American Women: Threatened by Foreign Women?

[Taramere]

Of course it won't be phrased that way. Guys who suck as providers don't start threads that say "why can't women overlook my lack of provisioning ability, all I get are fat chicks and skanks". They start threads complaining about women loving guys with money or griping about paying for dates or bitching about young women dating successful men.

 

 

Similarly, look for threads about "why won't he marry me", "where are the good guys", "we broke up and now he's married!" and so on.

 

The bottom line is, I don't see threads where American women are complaining about losing men to foreign women. I've seen them complain, in the context of threads like this, about derogatory commentary being levelled at them by men who talk about preferring foreign women. Taking offence at insulting commentary which is aimed at offending is a perfectly normal response.

 

I think it's the response Untouchable Fire is aiming for with this thread. Note that he finds my posts overly cold and unemotional. He's angry with the female posters who return his anger. He's frustrated by the female posters who respond to it calmly, because that isn't emotional enough for his liking. You can't really win with somebody like that. A woman isn't going to somehow cure his inherent dissatisfaction by being from another culture. It calls to mind the poem by Edwin Markham. "The right kind of people."

 

Gone the city, gone the day,

Yet still the story and the meaning stay:

Once where a prophet in the palm shade basked,

A traveler chanced at noon to rest his mules.

“What sort of people may they be,” he asked,

“in this proud city on the plains o’erspread?”

“Well, friend, what sort of people whence you came?”

“What sort?” the packman scowled; “why, knaves and fools!”

“You’ll find the people here the same,” the wise man said.

 

Another stranger in the dusk drew near,

And pausing, cried, “What sort of people here

in your bright city where yon towers arise?”

“Well, friend, what sort of people whence you came?”

“What sort?” the pilgrim smiled with lifted head;

“Good, true, and wise.”

“You’ll find the people here the same,”

The wise man said.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Most families I've see with au pairs have absentee fathers and frazzled mothers, working with the au pair. But I wouldn't assume that's always the case or the norm -- just what I've seen.

Visa status and living at the place make a big difference----there's even more dependency on the job. I say this as someone who's had my visa status in a foreign country depend on a job----if I'd been sexually harassed by my boss in America, I'd feel less vulnerable, than I would've there, where my apartment (not an au pair; just provided for me by my company) and visa status were dependent upon a specific job. Luckily, I wasn't harassed or put into a bad situation.

I do see issues with a boss dating his or her employee as well. In all these cases, I put the greater scorn on the person with the greater power -- the employer -- regardless of gender.

 

Harassment is a totally separate issue. There is a difference between being attracted... which is a feeling or mental state, and pressuring someone for sexual favors or treating them like a sexual object.

 

Most of the guys I've seen be blatant and horrible with sexual harassment got away with it. Perhaps because the victims were frightened. I actually turned a coworker into HR for groping a female coworker. He had done it once before with the same woman and I'd told him it was unacceptable and had asked him to apologize and never do it again. When HR investigated the woman called me a liar and so did the guy. I looked like a jerk. So... I keep my nose out of that stuff now.

 

If I'd seen threads here, started by American women and expressing anger or fear about the "higher quality" American men going for foreign women, then I'd understand your position. However, women aren't starting those threads. You are. I know there's a stigma attached to these foreign introduction agencies, and that people tend to associate them with desperate and somewhat unattractive men.

 

well, I don't think I've ever seen a woman on here comment adversely about that.

 

... I would like to point out that from what I see, women do not generally express themselves in that type of way. I would say that you are correct in what you say... it's just you are ignoring the glaring fact that American women even on this thread have blatantly and consistently applied false stereotypes to situations where they KNOW it to be false.

 

Also, have you ever considered that this is one of the very few safe places for men to vent frustration and angst?

[Untouchable_Fire]

The bottom line is, I don't see threads where American women are complaining about losing men to foreign women. I've seen them complain, in the context of threads like this, about derogatory commentary being levelled at them by men who talk about preferring foreign women. Taking offence at insulting commentary which is aimed at offending is a perfectly normal response.

 

That is not an accurate standard to use to qualify female attitudes on this site.

 

Instead, look at the number of times female posters reference "mail order bride" situations. It's fairly common.

 

I think it's the response Untouchable Fire is aiming for with this thread. Note that he finds my posts overly cold and unemotional. He's angry with the female posters who return his anger. He's frustrated by the female posters who respond to it calmly, because that isn't emotional enough for his liking. You can't really win with somebody like that. A woman isn't going to somehow cure his inherent dissatisfaction by being from another culture. It calls to mind the poem by Edwin Markham. "The right kind of people.

 

I didn't mean that as an insult. I respond to your posts because you have a calm tone which is more likely to produce a calm and deliberate response from me.

 

I would actually appreciate it if no women posted in this thread at all. My target audience is guys.

 

Personally, I could care less what most of the women on this board think. I opened up a lot after my ex cheated on me... and I'm still P.O.ed at the women who responded. Exception for D-Lish who was very kind.

[sweetjasmine]

I don't think visa statuses would make a difference.

 

Yes, they absolutely do make a difference. If you're in a situation where you get deported if you lose your job, you bet your a-- it matters.

 

Let me put it this way. Say your ex-wife had been your employer, and your legal residence in the US depended on her employing you. Do you think that situation would have given her the upper hand? Or would it be just like dating any other boss?

[sally4sara]

Yes, they absolutely do make a difference. If you're in a situation where you get deported if you lose your job, you bet your a-- it matters.

 

Let me put it this way. Say your ex-wife had been your employer, and your legal residence in the US depended on her employing you. Do you think that situation would have given her the upper hand? Or would it be just like dating any other boss?

 

I wonder about that too. I wonder how many men would feel at ease being in a new country, on a work visa, and in a relationship with their female employer. She starts getting indifferent, cold, or wants things in the relationship that puts them ill at ease. Would they THEN get just how unhealthy a set up that kind of relationship is where one has the ability to completely effect their life, livelihood, and even where they live?

 

I think that is what some of these men don't get; it just doesn't occur to them how uncomfortable it could be to be at the mercy of someone else like that or they just believe women should naturally be okay with that. And if they are not, there is something unfeminine about them. Its almost like they take for granted their autonomy to the point where they don't see they are asking someone to give that up.

[sweetjasmine]

Would they THEN get just how unhealthy a set up that kind of relationship is where one has the ability to completely effect their life, livelihood, and even where they live?

 

And "where they live" doesn't even capture the gravity of that kind of situation. It's not like you'd just have to find a new apartment in your city or even move to another state. It's flushing all the effort you put into getting into the US in the first place down the toilet, and if people have any idea how difficult it is to get into the country legally, they can appreciate how serious that is. Not to mention, if the au pair actually entered illegally or overstayed and got turned in, she'd likely be barred from re-entering the country for another 10 years.

 

I think that is what some of these men don't get; it just doesn't occur to them how uncomfortable it could be to be at the mercy of someone else like that or they just believe women should naturally be okay with that. And if they are not, there is something unfeminine about them. Its almost like they take for granted their autonomy to the point where they don't see they are asking someone to give that up.

 

I agree. I think it's a question of taking their own position for granted and not understanding what it's like to be in someone else's shoes.

[sally4sara]

And "where they live" doesn't even capture the gravity of that kind of situation. It's not like you'd just have to find a new apartment in your city or even move to another state. It's flushing all the effort you put into getting into the US in the first place down the toilet, and if people have any idea how difficult it is to get into the country legally, they can appreciate how serious that is. Not to mention, if the au pair actually entered illegally or overstayed and got turned in, she'd likely be barred from re-entering the country for another 10 years.

 

 

 

I agree. I think it's a question of taking their own position for granted and not understanding what it's like to be in someone else's shoes.

 

Well the instance isn't only seen in people who go to another country for a relationship. It can happen domestically too. I have noticed over the years that when a relationship is or turns into a LD one, typically the man expects the woman to move to where he is located. I moved for my husband after he left my hometown where we met. When he first moved, I had no plans of it; he was to move back at *some* point. But my reasons for staying ended up pointless so I chose to move.

But most of these kinds of situations I've known of ended up with the guy expecting the woman to move to him, or the relationship ended because she got a job elsewhere and he just couldn't see taking that gamble of moving for HER. I'm sure it happens, I just don't often see it go down like that as often as the reverse.

I think it comes down to the belief that they would be less manly if someone else captain the ship at any point. So it becomes a cheap shot to declare a woman unfeminine or too controlling if she doesn't let him drive the relationship in every instance. "Let me have my way or you're flawed in a deep way!"

When if letting go of the wheel to someone else is so inconceivable and uncomfortable to them, you'd think they could see what they are asking of others.

[samspade]

I think it comes down to the belief that they would be less manly if someone else captain the ship at any point. So it becomes a cheap shot to declare a woman unfeminine or too controlling if she doesn't let him drive the relationship in every instance. "Let me have my way or you're flawed in a deep way!"

When if letting go of the wheel to someone else is so inconceivable and uncomfortable to them, you'd think they could see what they are asking of others.

 

Hi Sally4Sara,

 

I see your point with this. I will admit, I would never change my life to move somewhere far away in order to be with a woman, and I usually advise men not to do so. I hesitate to say it's less "manly." But I do believe that it's a mistake to do this sort of thing (change area codes) only because of the possibility of a relationship. Personally I think there should be more to it than that - a desire to live somewhere else and start over, find a new job, etc. The potential relationship can be part of that, but if the entire decision is couched on that, the possibility for disappointment is high.

 

I do believe that a man SHOULD be captain of his ship, and if a good woman wants to ride along, so be it. That's not to say women aren't captains of their own ships, with their own decisions. But I know less about advising women what to do than men. And I believe a lot of self-interest drives these kinds of decisions. Often, for females that includes hypergamy. This is why (I think - not stating fact) you see a lot more women moving, quitting jobs, changing their lives, etc. for men rather than vice versa.

 

Unfortunately, everything I've described above extends to extreme situations - meaning, desperate, lonely, American men and desperate, poor, foreign women. I suppose you could draw a line and rank any "partnership" somewhere on it. There will always be the same two directives at play:

 

1. Men will look for ways to spread his genes, easily and frequently, and

 

2. Women will look for the best genes and the best way to raise and protect offspring.

[sweetjasmine]

Well the instance isn't only seen in people who go to another country for a relationship. It can happen domestically too. I have noticed over the years that when a relationship is or turns into a LD one, typically the man expects the woman to move to where he is located. I moved for my husband after he left my hometown where we met. When he first moved, I had no plans of it; he was to move back at *some* point. But my reasons for staying ended up pointless so I chose to move.

But most of these kinds of situations I've known of ended up with the guy expecting the woman to move to him, or the relationship ended because she got a job elsewhere and he just couldn't see taking that gamble of moving for HER. I'm sure it happens, I just don't often see it go down like that as often as the reverse.

I think it comes down to the belief that they would be less manly if someone else captain the ship at any point. So it becomes a cheap shot to declare a woman unfeminine or too controlling if she doesn't let him drive the relationship in every instance. "Let me have my way or you're flawed in a deep way!"

When if letting go of the wheel to someone else is so inconceivable and uncomfortable to them, you'd think they could see what they are asking of others.

 

Interesting. I think in each of the handful of LDRs I know of, in real life, the woman ended up moving, if that happened at all. In my case, he originally planned to move to where I was, and things changed, so we both ended up moving to my home state. We'll likely be moving again soon or within the next few years and don't know who will be moving where for what. He's probably more willing to move than I am, but it's hard to be picky these days when it comes to finding a job.

 

I think you have a point, though. I think that there are people out there who believe that letting go of the wheel to someone else is a feminine trait, and you're less of a man if you do that. I guess women are supposed to sit and smile as they let someone else dictate the course of their life, whether it's daddy or hubby.

[sally4sara]

I do believe that a man SHOULD be captain of his ship, and if a good woman wants to ride along, so be it.

 

Well its a pretty convenient thing to believe considering the gender you were born to and that it is to your benefit. How very HUMAN of you.

 

That's not to say women aren't captains of their own ships, with their own decisions.

 

Just that those decisions are not as worthwhile to support or value as any man's?

 

1. Men will look for ways to spread his genes, easily and frequently, and

 

2. Women will look for the best genes and the best way to raise and protect offspring.

 

Its almost as if you're saying a woman's genetics don't get passed of or that they have less value in the pool. Or that men don't feel a biological urge to find the best genetics. I think it is in every person, just that the social construct has run so deep for so long in perpetuating the male to be genetic steward. Its probably because we originally believed men had no role in it; that children sprang solely from women at our dawning. And that belief carried power that had to be shared once paternity was learned. As a species, we struggle at sharing power. As a result, the role of the father became so lauded in the effort to make up for their previous lack of recognition and that they can never know what it is like to have a life inside them - that feeling of your own life being there just to protect the one inside. They so wanted compensated that we all became indoctrinated to value the mother's role and her life choices to be lesser compared to the father's.

 

The result? Men try to be the mother to the women in their life because they cannot get that feeling by giving birth. Just as a child must one day stand as an individual and make their mother fret, feel their "wisdom" sometimes go ignored, maybe men only feel that when a woman refuses their rule? Too bad the chemicals that make the mother still love their head strong, grown child are not present in a man for a woman he loves.

[112233]

I would like to point out that from what I see, women do not generally express themselves in that type of way. I would say that you are correct in what you say... it's just you are ignoring the glaring fact that American women even on this thread have blatantly and consistently applied false stereotypes to situations where they KNOW it to be false.

 

Also, have you ever considered that this is one of the very few safe places for men to vent frustration and angst?

 

Exactly. What we do see is instructive though.

 

For instance, the more desirable a woman is, the less often she's accustomed to playing second fiddle in a group, and the more she hates competition that stands a chance against her. Relatively undesirable women are used to being down the pecking order. Even so, most women are not very kind to competitors. Most guys couldn't give a rats @$$ about other guys, and this is where some fundamental differences spring from.

 

In any mixed gender social group where there is mixing and pairing, a single woman will generally be keenly aware of her status in the room and of her potential rivals. Women see and critique other women as a matter of course whereas men are far simpler for the most part.

 

Now almost no one goes around obsessing over a single aspect of their life but when the situation comes up, the things that were noted are often remembered.

 

If a desirable guy shows up in this mix with a woman you can safely bet that a significant number of other women will notice her and will be working out what her strong and weak suits are. At the same time, the intolerance for competitors will come out as cutting thoughts or remarks.

 

"She's after his money"

"He's only after one thing with HER"

 

and so it goes.

 

So no, they don't say "He went with a hot foreign bride and I'm pissed off", but they WILL say "Those Thais just want green cards", "Did you know that they are trained to marry and later divorce Americans?", or "I wonder what she cost, fresh from Ukraine?" and so on.

[sally4sara]

If a desirable guy shows up in this mix with a woman you can safely bet that a significant number of other women will notice her and will be working out what her strong and weak suits are. At the same time, the intolerance for competitors will come out as cutting thoughts or remarks.

 

That is odd. the quickest way for an attractive man to become unattractive to me is for him to already have a partner. It was like that for me as a single person or even now in a relationship of my own. Happened all the time.

 

"oooh he is hot!"

"yeah but he has a GF.

"never mind then"

 

Otherwise I'd not be sicked out a bit by my female friends when they tell me some intimate detail between they and their SO. A spoken for guy might as well be a eunuch to me no matter how close to the golden ration he is.

[taiko]

Exactly. What we do see is instructive though.

 

For instance, the more desirable a woman is, the less often she's accustomed to playing second fiddle in a group, and the more she hates competition that stands a chance against her. Relatively undesirable women are used to being down the pecking order. Even so, most women are not very kind to competitors. Most guys couldn't give a rats @$$ about other guys, and this is where some fundamental differences spring from.

 

In any mixed gender social group where there is mixing and pairing, a single woman will generally be keenly aware of her status in the room and of her potential rivals. Women see and critique other women as a matter of course whereas men are far simpler for the most part.

 

Now almost no one goes around obsessing over a single aspect of their life but when the situation comes up, the things that were noted are often remembered.

 

If a desirable guy shows up in this mix with a woman you can safely bet that a significant number of other women will notice her and will be working out what her strong and weak suits are. At the same time, the intolerance for competitors will come out as cutting thoughts or remarks.

 

"She's after his money"

"He's only after one thing with HER"

 

and so it goes.

 

So no, they don't say "He went with a hot foreign bride and I'm pissed off", but they WILL say "Those Thais just want green cards", "Did you know that they are trained to marry and later divorce Americans?", or "I wonder what she cost, fresh from Ukraine?" and so on.

 

I caught that but wasn't responding at the time. It was aimed at Filipinas if my memory still serves. Well in the Philippines they do have to go to a seminar in order to immigrate giving instructions of how to get to a consulate, find lawyers etcs should the spouse or fiance turn violent, into a pimp or porno producer once she is in his homeland and away from all she knows and family to protect her. Workers going to foriegn countries on contracts have to do the same thing yet horror stories of rapes and forced temporary "conversions" to Islam come out of those who work in Asian and Middle Eastern nations. Being trained to marry and then divorce just before filing for the 10 year green card would be how the prejudiced see the seminar.

[112233]

That is odd. the quickest way for an attractive man to become unattractive to me is for him to already have a partner.

 

Meh. He can just as easily have started the pairing off process with a woman he met there. Either way the rest is still true for a lot of women a lot of the time.