Refusal-Long time refused & considering leaving...

[KathyM]

No no no, you did not ended up with such a spouse. You wanted such a spouse! The best proof is that you have spoken in a negative way about girlfriends who had sex early. My diagnosis: you suffer from the Madonna-whore complex. Either a woman is pure and then she can't have passionate, natural, spontaneous sex. Or she can and then you think less of her .

That's rediculous, he didn't hope for or want his wife to reject him after marriage. He wanted the woman he married to be someone who shared his faith and didn't give herself to every Tom, Dick and Harry that she dated. Most Christian men do value purity in a woman, and want that in a wife. That doesn't mean they want her to refuse her husband after marriage. Men expect that, once married, their wife will enjoy sex with their husband.

[frozensprouts]

Floridaman,

am I right in my understanding that both you and your wife are christians? Do you think that could be a contributing factor here? ( maybe she was brought up thinking that sex was "bad" or only for procreation)?

 

I'm not christian myself, and my knowledge of the bible is admittedly limited, but isn't there some verses in there called "song of solomon" that deal with love and sex and how it's okay for a man and his wife to desire and a=want to have sex with each other?

 

I don't know if it would help or not ( maybe if her issue is purely psychological in origin) but do you have a pastor, minister or whomever, that may be able to help your wife see that having sex with you and enjoying it can be completely in tune with her beliefs and that she's not "bad" for doing so?

( don't know if this will help or not, but wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion)

[Floridaman]

Floridaman,

am I right in my understanding that both you and your wife are christians? Do you think that could be a contributing factor here? ( maybe she was brought up thinking that sex was "bad" or only for procreation)?

 

I'm not christian myself, and my knowledge of the bible is admittedly limited, but isn't there some verses in there called "song of solomon" that deal with love and sex and how it's okay for a man and his wife to desire and a=want to have sex with each other?

 

I don't know if it would help or not ( maybe if her issue is purely psychological in origin) but do you have a pastor, minister or whomever, that may be able to help your wife see that having sex with you and enjoying it can be completely in tune with her beliefs and that she's not "bad" for doing so?

( don't know if this will help or not, but wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion)

Frozen,

Plan to answer this later when have time.

[The Blue Knight]

The Bible never condemns sex. Sex is considered God's gift to the marriage. It condemns sexual sin (adultery, fornication, homosexuality). My wife and I have been Christians for years and we've never had sexual hangups that prohibit pleasing each other by any method that the other person is completely comfortable with. But then again, Floridaman's wife may have been taught something entirely different.

 

Floridaman,

am I right in my understanding that both you and your wife are christians? Do you think that could be a contributing factor here? ( maybe she was brought up thinking that sex was "bad" or only for procreation)?

 

I'm not christian myself, and my knowledge of the bible is admittedly limited, but isn't there some verses in there called "song of solomon" that deal with love and sex and how it's okay for a man and his wife to desire and a=want to have sex with each other?

 

I don't know if it would help or not ( maybe if her issue is purely psychological in origin) but do you have a pastor, minister or whomever, that may be able to help your wife see that having sex with you and enjoying it can be completely in tune with her beliefs and that she's not "bad" for doing so?

( don't know if this will help or not, but wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion)

[beenburned]

So, how did the wife's gyno visit go? Any physical reasons she should be in pain from intercourse?

 

I personally know lots of women that are on female hormones( after menopause), so they have a happy fulfilling sex life with H.

[Floridaman]

We are at an ocean resort this weekend, so wish me well....

[Floridaman]

No luck since last post, late February. Couldn't get her in the mood that weekend nor since.

 

This weekend, she appeared to be in an amorous mood, so thought I'd get lucky...

As I sensed, she WAS receptive and we ML.

 

Was a romantic day all around. We moved from cuddling on the couch to cuddling in bed.

When the time was right, "explored" her northern areas and later moved to southern regions...

 

Methinks this may relate to me telling her we need to see a marriage counselor, how there's distance between us and I keep getting criticized when I try to make moves on her.

Yes, my hands are all-over her but that's expected when I return from a week away.

 

Was out of town last week so Fri. night, sat next to her on the couch and tried to hug and hold her, and kiss her.

She tried to repel me and claimed I was too "all over her."

 

Sat. tried the same thing and got the same reaction.

 

So Sat. afternoon, flat out told her we need to see a counselor as I'm sexually unsatisfied and need her physically.

 

Didn't threaten to leave, but said what is happening here isn't normal.

Things need to change.

 

Told her what I'm doing is not unusual and that Christian men want to hold and cuddle and ML to their spouses, especially after they've been away from home.

She shouldn't be afraid of me, scared of sex and how LM is a part of a couple's lives.

Told her how much I love her, want her in my life, want to get closer to her in all ways, especially emotionally, and want to ML with her, the love of my life.

 

Told her sex is natural, created by God for pleasure and not only for procreation. We don't have children.

 

Told her we should talk to our pastor to see if he can counsel us or ask if he knows a good Christian marriage counselor.

She refused and even said she wouldn't go to church with me, fearing I'd ask the minister IN PRIVATE for some recommendations.

Methinks she doesn't want anyone at the church knowing about our problems.

 

So told her I'd do a web search and try to find some counselors in our area.

Found some and read their web pages aloud to her.

Told her I plan to call and set-up a meeting.

 

She got mad and said it wasn't all her. Of course, not, I'm not perfect, but still...

 

We cuddled that night (Sat.) and fell asleep in each other's arms.

 

Told her then and before how I want a regular sex life again but weekends would be fine for now, with weekends being the focus as it's hard for her on work nights.

Of course, if she's not feeling well, etc., one weekend we can skip it but said I expect regular LM and don't want to be "judged" by her as I'm not perfect or "good enough" for her and never will be.

 

Said she can also pleasure me in other ways too. If she doesn't feel like vaginal sex, she could bring me to completion with her hands. She's hardly ever touched me down there, but did this weekend ( a little with her fingers ) and some a couple of months ago.

 

For those new to this thread, this is first marriage for both.

 

This month marks the 20th anniv. of the first we made love, as I so (in my usual loveable and suggestive way) pointed out.

 

****

 

Sunday, in the morning, seemed open to ML that afternoon.

She stated we might be able to do that.

She got a little ill after lunch after church (no, I didn't ask anyone about counseling) so thought the LM may not occur, but was patient in holding her and cuddling on the couch.

Suggested we move to the MBR and so was successful.

 

Wanted to provide this update.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

Floridaman,

am I right in my understanding that both you and your wife are christians? Do you think that could be a contributing factor here? ( maybe she was brought up thinking that sex was "bad" or only for procreation)?

 

I'm not christian myself, and my knowledge of the bible is admittedly limited, but isn't there some verses in there called "song of solomon" that deal with love and sex and how it's okay for a man and his wife to desire and a=want to have sex with each other?

 

I don't know if it would help or not ( maybe if her issue is purely psychological in origin) but do you have a pastor, minister or whomever, that may be able to help your wife see that having sex with you and enjoying it can be completely in tune with her beliefs and that she's not "bad" for doing so?

( don't know if this will help or not, but wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion)

 

Frozen,

Plan to answer this later when have time.

 

Frozen Sprouts,

Sorry I didn't get to this question earlier.

 

Yes, we both are Christians, though we weren't so strong in our faith when we met and had sex early on ( 3-4 mos. into our dating ).

 

Reading some things and gaining a better understanding of human sexuality, I see that "3-4 mos." wasn't too soon at all and completely expected among loving couples, Christian or not.

 

The reason I waited to make some sexual moves on her, I'd had some sex with a couple of women much too early. Found getting sexual too soon can often ruin what could be a good relationship.

At 30, thought I was "getting old" and really wanted a relationship more than anything, including sex.

 

We didn't really talk about religion until after we started having sex and when I went to her church.

It was important to me, but not as important as finding someone to love, which I felt "deprived" in my late 20s.

 

Do you think that could be a contributing factor here? ( maybe she was brought up thinking that sex was "bad" or only for procreation)?

Yes, she comes from a Catholic background.

Am thinking she grew up with some negative, anti-sex views.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if it would help or not ( maybe if her issue is purely psychological in origin) but do you have a pastor, minister or whomever, that may be able to help your wife see that having sex with you and enjoying it can be completely in tune with her beliefs and that she's not "bad" for doing so?

( don't know if this will help or not, but wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion)

That is a good suggestion, Frozen, and something others have suggested.

Have been reluctant to suggest seeing a counseler bec. I feared she'd react badly, like if I was to say I wanted to leave her.

However, reading what many have recommended and deciding to "man up" some, decided it's time to ask her to see a counselor.

We haven't made an appointment yet bec. she made love with me the other day, likely a result of my "threat."

If she keeps "stringing me along," giving me sex only once in a while to keep my pacified, am going to suggest seeing a counselor

(detailed in the most recent post).

 

 

 

my knowledge of the bible is admittedly limited, but isn't there some verses in there called "song of solomon" that deal with love and sex and how it's okay for a man and his wife to desire and a=want to have sex with each other?

Yes... the language there is very forward, like "my lover's garden" (oral) and some other things, that imply there's something divine or at least not sinful to enjoy sexual relations.

 

Have showed her those verses as well as one of the Apostle Paul's letters, 1 Corinthians, which states a spouse shouldn't "defraud' the other of sexual relations unless for a short period of time and something both agree upon.

Was never consulted and never agreed to a sexless marriage.

Yes, I feel I've been "defrauded" for almost a decade and told her so the other day. Not totally sexless, but very occasional sex, and much less than I've wanted.

 

To all who've posted in this thread, thank you.

I may not respond to every post and unfortunately, may not try to implement all that's recommended, but eventually, I do adopt some of the recommendations.

[KathyM]

If your wife has been to the doctor and he finds no physical reason for the pain, then I would suggest you go to a counselor who specifically deals with sexual dysfunction. People with the church are not trained in treating these types of disorders. If there is no physical reason for the pain, then it is purely psychological and needs to be addressed. Even if your wife is making some effort now, there is still a problem there. I just got done studying about sexual disorders in a class I'm taking. Here are some possible diagnoses:

 

Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder: Persistent or recurrent deficiency of sexual fantasies and desire for sexual activity.

 

Sexual Aversion Disorder: Persistent or recurrent extreme aversion to, and avoidance off, all or almost all genital sexual contact with a sexual partner.

 

Dyspareunia: Recurrent or persistent genital pain associated with sexual intercourse, not caused by a medical condition.

 

Sounds to me like one or more of the above dysfunctions are present, and need to be worked out through counseling. If your wife won't go with you to counseling, then go yourself and see what the counselor recommends that you do to help your wife to overcome this.

[Stellar Wench]

I'm familiar with women who have been molested by family members. They feel a lot of shame surrounding sex, and they were also turned off by their SO's sexual advances because it reminds them of the desperation and powerlessness they felt. They feel that the SO is forcing themselves on them, just as the abuser did.

 

Yes, the recent lovemaking was to get you to forget about counseling. There is probably something that she doesn't want to face, or doesn't want you to find out about. There's a problem somewhere that you two can't solve on your own.

 

Counseling should no longer be an option, it should be a requirement. Please stop trying to fix this on your own. You may inadvertently contribute to the problem.

Also, stop demanding sex. Demand that she get counseling. IC first. MC later if needed. There are things that she will need to face on her own. In the beginning, she will be too afraid to discuss it with you there.

 

Know that this may take years. It sounds like you already have years invested.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Stellar Wench
Added a word and a thought.

[2sunny]

I do think she may have some abuse in her past that is affecting her ability to enjoy sex as it should be enjoyed.

 

If she won't do counseling - you don't have much to work with...accept your life with her as very little sex.

 

It's very selfish of her to not want to get help.

[giotto]

 

It's very selfish of her to not want to get help.

 

 

When we were having sexual problems (libido mismatch - and it's still there), the way my wife decided to help was to suggest a sexless marriage, because "I know lots of people who don't have sex anymore after many years of marriage"...

[Stellar Wench]

Floridaman, How do you feel about the possibility of your wife having a psychosexual problem? You have posted on other threads since my post and didn't bother to respond to me. Are you in denial or do you think my advice inapplicable to you? Keep in mind that if asked about sexual trauma, your wife will probably deny it. It must hurt your ego to learn that this is not something that you help fix, but you can help by insisting that she enter counseling immediately.

[Floridaman]

You have posted on other threads since my post and didn't bother to respond to me.

 

Are you in denial or do you think my advice inapplicable to you?

 

 

 

Stellar,

I saw your post and appreciate your contribution here.

No, I wasn't ignoring your points nor ignore others, if I don't respond very fast.

I do in time, though, respond, like I did a few posts above to FrozenSprout's inquiry if me and my spouse are Christians.

 

Only posted in another thread, and one similar to this one:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/279999-married-folks-how-often-do-you-have-sex-6.html

 

Everyone's contributions here are read and valued.

 

 

Keep in mind that if asked about sexual trauma, your wife will probably deny it.

 

It must hurt your ego to learn that this is not something that you help fix, but you can help by insisting that she enter counseling immediately.

Am planning to ask for both of us to see a counselor.

However, hadn't thought of having her visit a counselor independently, as she may have some issues of her own.

That's a good suggestion and one I will consider.

 

Floridaman, How do you feel about the possibility of your wife having a psychosexual problem?

That's very likely.

KathyM posted some theories on that.

Am not going to bring up those maladies, bec. she might ask where I read that.

Am hoping, however, a counselor would bring that out of her.

 

 

It must hurt your ego to learn that this is not something that you help fix,

 

 

It hurts my self-confidence that she doesn't want me sexually...

 

I can't live like this, without sexual love and affection.

However, I made a promise to her at the altar, and don't really want to leave.

[giotto]

but you can help by insisting that she enter counseling immediately.

 

sure, but therapy might take years... my wife was supposed to go to therapy to fix herself, so she could stop taking the drugs that are making her libido close to zero. Guess what? She never did. If you know your wife is not having sex with you because of a medical condition, do you leave? Do you insist? Yes, but after a while, you give up and live in limbo...

[Floridaman]

 

I'm familiar with women who have been molested by family members. They feel a lot of shame surrounding sex, and they were also turned off by their SO's sexual advances because it reminds them of the desperation and powerlessness they felt. They feel that the SO is forcing themselves on them, just as the abuser did.

Stellar,

Asked her about that earlier. She said she wasn't abused.

She did have one previous sexual partner, a former fiance she started having sex with about a year after they started dating (in HS and college) before they got engaged.

Had been under the impression they ML after getting engaged, but she clarified that for me recently.

 

No, that didn't bother me she had another partner.

That was years before we met.

 

Will ask her again about abuse (maybe her EX mistreated her).

 

 

 

Yes, the recent lovemaking was to get you to forget about counseling. There is probably something that she doesn't want to face, or doesn't want you to find out about. There's a problem somewhere that you two can't solve on your own.

 

Counseling should no longer be an option, it should be a requirement. Please stop trying to fix this on your own. You may inadvertently contribute to the problem.

 

Those are valid points.

Actually, the other night I asked her why she ML to me, hoping she'd say something like she loves me and knew I needed her sexually.

Instead, she told me she ML bec. she didn't want me to get mad and throw a fit or raise a scene.

Told her I would have been disappointed, but wouldn't have lost my temper.

 

 

Also, stop demanding sex. Demand that she get counseling. IC first. MC later if needed. There are things that she will need to face on her own. In the beginning, she will be too afraid to discuss it with you there.

 

Know that this may take years. It sounds like you already have years invested.

 

Wasn't aware of the IC abbreviation. Guess it's "independent counseling."

That is a good idea.

 

You have posted on other threads since my post and didn't bother to respond to me. Are you in denial or do you think my advice inapplicable to you?

 

Another reason I don't always respond immediately, don't have the time.

If she's there next to me in the living room on her laptop and sees me furiously typing, she may ask what I'm doing....

Don't wanna lie.

 

One other reason I don't always respond:

Don't want to fill-up the thread with only my posts.

May sound funny as this thread is about me, but I don't want others to think it's ONLY about me and therefore try not to post too much....

 

Good that someone else posted following my post, so breaks-up my posts/rants.

 

I like to write so writing is easy for me. Apologize for writing "too much" and go into too many details or TMI.

Again, the purpose wasn't to titillate or be highly graphic, though I admit I have sexual fantasies and that tends to spill-out into my posts....

Edited March 14, 2012 by Floridaman

[xxoo]

Consider this:

 

Decide on a point in your own mind when, if things do not improve to a genuinely acceptable level, you will leave. It is up to you what point that will be--6 months, 1 year, 2 years. Choose a time frame that balances time for her to take action and make changes with your need to end your current state of misery.

 

Don't tell her that you've made this decision to leave after X amt of time. This is about you taking control of you, not you trying to control her (not meant to be used as an ultimatum).

 

Then dedicate that time frame to putting EVERYTHING into solve the problem. Push and move forward. Schedule appts and drive her there. This is the last chance, so PUSH. At this point, you have nothing to lose.

 

At the end of the predetermined time frame, reevaluate. Is the current state of the marriage acceptable to you? If not, know that you have given it a fair chance, and leave.

[KathyM]

sure, but therapy might take years... my wife was supposed to go to therapy to fix herself, so she could stop taking the drugs that are making her libido close to zero. Guess what? She never did. If you know your wife is not having sex with you because of a medical condition, do you leave? Do you insist? Yes, but after a while, you give up and live in limbo...

A lot of therapies are geared towards short term interventions with faster results. Brief Psychodynamic Therapy, CBT, to name a few. Narrative Therapy doesn't necessarily have to take that long. Freudian Psychoanalysis tends to take a longer time, but nowdays a lot of counselors use the shorter term therapies. In your case, you should continue to encourage your wife to go to therapy. Offer to make the appointment. And consult with her medical doctor on what can be done to improve her libido which is being negatively affected by her medication. Sometimes they can alter the medication or suggest some other medication that would improve her sex drive. Don't give up, and don't let her give up on that. This is something that could probably be worked out.

[Floridaman]

Consider this:

 

Decide on a point in your own mind when, if things do not improve to a genuinely acceptable level, you will leave. It is up to you what point that will be--6 months, 1 year, 2 years. Choose a time frame that balances time for her to take action and make changes with your need to end your current state of misery.

 

Don't tell her that you've made this decision to leave after X amt of time. This is about you taking control of you, not you trying to control her (not meant to be used as an ultimatum).

 

Then dedicate that time frame to putting EVERYTHING into solve the problem. Push and move forward. Schedule appts and drive her there. This is the last chance, so PUSH. At this point, you have nothing to lose.

 

At the end of the predetermined time frame, reevaluate. Is the current state of the marriage acceptable to you? If not, know that you have given it a fair chance, and leave.

 

One thing that has helped me in this thread, was to "grow a pair" as another poster recommended in another thread.

 

Have tried numerous times to link to it, but the link always breaks, so pasting here...

 

Page 13, Post No. 190...

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/279999-married-folks-how-often-do-you-have-sex-13.html#post3733884

 

Originally Posted by Floridaman

 

Perhaps my wife's witholding is bec. of her wanting to "control" things.

 

 

Floridaman, are you seriously only considering this now? It's written all over the place!!!

 

When I read your posts, I want to scream at you and shake you and tell you to grow some! I find it unbelievable to read how your wife plays you when it comes to sex. It's pure manipulation.

You should read the "No More Mr Nice Guy" book.

 

Unless a woman has really bad health issues, there is no reason for her not to have regular sex with her partner in a committed relationship. And the same is valid for men.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I've been too timid, thinking there was something "wrong" with me, in that my wife wasn't sexually attracted to me.

Or thinking it would be "wrong" to impose my desires on her, so I was more concerned about her comfort and needs.

 

Am not putting-up with that anymore.

Am trying some concrete things to change things and will not just sit here "hoping" things change.

Am becoming more aggressive, making my moves and trying to lead her back to me in the marriage bed...

Edited March 14, 2012 by Floridaman

[2sunny]

Tell her IF she doesn't get to counseling within a week you're going to file for D.

 

She needs to find out WHY she spends so much time and energy trying NOT to have sex with you...and YOU DESERVE TO KNOW THAT ANSWER.

 

Do not back down on her getting an appt and following through with seeing someone who is an expert in sexual difficulties...

 

Don't do this for her - see IF she finds the counselor - makes the appt - and goes to the meeting.

 

You want HER doing this, not you!

[giotto]

A lot of therapies are geared towards short term interventions with faster results. Brief Psychodynamic Therapy, CBT, to name a few. Narrative Therapy doesn't necessarily have to take that long. Freudian Psychoanalysis tends to take a longer time, but nowdays a lot of counselors use the shorter term therapies. In your case, you should continue to encourage your wife to go to therapy. Offer to make the appointment. And consult with her medical doctor on what can be done to improve her libido which is being negatively affected by her medication. Sometimes they can alter the medication or suggest some other medication that would improve her sex drive. Don't give up, and don't let her give up on that. This is something that could probably be worked out.

 

she needs CBT, but she won't go. I suppose she's scared to face her ghosts. I offered to pay. She says she's developed a coping mechanism and that she is fine with the medications. Unfortunately, I'm not! It's working for her, so why change it? A bit selfish, eh? I could insist, but I've slowly fallen out of love, so I almost don't care about it anymore either.

[2sunny]

We now know several things:

 

She doesn't WANT sex with you

She has sex with you to manipulate and control (creating negative energy surrounding sex)

She doesn't intend to change

 

So how can we help YOU at this point?

 

What is it you expect IF everything remains the same?

 

 

Can YOU live within this marriage without ever having sex again? IF you stay - expect that as reality - mainly because YOU KNOW she doesn't want to participate... Yet she does only when she is forced to - or when she wants to manipulate or control you with it - like a weapon.

Edited March 14, 2012 by 2sunny

[zengirl]

OP,

 

I really admire how you've tried to stick in there. I do think that if you don't see her put some energy and effort into trying to change, you may need to consider what that means to you, if your M is to continue like this forever. Other than that, I have no good advice. Sorry.

[Nightsky]

OP,

 

I really admire how you've tried to stick in there. I do think that if you don't see her put some energy and effort into trying to change, you may need to consider what that means to you, if your M is to continue like this forever. Other than that, I have no good advice. Sorry.

 

Some times the best thing you can do on here is just let people know their concerns and feeling are valid.

 

I don't know what he should do myself. I know what should be trying and he seems to be doing that. Mariage is a two way street.

[2sunny]

So you already told our W that counseling is a must.

 

Now you say you're going to suggest counseling again... Yet you only/mainly get sex when you threaten counseling is required... So you keep hese idle threats coming - so she gives you the sex.

 

Nothing has changed.

 

What's the plan when she doesn't go to counseling and stops giving you the sex - because she WILL realize that you are full of empty words with no action.

 

Go to your priest/minister. Talk about it with him.

 

Let her know you're going.

 

See what a minister says about a wife that never intends to have sex with her husband. It IS part of a HEALTHY marriage - ya know?

 

I'm wondering - is there really marriage without it? Hmmm

 

 

If you don't have YOUR words and actions match - it makes YOU a liar. At least she's honest - she tells you exactly what she is or isn't going to do.

Edited March 15, 2012 by 2sunny