or BW thinks she knows, and what the truth is, may be two completely different things.

 

Sure - depending on who the MM chooses to deceive, that person may well be deceived, as most BSs (pre-DDay) and some OWs are. However, where the MM chooses to live his life transparently to at least one of those women, that woman will not be deceived because she will be included, and have access to all the other aspects of his life that either support or refute anything he may claim.

 

Based on all the possibilities of an anonymous Internet board, and all the deceit that can go on in an affair, you can't make any hard and fast claims or assumptions about a stranger's long-distance MM's marriage. Or really anythig else you read here. So to be arguing about whether someone's long-distance MM's marriage is dead is really just futile, IMHO.

 

No one has to believe anything anyone claims here. That's their call. But to deny the possibility that some people may actually hold all the knowledge they need about their own situations is also erroneous.

 

As has been said on LS many times: No one but the MM knows.

 

... and those with whom he openly shares the rest of his life, if any.

 

So let's not spazz out over these things, and keep an open mind to the possibilities.

 

Am I alone in finding that turn of phrase offensive? Is able-ism deemed OK in a way that racism or homophobia isn't? :sick:

[Fieldsofgold]

According to dictionary.com:

 

"Main Entry: spazz out. Part of Speech: verb phrase Definition: to become extremely emotional, lose control; also written spaz out"

 

That makes no mention of able-ism.

 

However, the definition for spaz, when used as an adjective (which is decidedly not the term I used, nor how I used it):

 

spaz can be a slang term used to describe (dictionary quote here): an awkward or eccentric person.

 

So if I have offended any readers here who are either awkward or eccentric, my deepest apologies. I was using the verb phrase and not the adjective.

 

Certainly no offense or slight to anyone was intended.

 

I find it more than a little interesting that I submitted a post encouraging us to all be calm, take a deep breath and try to understand others' POV, and people take offense to it. And I end up having to resort to a dictionary to try, once again, to exonerate myself and restore peace to the board.

 

But back to the topic: I think trust is always a choice. Usually people base that choice on actions. What constitutes trustworthy actions clearly varies from person to person, as seen from various postings here, and the passionate reactions they evoke.

[jthorne]

People overcomplicate things on here:

 

The married guy thinks:

I have a wife I dont want anotha. But I want an affair for the fun/excitement/sex/whatever. 5 months lata, shheeet, this girl is way too into me, throw her a few lines and treat her bad until she's tired of waitin and goes away, else my wife will find out. 5 months lata, had to dump that girl shes crazee she wouldnt leave me alone.

 

The woman thinks:

I am in love with this dude, just anotha 5 months or somethin then he will stop lyin and make good on his promises, in the meantime Ill wait and get upset everytime he breaks promises but hey its worth it. Another 5 months - OMG he dumped me, he mustv been lyin all along, how can he be so cold etc.

 

Seriously dudes weve all made mistakes, messin with married dudes thats a mistake, go find a nice single guy like me LOL.

Hey, great idea! That's what I did!

 

BTW, You're not my hubby are you? Guess not if you're single.

[OWoman]

According to dictionary.com:

 

"Main Entry: spazz out. Part of Speech: verb phrase Definition: to become extremely emotional, lose control; also written spaz out"

 

That makes no mention of able-ism.

 

The part you left out (yes, from the source you quoted, dictionary.com:

 

spaz   

[spaz] Show IPA

–noun Slang .

1.

a grotesquely awkward person.

2.

an eccentric person.

Also, spazz.

 

Origin:

1960–65; shortening and alter. of spastic

 

Which, if you look up, will tell you:

 

World English Dictionary

spastic (ˈspæstɪk, spæsˈtɪsɪtɪ)

 

— n

1. an old-fashioned and now offensive name for a person who has cerebral palsy

 

Still unclear why it's ableist and offensive?

[phillyfan]

Hey, great idea! That's what I did!

 

BTW, You're not my hubby are you? Guess not if you're single.

 

LOL no but dammit lady your avatar is hot, if u look anythin like that, then I kinda wish I was :D

[jennie-jennie]

LOL no but dammit lady your avatar is hot, if u look anythin like that, then I kinda wish I was :D

 

Who knows, she might want to become your MOW?

[Fieldsofgold]

The part you left out (yes, from the source you quoted, dictionary.com:

 

 

 

Which, if you look up, will tell you:

 

 

 

Still unclear why it's ableist and offensive?

 

Yes, it is still unclear to me why the phrase "spazz out" is offensive. I did not call anyone a "spazz."

 

To further rectify the situation, I apologized profusely for anyone who may have been offended by my choice of words.

 

I'm beginning to feel I'm being bashed here, and wondering why I've obviously hit such a nerve.

 

I don't understand why an issue continues to be made of it. I have apologized. We disagree. There is no where else to go with it. To further rake it over is simply detracting from the focus of the thread.

 

***********

 

Back to the original post. My point is that anyone can post on here claiming anything - and we, the readers, have no way of knowing the truth of the matter, unless we are personally involved with the poster.

 

Furthermore, a married affair partner can, and often does, lie to the BS, the ow/om, and anyone else as they see fit.

 

Just because someone posts about how wonderful their life is - whether from an ow/om, a WS, or a happily-married or happily-single person - we cannot hold it up as unrefutable proof of anything.

 

Bernie Madoff comes to mind. Certainly he fooled, conned, and took terrible advantage of some of the sharpest, shrewdest people in the world, using one of the oldest and simplest of scams! Many of those people dealth with him f2f, and clearly were sure they could trust him.

 

Anyone can be fooled. Either intentionally, or unintentionally. That's all I'm saying.

 

(And I say that as a caution to those here who are looking for advice and direction. What you read here may be true. But it also may be fiction.)

 

But in the bigger picture, I think it often applies to how and why people get into and stay in affairs. Often I think it is simply because they believe a lie.

[jthorne]

Nevermind. Have a great weekend, ya'all!

Edited November 19, 2010 by jthorne

[pureinheart]

Right, but when you post details of your relationship on LS, they are there forever for all to see. It's pretty obvious you are very proud of being with your MM. I do not agree or condone what you are doing, however that is my own personal belief system, as do many other's on LS that feel that way. So when you DO post about your A (or anyone else for that matter) you leave yourself open for those members to post who do think cheating is immoral and those who think being with a MM is the greatest thing in the world.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that disclose at your own risk. When you post about your A, people are going to disagree with you and say that they feel it's wrong.

 

Hi LB,

 

Honestly not pulling you out to be mean, although want to make a point...a point I've been trying to make in this forum.

 

This is OM/OW forum, please read the directions at the top of this forum (I can never remember exactly what it says so that's why I say to read it...lol).

 

Now if Jennie (or any other OM/OW) posted in another forum, then yes there would be much opposition expected, much like a political view. This forum was designed to discuss OM/OW issues (good or bad), so why should OM/OW expect to be bashed or "called out on the carpet" on the basis of leaving himself/herself open?

 

I am of the opinion that it's morally wrong to bash, condemn, or judge harshly others.

 

Philly,

 

Your post about people over complicating things on here...well, the descriptions you gave are true in some cases, although all sitches are different.

 

In my case, exDM did D, I think it's something he wanted for years, and according to him the very day he M.

 

I think the way you talk is interesting (cool)...

[Lauriebell82]

Hi LB,

 

Honestly not pulling you out to be mean, although want to make a point...a point I've been trying to make in this forum.

 

This is OM/OW forum, please read the directions at the top of this forum (I can never remember exactly what it says so that's why I say to read it...lol).

 

Now if Jennie (or any other OM/OW) posted in another forum, then yes there would be much opposition expected, much like a political view. This forum was designed to discuss OM/OW issues (good or bad), so why should OM/OW expect to be bashed or "called out on the carpet" on the basis of leaving himself/herself open?

 

I am of the opinion that it's morally wrong to bash, condemn, or judge harshly others.

 

I don't think anyone bashed, condemned, or judged her. I think we disagreed with her and gave her advice about continuing to remain in this A. We did insult MM, but hey he isn't the one who is posting. I think that if an OW wants advice strictly from that of OW who have had things work out for her and accept the fact that she is having an A, well then that is another website completely.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't think anyone bashed, condemned, or judged her. I think we disagreed with her and gave her advice about continuing to remain in this A. We did insult MM, but hey he isn't the one who is posting. I think that if an OW wants advice strictly from that of OW who have had things work out for her and accept the fact that she is having an A, well then that is another website completely.

 

Good luck on giving me "advice about continuing to remain in this A"! :lmao:

 

If I am going to end this relationship, it is because I am done with it, not because anyone told me so!

[Lauriebell82]

Good luck on giving me "advice about continuing to remain in this A"! :lmao:

 

If I am going to end this relationship, it is because I am done with it, not because anyone told me so!

 

I thought we were talking about the OP of this thread? What I said was not about you, it was with her. Her thread indicated she was unsure about whether to accept MM claims and was not sure whether she should keep putting up with him.

 

An A is like an addiction, I know firsthand that telling someone to get out of an A will not work if they are not willing to do so. That's like telling a drug addict to stop using..they aren't going to do it until they are ready.

[jennie-jennie]

I thought we were talking about the OP of this thread? What I said was not about you, it was with her. Her thread indicated she was unsure about whether to accept MM claims and was not sure whether she should keep putting up with him.

 

An A is like an addiction, I know firsthand that telling someone to get out of an A will not work if they are not willing to do so. That's like telling a drug addict to stop using..they aren't going to do it until they are ready.

 

You quote a post talking about "Jennie" and then talk about "her", well sorry if I thought you were referring to me.

 

Affairs can be "like an addiction", if you are a sexual addict. Otherwise affairs are no more an addiction than any other relationship. Being in love triggers chemicals in your brain which are very pleasurable. This is true of all relationships, thus all relationships are as addictive in the beginning stages when the level of these chemicals in the brain is high.

[jennie-jennie]

Is something manifesting itself here?

 

Yep, my love for smilies! :love:

[fooled once]

I think everyone wether it be an OW or an OM, wants to believe their story is different. That their relationship is the exception to the rule. More often than not, they are no exception. Although it does happen, I am sure it takes a lot of rationalizing to know your happiness came at the cost of someone else's marriage. That's not to say all betrayed spouse's are innocent little angels, they are not. In many cases, they too made mistakes that led to the isolation of their partners and the absolution of their marriage.

 

That does not make turning to an affair right, but it happens. People have this belief that if you love someone you do not cheat on them. I'm not entirely sure I believe that, I don't think wether you will cheat or not has anything to do with loving or not loving a person. It is about what is in your personal values. If you have an affair, it is because deep down your values are "okay" with having affairs. While that certainly does not mean all OM or OW are doomed to be cheated on, it certainly greatly increases the risks since they already know out of the gate that partner has crossed the line and affairs are acceptable.

 

Affairs sound to me like a personal hell. In order to get what you want, you have to hurt someone else and I do not just mean a spouse, but there are children in many cases who will also be affected wether they are grown or young. That is in the small percentage of cases that ever actually "get what they want"

 

the other alternative is to spend time sharing a man or woman neither who will fully comitt to you, and what often ends in a lot of hurt between all parties.

 

I have seen how friends can able those who are in affairs to stay in them, too. The one thing about affairs, is that they are very easy to shape and mold in any perspective you want. There are no real lines drawn, so every action can be interpeted to fit the fantasy you want, to play into the storyline you need to believe.

 

Great post!

 

According to dictionary.com:

 

"Main Entry: spazz out. Part of Speech: verb phrase Definition: to become extremely emotional, lose control; also written spaz out"

 

That makes no mention of able-ism.

 

However, the definition for spaz, when used as an adjective (which is decidedly not the term I used, nor how I used it):

 

spaz can be a slang term used to describe (dictionary quote here): an awkward or eccentric person.

 

So if I have offended any readers here who are either awkward or eccentric, my deepest apologies. I was using the verb phrase and not the adjective.

 

Certainly no offense or slight to anyone was intended.

 

I find it more than a little interesting that I submitted a post encouraging us to all be calm, take a deep breath and try to understand others' POV, and people take offense to it. And I end up having to resort to a dictionary to try, once again, to exonerate myself and restore peace to the board.

 

But back to the topic: I think trust is always a choice. Usually people base that choice on actions. What constitutes trustworthy actions clearly varies from person to person, as seen from various postings here, and the passionate reactions they evoke.

 

FoG - I wasn't offended and actually had no idea what the other poster was even talking about. Please do not feel you need to apologize because someone read something ERRONEOUSLY into your post (actually, the poster IMHO chose to make an issue of an innocent comment. There was NO malice in your post at all!)

 

The part you left out (yes, from the source you quoted, dictionary.com:

 

Which, if you look up, will tell you:

 

Still unclear why it's ableist and offensive?

 

It's not offensive <shrug> Not sure why YOU chose to pick apart a WORD at the end of a post. Why are you feeling the need to needle/poke at FoG? For heaven's sake, she apologized, but for some reason, that isn't good enough. YOU are the only who commented on the use of her word SPAZZED and made an issue of it. I have seen far worse offensive comments here and it is amazing you chose to pick on FoG.

 

Hi LB,

 

Honestly not pulling you out to be mean, although want to make a point...a point I've been trying to make in this forum.

 

This is OM/OW forum, please read the directions at the top of this forum (I can never remember exactly what it says so that's why I say to read it...lol).

 

Now if Jennie (or any other OM/OW) posted in another forum, then yes there would be much opposition expected, much like a political view. This forum was designed to discuss OM/OW issues (good or bad), so why should OM/OW expect to be bashed or "called out on the carpet" on the basis of leaving himself/herself open?

I am of the opinion that it's morally wrong to bash, condemn, or judge harshly others.

.

 

Do you mean a comment like one that was just posted in this thread, which was totally uncalled for, rude, off topic and completely a mean and callous remark to make? A remark that is calling a poster's integrity into question? Because if that is the kind of remark you are talking about, I actually AGREE with you!

[GreenEyedLady]

An A is like an addiction, I know firsthand that telling someone to get out of an A will not work if they are not willing to do so. That's like telling a drug addict to stop using..they aren't going to do it until they are ready.

 

So you are saying a relationship of any kind is an addiction?

 

As far as I know, any A is a relationship. That includes a friendship or marriage.

 

How is an A an addiction, yet a M or friendship is not?

 

GEL

[pureinheart]

Hi LB,

 

Honestly not pulling you out to be mean, although want to make a point...a point I've been trying to make in this forum.

 

This is OM/OW forum, please read the directions at the top of this forum (I can never remember exactly what it says so that's why I say to read it...lol).

 

Now if Jennie (or any other OM/OW) posted in another forum, then yes there would be much opposition expected, much like a political view. This forum was designed to discuss OM/OW issues (good or bad), so why should OM/OW expect to be bashed or "called out on the carpet" on the basis of leaving himself/herself open?

 

I am of the opinion that it's morally wrong to bash, condemn, or judge harshly others.

 

I don't think anyone bashed, condemned, or judged her. I think we disagreed with her and gave her advice about continuing to remain in this A. We did insult MM, but hey he isn't the one who is posting. I think that if an OW wants advice strictly from that of OW who have had things work out for her and accept the fact that she is having an A, well then that is another website completely.

 

LB, my total bad, you haven't, I was speaking in general concerning this forum...as you can see my communication skills lack at times...apologies for this:o

[pureinheart]

 

Do you mean a comment like one that was just posted in this thread, which was totally uncalled for, rude, off topic and completely a mean and callous remark to make? A remark that is calling a poster's integrity into question? Because if that is the kind of remark you are talking about, I actually AGREE with you!

 

And who pray tell would you be referring to:rolleyes:

[bentnotbroken]

So you are saying a relationship of any kind is an addiction?

 

As far as I know, any A is a relationship. That includes a friendship or marriage.

 

How is an A an addiction, yet a M or friendship is not?

 

GEL

 

 

GEL I have always felt that you and a couple of the other long timers were the exception to the norm. I suspect that has a lot more to do with your awareness of self and the love you have for yourself. That isn't what I see with a lot of posters in A. Yes some, but the numbers aren't there. I am not just talking about on here but in the real world too. I do believe there are addictive qualities to an affair. The secrecy of a entirely different life with someone is one. That doesn't exist in a friendship or marriage. All parties are aware.

 

The anatomy of an affair does encompass some of the same aspects of any other interpersonal relationship, but there are also aspects that lead add to it because the stakes are so high and the possible fallout devastating for so many.

[Lauriebell82]

So you are saying a relationship of any kind is an addiction?

 

As far as I know, any A is a relationship. That includes a friendship or marriage.

 

How is an A an addiction, yet a M or friendship is not?

 

GEL

 

I never said other relationships aren't addictive..they are. But an A is especially addictive because there is codependency involved.

 

I know OW are hesistant to call A's an addiction because it paints them/their relationship in a negative light. But an A IS negative, just as abusive relationships are negative.

[jennie-jennie]

I never said other relationships aren't addictive..they are. But an A is especially addictive because there is codependency involved.

 

I know OW are hesistant to call A's an addiction because it paints them/their relationship in a negative light. But an A IS negative, just as abusive relationships are negative.

 

The above is your opinion, not facts, not experience.

 

You can only be codependent if your partner suffers from an addiction, for example a sexual addiction. Only some of the MM are sexual addicts. For many other MM the extramarital relationship becomes a long term relationship with a deep level of emotional involvement, often deeper than their emotional involvement ever was in their marriage.

 

Hopefully an OW only stays in an extramarital relationship as long as the benefits outweigh the consequences. I was in an abusive relationship earlier. I have healed so much through my relationship with my MM. It has clearly had a positive influence on my life. And I know there are many others like me.

 

Where does your "knowledge" of affairs come from? Could you refer me to some literature you have read?

[anne1707]

It's not offensive <shrug> Not sure why YOU chose to pick apart a WORD at the end of a post. Why are you feeling the need to needle/poke at FoG? For heaven's sake, she apologized, but for some reason, that isn't good enough. YOU are the only who commented on the use of her word SPAZZED and made an issue of it. I have seen far worse offensive comments here and it is amazing you chose to pick on FoG.

 

I have to agree with OWoman. The use of the work spazz when considering it is derived from spastic is offensive. I remember as a kid, this word being used to bully and name call children in the playground. Certainly in the UK, it is now not considered to be an appropriate choice of word to describe less able bodied people and is considered incredibly distasteful. In some ways, I would say the views on the use of this word have changed over time in a similar way to the n- word being used to describe black people.

[jennie-jennie]

Here's another explanation of "codependency":

 

–adjective

of or pertaining to a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.

As you can see there are several criteria that need to be fulfilled to call an AP codependent:

 

- the WS needs to have a sexual addiction. Affairs can admittedly be a means for a WS to act out his/her sexual addiction. I believe this is most common among serial cheaters.

- the AP needs to be psychologically dependent on the MM in an unhealthy way.

[Lauriebell82]

You can only be codependent if your partner suffers from an addiction, for example a sexual addiction. Only some of the MM are sexual addicts.

 

This is actually not true. The definition of codepency is as follows (from Wikapedia):

 

Codependency or codependence is a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact one's relationships and quality of life. It also often involves putting one's needs at a lower priority than others while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including in families, at work, in friendships, and also in romantic, peer or community relationships. Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, and/or control patterns.

 

As for my knowledge of infidelity, I have a Masters degree in counseling, it was part of my course work. I have also worked with many BS and OW as well as victims of domestic violence.

 

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Lauriebell82]

Here's another explanation of "codependency":

 

As you can see there are several criteria that need to be fulfilled to call an AP codependent:

 

- the WS needs to have a sexual addiction. Affairs can admittedly be a means for a WS to act out his/her sexual addiction. I believe this is most common among serial cheaters.

- the AP needs to be psychologically dependent on the MM in an unhealthy way.

 

That is not the ONLY aspect of being codependent. Let's agree to disagree.