Self-Respect of OW and BW

[pureinheart]

I am really sorry that you were betrayed like that, see, this is what I don't understand because on the one hand I feel very bad for helping to hurt this wife but on the other hand I start to feel like, how could she still want him?, maybe that is my jealousy talking, idk. But when I hear what you say I understand how a wife would want to stay married. It seems to me like you were strong and insisted your needs be met in order to reconcile, but maybe I'm off base about that, idk. But in any case I think your pain must have been a bazillion times worse than mine, as much as I feel like I'm in pain, and I can see how that just doesn't compare at all and why you would have much more motivation to stay.

 

Thank you spark you really helped me understand what I was trying to wrap my head around.

 

 

Mara, with others that I have seen pass through here I'd say jealousy was the driver...you on the other hand, no. You are not arrogant.

 

In my case I couldn't understand why they stayed together...then I realised that they were one in the same. They loved the drama, the chase if you will. I think he (exDM) has the best chance of healing, as he was a bit more real.

 

The Affairs that occured in my circle, which was mainly work people (work was the only life I had at times...lol). Those A's didn't last long, very short lived...the people got together, liked each other, then split with their S's...done.

 

Anyway, everyone has a different aspect/outlook/experience.

[maravilla]

Mara, with others that I have seen pass through here I'd say jealousy was the driver...you on the other hand, no. You are not arrogant.

 

In my case I couldn't understand why they stayed together...then I realised that they were one in the same. They loved the drama, the chase if you will. I think he (exDM) has the best chance of healing, as he was a bit more real.

 

The Affairs that occured in my circle, which was mainly work people (work was the only life I had at times...lol). Those A's didn't last long, very short lived...the people got together, liked each other, then split with their S's...done.

 

Anyway, everyone has a different aspect/outlook/experience.

 

Very true and there are some similarities because affairs are rampant in my profession and seem like no big deal but now I know how much they can hurt!

 

As far as liking drama, honestly I feel that MM and I were a bit alike in that regard, I was certainly attracted/addicted to the drama whereas I know his wife was like, 'what is wrong with you?, Grow up.' I think she wanted a nice simple life with him home caring about the family and he wanted to go out and party with everyone and have this intense exciting affair with me.

 

You know when I think about it I really do wish them both the best together, or separately or whatever works out the best for them, and I am just glad I'm not apart of it anymore... which I never thought I would feel, so maybe that is progress?!

[pureinheart]

Nope. Perfectly FAIR question. However, it may prove hard to grasp as you are the OW and not the BS. I don't mean to impugne your intelligence at all. What I mean is what the WS tells the BS is FAR different from is told to the OM/OW.

 

You have no idea how far off.

 

I'm a BS. What I was being told was WAY (I mean, not just a little off...think parallel dimension off) from what the OM was being told.

 

I agree. I think self-esteem plays a role - a non-trivial role. Because, being an OW is, in most cases, about accepting second place for whatever reason. And that reason will be unique in each A. You will also find they are so very similar. All A's are different - and they are ALL the same.

 

I highlighted the key concepts.

She doesn't KNOW what you know and you don't know what she does so...you either assume OR YOU TRUST THE MM/MW's word. Who has such much to gain by lying and so much to lose by telling the truth.

 

So...he LIES. He lies his azz off. To you and the BW. You have NO IDEA what the M is like. None. For any OM/OW to say they know is patently wrong. You have an interpretation of one half of the M (and a biased one at that).

 

What my now xWW was telling me (I D her 8 months after D-day ...she's still pissed at me for that) was it was because I was distant (I was), that she was lonely (she was), it was stressful (it was) and it was a mistake, and a one time thing and it was a mistake and he meant nothing and she'll never do it again...you get the idea. Minimize until the cows come home.

 

She told the OM (in emails I have) that the M was horrible, no good, very bad. I was abusive, mean, neglectful, terrible H, even worse father and, ultimately, she was convinced I was must be cheating and I rebuffed every attempt to be better. Guess what. None of that was true. Not even close.

 

The truth (as I see it): worked long hard hours to provide and we grew apart due to "life" (kids, house, et al). She also never said a word about being unhappy. We were too busy with everything else and each took the other for granted. Simple really - and not too uncommon.

 

So...given that little bit of insight...understand that what YOU hear is WAY different from what the BS hears. And you really have no idea whats going on in the M. No clue.

 

The BS stays because he/she believes what is being told. Its VERY powerful to hear things like "I am so sorry for jeopardizing our life, our home, our kids for this...he is gone and will never return." Powerful stuff. Consider the 15 years, the hopes, the tragedies, the highs and lows...it makes sense. And do you see it? Do you see the subtle difference?

 

How the WS speaks TO the BS about THEM. The life they have.

Now go read what the MM/MW says to the OW/MM. Its about the M Again isn't it? How they can't leave (the BS fault...or the kids...or whatever)...to stay until "tomorrow". They don't speak about the R or the bond that he/she has for the AP. Its not about moving forward for THEM...its about how they cannot because of the M. Subtle, yet powerful difference.

 

And yes...I filed. I gave up my new unfinished built from foundation dream house, the 911...the life...all of it. So I ALSO balk when I hear it can't be done - it can...I know, I did.

 

What kills the M isn't the A itself. Its the LYING and the broken trust and how they feed each other. This was true for me...I could and did (in time) forgive the A...but the trickle truth and the lies...the inability to trust her....I wasn't going to live like that.

 

Anyways...my thoughts on it. Hope it helps.

 

JW, after reading countless responses from you and your objectivity I really had to laugh at what I bolded...was she on LSD? Whatever it was it was not good and I would never take it.

 

I was a WS and never talked mess about the S, I never have liked to be felt "sorry" for...just understanding should I choose to open up.

 

We all have the tendancy for ornery, or not so good...although I doubt you were abusive, that sounds a bit like justification to me. You seem reasonable...

 

This is what pissed me off about my ex's. I communicated the things that were very wrong in the M IMO. They blew me off as a "nag" and then the proceded to see other people telling me I was F'ed up....ok fine. Maybe I did turn into a nag because I never received ANY validation, just mind games.

 

This is the reason I understand the WS's position...but in your case, I bet if she would have came to you crying with her deep felt feelings, you would have melted faster than butter at 100 degrees.

[pureinheart]

Very true and there are some similarities because affairs are rampant in my profession and seem like no big deal but now I know how much they can hurt!

 

As far as liking drama, honestly I feel that MM and I were a bit alike in that regard, I was certainly attracted/addicted to the drama whereas I know his wife was like, 'what is wrong with you?, Grow up.' I think she wanted a nice simple life with him home caring about the family and he wanted to go out and party with everyone and have this intense exciting affair with me.

 

You know when I think about it I really do wish them both the best together, or separately or whatever works out the best for them, and I am just glad I'm not apart of it anymore... which I never thought I would feel, so maybe that is progress?!

 

So he's addicted to excitement...I, like you wish them the best together also...although calming that insationable desire for excitement that exMM has...I'm not sure that will ever be put to rest...we can all hope though!

 

Mara, this type of personality is sometimes never satisfied. There is lack in their lives and they search high and low, but never find it, and with most of them it is right there in front of them and they can't see it and we can't make them see it...so we move on and so do others in their lives.

[pureinheart]

 

So...he LIES. He lies his azz off. To you and the BW. You have NO IDEA what the M is like. None. For any OM/OW to say they know is patently wrong. You have an interpretation of one half of the M (and a biased one at that).

 

 

I must disagree with you on this note. In my case exDM rarely talked of his M. When he did, I knew it was the truth. We worked in an industry and town where EVERYONE grew up together. I heard what his M was like from co-workers, which had been friends of mine and his for longer than dirt. BTW people volunteered this info to me, I never asked or brought it up...they did.

 

It was funny because most wanted to see us together, the ones that didn't were severely jealous, it was too weird.

 

His behavior also gave undeniable clues as to his current/past circumstances.

 

Now certainly I did not know ALL of the details (and didn't want to know them), but had a priddy good idea of what the real deal was.

[Fight4Me]

Yep, pretty much I guess. Or just whether they have thought about this issue, or what their feelings on it are.

 

And I didn't mean to limit it to OWs, certainly BSs are free to answer or anyone who has never been either, or people who have been both, or whatever. I have just been thinking about it and have wondered if others have too, but, like Pureinheart said I would never post it in Infidelity, so, that leaves here, since I am a recent OW and I pretty much only post here, and feel comfiest here. Hope I've explained who my question is aimed at (anyone and everyone) enough...

 

fBS here (fully reconciled), so I am glad to see you don't mind input from someone like me. Personally, I understand what your opening question meant, and I see you attempting to work out your own grief and loss by openly "talking" (typing) it out. It's kind of like anonymous group therapy, and I can respect an appreciate someone who is willing to ask these kinds of questions, but more importantly, really take in the answers. I've been reading your posts, and you are going to make it through this. Seriously, you will not only survive, but go onto THRIVE!

 

I guess it sort of seems like a double standard to me to say that a BS has her own reasons to suck it up and stay married, because she has a life invested with the MM and such, but that for an OW it's 'just' her heart and her emotions and her love, which, for a single OW like myself, equates to just about everything! And what about OWs who have kids with MM, or long-term OWs who have invested a lot of time and decisions and energy into the relationship? I'm not saying it's a wise decision for them to do this (just like I don't think it's a wise decision for a wife to stay just because she has made investments... if the pain is too much she should leave, just like OWs, IMO, having never BTDT of course). And I know it's not wise to get involved in As in the first place, but still, people get emotionally invested in them, and attached, and do, however foolishly, think about MM and OW as an 'us,' especially when MM is making promises and professing love... and yet all of that doesn't ever seem to be a good enough reason for OWs to stay, and we are pretty much looked down upon, yet it's a good enough reason for the wives to stay and not be looked down upon? I guess that's what I was trying to compare because I guess the part of me that is afraid to get hurt, like the part that was reading Frenchie's post, would much much rather be the OW than the BS, or the OW or BS who is able to walk away from the guy who is hurting her, no matter what investments she's put into him... I don't know if I'm making sense anywhere but in my head, LOL.

 

This is your pain talking, and I think you want/need it to be recognized as legitimate, which it is. If I may play psychologist for a moment, I would suggest that your need to somehow identify or equate yourself with your (or another) BW, somehow accomplishes that when there really is no need. Your pain is your pain and her pain is hers.

 

I do agree that this is something I want to think about but then lay aside, I guess for me it just helps me to think about it in case I am ever in that situation. I never want to be involved in infidelity again but one day I might not have a choice... only a choice as to what to do if it happens. I guess part of it is that I'm mad at myself for getting involved with something that ended up hurting me and in retrospect I should have known it would, but really I didn't for some stupid reason, so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can from the experience for future reference.

You're evaluating what happened, not just internally, but openly through an open forum. Again, working it out of your system.

 

Whatever self-respect you think you lost, you are getting it back through introspection. You're making progress, so don't give up. From one woman to another, I'm pulling for you!

[Spark1111]

Wow, this post is exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I do feel, and to some extent know based on what he told me and also in my gut, that MM lied all the time to both me and his wife. I have no idea if she threw him out or he moved out voluntarily. Nothing would surprise me.

 

I am really sorry that you were betrayed like that, see, this is what I don't understand because on the one hand I feel very bad for helping to hurt this wife but on the other hand I start to feel like, how could she still want him?, maybe that is my jealousy talking, idk. But when I hear what you say I understand how a wife would want to stay married. It seems to me like you were strong and insisted your needs be met in order to reconcile, but maybe I'm off base about that, idk. But in any case I think your pain must have been a bazillion times worse than mine, as much as I feel like I'm in pain, and I can see how that just doesn't compare at all and why you would have much more motivation to stay.

 

Thank you spark you really helped me understand what I was trying to wrap my head around.

 

 

Thank you for that kind gesture of empathy. I truly appreciate that. And I know after hearing what an ogre the BS is, it is hard to come by from an OW.

 

Look, I loved him broke, broken backed, with money, without money, depressed, and then happy, and then depressed again. I had three children with that man, and would have born more of his babies had he not worked such long hours to provide for us.

 

He could NEVER keep his hands of of me, not even during his affair.

 

There was so much more good that outweighed the bad, that I thought long and hard about what to do....and that was only when I thought he was truly remorseful and not just pretending to be to retain the status quo.

 

Like OWL said, I could have never stayed in the relationship had he (we) not worked hard to enact huge changes. Changes that involved transparency, respect, trust, and consideration.

 

It has NOT been easy. I think it is often easier to divorce, certainly had he not changed for the better.

 

But that's me.

 

I would not judge another woman, especially if children are involved, because the sacrifices a mother witll make for HER children is huge: She WILL stay in a loveless marriage if it means stability and food on the table from THEIR father for THEIR children.

 

But you are not wrong to question this.

[Susmay]

I have a feeling I'm going to come off as callous with this question, and I don't mean to, I am just genuinely wondering, and it's probably nothing I should even be concerning myself about, but, I'm like that.

 

Lately I've been feeling like I had little self-respect to stay with MM when I was unhappy with how he was treating me and how he was lying to me and stringing me along. I've dealt with the feeling by telling myself that at first I loved and trusted him (undeservedly so, but that is with hindsight and in the beginning it didn't feel that way) and that when I realized his pattern was not going to change, and I could not get over the past hurts he'd caused me, I walked away.

 

So then I think, does the wife who stays with a known continued cheater have self-respect? If I'm going to feel like I had little to none, then maybe she doesn't either, because he's been doing the same stuff to her all along. I realize that maybe she doesn't know the extent of it, and I don't know what she knows, except that I know she knows about the affair because she contacted me, I know he moved out awhile after she found out, and, according to MM she had suspicions about it continuing but he denied, until recently, when he claims he confirmed. Now, just assuming that all of this is true, or even not the recent confirmation part, because I just don't believe MM would tell her the truth based on his past pattern!, but, does she have self-respect? I think I am wondering this as a way to deal with my guilt because I have had a lot of it for helping to deceive her. So maybe I'm telling myself that we are in the same boat and I chose to walk and she chose to stay as a way to empower myself and get rid of the guilt? I don't know if that makes sense but I'm just trying to be honest and understand myself and the whole situation.

 

I have to admit that I've read posts by women who know their husband is cheating on them and to me sometimes they sound as lacking in self-respect as I was when I was too into MM to stick up for my own needs. Like, sometimes the woman seems desperate to keep the cheater and just keeps clinging on and hoping even when it's clear even to her that the guy is totally continuing to cheat because she allows it (just like OW allows it). Do you guys think that thinking this was is my brain's way of thinking we are all related and all have the same pain and shouldn't do anything to hurt each other? Or is it my way of coping with the guilt by 'looking down' on the wife? I do recognize that the wife didn't ask for it or go into it knowingly like I did. Still, I have to believe that if I were ever cheated on and he kept lying to me and I knew he was still with her, I would want to get strong enough to walk away from that relationship.

 

*Disclaimer: I want to clarify that I'm not talking about people who stay with repentant cheaters who show remorse and do all the right things to re-gain their partner's trust and forgiveness. Like Owl. I am not saying Owl has no self-respect; I think he does and that's why his method probably worked. I'm thinking he was strong enough to say, you stop this or I'm walking away, and mean it. And I'm not talking about anyone in particular on this forum because, well, this is the OW/OM forum so I almost never see posts lamenting a cheating husband etc. I'm actually talking more about different sites than LoveShack all together. Just to clarify.

 

And I realize I probably sound unempathetic or something and I'm not saying my way of thinking is the right way, I'm just trying to figure out why I'm thinking this way and if it's valid or way off base.

 

I think a woman who knowingly and willingly enters into a relationships with a man who is committed to another woman probably has self-respect issues. I also think a woman who agrees to stay in a triangle also has self-respect issues. A BW who knows nothing of the other relationship and who says on d-day that she will stay with her husband only if he ends the affair, does not fall into this category even if he continues the affair behind her back.

 

As a BW I know that I was devastated by my H's betrayal but never ever would I have stayed in that situation had the A continued to my knowledge. On the other hand an OW has been willing from the start to be in a triangle and nothing especially changes with d-day - mostly they are still willing to continue the A. To me this demonstrates an ongoing lack of self-respect.

 

Edited to add: I have now read the rest of the thread and see that what I was trying to convey was what Owl said.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Susmay

[bentnotbroken]

I must disagree with you on this note. In my case exDM rarely talked of his M. When he did, I knew it was the truth. We worked in an industry and town where EVERYONE grew up together. I heard what his M was like from co-workers, which had been friends of mine and his for longer than dirt. BTW people volunteered this info to me, I never asked or brought it up...they did.

 

It was funny because most wanted to see us together, the ones that didn't were severely jealous, it was too weird.

 

His behavior also gave undeniable clues as to his current/past circumstances.

 

Now certainly I did not know ALL of the details (and didn't want to know them), but had a priddy good idea of what the real deal was.

 

 

You still don't know what when on because those others weren't the bed or the pillow. They were on the outside looking in. They weren't privy to every detail, every nuance or every jab. They see something, but they don't see what precipitated the action they witnessed or more than likely heard about through the grapevine.

[fooled once]

The difference is the wife, the BS is married to him, she has a life built with him, a history, friends, family, kids, a house - everything they worked together for as husband and wife. Why on earth should she give it up so quickly just for some self respect? A marriage isn't about ME ME ME it's about US. The welfare of the family unit, not just what is best for ONE person.

 

An OW has a choice to stay or go, she has nothing invested in MM other than emotions and her heart, where as a BS has everything invested in her husband.

 

Sorry, but comparing this is like apples and oranges.

 

agree

 

This is probably a phase, something you need to ask and wonder about, but don't make it a huge focus . Whatever a BS's reasons are to stay married after Dday are hers, and because a BS has so much invested in her husband it's harder just to up and walk away. Sucking it up is more like it, and doing what is best for the family unit rather than low self esteem and focussing on "me" (general me).

 

agree

 

I guess it sort of seems like a double standard to me to say that a BS has her own reasons to suck it up and stay married, because she has a life invested with the MM and such, but that for an OW it's 'just' her heart and her emotions and her love, which, for a single OW like myself, equates to just about everything! And what about OWs who have kids with MM, or long-term OWs who have invested a lot of time and decisions and energy into the relationship? I'm not saying it's a wise decision for them to do this (just like I don't think it's a wise decision for a wife to stay just because she has made investments... if the pain is too much she should leave, just like OWs, IMO, having never BTDT of course). And I know it's not wise to get involved in As in the first place, but still, people get emotionally invested in them, and attached, and do, however foolishly, think about MM and OW as an 'us,' especially when MM is making promises and professing love... and yet all of that doesn't ever seem to be a good enough reason for OWs to stay, and we are pretty much looked down upon, yet it's a good enough reason for the wives to stay and not be looked down upon? I guess that's what I was trying to compare because I guess the part of me that is afraid to get hurt, like the part that was reading Frenchie's post, would much much rather be the OW than the BS, or the OW or BS who is able to walk away from the guy who is hurting her, no matter what investments she's put into him... I don't know if I'm making sense anywhere but in my head, LOL.

 

I do agree that this is something I want to think about but then lay aside, I guess for me it just helps me to think about it in case I am ever in that situation. I never want to be involved in infidelity again but one day I might not have a choice... only a choice as to what to do if it happens. I guess part of it is that I'm mad at myself for getting involved with something that ended up hurting me and in retrospect I should have known it would, but really I didn't for some stupid reason, so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can from the experience for future reference.

 

I think people like to say they "know" what they would do when faced with infidelity. Just like you said, you never thought you would be an OW. But you were.

 

A marriage it totally different than an affair. A marriage more than likely involved courting, dating, being newlyweds, building a life together, planning children, having children, being with your spouse while they birth your child, bonding as a family, more dreams of the future, raising the child(ren) together, etc. With all marriages come 'growing' pains, tension because of work/kids/finances etc. This is where communication and COMMITMENT are key. It is easy to run away from the stress and problems.

 

Affairs don't have the same events. They are secret. They are 'fun'. They are done behind closed doors. Many times, communication is restricted to Monday until Friday at 5 pm. Many times the majority of the discussing is via text or phone. There is no day in and day out daily living. People are on their "best" behavior. There are lies. There is betrayal. It is completely night and day of a marriage.

 

 

Nope. Perfectly FAIR question. However, it may prove hard to grasp as you are the OW and not the BS. I don't mean to impugne your intelligence at all. What I mean is what the WS tells the BS is FAR different from is told to the OM/OW.

 

You have no idea how far off.

 

I'm a BS. What I was being told was WAY (I mean, not just a little off...think parallel dimension off) from what the OM was being told.

 

I agree. I think self-esteem plays a role - a non-trivial role. Because, being an OW is, in most cases, about accepting second place for whatever reason. And that reason will be unique in each A. You will also find they are so very similar. All A's are different - and they are ALL the same.

 

I highlighted the key concepts.

She doesn't KNOW what you know and you don't know what she does so...you either assume OR YOU TRUST THE MM/MW's word. Who has such much to gain by lying and so much to lose by telling the truth.

 

So...he LIES. He lies his azz off. To you and the BW. You have NO IDEA what the M is like. None. For any OM/OW to say they know is patently wrong. You have an interpretation of one half of the M (and a biased one at that).

 

What my now xWW was telling me (I D her 8 months after D-day ...she's still pissed at me for that) was it was because I was distant (I was), that she was lonely (she was), it was stressful (it was) and it was a mistake, and a one time thing and it was a mistake and he meant nothing and she'll never do it again...you get the idea. Minimize until the cows come home.

 

She told the OM (in emails I have) that the M was horrible, no good, very bad. I was abusive, mean, neglectful, terrible H, even worse father and, ultimately, she was convinced I was must be cheating and I rebuffed every attempt to be better. Guess what. None of that was true. Not even close.

 

The truth (as I see it): worked long hard hours to provide and we grew apart due to "life" (kids, house, et al). She also never said a word about being unhappy. We were too busy with everything else and each took the other for granted. Simple really - and not too uncommon.

 

So...given that little bit of insight...understand that what YOU hear is WAY different from what the BS hears. And you really have no idea whats going on in the M. No clue.

 

The BS stays because he/she believes what is being told. Its VERY powerful to hear things like "I am so sorry for jeopardizing our life, our home, our kids for this...he is gone and will never return." Powerful stuff. Consider the 15 years, the hopes, the tragedies, the highs and lows...it makes sense. And do you see it? Do you see the subtle difference?

 

How the WS speaks TO the BS about THEM. The life they have.

Now go read what the MM/MW says to the OW/MM. Its about the M Again isn't it? How they can't leave (the BS fault...or the kids...or whatever)...to stay until "tomorrow". They don't speak about the R or the bond that he/she has for the AP. Its not about moving forward for THEM...its about how they cannot because of the M. Subtle, yet powerful difference.

 

And yes...I filed. I gave up my new unfinished built from foundation dream house, the 911...the life...all of it. So I ALSO balk when I hear it can't be done - it can...I know, I did.

 

What kills the M isn't the A itself. Its the LYING and the broken trust and how they feed each other. This was true for me...I could and did (in time) forgive the A...but the trickle truth and the lies...the inability to trust her....I wasn't going to live like that.

 

Anyways...my thoughts on it. Hope it helps.

 

Great post jwl. I completely agree.

 

Self esteem should not be determined by being "picked" by a cheater. Self esteem comes from within. Thankfully, it is one of those traits that can be worked on, can be improved. Someone with low esteem can always raise it. And some with high self esteem can lose it. Heck, some who have high self esteem should knock it down a few notches :laugh:

 

Mar ((hugs)) I don't think you can compare your affair feelings vs marriage feelings and what you would do versus what a spouse should do. Spouses generally have way more time, emotion and other things invested. Some really want to work on things. Some cheaters are so adept at lying that they can convince someone that grass is purple, not green. That is a 'skill' they have and need to have to engage in an affair and keep their home life going. Not a skill anyone should be proud to have, though unfortunately many are proud of it and proud of how they deceive others.

 

I know you are going through so many emotions right now; but erase the "low self esteem" one. Be proud of yourself for extracting yourself from it. Be proud that you are making THE decision to NOT allow less for yourself again! Celebrate that my friend.

[GreenEyedLady]

How many single women in R's with single men have no self-respect?

 

I don't think it has anything to do with OW or BS. I think it has to do with WOMAN.

 

Some women demand respect, period. Others are doormats. Doesn't matter if they are single or married or their spouse cheats or not.

 

Circumstances sometimes prevent swift action, but action is all that matters and in its own time.

 

We cannot see into others hearts and minds and therefore should not cast judgment upon them.

 

GEL

[maravilla]

How many single women in R's with single men have no self-respect?

 

I don't think it has anything to do with OW or BS. I think it has to do with WOMAN.

 

Some women demand respect, period. Others are doormats. Doesn't matter if they are single or married or their spouse cheats or not.

 

Circumstances sometimes prevent swift action, but action is all that matters and in its own time.

 

We cannot see into others hearts and minds and therefore should not cast judgment upon them.

 

GEL

 

I agree that lack of self-respect in a relationship is a woman (and a man -- a human) issue.

 

But to me people who are willing to put up with lies and BS from their partners have less self-respect than people who don't, at least at certain times in their lives. That's what I'm dealing with now anyway, just realizing what it meant that I put up with that and at least now I'm done.

 

Thanks everyone for all your comments. I particularly enjoy hearing from the BS's because I assumed my post would incite anger and all of you have been so thoughtful in your responses.

[OWoman]

I believe that an OW/OM who remains in a relationship with an affair partner and continuing to accept an unchanging situation...is probably not showing much self-respect.

 

I would agree.... IF the OW/OM wanted "more". If the R they had was the R they wanted (and for some OWs and OMs that is the case), then accepting an unchanging situation is not compromising their self-respect, but honoring their authenticity.

 

I believe that a BW/BH who remains in a relationship with their wayward spouse and continuing to accept an unchanging situation...is probably not showing much self-respect.

 

Similarly, some BSs stay for reasons of choice. Not necessarily "open Ms", but more "don't ask, don't tell". It's not what I would choose (AFAIK - I've not been in that situation so can't say with any degree of confidence how I would respond) but if someone is making an informed choice, having considered all factors, then their self-respect need not necessarily be impaired. Would the Queen's self respect be tarnished because Phillip had a discreet dalliance that she chose to overlook - given the alternative scandal she'd risk by booting him out? Also, many Ms are as much business / professional partnerships as they are romantic ones, and for those BSs maintaining the appearance for business or professional reasons may be preferable to the losses they'd suffer on those fronts were they to give the WS the heave-ho.

 

I also believe that anyone ends an unhealthy relationship because it won't/can't change shows self-respect.

 

I believe that anyone who fights to change the situation and successfully builds a working relationship out of that chaos shows self-respect.

 

Yes, I'd agree, but....

 

I believe that anyone who allows themselves to remain a BW/BH or an OW/OM long-term with no real sign of change in the situation is not.

 

... I'd only agree with that in those cases where they're not getting at least as much as they're "losing" through the compromise (if there is a compromise; in the OW / OM case that may not be the case). If someone is freely choosing something because what they get out of it is a lot more than they'd get without it, then that is their own rational choice and not simply "settling".

 

"Settling", long-term, in whatever form is a drain on self-respect.

[carrie999]

The difference is the wife, the BS is married to him, she has a life built with him, a history, friends, family, kids, a house - everything they worked together for as husband and wife. Why on earth should she give it up so quickly just for some self respect? A marriage isn't about ME ME ME it's about US. The welfare of the family unit, not just what is best for ONE person.

 

An OW has a choice to stay or go, she has nothing invested in MM other than emotions and her heart, where as a BS has everything invested in her husband.

 

Sorry, but comparing this is like apples and oranges.

 

If I was the BW, I would only stay if he was truly remorseful AND we had kids together. I never thought I'd end up an OW or the betraying person in a relationship. If I was already married, I probably wouldn't have cheated, either.

 

This all sounds so ridiculous and hypocritical coming from me, since I am involved with a married man and cheating on someone who is supposed to become my life partner. But cheating was always the one deal-breaker in my mind. Nobody ever cheated on me (that I'm aware of), but I always thought that the only way I'd forgive it is if he came clean and was truly sorry, and the affair was short-lived and based mainly on sex after he & I had drifted apart physically in a way that I could recognize.

 

But I couldn't forgive the kind of affair I'm having. The only thing wrong in his marriage is his affair. He's in love with me, which is a whole separate issue...or that is how I'd see it as his wife. If we had children, I'd feel compelled to try much harder to make it work for the sake of the family. But the other connections that build a life (house, family, friends, etc.) wouldn't be enough to keep me there...unless we were married for 30 years. It wouldn't be worth it to me to try to regain the trust, stop hating him, and ever imagine being intimate with someone who fell truly in love with someone else while he was with me.

 

But that's just me. Clearly, many BS's are willing to try. I respect that, but I just couldn't get past it. It's not a question of self-respect, necessarily...it's a question of how much we are willing to sacrifice for a relationship. I would be much more likely to try to work with someone who had substance abuse/financial/gambling problems, whereas other BS's may not be willing to deal with those issues. It's just my own moral framework...hence calling myself a hypocrite.

 

We're all different, and we all draw our own boundaries...

[woinlove]

If I was the BW, I would only stay if he was truly remorseful AND we had kids together. I never thought I'd end up an OW or the betraying person in a relationship. If I was already married, I probably wouldn't have cheated, either.

 

This all sounds so ridiculous and hypocritical coming from me, since I am involved with a married man and cheating on someone who is supposed to become my life partner. But cheating was always the one deal-breaker in my mind. Nobody ever cheated on me (that I'm aware of), but I always thought that the only way I'd forgive it is if he came clean and was truly sorry, and the affair was short-lived and based mainly on sex after he & I had drifted apart physically in a way that I could recognize.

 

But I couldn't forgive the kind of affair I'm having. The only thing wrong in his marriage is his affair. He's in love with me, which is a whole separate issue...or that is how I'd see it as his wife. If we had children, I'd feel compelled to try much harder to make it work for the sake of the family. But the other connections that build a life (house, family, friends, etc.) wouldn't be enough to keep me there...unless we were married for 30 years. It wouldn't be worth it to me to try to regain the trust, stop hating him, and ever imagine being intimate with someone who fell truly in love with someone else while he was with me.

 

But that's just me. Clearly, many BS's are willing to try. I respect that, but I just couldn't get past it. It's not a question of self-respect, necessarily...it's a question of how much we are willing to sacrifice for a relationship. I would be much more likely to try to work with someone who had substance abuse/financial/gambling problems, whereas other BS's may not be willing to deal with those issues. It's just my own moral framework...hence calling myself a hypocrite.

 

We're all different, and we all draw our own boundaries...

 

 

I'm not going to criticize anything you said, because you were critical enough of it. But, the idea that cheating is a deal-breaker for you and you are cheating on someone who is supposed to become your life partner with someone else who, despite him doing exactly what you say you would never tolerate, you would secretly love to become your life partner is .... well, I'm just impressed you got all the words out. Clearly too! Lots for you to think about.

[Lauriebell82]

I think it's more about low self-esteem. OW like that MM tell them they love them, try to do nice things for them..all the while the MM is doing it as a form of manipulation.

 

I have never been cheated on, but I was in a very bad relationship with a pathological liar. It was awful. I stayed with him for 2 1/2 years because I was overweight and had extremely low self esteem. I basically thought I couldn't do any better or deserved any better. Those were issues I had to work though, which I did. I now have a very good H, and I promised myself that I would never let anyone push me around again. Even if my H says something that upsets me, I let him know that I am not going to tolerate it. In short, I set boundaries for myself that I didn't before.

 

I think the one thing OW and BS have in common is a lack of boundaries more then a lack of self-respect. OW clearly have no boundaries, they let their MM push them around and do pretty much whatever he wants, they are like a little toy to MM. BS have other things to consider when dealing with their cheating H. (finances, children, ect). Personally I could NEVER stay with someone who had cheated on me. I had trouble trusting my ex who repeatedly lied, I don't know how I would have been able to deal with that if I had found out he cheated. I feel like I deserve better then someone who does not respect me or our relationship/marriage. But other BW may be willing to live with that. It all depends on what your boundaries in a relationship are.

[steelknife]

the xmm gaslighted and threw me under the bus on dday.

obviously my self respect, very low to start with, practically a goner during the affair, totally evaporated when dday happened.

the xmm and bs, are starting from scratch. thats waht he told me. he apologized, promised to stay away from me, promised not to do it again ever, and them to start all over again.

but to answer your question.. based on my opinion based on what the bs told me when she rang me. based on waht i pieced together from what he said two weeks after; (this is also somewhat therapeutic for me, so bear wd me ladies and gents)

 

she is the wife, she will remain so. she is the original. she holds the aces. the ow,me, is the, OTHER WOMAN. when she called me during dday. she said she need to fight for her kids. three kids will lose their father is she will not try to stand up for them. she said i can hav the mm if I AM serious (note: not if you and him are serious, she was obviously using him as a bait which i didnt bite) with him since we have been on with the A for quite a while, but only if i am serious since she doesnt want me to have him, then we end up separated down the road. it will be a waste of what she has to give up. after all, she said "im already old" ( she didnt mean the age, she meant i guess, my guess. is that she meant, she has lost interest in sex, or looking good for the hubby, and has focused on kids and working which i am her exact opposite bec i look good. altho i work and altho i am same age as her.)

 

then she said, she will do anything for the kids. anything, even if it means being unhappy all her life. and that she is willing to forgiv him.

 

clearly, with the bs, anger was the first reaction. but i guess somewhere along the way, she realized her shortcomigns and tried to make up for it. obviously the anger is directed more towards me than the mm bec she posted pics of them lovey dovey with hateful captions i felt was directed at me. but with that, she realized what was he missing. i dont really know anymore whats going on with them, i dont wanna know but i reckon..they must be working hard on their marriage.

 

my answer is; she will keep her family no matter what the cost. she does not lost respect for herself bec after all, the mm chose her and decided to stay with her. and the affair, the other woman, made her see things in a diff light. oh yes, there will always be the elephant in the room. but i thnk, she has used it to her advantage. she doesnt give him a chance to miss me he said. each time he seems quiet, she goes to him and ask who he is thnking.

 

i dont mean to t/j. its just that with your question. i also need to analyze it based on my situation.

 

but i dont thnk i succeeded in explaining. sorry. except for the fact that i totally lost the respect i have for myself. as for her, she knows he will always come home to her. so does the respect for herself..

Edited November 17, 2010 by steelknife

[OWoman]

OW clearly have no boundaries, they let their MM push them around and do pretty much whatever he wants, they are like a little toy to MM.

 

This is completely misinformed. As a fOW, I can attest that it was not the case at all! My boundaries are well established; my fMM (now H) certainly never pushed me around, nor even dreamed of attempting to do so - I was never a toy to him and he certainly didn't "do pretty much whatever he wanted". If he had, he would have landed up dumped in a microsecond rather than M to me!

 

Please check your facts before exercising your prejudice. Thanks.

[GreenEyedLady]

OW clearly have no boundaries, they let their MM push them around and do pretty much whatever he wants, they are like a little toy to MM.

 

I think it is clear that you are making a huge generalization that is completely untrue in the vast majority of cases.

 

I think that the scariest idea to the many posters who find adultery completely immoral is that many A's are actually RELATIONSHIPS. It is so much easier to think that an OW is a toy as opposed to a REAL threat to the M.

 

GEL

[greengoddess]

I think it is clear that you are making a huge generalization that is completely untrue in the vast majority of cases.

 

I think that the scariest idea to the many posters who find adultery completely immoral is that many A's are actually RELATIONSHIPS. It is so much easier to think that an OW is a toy as opposed to a REAL threat to the M.

 

GEL

 

LOL come on GEL an "actual relationship" is not a hidden secret. An actual relationship can proudly flaunt their love in public. Everyone knows a woman who is willing to have sex with a married man is a threat to the marriage. That's a no brainer.

[Lauriebell82]

This is completely misinformed. As a fOW, I can attest that it was not the case at all! My boundaries are well established; my fMM (now H) certainly never pushed me around, nor even dreamed of attempting to do so - I was never a toy to him and he certainly didn't "do pretty much whatever he wanted". If he had, he would have landed up dumped in a microsecond rather than M to me!

 

Please check your facts before exercising your prejudice. Thanks.

 

It's not surprising at all that you feel this way. Another aspect of being an OW is that you need to tell yourself these things in order to feel okay about continuing the A..they are rationalizations.

 

 

 

I think it is clear that you are making a huge generalization that is completely untrue in the vast majority of cases.

 

I think that the scariest idea to the many posters who find adultery completely immoral is that many A's are actually RELATIONSHIPS. It is so much easier to think that an OW is a toy as opposed to a REAL threat to the M.

 

GEL

 

In most cases an A is unhealthy, no matter WHAT it is classified as (relationship or otherwise). The thing that sticks out at me is that, why in the world would anyone want to knowingly threaten someone's M? I know most MM will play the whole "my M is over," b.s. (which is ALSO a rationalization) but, if the marriage is over then you should have divorce papers...anything else means it's clearly not over at all.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Lauriebell82

[jennie-jennie]

It's not surprising at all that you feel this way. Another aspect of being an OW is that you need to tell yourself these things in order to feel okay about continuing the A..they are rationalizations.

 

In most cases an A is unhealthy, no matter WHAT it is classified as (relationship or otherwise). The thing that sticks out at me is that, why in the world would anyone want to knowingly threaten someone's M? I know most MM will play the whole "my M is over," b.s. (which is ALSO a rationalization) but, if the marriage is over then you should have divorce papers...anything else means it's clearly not over at all.

 

The thing that sticks out to me is that if you need to ask such a question there is not much you understand about extramarital relationships or being the OW.

 

I understand that you are quite young (28?), and have never been a WS, BS or OW, so that might explain your lack of understanding.

[OWoman]

LOL come on GEL an "actual relationship" is not a hidden secret. An actual relationship can proudly flaunt their love in public. Everyone knows a woman who is willing to have sex with a married man is a threat to the marriage. That's a no brainer.

 

Our A was not a "hidden secret". The only person who did not know was his xW.

 

Many As are actual Rs, and not the inconsequential dalliances many here choose to believe they are.

[OWoman]

It's not surprising at all that you feel this way. Another aspect of being an OW is that you need to tell yourself these things in order to feel okay about continuing the A..they are rationalizations.

 

No need for rationalisations - As do not run counter to my morals, so why would I not feel OK about being an OW?

 

(And, FTR - the A has long ended, so no need to continue it.)

[GreenEyedLady]

It's not surprising at all that you feel this way. Another aspect of being an OW is that you need to tell yourself these things in order to feel okay about continuing the A..they are rationalizations.

 

 

 

 

 

In most cases an A is unhealthy, no matter WHAT it is classified as (relationship or otherwise). The thing that sticks out at me is that, why in the world would anyone want to knowingly threaten someone's M? I know most MM will play the whole "my M is over," b.s. (which is ALSO a rationalization) but, if the marriage is over then you should have divorce papers...anything else means it's clearly not over at all.

 

Well from what you've written you're completely threatened by the thought and therefore the broad generalization and zero self-reflection.

 

But to each his own I guess. Keep believing what it's safe to believe. And don't worry about others who have a different opinion than you. As your experiences change, so will how you deal with things.

 

GEL