Respect others' choices

[jennie-jennie]

Is it possible that LS can become a place where we respect that other adults are capable of making choices in their own best interest, choices which for us ourselves would be morally wrong and/or bad choices? Is it possible for us to support a person who takes a different moral stand than we do without telling them to conform to our moral stand? Is it possible for LS to become a place where OW choosing to stay in extramarital relationships can find the support they need while remaining in the relationship?

 

It is never easy to be an OW. Even when you consider the benefits to outweigh the consequences, support frequently is needed.

 

Today, unfortunately, I believe this to be a too common scenario:

 

I stumbled upon another website where one of our unapologetic OW was writing about the heartache and agony of her affair. But when she comes here to post, it's all sunshine and roses. That's just wrong, and knowingly giving false hope to people.

 

I don't think this OW is trying to deceive anyone. It is more likely that she does not feel safe to express the concerns she has on LS. So it would be in the interest of the anti-affair posters as well to make LS a better place for the OW choosing to remain in extramarital relationships. That way a truer picture would be presented of the life as an OW.

 

FOG posed me some interesting questions which I am hoping we can discuss in this thread:

 

Originally Posted by Fieldsofgold

Here is my question for you. How do I give you moral support and encouragement for your difficult times, when I think what you're doing is going to hurt you? How do I console or comfort you on a bad day, without encouraging you to stay in what I think is a harmful relationship?

[Lauriebell82]

I am posting but really hoping not to get into a huge fight about this.

 

From my perspective, not everyone on this site is a BS/OW/OM, therefore there are going to be DIFFERENT posts. It's not always going to be what someone wants to hear. That's like me telling you to stay out of the marriage forum because you aren't married.

 

I agree with you about the bashing, but members should be allowed to disagree with the OW about her behavior and encourage her to explore it...THAT may be in her best interest. I think it's also important to remember to take advice on this forum in stride. I had a lot of comments on my relationship that were dead wrong.

 

So I would encourage OW/BS/OM to take what they read on this site in stide. If someone disagrees with them about soemthing their AP says, then they need to consider it, if they disagree and feel they are wrong then they don't follow the person's advice.

 

Trying to censor LS (as in pick and chose who should post in what forum) goes against what it is. A variety of different people and experiences is what makes it unique.

[greengoddess]

Many not all other woman post here because what they are doing by being the lover of a married man is so morally repugnant even to themselves that they know they can not tell a soul in their real lives. So on an anonymous message board they can discuss their activities which the majority of society deem to be inappropriate.

 

I don't know how you can feel embracing this behavior is benificial to the annonymous poster. An affair is a horrible situation to be in regardless of what your morals are. Living a life of lies and secrets is not good for anyone. It is especially not good for an ow's self esteem. They may get a temporary ego boost with the thought of what the married man is willing to risk by being with them but it is temporary as they realize the extent the married man is willing to go to to keep them hidden from the world.

[harmfulsweetz]

I don't think people should judge others on here for their choices but I do think they should encourage posters to see the other side of their actions, otherwise what is the point? Is there any point in having LS if all people do is agree and offer no real advice?

 

I do my best to respect the choices of others, but I will be honest. If I think that someone is headed down a path that is just going to get them hurt, and hurt others, I will be honest about that, but I will still respect their choices.

 

It's good for the OP to always remain open to advice that they may not want to hear, but need to hear.

[greengoddess]

I don't think people should judge others on here for their choices but I do think they should encourage posters to see the other side of their actions, otherwise what is the point? Is there any point in having LS if all people do is agree and offer no real advice?

 

I do my best to respect the choices of others, but I will be honest. If I think that someone is headed down a path that is just going to get them hurt, and hurt others, I will be honest about that, but I will still respect their choices.

 

It's good for the OP to always remain open to advice that they may not want to hear, but need to hear.

 

 

See but that is a contradiction. How can you respect something that that you know will hurt others?

[greengoddess]

Oh and just the fact that your "relationship" needs a support forum makes one wonder why you would want to be in it.

[harmfulsweetz]

See but that is a contradiction. How can you respect something that that you know will hurt others?

 

I think you can do your best to not overly judge and chastise the poster aka bashing. You can offer support in an honest manner, but still be respectful about it. No one on LS has the god-given right to judge other's for their choices, that's not what LS (in my view) is about. We aren't here to make others feel even worse about their situation, but to provide guidance, share experiences and wisdom.

[Lauriebell82]

See but that is a contradiction. How can you respect something that that you know will hurt others?

 

It's possible to be respectful to someone but still disagree with them.

 

Example: OW posts about A, questions whether to get out or not

 

Post A: "Wow, seems like you are very conflicted. He hasn't followed through on his promise to leave his wife, why are you so sure he will follow through with his promise to be with you someday?"

 

Post B: "This guy is a slimebag, you are stupid if you believe anything he says. What you are doing is immoral and you are lying to yourself if you believe he will ever follow through on his promises. If you were smart you wouldn't have started the A in the first place."

 

Do you see the difference? Both posts disagree with the OP's actions, one is respectful, one is not.

[greengoddess]

I think you can do your best to not overly judge and chastise the poster aka bashing. You can offer support in an honest manner, but still be respectful about it. No one on LS has the god-given right to judge other's for their choices, that's not what LS (in my view) is about. We aren't here to make others feel even worse about their situation, but to provide guidance, share experiences and wisdom.

 

I don't agree with bashing either. I think you can try to get your opinion known without doing it disrespectfully but I can not respect someone who I feel is knowingly and continually harming another person without their knowledge. That person does not warrant my respect because that's what my morals dictate. When my morals tell me to respect people who purposely harm another than I am afraid for my future.

[carhill]

How do I give you moral support and encouragement for your difficult times, when I think what you're doing is going to hurt you? How do I console or comfort you on a bad day, without encouraging you to stay in what I think is a harmful relationship?

 

Though perhaps beyond the scope of an anonymous internet forum, it's pretty simple, essentially the same methodology which our MC used:

 

Support the person and challenge them to examine their choices.

 

On LS, IMO the dividing line is what the administrators call 'personal attacks'.

 

When I've read Owl's postings over the years, I see an excellent example of someone walking the line with care. I feel the anger and betrayal that a BS feels but controlled with intellect and compassion and empathy.

 

It's up to each of us to choose our path but the administrators here have the final authority over what is presented to the public. I don't envy them in that task. Looking back over a decade or so of posts and topics when reading the archives, LS has, IMO, become a less respectful and supportive community. We can change that. We can be part of the solution. The current environment, here or in the real world, doesn't have to rule us.

 

I personally learned a lot of difficult lessons from being an OM and MM. I hope those lessons, shared, help someone else. If so, the time and effort have been worthwhile. Happy holidays

[Lauriebell82]

I don't agree with bashing either. I think you can try to get your opinion known without doing it disrespectfully but I can not respect someone who I feel is knowingly and continually harming another person without their knowledge. That person does not warrant my respect because that's what my morals dictate. When my morals tell me to respect people who purposely harm another than I am afraid for my future.

 

In other words you don't respect their behavior? Nobody is perfect, we all do less then desirable things sometimes. Saying that everyone who makes mistakes doesn't deserve respect isn't very moral either, is it?

 

I work with drug addicts and they have done some horrific things. They have a disease, a disorder. They are hurting themselves, but bashing them, yelling at them, not respecting that they are a person is not going to help them. It's just going to allow them to continue self destuctive behavior.

[harmfulsweetz]

I don't agree with bashing either. I think you can try to get your opinion known without doing it disrespectfully but I can not respect someone who I feel is knowingly and continually harming another person without their knowledge. That person does not warrant my respect because that's what my morals dictate. When my morals tell me to respect people who purposely harm another than I am afraid for my future.

 

I think if that is the case, and you feel you will only end up *bashing* the OP then chances are, the best thing to do is to walk away from the thread.

 

I always try and put myself in the OPs shoes, and consider what I would do/feel in their position. I understand that you can't respect those that are knowingly hurting others, but if only life and feelings were so simple.

 

Lauriebell, hit the nail on the head, her examples are spot-on.

 

I don't think people purposely want to hurt others, unless they are sociopathic. Most on here are really conflicted, emotionally, they are caught between being with this person who they cannot be with really, and doing the right thing. I'd love to say I'd never involve myself with an otherwise attached man, but one day, I may be tested with that. I don't know. I try not to judge using my own standards, I try to be objective if I can. If not, I won't post.

[greengoddess]

In other words you don't respect their behavior? Nobody is perfect, we all do less then desirable things sometimes. Saying that everyone who makes mistakes doesn't deserve respect isn't very moral either, is it?

 

I work with drug addicts and they have done some horrific things. They have a disease, a disorder. They are hurting themselves, but bashing them, yelling at them, not respecting that they are a person is not going to help them. It's just going to allow them to continue self destuctive behavior.

 

An affair, especially one carried on over YEARS is not a mistake. A one night stand sure yea a mistake but no an affair is a concious decision to deceive and hurt another person daily for years.

[greengoddess]

In other words you don't respect their behavior? Nobody is perfect, we all do less then desirable things sometimes. Saying that everyone who makes mistakes doesn't deserve respect isn't very moral either, is it?

 

I work with drug addicts and they have done some horrific things. They have a disease, a disorder. They are hurting themselves, but bashing them, yelling at them, not respecting that they are a person is not going to help them. It's just going to allow them to continue self destuctive behavior.

 

 

Do you really feel someone involved in an affair belongs in the same category as a person with substance abuse? They are not addicts with a disease or a disorder. Although I guess maybe it could be considered a social disorder. I have compassion for addicts. I have compassion for young women who I feel are duped into these relationships with married men. I do not have compassion for someone who knowingly continues the behavior day in and day out hurting others and I will not respect their choice to continue this behavior.

[harmfulsweetz]

An affair, especially one carried on over YEARS is not a mistake. A one night stand sure yea a mistake but no an affair is a concious decision to deceive and hurt another person daily for years.

 

True, it's a bad choice some people make. You set your standards, and others set their own. Affairs that last years often are the most painful and difficult to leave, if it were easy, it wouldn't have lasted years.

 

The issue with LS often is that posters spend a lot of time judging each other, rather than actually following the aims of LS. We must always be honest, but respectful, telling someone that they are consciously deceiving everyone, and are selfish etc isn't helpful and belongs somewhere else. You can say the same thing in others ways.

[greengoddess]

My compassion for young women duped into these situations is one reason why I have no respect for someone who will cheerlead an affair and say to follow your heart. These OLDER married men are taking the best years of these womens lives and they are believing every word the married man is shoveling. They even go back for more after they are thrown under the bis with the hopes they will one day have a happy ever after that is cheerleaded here.

 

One other woman would even be fine with her daughter having an affair. I can not imagine not attempting to get my daughter away from a married man. How sad to be okay with your daughter wasting her twenties on a man who will never give them the future they want and deserve.

[harmfulsweetz]

Do you really feel someone involved in an affair belongs in the same category as a person with substance abuse? They are not addicts with a disease or a disorder. Although I guess maybe it could be considered a social disorder. I have compassion for addicts. I have compassion for young women who I feel are duped into these relationships with married men. I do not have compassion for someone who knowingly continues the behavior day in and day out hurting others and I will not respect their choice to continue this behavior.

 

You have compassion for addicts who made a choice in taking the drugs (which is the same as an OW/OM making a choice) and often hurting other people. It's the same thing. It's not easy (I imagine) leaving someone you care about, even love. I don't think anyone should assume it is.

[greengoddess]

True, it's a bad choice some people make. You set your standards, and others set their own. Affairs that last years often are the most painful and difficult to leave, if it were easy, it wouldn't have lasted years.

 

The issue with LS often is that posters spend a lot of time judging each other, rather than actually following the aims of LS. We must always be honest, but respectful, telling someone that they are consciously deceiving everyone, and are selfish etc isn't helpful and belongs somewhere else. You can say the same thing in others ways.

 

 

Honestly how is trying to make someone see the truth of their actions judging them? I am not calling them names. I see very few judgments and name calling here. I see mostly good people trying to help ow see how harmful their actions are to others and to themselves. I will tell someone that they are conciously deceiving others. i do not see what is wrong with that. I have not called them selfish though although I do feel affairs are a selfish act.

[Lauriebell82]

An affair, especially one carried on over YEARS is not a mistake. A one night stand sure yea a mistake but no an affair is a concious decision to deceive and hurt another person daily for years.

 

I agree with you that it's a concious decision..a very bad decision. I am in no way trying to downplay adultry, the point I am trying to make is that bashing them is not going to help them at all. Like harmfulsweetz said, if you feel like you can't state your opinion or advice in a respectful manner, then it would be wise not to post.

 

Do you really feel someone involved in an affair belongs in the same category as a person with substance abuse? They are not addicts with a disease or a disorder. Although I guess maybe it could be considered a social disorder. I have compassion for addicts. I have compassion for young women who I feel are duped into these relationships with married men. I do not have compassion for someone who knowingly continues the behavior day in and day out hurting others and I will not respect their choice to continue this behavior.

 

Maybe not the same category, but it is the same concept. And drug addicts DO continue this behavior day it and day out. They know they are hurting themselves and other's but continue to do the behavior. You'd be surprised how many drug addicts have been former MM and OW.

[scatterd]

I can see respecting a person but sometimes its not easy to respect their choices allot of times the person has lost respect in themselves also.Everybody has their own opinions and it comes from their own experiences in life.If we all thought the same it would be boring and why

would you want the same opinion all the time.I have given advice many times and tried my best to be kind but sometimes people get defensive

even though you are not meaning to offend them.

[bentnotbroken]

True, it's a bad choice some people make. You set your standards, and others set their own. Affairs that last years often are the most painful and difficult to leave, if it were easy, it wouldn't have lasted years.

 

The issue with LS often is that posters spend a lot of time judging each other, rather than actually following the aims of LS. We must always be honest, but respectful, telling someone that they are consciously deceiving everyone, and are selfish etc isn't helpful and belongs somewhere else. You can say the same thing in others ways.

 

 

One could, but one can always you the ignore feature as well.

[JustJoe]

First off, disagreeing is NOT bashing, nor does SUPPORT = acceptance. Many times I have been told that the choice I made to have an affair was wrong, and the poster went on to explain why they thought so. I never considered this to be "bashing", but more along the lines of concerned criticism.

[harmfulsweetz]

Honestly how is trying to make someone see the truth of their actions judging them? I am not calling them names. I see very few judgments and name calling here. I see mostly good people trying to help ow see how harmful their actions are to others and to themselves. I will tell someone that they are conciously deceiving others. i do not see what is wrong with that. I have not called them selfish though although I do feel affairs are a selfish act.

 

It depends on the manner in which it is given. I always try and make people see the truth, and always try to be as honest as I can be. Although I rarely post in this section. I do see mostly good people trying to help, but I feel when you say you can't respect a person you are being judgemental.

[Lauriebell82]

I can see respecting a person but sometimes its not easy to respect their choices allot of times the person has lost respect in themselves also.Everybody has their own opinions and it comes from their own experiences in life.If we all thought the same it would be boring and why

would you want the same opinion all the time.I have given advice many times and tried my best to be kind but sometimes people get defensive

even though you are not meaning to offend them.

 

It's funny, I did a group session on the subject of self-respect. I capitalized on the fact that addicts/alcoholics want other's to respect them but they don't respect themselves or other people. Respect is a two way street.

 

It's interesting that the OW in this forum don't always respect those who are NOT OW, but want us to respect them. It's an addictive thinking pattern.

[harmfulsweetz]

One could, but one can always you the ignore feature as well.

 

True they can, but posters can also manipulate their words in a way that is deemed more appropriate and not *bashing*. Disagreeing is a good thing, no one should cheerlead an affair, but no one should be disrespectful in their disagreements.

 

You can disagree with someone and offer them support, or you can disagree with someone and be completely disrespectful.