If porn was not available........

[Errol]

Who are YOU to judge what is right and wrong about certain activities when in every aspect they remain wholly tied to that individual's personal privacy, to which you, nor anyone else, is or should be involved in?

 

This works both ways you know!

 

I seem to notice an on-going trend in these types of situations. Namely, a man will be caught by his significant other viewing pornographic images. The significant other will be shocked and taken aback by the discovery, and tend to feel insecure, unworthy and stripped of her sense of pride and accomplishment in many areas. In an attempt to rectify her feelings she will attempt to promote the situation to epidemic proportions, claiming that her partner is suffering from some sort of sinful influence, or that he is addicted to such activities.

 

I'm not a woman and I don't like pornography. I don't want my children exposed to it. I don't want to hurt my spouse and by spouse is not insecure in any way, or feels stripped of any sense of pride or accomplishment or anything else.

 

Just the phrasing that you used "be caught" implies that they were doing something that they KNOW is hurtful to someone or that they know they should not be doing. Isn't that a tacit admission of guilt? Some people, when 'caught' may feel guilty. If there is absolutly nothing wrong with porn then why the guilt? Why do it in secret? Why not in front of your mother?

 

Curiosity and enjoyment are one thing, but to continue in a behavior that hurts someone else is a whole different animal. There is no justification for deliberately hurting someone - whether the issue is pornography or infidelity, or anything else that hurts someones feelings.

[Bubbles]

First of all to Jenny,

 

I know that I would never stand any more than 3 minuets in an official debate....that's why I'm here. My point is this......Why? Why do women/men have to tolerate any kind of internet pornography if they do not want to. My next question is this, if there is nothing wrong with it then why are the police and other government agencies getting involved with the internet? Read the newspaper.

 

Why should I put up with an alcoholic s/o in my home if I do not wish to? Why should I put up with my drug addicted s/o in my home if I do not with to?

 

Why do we attenpt to teach women how to "tolerate" this behavior? Because "boys will be boys"? Bull**it! this arguement is pretty much 6 to one and half a dozen to another. If you think that certain behavior is o.k. in your home then why must I be subject to it in mine? Must I follow the masses in their decision making?

 

Secondly faux,

 

Congratulations to you (as a youngster) for learning how to use the computer properly. The computer was introduced to us as a tool in order to assist us in our working lives. I do not think that it was invented to "entertain" us as it is so now. I am at an age where computers were just being introduced into the school system as I was exiting High School. Many a valid point was brought up around my own dinner table into the "evils" of automation. I myself argued with my elders that "change" was a good thing. Never in my wildest dreams did I even imagine that this (pornography) would be available.

 

As the old saying goes....."there is a time and a place for everything" Pornography was always "discovered" outside of the home. Away from children....it was kept quiet....what is wrong with that as todays standards?

 

Men or Women in the I.T. field never learn their computer skills for the reasons of viewing pornographic material. They learn so that they can have a good job later on in life. I know many men and women in the I.T. field that only wish and pray that pornography would be removed from the internet for the reasons of computer virus' and other problems that are generated by it (such as our topic of conversation) faux, how many times have you been asked to go into a persons computer and clean it out because of all the pornography? How many times have you had to repair a computer because of pornography? So would it be safe to say that if there was no pornography available on the internet that you would not make half as much money as you do? Or not even specificatlly you - lets say a Computer repair techincian. Just in the name of not pointing the finger at you as the person who has committed this act - o.k.? cool?

 

If a man is caught viewing pornographic material and his s/o other does not appreciate then it should halt. Out of respect for your s/o. What is so wrong with that request?

 

And to respond to your "women having a male friend" I totally agree with you. I for one would never have to be asked to end my friendship with a male friend because I do not agree with having a "personal" male friend unless he is a friend to both the male and the female and both are aware of time spent alone together. There are circumstances that surround every situation.

 

My beginning this thread was just to vent......I personally know soooo many men that had absolutly NO interest what so ever in computers until.........they found pornography. Then it was their mission in life to get a computer in their home so that they too could view and participate. Please do not tell me that I am wrong about this. I know that you know men like this. What's the first thing out of most guys mouths that do not have acces to a computer? "Hey man, show me some good stuff......you know what I'm talking about......"

 

And in my own personal life? My past relationship was completely destroyed because of pornography on the internet! I had absolutly no problem with him viewing it on his own time...heck sometimes he would show me a pic or two....but what happened is this: he betrayed my trust in him not to view certain things that we put people in jail for. Do you understand what I am saying here? Curiosity is human nature, something is only as new and exciting as you make it and the excitement only lasts for so long and then you go to the next level and the next level and the next level again until you are completely out of control and then have the nerve to state to your s/o "what? I don't understand what the problem is here? You didn't have a problem with me being on the porn sites before......."

 

So what is wrong with my taking for the "under dog"? There are many, many women/men out there being ignored at home because of what is available on the internet. Is that so difficult for you to understand?

 

faux, I know it must sound as though I am picking on you in particular but I am using you to bounce my views and judgements on. If anyone else would like to jump in at any time, please do so. I am very much enjoying this thread and its responces.

 

Bubbles

[jenny]

First of all to Jenny,

 

I know that I would never stand any more than 3 minuets in an official debate....that's why I'm here. My point is this......Why? Why do women/men have to tolerate any kind of internet pornography if they do not want to. My next question is this, if there is nothing wrong with it then why are the police and other government agencies getting involved with the internet? Read the newspaper.

 

Why should I put up with an alcoholic s/o in my home if I do not wish to? Why should I put up with my drug addicted s/o in my home if I do not with to?

 

Why do we attenpt to teach women how to "tolerate" this behavior? Because "boys will be boys"? Bull**it! this arguement is pretty much 6 to one and half a dozen to another. If you think that certain behavior is o.k. in your home then why must I be subject to it in mine? Must I follow the masses in their decision making?

 

let's handle your points individually.

 

1. i would not presume to speak for all men or women who don't want to tolerate it.

 

2. the 'police,' as you homogenously state, are usually interested in abuses against intellectual property. is this what you are refering to? i would love to read this newspaper you reference. state your sources, please.

 

3. i do not seek to make you do anything in your own home. if anything, i am interested in protecting your rights to doing what you like in your own home, providing it is not illegal. which, despite the recent invasion of those vague "government agencies", pornography still is. i also would not try to force you to have you have any particular kind of s/o. i don't understand why that would be my business.

 

4. i am no longer attempting to teach women to tolerate anything. if they are hurt by it, they are hurt by it. i am personally hurt by privacy intrusion, and would not tolerate it, so i understand. you are trying to take the position that most women should be offended by it, (i think) and have not yet made your case.

 

5. boys will not be boys? this is an interesting refutation. i lost the point in the cliches here.

 

6. this is the weirdest part of this argument. i don't remember anyone stating we should force porn into bubble's home? you would not be able to date any man with a different opinion on this, but that is a far cry from forcing into your home?

 

7. who are these masses? are they aligned with the police? no, i guess they could not be, since the vague police appear to be acting against the vague masses' interests here?

 

no hard feelings here, babes, you know i like you and i would never speak against your emotions about porn, but you made this into a debate; it would just be helpful if it was a productive one.

 

i actually have changed my mind from being yay! porn because of excellent arguments made in this forum - hokey and errol both make some great points.

 

i'm still not sure what your point is. what do you hope to accomplish? i think hokey and errol helped make the position of being hurt by porn legitimate - i understand that and i have changed my own behaviour henceforth.

 

what position are you taking, exactly?

 

porn is bad for you personally? ok. don't look at it. don't let it in your home. don't date anyone who looks at it.

 

men like porn on the computer? er, ok. some men do.

 

some people became more proficient at computer use because of porn? this is an unexpected benefit of porn? weird, interesting, point, but ok.

 

computers are bad?

Many a valid point was brought up around my own dinner table into the "evils" of automation.

like what? i'm quite curious.

 

porn is a slippery slope? porn is just bad and everyone should hate it? i'm looking for a single point to cling to here.

 

if you are stating that porn should be illegal, let's get into it.

 

are you, or are you not, arguing that we should ban porn?

[corythosaurus]

If a man is caught viewing pornographic material and his s/o other does not appreciate then it should halt. Out of respect for your s/o. What is so wrong with that request?

Absolutely nothing.

 

However, I think you're more concerned with the abuse of watching pronography.

 

Anytime any act takes the place of time spent with your S/O becomes a problem. Drinking, reading, working, golfing, looking at pronography. They all aren't bad, they all have a place in society and can be beneficial in relationships.

 

The problems arise when the act takes control.

 

A person could write on here that their life was totally destroyed bacuase of work. "He worked all the time, never had time for me, lied to me about when he would be home, missed the children's soccer games and plays. Never had time for me, it was about the job, job, job."

 

Or because of alcohol. "He drank all the time. I didn't like who he became when he drank. He would tell me he'd quit, but then I would catch him. Sure he'd apologize and swear he'd never do it again. But, he'd always go back to it."

 

It's not the vice. It's the addict.

 

We don't want to outlaw beer because people get drunk. We don't want to outlaw gambling because people lose everything.

[jenny]

look, i hate maps. they make me really mad. whenever my man looks at them, i'm worried that he does not find our town good enough for him. they make me insecure - those big cities have huge pointy buildings and red lights, we live in just a nice quirky sweet town.

 

so, when he brings cartography into our home, i get furious. i trash the maps, and i root around to find the stored maps. no maps in my house! everyone has things they get mad about - this is mine.

 

no problems so far.

 

but, say:

 

i hate maps and everyone else should too. no one even ordered maps until it became to easy to do so! i am going to stop map-mailery and inform all of the evils of maps! maps bad! maps bad!

 

i will expect some protest from those who think maps are neutral: maps don't *cause* wanderlust - and from those who may not have maps of their own but don't really care if people do.

[Fedup&givingup]

Like I've posted about this already...you only see the men defending the pornography here. I agree that it is an addiction, and it's counter productive and can be destructive to a relationship. If any woman has objected to their spouse or s/o viewing porn, they just find a way to hide it. The same thing happens with substance abuse. They are called "closet drinkers/druggers" or whatever. I'm sick and tired of the pornography myself.

 

As for the comment about porn being kept from children online...guess again. Like a computer button really knows that you are over the age of 18. Most sites require a credit card, but there are LOTS of them that do not. I know because my husband has enough porn for us to make a small fortune off of it that he got free.

 

The thing I don't understand, is if all these men get so turned on by all this porn and the porn acts as batteries, how come more women aren't getting fulfilled?

[End of my rope]

[font=times new roman][/font][color=darkred][/color]Have you not seen all the hundreds of free "gallaries" out there? You don't have to have a credit card, check book, or any way what so ever to pay to view them. They have hundreds upon hundreds of links to sites with "free preview". How do I know? Because that's how my fiance views the **** online. He doesn't dare go to a pay site but then again, why should he? There are so many free gallaries. And there's yahoo groups, and msn groups, and aol groups...I could go on and on. All you have to do to see porn on those sites is lie and say you're of a legal age and *BOOM*, you can view pics of women and men who have posted themselves or their s/o online.

 

I think for some people it does become an addiction that's no diffrent than drugs. Yes, men have had access to porn, in some form or another, for years. I'll agree with that. But never, until the internet became widely used, did men have access to the massive amounts of porn, cams, and "find a sex friend" websites. It can be very detramental to the relationship they're in. When it affects their day to day lives it becomes a problem, when they spend more time looking for porn online than with the person they love or their kids...it's a problem. Men get defensive about it because they have it in their heads that it's okay to look as long as you don't touch. Personally, I want a man that is committed to me mind, body, and soul. As far as I'm concerned, when he looks at porn it's the same as cheating physically because if it happens in your head... it might as well have happened...

[Fedup&givingup]

Right, End Of My Rope. The only thing I disagree with what you said is that the men feel it's OK for them to do. I think they know it's wrong. They try to justify it.

 

I found all these virtual sex videos my husband had downloaded and copied onto cd's...I asked him if he had caught ME with all that, how would HE feel. Pretty rejected and worthless. He didn't like it a bit. He said he will throw all of it out. I simply said, "Why do that? You'll just get more." LOL

 

Simply put, it's out there, it's rampant, it's a problem, and it's not right, and they KNOW it. If the shoe were on the other foot, and there was a plethera of pornography available for women, the men would be on here complaining about it because they would feel what we are feeling.

[End of my rope]

[color=darkred][/color]

I have a comment on the "boys will be boys" thing...yes that's correct, they will be. They'll get in fights and get dirty and try to shave cats. We aren't talking about boys here. We are talking about grown men who have responsiblities to themselves, their s/o, and their children. If they want porn let them go to an Adult bookstore and get it like generations past. They like being annonoumous online. They like that they can access pictures and movies without anyone knowing it's them. They don't have to worry about if they stop at the local "PLEASURES" store that the minister of their church, or their kid's principal will see them. Men should be Men...not boys....

[dyermaker]

(Bubbles,) The argument that the government should do something about porn is making my fingers burn, are you going to indulge in jenny's thread?

[jenny]

ok. i respect your individual experiences with the hurtfulness of pornography. i'm sorry that you have been hurt.

 

this does not mean that pornography hurts all couples or families. your experience, while totally valid, does not indicate anything innate about pornography itself.

 

further, men can be men even if they view pornography online; this sole action does not disprove the status of the larger catergory. i think 'boys will be boys' is a reductive and prejudicial summation of the biological argument about visual stimulation; people should be more careful with it. i don't know enough about biology to either argue it or against it; i think it's important to recognize one's limitations.

 

finally, pretending that viewing pornography is emasculating is an excellent rhetorical tactic, but it is not a valid argument.

 

cheers!

[End of my rope]

 

finally, pretending that viewing pornography is emasculating is an excellent rhetorical tactic, but it is not a valid argument.

 

 

[color=darkred][/color]

I am not using the idea that viewing porn is emasculating. I am saying, now read closely, that for A LOT of men and their loved ones, it is a problem. One not to be associated with the concept of "boys will be boys".

 

Men look at porn, most I know feel in some way it's like a birth right. WHEN IT INTERFERES WITH THEIR DAILY FUNCTIONS AND THE RELATIONSHIPS THEY HAVE WITH FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS IT IS A PROBLEM. I point to the internet because that's where they can annonomously access hundres of pictures and videos every day. I still say if they want porn, let them go to the bookstore and buy it just like their daddies did.

 

I don't think the goverment should control the internet or what's accessed through it. I believe in free will. But if someone I know is ruining their lives because of crack I'm going to say something. Likewise, if someone I know is ruining their lives because of online porn addiction, then I'm going to say something. When they have porn mags and videos they can easily get tired of them. But online they can look at diffrrent ones every day...and for free even!

 

For those of you who say it's just some "insecure" women who find it offensive...you need a reality check. A lot of men and women are offended by it. My fiance is an internet porn addict and refuses to admit it or seek help. I am secure about myself. I know who I am and I how wonderful I can be...it doesn't make me insecure that he looks at porn. It interferes with our life that he can't pry himself away from the monitor to have a life!

[jenny]

you stated:

 

Men should be Men...not boys....

as the conclusion of this line of reasoning:

 

We are talking about grown men who have responsiblities to themselves, their s/o, and their children. If they want porn let them go to an Adult bookstore and get it like generations past.

 

suggesting that seeking porn anonymously over the internet would somehow reduce 'man' status back into 'boy' status, thus reducing masculinity, hence my use of the term 'emasculation'. the implicit rhetorical strategy of your argument was to suggest that men would be lesser men if they choose to look at internet pornography, and that's a purely subjective assessment.

 

end of my rope, please don't take this personally. you have a great emotional point, but it is not an intellectual point. i'm not arguing your feelings, and i only jumped in when it was declared that this could stand as a valid argument overall.

 

i hope bubbles will state her case over in a thread where it is more appropriate. when she does so i will happily leave here, so this one can be a straightforward 'complain about porn' thread.

[dyermaker]

Every porn thread starts off with the intention of not becoming just another porn thread.

[Darkangelism]

Not all men are addicted to porn. Just because you are hurt by porn doesnt mean you take it away from everybody.

[moimeme]

WHEN IT INTERFERES WITH THEIR DAILY FUNCTIONS AND THE RELATIONSHIPS THEY HAVE WITH FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS IT IS A PROBLEM.

 

Then the 'Government' better get busy and abolish all of the following:

 

work

sports teams

individual sports

TV

the entire Internet

alcohol

gambling

bridge

eating

all hobbies

religion (all of them)

politics

Government

 

In fact, better nuke the whole country.

 

My point: that some people abuse something does not make the thing which is abused at fault. That it bothers anyone that someone they know abused something does not give them the right to demand that the thing which is abused ought to be abolished. The problem lies with the people. I suggest anyone who has trouble making this distinction devote their considerable energy to donate money to mental health programs and research which will eventually solve the problem of addictions.

[clia]

My next question is this, if there is nothing wrong with it then why are the police and other government agencies getting involved with the internet? Read the newspaper.

 

I, too, am dying to hear some support for this.

 

Does the government regulate the Internet? Yes. Areas such as child porn, gambling, identity theft, hacking, terrorism, intellectual property, etc., etc., etc. There is a huge problem in adapting real life crimes to the digital world.

 

However, porn is not illegal. You can go to your local drugstore and buy Hustler if you choose. Or you can log onto the Internet and view it there. Or you can go to the video store and rent a video. Or you can turn on the Playboy channel through your cable TV. Or you can rent a movie through pay per view.

[Emeraude]

Most men are pigs, and fools!

[Bubbles]

Well, Good morning everyone!

 

What a good read. All the posts are amazing.

 

Jenny, only until the day that you personnally experience the humiliation of pornography in your home will you begin to understand. You use very large words that quite honestly I do not understand. I wish I did, then maybe I could debate with you. In the meantime, your post about "maps" was nothing but patronizing me. Thank you for that, I certainly appreciate you belittling my "View". That sure encourages me to post again!

 

dyermaker, you debate with jenny.....you seem up to the challenge - you are very intellectual, I am just a simple girl.

 

My post here was simply to make a statement. Here it is again, I am certain that half of the men out there in the world had no idea or even wanted to know how to work a computer until free pornography was available.

 

Is that such a difficult statement? I see through the thread that quite a few women have agreed with me. So that means that I am NOT WRONG. That is my view on things......take it or leave it.

 

I did not know that I had to be an "intellect" to post here......maybe I should read through the "mission statement" for Loveshack again. I thought it was for all people to post and receive advice or support.

 

I'll tell you something, it will be a long time before I ever post anything againg. I'll just keep reading and keep my fingers quiet.

 

Bubbles

[EnigmaXOXO]

Bubbles,

 

I sincerely hope you do not stop expressing your views. I've enjoyed all your posts and would really miss the exchange of opinions and ideas you often present.

 

I'm not sure if this particular documentary series airs in your country, but it is one my partner and I really enjoy watching. It's called "wired for sex" and lends some validation to some of the points you have made regarding the internet and the porn industry... as well as the impact it has made on contemporary society.

 

http://www.techtv.com/wiredforsex/story/0,24330,3424883,00.html

 

I think if you read through some of the articles presented, you'll find it quite fascinating!

[jenny]

bubbles,

 

my taking you on is a sign of respect. i've mentioned a number of times that i don't want to argue with your feelings. i was responding to this in particular:

 

I think that I have made an excellent point here this afternoon. No-one seems capable of arguing with me.

 

so, i gave you an argument. i think you have a lot of valid points, and i was just pushing them for clarity. i understand how you could see the map thing as patronizing, and for that i'm sorry. it honestly just struck me as a pleasing analogy.

 

but i understand now you did not, in fact, want an argument, and that's cool. i hope you don't stop posting because of one thread and one poster you don't like - so, we have different styles. who cares what i said in this thread? you have a lot of valuable insights to share with people, and this is no reason to quit. PM if you want to talk about this further.

 

no hard feelings on this end whatsoever. i like you and your posts a great deal, regardless of what you may think of me; where i am from rigourous debate is a sign of kinship.

 

cheers!

[Errol]

Owe! Something struck me as I read through all these posts.

 

Talking about how immediately available porn is because of the Internet and suggesting that men go back to purchasing porn at designated stores, etc.

 

Doesn't that assume that men have no self control? [color=darkblue] "If its available on the internet then men are going to look"[/color] makes it sound like men have no control over their actions. Boys will be boys --- boys often fall victim to their impulses and act without thinking things through. Men should have more self-control and the ability to rationalize their actions. For anyone to say that woment must accept massive amounts and types of porn in their homes simply because it is so readily available is claiming that men have no self control.

 

To say that men are just naturally curious is a fine argument -- but once the curiosity is satisfied what then? Everything is in the same place on every woman - it's not like we are going to suddenly find a woman with a vagina where her ear should be! Why keep looking? It's not to satisfy curiosity!

 

As for the government getting involved. No thank you. The government has too much control over my life as it is and I don't want what I do in the privacy of my home to be anyone's business but mine. With the exception of those breaking the law. I don't want a crack house next door or a pedophile either. Monitoring those who view or attempt to view child pornography is one thing - because it could be a danger to a child. But what if BDSM is outlawed? There are some who practice that - if two consenting ADULTS are participating they should not be hauled off to jail because one has whip marks on her/him.

 

I had to go through all sorts of hoops to set up parental controls on our internet and our cable and there were times that it became such a hassle that I got really pissed and wished that instead of me jumping through hoops, those who want the stuff should have to jump through hoops to get it. I can kind of see a point here -- if there were NO porn images available on the Internet as advertisements/teasers then those who did wish to have access would have to jump through hoops and pay for it before seeing one bare breast or one butt cheek, and only liscensed websites/merchants of porn could sell it over the internet there would not be a need for all the parental controls. I would like that better, but I understand why it is not that way: 1) there is not enough money in it that way, because the teaser shots and videos is what gets more people to actually pay for it; 2) people could (would and have) sue over their civil liberties and freedoms of expression.

[End of my rope]

Originally posted by moimeme

WHEN IT INTERFERES WITH THEIR DAILY FUNCTIONS AND THE RELATIONSHIPS THEY HAVE WITH FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS IT IS A PROBLEM.

 

Then the 'Government' better get busy and abolish all of the following:

 

Then you go on to list several things that people do on a daily basis.

 

First of all, I don't believe it's the goverments place to abolish porn, nor do I believe that is should be abolished at all. I'm merely saying that since the internet has become so widely used that porn addiction has became in issue for people. Nobody out there can deny that for SOME people it's a problem. Some people can drink and not become alchoholics and lead normal lives. Some people can experiment with drugs in their youth and not become junkies. Some people can look at porn and not become obcessed or "addicted". WHEN IT INTERFERES WITH THEIR DAILY FUNCTIONS AND THE RELATIONSHIPS THEY HAVE WITH FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS IT IS A PROBLEM. WHEN IT TAKES THEM AWAY FROM THIER RESPONSIBILITIES IT IS A PROBLEM. WHEN ALL THE DO FROM THE TIME THEY GET UP IS LOOK AT PORN ONLINE...IT IS A PROBLEM.

[Darkangelism]

Yes but this thread is about the abolition of internet porn

[End of my rope]

Actually this thread started with the concept that if it wasn't for porn most men wouldn't know how to use a computer...