What is it that I don't get?

[jennie-jennie]

This is actually not true. The definition of codepency is as follows (from Wikapedia):

 

Codependency or codependence is a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact one's relationships and quality of life. It also often involves putting one's needs at a lower priority than others while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including in families, at work, in friendships, and also in romantic, peer or community relationships. Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, and/or control patterns.

 

As for my knowledge of infidelity, I have a Masters degree in counseling, it was part of my course work. I have also worked with many BS and OW as well as victims of domestic violence.

 

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

You have worked with OW! You know you represent exactly the kind of counselor with a prejudiced pro-marriage view which makes my WS hesitate to go to counseling. He wants help to sort out what his choice of path in life is, not to be told what society's view on what he should do is.

 

I can agree that codependency can be defined as Wikipedia does above. That is a broader use of the term than the definition I provided. Still, to classify an OW as codependent you then need:

 

- the OW to have a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact her relationships and quality of life

- the OW to be putting her needs at a lower priority than the MM's while being excessively preoccupied with his needs

- the OW to suffer from denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, and/or control patterns.

 

While this might be true for some OW as for any woman, you can not say that this is true for all, or even for most, OW.

 

In fact, this is why I say choice of perspective is so important for an OW. If you work on having a healthy relationship with your MM, there is no reason for you to leave that relationship unless you want to.

 

Let go of your obsessiveness of whether he is going to leave his wife or not and enjoy the relationship for all the benefits it gives you!

 

So, while getting that masters degree in counseling, did you read any good books on extramarital affairs?

Edited November 20, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

As for my knowledge of infidelity, I have a Masters degree in counseling, it was part of my course work. I have also worked with many BS and OW as well as victims of domestic violence.

 

Now I am really curious. Why would a professional counselor who has never been a participant in any part of a love triangle spend time on an OW/OM support forum? Don't you get enough of "counseling" at work? Wouldn't you rather spend your free time with the spouse you newly wedded?

[BB07]

I can agree that codependency can be defined as Wikipedia does above. That is a broader use of the term than the definition I provided. Still, to classify an OW as codependent you then need:

 

- the OW to have a tendency to behave in overly passive or excessively caretaking ways that negatively impact her relationships and quality of life

- the OW to be putting her needs at a lower priority than the MM's while being excessively preoccupied with his needs

- the OW to suffer from denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, and/or control patterns.

 

While this might be true for some OW as for any woman, you can not say that this is true for all, or even for most, OW.

 

 

Of course this is just my opinion but seems to be the majority of posters here and other OW boards is as you stated above in what constitutes a unhealthy OW codependent relationship. If the above criteria are illustrated by a poster then they should be able to leave the "unhealthy" relationship, correct?

Also just to clarify, I did not say all, I said majority. Of course maybe my view is somewhat prejudicial as most of us are by our experiences, but hey I'm human.

[BB07]

Another topic.........but what is up with this giving fieldsofgold a hard time?? She apologized! She is one of the most fair minded kindest posters here and she doesn't deserve getting raked over the coals.

[jennie-jennie]

Of course this is just my opinion but seems to be the majority of posters here and other OW boards is as you stated above in what constitutes a unhealthy OW codependent relationship. If the above criteria are illustrated by a poster then they should be able to leave the "unhealthy" relationship, correct?

Also just to clarify, I did not say all, I said majority. Of course maybe my view is somewhat prejudicial as most of us are by our experiences, but hey I'm human.

 

Incorrect. Having been a very active member of Al-Anon for a decade I know that partners of alcoholics are not encouraged to leave their partners. They are encouraged to let go of their obsession of the alcoholic and start concentrating on their own lives. They are encouraged to do this regardless of whether they choose to leave or stay with their alcoholic partner. They are encouraged to make their own choice whether they want to stay or leave since they now have an option to stay without being codependent. It is about dealing with the codependency, not about leaving the relationship.

[anne1707]

Another topic.........but what is up with this giving fieldsofgold a hard time?? She apologized! She is one of the most fair minded kindest posters here and she doesn't deserve getting raked over the coals.

 

I wasn't trying to give FoG a hard time. My post was more to defend OWoman as it seemed everybody thought she was making a fuss over nothing. I wanted to point out that at least in the UK, the use of that word is considered extremely offensive by many.

[jennie-jennie]

I wasn't trying to give FoG a hard time. My post was more to defend OWoman as it seemed everybody thought she was making a fuss over nothing. I wanted to point out that at least in the UK, the use of that word is considered extremely offensive by many.

 

I thought that was good of you. TOS actually states:

 

As a global community, it is important to recognize that not all participants are native speakers of English, nor are they all acquainted with colloquialisms popular in your particular area of the world.

[jennie-jennie]

Incorrect. Having been a very active member of Al-Anon for a decade I know that partners of alcoholics are not encouraged to leave their partners. They are encouraged to let go of their obsession of the alcoholic and start concentrating on their own lives. They are encouraged to do this regardless of whether they choose to leave or stay with their alcoholic partner. They are encouraged to make their own choice whether they want to stay or leave since they now have an option to stay without being codependent. It is about dealing with the codependency, not about leaving the relationship.

 

If you just leave the "unhealthy" relationship you are in, you take yourself with you and are likely to soon find yourself in another "unhealthy" relationship. So if you love the man you are with, be he your spouse, your MM or a single man, why not work on dealing with your codependency instead and making your relationship a healthy one?

 

Otherwise it sounds like geographical flight to me, where you believe moving yourself from the situation at hand will solve your problems. You are the problem if you are codependent, not your MM.

[BB07]

Incorrect. Having been a very active member of Al-Anon for a decade I know that partners of alcoholics are not encouraged to leave their partners. They are encouraged to let go of their obsession of the alcoholic and start concentrating on their own lives. They are encouraged to do this regardless of whether they choose to leave or stay with their alcoholic partner. They are encouraged to make their own choice whether they want to stay or leave since they now have an option to stay without being codependent. It is about dealing with the codependency, not about leaving the relationship.

 

The bolded above..........isn't that what most of do here? It's about options and I see LS as a Al-Alon of sorts for those OW in unhealthy relationships.

 

You don't see your relationship as unhealthy so I don't encourage or give you advice to leave.

 

It's the unhealthy relationships that OW are in that worry me.

[BB07]

If you just leave the "unhealthy" relationship you are in, you take yourself with you and are likely to soon find yourself in another "unhealthy" relationship. So if you love the man you are with, be he your spouse, your MM or a single man, why not work on dealing with your codependency instead and making your relationship a healthy one?

 

Otherwise it sounds like geographical flight to me, where you believe moving yourself from the situation at hand will solve your problems. You are the problem if you are codependent, not your MM.

 

I DON'T believe that removing yourself from the MM/OW relationship will fix ourselves (if we are co-dependent) but removing ourselves from any unhealthy relationship will hopefully give us clarity and we'll find the resources to fix ourselves so not to get ourselves into unhealthy relationships in the future.

You aren't going to like this comparison but would you encourage a woman in a abusive relationship to remain in it and fix herself or would you think that she had a more positive chance of fixing her co-dependent issue if she removed herself from it? Yes a lot of abused women are co-dependent.

Also it could be argued that co-dependent is not healthy love or some will say it's not love at all.

[jennie-jennie]

I DON'T believe that removing yourself from the MM/OW relationship will fix ourselves (if we are co-dependent) but removing ourselves from any unhealthy relationship will hopefully give us clarity and we'll find the resources to fix ourselves so not to get ourselves into unhealthy relationships in the future.

You aren't going to like this comparison but would you encourage a woman in a abusive relationship to remain in it and fix herself or would you think that she had a more positive chance of fixing her co-dependent issue if she removed herself from it? Yes a lot of abused women are co-dependent.

Also it could be argued that co-dependent is not healthy love or some will say it's not love at all.

 

I don't understand your comparison. Are you saying that all extramarital relationships are abusive? If not, then your comparison makes no sense.

 

And why leave a man you love when you can deal with your issues staying with him?

 

Actually, I have a problem even discussing codependency, since I have been so engaged in Al-Anon, and Al-Anon takes the stand that codependency is a term that should be avoided since it makes the spouse/partner/relative/friend continue to focus on the alcoholic instead of turning the focus on their own life. Codependency requires someone else to be dependent, and the problem lies within yourself not within your partner.

[Lauriebell82]

Now I am really curious. Why would a professional counselor who has never been a participant in any part of a love triangle spend time on an OW/OM support forum? Don't you get enough of "counseling" at work? Wouldn't you rather spend your free time with the spouse you newly wedded?

 

It's pretty clear you are looking for a fight so I'm not going to engage you. But I have to say, on a forum such as this, I would encourage you to let go of the idea that everyone is wrong and you are right.

[BB07]

I don't understand your comparison. Are you saying that all extramarital relationships are abusive? If not, then your comparison makes no sense.

 

NO of course I'm not saying all are abusive.

Sorry you don't understand my comparison, I don't think there is much else I can say to try to explain it.

 

And why leave a man you love when you can deal with your issues staying with him?

 

Because if the relationship is unhealthy and is causing pain greater than pleasure, then it's time to walk away. Staying in a unhealthy dynamic doesn't usually improve anything. Love is not enough!

Actually, I have a problem even discussing codependency, since I have been so engaged in Al-Anon, and Al-Anon takes the stand that codependency is a term that should be avoided since it makes the spouse/partner/relative/friend continue to focus on the alcoholic instead of turning the focus on their own life. Codependency requires someone else to be dependent, and the problem lies within yourself not within your partner.

 

Okie dokey.........we won't discuss it anymore.

[jennie-jennie]

It's pretty clear you are looking for a fight so I'm not going to engage you. But I have to say, on a forum such as this, I would encourage you to let go of the idea that everyone is wrong and you are right.

 

If you had participated in the discussions here longer you would know that I believe in moral relativism. So once again you are telling me what ideas I have. I find this kind of behavior particularly disturbing. It is abusive to tell others what they think.

 

Do you believe in moral relativism, or do you believe there is an absolute moral? Because if you believe there is an absolute moral, it is in fact you who need to "let go of the idea that everyone is wrong and you are right".

[jennie-jennie]

Because if the relationship is unhealthy and is causing pain greater than pleasure, then it's time to walk away. Staying in a unhealthy dynamic doesn't usually improve anything. Love is not enough!

 

So either change the dynamics or walk away. I have always stated that an OW should only stay as long as the benefits outweigh the consequences, so I believe we agree on that.

[BB07]

If you had participated in the discussions here longer you would know that I believe in moral relativism. So once again you are telling me what ideas I have. I find this kind of behavior particularly disturbing. It is abusive to tell others what they think.

 

Do you believe in moral relativism, or do you believe there is an absolute moral? Because if you believe there is an absolute moral, it is in fact you who need to "let go of the idea that everyone is wrong and you are right".

 

Curious minds want to know.............Are you implying that Lauriebell's response to your post is abusive?

[BB07]

So either change the dynamics or walk away. I have always stated that an OW should only stay as long as the benefits outweigh the consequences, so I believe we agree on that.

 

 

Yes we do agree on that. More pain than pleasure = time to walk. No matter what kind of relationship it is.

[jennie-jennie]

Curious minds want to know.............Are you implying that Lauriebell's response to your post is abusive?

 

I interpret several of LB's posts to be telling me what is going on in my mind and in my life. I do find this very abusive. My exSO would do that at times, think he knew better than me how I felt or what I thought. It really gets to me when people who are not inside my head think they know what is going on there.

 

BB, have you ever stood face to face with someone who has told you he knows better than you what you are thinking? It is so abusive.

[BB07]

I interpret several of LB's posts to be telling me what is going on in my mind and in my life. I do find this very abusive. My exSO would do that at times, think he knew better than me how I felt or what I thought. It really gets to me when people who are not inside my head think they know what is going on there.

 

BB, have you ever stood face to face with someone who has told you he knows better than you what you are thinking? It is so abusive.

 

Matter of fact I have Jennie, one of my past relationships was emotionally abusive. He always thought that he knew better than me about anything and everything. His MO was control. The things I would call him can not be said here.

 

However, I don't see how discussion on a forum could = abuse. It's a discussion, not the same as someone in real life in your face.

[woinlove]

I interpret several of LB's posts to be telling me what is going on in my mind and in my life. I do find this very abusive. My exSO would do that at times, think he knew better than me how I felt or what I thought. It really gets to me when people who are not inside my head think they know what is going on there.

 

BB, have you ever stood face to face with someone who has told you he knows better than you what you are thinking? It is so abusive.

 

You mean like this kind of statement: "You know you represent exactly the kind of counselor with a prejudiced pro-marriage view which makes my WS hesitate to go to counseling."

 

I don't like it either when someone tells me "you know" and then proceeds to say something that I do not even agree with, never mind know. However, I don't think that is abusive.

[jennie-jennie]

Matter of fact I have Jennie, one of my past relationships was emotionally abusive. He always thought that he knew better than me about anything and everything. His MO was control. The things I would call him can not be said here.

 

However, I don't see how discussion on a forum could = abuse. It's a discussion, not the same as someone in real life in your face.

 

It's not a discussion when another poster is stating as a fact what is going on in my life, my relationship, my mind.

 

I don't mind discussions with different opinions, in fact that is why I post on LS. But please don't presume to know what goes on in my life, my relationship, my mind. (Not directed at you, BB.)

 

I recently read an article about how online bullying and abuse is becoming more and more of a problem as internet forums are being used by more and more people. We are humans behind the keyboards, we react to others as we would in real life, and posters use the same manipulation and control tactics as they would in real life.

Edited November 20, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

You mean like this kind of statement: "You know you represent exactly the kind of counselor with a prejudiced pro-marriage view which makes my WS hesitate to go to counseling."

 

No, that's not the kind of statement I mean, because LB has stated herself that she is pro-marriage, so I am not saying anything about what goes on in her mind, just stating that my MM and I find a pro-marriage view prejudiced.

 

I don't like it either when someone tells me "you know" and then proceeds to say something that I do not even agree with, never mind know. However, I don't think that is abusive.

 

I do. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it is a kind of emotional abuse I have been a victim of earlier, not only with my exSO but also with my narcissistic mother.

[woinlove]

No, that's not the kind of statement I mean, because LB has stated herself that she is pro-marriage, so I am not saying anything about what goes on in her mind, just stating that my MM and I find a pro-marriage view prejudiced.

 

I don't see how someone saying they are pro-marriage, means they are exactly the kind of prejudiced person that affects your WS - never mind the idea that you know they know this. I don't know what you mean by exactly that kind, or what your WS thinks is exactly that kind, so unless you can read LB's mind, how could you know that she thinks she is that kind too?

 

Really, I have little patience for this kind of dissection of words and I take it as a positive if someone is actually trying to understand what I think or mean by my words. If they get it wrong, I'll let them know.

 

Previously, you said you had a thick skin for this public forum.

[Lauriebell82]

I interpret several of LB's posts to be telling me what is going on in my mind and in my life. I do find this very abusive. My exSO would do that at times, think he knew better than me how I felt or what I thought. It really gets to me when people who are not inside my head think they know what is going on there.

 

BB, have you ever stood face to face with someone who has told you he knows better than you what you are thinking? It is so abusive.

 

You may be confusing my assessment of you with me knowing what is going on in your head. That's an addictive thinking pattern. I actually never even planned on giving you any advice at all, as you weren't the person who was posting in the thread. You actually have brought yourself into the discussion and opened yourself up for this type of discussion and feedback. If you don't want someone commenting on your A, then do not post about it, even in someone else's thread. And I have to say, you have displayed the same type of behavior in this thread that you have been attacking me and everyone else for. You seem to think you know exactly what everyone on this thread is thinking as well and we aren't getting bent out of shape about it.

 

It's fine if you think I'm wrong, I'm just telling you what I am analyzing by your posts. I'm not a mind reader or a psychic, I'm just commenting on what I see in your thinking patterns. You can agree or disagree with me, that's your right. I don't characterize that as abuse at all.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Lauriebell82

[jennie-jennie]

I don't see how someone saying they are pro-marriage, means they are exactly the kind of prejudiced person that affects your WS - never mind the idea that you know they know this. I don't know what you mean by exactly that kind, or what your WS thinks is exactly that kind, so unless you can read LB's mind, how could you know that she thinks she is that kind too?

 

Really, I have little patience for this kind of dissection of words and I take it as a positive if someone is actually trying to understand what I think or mean by my words. If they get it wrong, I'll let them know.

 

Previously, you said you had a thick skin for this public forum.

 

You are twisting things now. I was talking about what goes on in my MM's mind which he has shared with me. He does not want a counselor who has a preset pro-marriage mindset. I wasn't talking about what was going on in LB's mind, so I don't understand what you are getting at.

 

I was judging by LB's posts that my MM would not want her as a counselor. That is how you determine whether a counselor is for you or not, by what they say.

 

I do have a thick skin. That doesn't mean I am not at all affected.