Refusal-Long time refused & considering leaving...

[Floridaman]

An Update:This is all just an illusion. That "three times on a Sunday" was clearly an aberration as I couldn't even get a "one time on a Sunday" this weekend, despite how long we spent cuddling and kissing on the couch (like 3 hours).

 

We're doing fine on the cuddling so I proceed to caress her chest and don't get blocked. Do that for maybe 5 mins. and am ready to take it to the next level and she shuts me down.

 

I "pressure her" too much and use the "we only have limited time" together rationale too frequently.

 

I told her I cannot live without having her sexually and how it's killing me. This isn't what real married people do.

 

Yeah, I get the 10-min. long deep tongue kiss, which I love, and all the cuddling I could ever want.... but nothing further.

 

Then, the next night I don't control my anger on something and she holds it against me and other things. The next a.m., I sarcastically say, "You'll be sure to find another reason to block me.... as usual..."

 

So I gave her another reason to form a barrier between us: my p***ed-off attitude. Great strategy there to ruin our holiday time together.

[oregonb]

book suggestion: Love and Respect by Emerson. Get two copies so you can both read it. It will explain to her why sex is important to you and to a working marriage, and it will also probably help you with ideas to make her feel more emotionally close. Its Christian based, and yes, it will remind her of the passage that neither partner should refuse the other It sounds good that you are really thinking about how to please her and make it that she will enjoy sex enough to want it for herself.

 

I understand the frustration and difficulty controlling the anger and hurt from rejection, cause I am experiencing that in the opposite form. It is so hard to bide time and not put on pressure, yet feel like progress might get made.

[Floridaman]

book suggestion: Love and Respect by Emerson. Get two copies so you can both read it. It will explain to her why sex is important to you and to a working marriage, and it will also probably help you with ideas to make her feel more emotionally close. Its Christian based, and yes, it will remind her of the passage that neither partner should refuse the other It sounds good that you are really thinking about how to please her and make it that she will enjoy sex enough to want it for herself.

 

I understand the frustration and difficulty controlling the anger and hurt from rejection, cause I am experiencing that in the opposite form. It is so hard to bide time and not put on pressure, yet feel like progress might get made.

That is a good suggestion, orgeonb.

I have brought up the 1 Cor. 7:1 verse which says not to deny each other unless both mutually agree...

I try not to throw that up in her face (okay, once I did when I got really frustrated). She's into Scripture so I thought she'd appreciate that verse.

 

That verse is well discussed on themarriagebed.com's refusal board..

http://www.boards.themarriagebed.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=47491

That is a thread there (you have to sign up to view that area of the board).

(That may be a second page of the thread. I can't view that thread now bec. I'm at work and the office blocks certain sites like "religion.")

 

http://www.boards.themarriagebed.com/ is the main site there.

 

I have looked through your other posts and have read up on your situation. I do feel for you and see how you unfortunately have a partner who sexually ignores you.

 

Here is a group devoted exclusively to this topic. It's run by a woman whose hubby also ignores her... I can guarantee she will respond if you post there. She's very helpful.

http://sexlessmarriage.yuku.com/directory

There are a lot of us in this same sinking boat... we need all the support and advice we can get

Edited December 22, 2010 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

An update and some good news:

I think we're breaking the "no sex in marriage" spell.

 

We seem to be ML more often this visit.

We ML Friday eve. after spending most of the day holding each other on the couch.

Sun. night, in a hotel, I entered and enjoyed a little satisfaction, but she had to cut it short bec. of discomfort.

(I thought we used enough lube).

The next night, we ML after spending some time in the soothing hot tub in our hotel room. That helped calm her and made her welcome me. Took much foreplay, but that's no problem as I now understand that's a necessary part of a woman's enjoyment in LM.

 

So far..... we have ML 1 time in October, 3X on Tgiving weekend Sunday, 1 time this weekend, 1 time the other evening....

 

We are spending much more time in each other's arms... The other night we slept in each other's arms. My goal was to restore emotional intimacy, and it appears we are making headway on that.

 

So things are looking up.

[Floridaman]

tierz,

I'll take a look at the site you recommended.

 

It's not all bliss, however.

 

We ML last Sat. night (New Year's day) after a walk through a place we used to go on dates and a romantic dinner at an expensive restaurant ($100+ check). Truly a magical eve. I rank as one of our best.

 

At 3 a.m., she awakens me by caressing me (something she rarely if never has done).

We cuddle more all the while I fight falling asleep.

When I get ready to ask her if I can get the lube, she says she wants to fall asleep.

I stayed awake to please her. Now I can't get any kind of satisfaction???

I can't fall asleep probably until 5 a.m. and sleep until 9 a.m.

 

That next a.m. is the opposite. She awakens me and says we have 30 mins. to leave for some church we're going to. No problem going to church, but I didn't know about it ahead of time and it usually takes me longer than a half hour to get ready. I rush but of course am too slow for her and we're a little late. Only miss some of the songs.

 

Then everything else in the world goes wrong. She hates me trying to hold her and hold her hand in the service. I point out that the man in the other couple seated nearby has his arms around his wife.

Still, anger that I don't listen and don't let her have her space.

 

Anger throughout most of the day, our last weekend day together for who knows how long. I tell her this as she never lets me ML on worknights. We do cuddle but never any chance for LM, as I keep requesting (time is limited). I tell her during cuddling that I'm a guy and need sexual love. And that I will be wanting to ML much more frequently when she moves back.

 

Then this a.m., she blows up at me over relatively small things while I drive her to work in her car. The lunch I made wasn't big enough . I have her car all these three weeks and she can't go out.. I tell her to eat in the co. cafe. She says it's too expensive. I tell her I'll give her some $$. No takers.

On and on and on...

 

I'll have to find my own way to work from now on, she tells me. I mistakenly tell her that I won't let her borrow my car (which I gave her earlier after LM) when she returns to where our home is to interview for jobs. Then she threatens to make me stop the car and find my own way to work.

 

This is just getting too much.

[Floridaman]

It's amazing.

One day, she can be all over me and acting like I'm the best man in the world that she wants to sexually please.

(The way we looked at each other over the dinner and what we did later that night in the hotel room....)

The next day, it's the total opposite.

 

She's yelling at me for moving something of her's that made her spend 10 mins. looking for it and blames me for making her late to work... plus all the other things I mentioned earlier (small or minor things IMHO(

 

I told you how she was upset with me the other day. Last night, the eve. of her being mad at me in the a.m., she was much friendlier. We didn't ML (I kinda hinted I wanted to) but held each other closely in our arms. She was all over me and wouldn't let me leave the bed.... but no sex.

 

Then this a.m., she's short with me (not angry like earlier) on some other things.

 

Guess that's how relationships work.

[Floridaman]

Try going to this site.http://www.lickbylick.com/ It costs $37 to get the ebook but it also comes with 4 other ones including 101 romantic ideas. It will also explain how to convince her to let you go downstairs. It explains about womens bodies and I think she would apreciate it. My husband and I would only have sex once every 2 to 3 months. My fault, just had a baby a year ago and had no interest in sex. Felt like a chore. We tried out the ideas in the book and know Im sex-crazed. Had my first O, first time we tried it out. Now we ML 4 to 5 times a week if we can!! With a baby its kind of hard. Let me know if this helps. Good luck, I hope it does.

I looked at the site and thanks for pointing it to me.

Wasn't familiar with the author.

I think it's a little pricey at $37. I see some of the points he's making in other books I'm reading.

 

I did a web search on the author and found this way to receive his email alerts.

http://www.theromantic.com/webb.htm

I signed up for the newsletters and will see what they include.

 

Here are some of the books I'm reading to improve my martial situation:

 

-Sheet Music, Kevin Leman.

 

-Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship - Dr. David Schnarch P.h.D;

 

-Resurrecting Sex: Solving Sexual Problems and Revolutionizing Your Relationship - David Schnarch;

 

-Love and Respect for a Lifetime: Women Absolutely Need Love. Men Absolutely Need Respect. Its as Simple and as Complicated as That... - Emerson Eggerichs;

 

-Honey, I Don't Have a Headache Tonight: Help for Women Who Want to Feel More In the Mood - Shelia Wray Gregoire;

 

-The Marriage Bed, the LaHayes.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

Hmmm. I was thinking I could try to email it to you? Just a one time email, and you can just keep me updated on here. I would really like to help.

Tierz,

Email links aren't allowed in the forum, according to the rules.

I can't PM you yet bec. members need like 50 posts in 30 days before a member gets PM status.

 

You may be able to communicate with me quicker on another forum dedicated to refusal I participate in (not as much lately though- haven't used PMs there).

http://sexlessmarriage.yuku.com/topic/3950/Long-time-refused-and-considering-leaving

(Hope it's okay to link to other forums).

 

You can post your link there as there are many women on that board whose husbands sexually ignore them.

 

Thanks for the offer to help. It really means something to me.

I like to think I help others by offering advice here and on other boards on other matters.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Floridaman

[Floridaman]

** Bumped **

 

Plan to update later but don't want the thread to "time-out" and get closed.

 

 

I will say I've finally opened up

Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship - Dr. David Schnarch P.h.D (one of the books I stated in prev. post that I recently purchased).

 

It's an eye-opener that has given me some insights into the low-drive spouse.

That low-drive spouse doesn't have a lack of desire bec. she's mean and trying to "control" things.

Just bec. she doesn't have the same intensity of desire I have doesn't mean I'm not loved.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Floridaman

[AVR1962]

I didn't read the replies. When I read your wife was 52 the very first thought I had was that she may not have the interest which is a very real possibility at that age if she is going thru menopause. I am 48 and going thru it and don't have the interest myself. It could be other factors related tothe relationship as well, as I know that's how I feel.

[Floridaman]

I didn't read the replies. When I read your wife was 52 the very first thought I had was that she may not have the interest which is a very real possibility at that age if she is going thru menopause. I am 48 and going thru it and don't have the interest myself. It could be other factors related tothe relationship as well, as I know that's how I feel.

AVR, thanks for posting here.

That book I referenced above is helping as well as the other partner shouldn't view the partner's withholding or lack of desire as lack of love.

That's important bec. I have taken her lack of sexual affection personally and it's killed me and my confidence to the point that I this past fall was considering leaving.

 

I've read some of your posts and see while you now have a lack of desire, your husband, whom you pursued early in your relationship, has been denyting you. I am very sorry to hear that.

 

I plan to PM you another forum that deals with the subjects of lack of desire. There's also a forum there on refusal that may help. It's helped me.

[notsure15]

get out you will be better for it. stop being a wimp

[mem11363]

FM,

Are you two financially "equals" in this relationship? Or are you the primary wage earner?

 

Because if you ARE the primary wage earner - the ugly truth is that she is just using you for your money.

 

As for refusing sex - at your ages - when healthy - sex is the ULTIMATE litmus test of love. Anyone who thinks 2 healthy people can have a good/positive marriage without sex is either a fool or a eunuch....

 

 

AVR, thanks for posting here.

That book I referenced above is helping as well as the other partner shouldn't view the partner's withholding or lack of desire as lack of love.

That's important bec. I have taken her lack of sexual affection personally and it's killed me and my confidence to the point that I this past fall was considering leaving.

 

I've read some of your posts and see while you now have a lack of desire, your husband, whom you pursued early in your relationship, has been denyting you. I am very sorry to hear that.

 

I plan to PM you another forum that deals with the subjects of lack of desire. There's also a forum there on refusal that may help. It's helped me.

[You Go Girl]

How are you doing, floridaman?

 

Just send me a pm if you don't want to answer all here.

 

Looked at your thread and was disappointed. I had hoped things were going better for you and her.

 

What I don't like is that she is hot and cold. A mystery not to be solved. Keeping you wondering what today will bring--cold dinner or hot one.

 

I think to some extent that is playing someone. Communication should be open and thorough. It appears not.

 

I think she is afraid of intimacy. Not just sexual intimacy--emotional intimacy. Else why the hot and cold? Can you think of anything in your behavior that promotes this? Are you clingy, or needy?

 

Keep up the good work. Nobody can say that you aren't trying.

[Floridaman]

How are you doing, floridaman?

Just send me a pm if you don't want to answer all here.

Looked at your thread and was disappointed. I had hoped things were going better for you and her.

 

What I don't like is that she is hot and cold. A mystery not to be solved. Keeping you wondering what today will bring--cold dinner or hot one.

I think to some extent that is playing someone. Communication should be open and thorough. It appears not.

Yeah, she's hot and cold. Don't know what to make of that.

But that was when I was with her those three weeks over the holidays, and was in her territory, using her car, bathroom, kitchen, etc.

---I wouldn't have any problem with her using my car when she comes to visit here. As she has a longer commute, I freely gave her my recently paid-off car, for God's sake!!

She didn't ask for the car. I just told her I'd like her to have it.

This was during the afterglow. Guess I better be careful what I say in those moments.

I think she is afraid of intimacy. Not just sexual intimacy--emotional intimacy. Else why the hot and cold? Can you think of anything in your behavior that promotes this? Are you clingy, or needy?

She may well be afraid of intimacy. She may have closed herself off to me.

 

I posted this problem on another board. The female posters there think she may have "checked out" of our marriage years ago bec. she figured out I wasn't thinking primarily of her physical enjoyment and that the LM was only about me and my needs, unfortunately.

http://www.enotalone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371096&p=4666730&viewfull=1#post4666730

(No problem linking to that forum. I link to LS on that forum, so goes both ways).

 

After reading those marital sex books, I woke up and realized that attitude of mine was wrong and now I regret it. I imagine many men are like that. I am hoping she's not holding that against me.

Keep up the good work. Nobody can say that you aren't trying.

You Go Girl,

Sorry, I forgot to open this thread after getting a notification last night.

 

She's flying here three weekends from now and I'm soooooooo looking forward to it. I'm hoping I don't blow it and can continue to get emotionally close to her.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. That is a help.

[Floridaman]

FM,

Are you two financially "equals" in this relationship? Or are you the primary wage earner?

 

Because if you ARE the primary wage earner - the ugly truth is that she is just using you for your money.

 

As for refusing sex - at your ages - when healthy - sex is the ULTIMATE litmus test of love. Anyone who thinks 2 healthy people can have a good/positive marriage without sex is either a fool or a eunuch....

Agree wholeheartedly with the bolded part.

As I posted, we ML one Sun. over the holidays THREE TIMES !!!

Primarily bec. I had trouble releasing (finally though on third try), so that's why she gave me that gift two other times.

 

I would have been happy with just once, but THREE TIMES???

 

Can't help but feel she loves me for that action, as she did it primarly for my pleasure.

 

On your first question, she makes the most money.

She makes 60-70% of our income. I do well in my field and earn in the $40s, but she's in a higher paying (i.e. medical, legal, education) field.

[Floridaman]

*** bumped ***

Will post an update later but don't want the thread to "time out."

Thanks for your interest.

[Duckduckgoose]

I am bumping this so you will update it.

[Floridaman]

Am planning to talk with her more. I realize I haven't been attentive to her needs and deprived her on that as a husband.

I plan to continue reading those books as I need all the help I can get. Besides, who can tell what's on a woman's mind???

 

She knows I bought those books as I told her and read the titles to her before I ordered them from Amazon. She has read a couple of them.

 

The books aren't only about sex either as one is on marriage improvement and how to rekindle your romance, though it covers sex.

 

Sheet Music says sex is a good baramoter of a marriage. If a marriage is great, sex accounts for about 10% of the relationship. If the marriage is in trouble, sex is 90% of the problem!!! (bec. lack of sex shows and hurts one of the partners).

 

We talk a lot more on the phone now, more than we ever have. In the past, I would go on week-long bus. trips and hardly call her. Now that we're apart, I can't stop calling her.

 

Gonna read more of Love & Respect and Resurrecting Sex.

Going on a trip next week and need to open those books. That's all I really have now: books and any info. I can glean from them and online.

I gotta make it. This is my chance to improve our relationship and get us back together...

Edited March 17, 2011 by Floridaman
added more info. on books..

[Floridaman]

I've done a lot of thinking on this and now realize partners in marriage should be independent of each other. Both need strong independence, as I'm reading in Intimacy & Desire:

"....Autonomy promotes stable attachments. When you'd like to unload your frustrations on your partner, and he or she deserves it - but you don't do it - that is real autonomy. That is also incredibly hard to do.

 

We want closeness and connection and freedom and self-direction.

Imbalance either way causes our self to feel impinged upon. (The lower your level of differentiation, the less it takes to perturb you.)

 

When relationships feel confining and your partner seems demanding, your refusal to submit to tyranny kicks in and low sexual desire is the result. When your relationships feel distant (even when you're emotionally fused), sexual desire if often similarly diminished.

 

Differentiation is the opposite of emotional fusion.

Emotional fusion is togetherness (attachment) without separateness (autonomy).

 

Differentiation is togetherness with separateness.

 

The lower your four points of balance [solid flexible self, Quiet mind-calm heart, Grounded responding & Meaningful endurance], the greater the emotional fusion and borrowed with your partner...."

(pp. 90, 91, 95).

Plan to post more quotes from the book which I'm learning a lot from.

Read through one of the chapters and saw myself being described therein.

 

Essentially, the high-drive partner often seeks affirmation in the low drive partner.

When the HDP doesn't get it, he/she feels unloved. That person has a relected sense of self- he/she gets his sense of worth externally (from others) instead of internally, where it should be. This places a burden on the low-desire partner.

"...Sally is the low desire partner, and like most low desire partners, she knows you need her to validate you as a lover. She's supposed to do that by having sexual desire. The only problem is that having to validate you makes her feel less desire and more pressured. Sally knows you feel rejected when she doesn't want sex - and this in turn makes it harder for her to enjoy having sex with you. The low desire partner's sexual desire goes down and the high desire partner's reflected sense of self goes with it.

 

"...When the high desire partner blames the low desire partner, any fledgling desire evaporates and the low desire partner becomes resentful, defensive and unmotivated. The high desire partner takes this personally too. So the cycle worsens..."

p. 48.

 

 

Plan to post more on our situation.... Sorry I haven't kept this updated as much.

[Floridaman]

Another update:

We shared a weekend together at the end of last month (Feb.).

 

It was a like a great date. The whole weekend we were together, like we were dating again.

 

Honestly, I tried to keep the physical pressure low.

Tried to just let it happen. It never happened, though, and the weekend was nearing an end.

During the last few hours on Sun. afternoon, I broke that and tried to go farther.

 

She had been napping in my arms, as she is fatigued from her long hours at her job and all.

She told me she was too tired and not in the mood, but still loves me.

 

Told her how we haven't seen each other IN LIKE TWO MONTHS and won't for another month, so....

 

I was clearly upset and it showed in my face at the airport.

 

Tried to put that advice I read in Intimacy & Desire to work - that the high-drive partner shouldn't put so much validation in the partner and think he/she isn't loved when the low-drive partner doesn't respond.

 

Explained all that to her and told her I had been putting a burden on her by trying to fulfill my emotional needs through her.

Yes, easy to read and understand, hard to put into practice, as evidenced by how I wanted her and tried to get closer to her that weekend....

[Floridaman]

Just an update here:

We are seeing each other this weekend. She's to fly in tonight. This will be month between visits.

 

In an IM earlier this week, did tell her that I was planning to play it cool and not pressure her, but that I really didn't want her to "automatically" deflect me this weekend.

 

(Yes, spouses do that - it becomes a habit - and I read of one spouse doing that in Intimacy & Desire)

 

I told her I wanted to express my love in that way and really hope she'd be willing....

 

So hopefully, we will get closer this weekend.

 

This is also a special weekend in that it's my birthday.

So wish me well

[PinkInTheLimo]

Floridaman, I think you are a masochist. You should read the book "No more Mr Nice Guy".

You have to get out of this pattern where you have to beg here to have sex. She is in total control and she likes it that way, I think.

You crawl and crawl for her, walk on eggshells all in the hope that one day she will let you reach the holy grail.

 

You should tell her: "Either you have sex with me or I leave this marriage." You would be surprised to see the change in her attitude.

[giotto]

 

You should tell her: "Either you have sex with me or I leave this marriage." You would be surprised to see the change in her attitude.

 

and then she will have sex with him not because she wants to, but because of the fear of losing him... nice!

[Ms. Joolie]

Floridaman,

 

You are desperately trying to get the love/intimacy/sexual life you want inside your marriage. You are working hard on this, it is consuming you. But what is she doing? How does she really express her love to you if it is not by the intimacy of sex?

 

Have you two been to marriage counseling? I think marriage counseling will open up a new realm of communication for you two. It will provide the safe environment for questions to be asked in regards to the sexual life inside your marriage. For example:

 

What are her reasons for denying you sex?

What is her view and her feelings in regard to sex?

Is she confident in her sexuality?

Does she understand the impact this has had on you?

What is her expression of love inside a marriage?

 

 

You would learn so much about your wife. Also, you could express yourself fully and be heard in real life.

 

The alternative to MC would be YOU taking a stand for yourself and initiating these conversations, asking the questions that need to be asked, listening to her every word, and expressing yourself fully. This would be great but I think working with a professional will have its advantages here.

 

Good luck to you. In my world, every problem is caused and solved with language aka communication. I see your situation no differently, and clearly there are some bold conversations to be had.