Respect others' choices

[OWoman]

and I think they are not the norm. They are the ones who have no qualms about hurting the wife and kids of the cheater. They are the ones who have no remorse for their part in the breakdown of the family unit. For societies sake I like to believe they are more the rare case and not the norm.

 

There is no way of knowing what "the norm" is currently, as there are no reputable, reliable, representative studies to provide that information. All anyone has access to is anecdote and their own personal lived experience, which necessarily differs from one to another.

[desertIslandCactus]

and I think they are not the norm. They are the ones who have no qualms about hurting the wife and kids of the cheater. They are the ones who have no remorse for their part in the breakdown of the family unit. For societies sake I like to believe they are more the rare case and not the norm.

 

and to add,

 

From the time the ow besets the mm, it is her survival, her wishes - and under any guise.

 

There can be no such thing as a well intentioned ow because of the break down of the family unit. Even if pre-existing marital problem, she is not the rescuer - but an addition to a problem.

 

Any wife can be considered the problem by an ow.. even if only being that the W refuses to see.

 

How can onlookers ignore the breakdown of the family unit - as well as the weakening of an ow, who had more potential and a brighter future.

[Mimolicious]

I dont know but if we had to go by statistic of a new member's 1st post ever, it's usually catastrophic. Who really comes here and is really is such an amazing phase of their R, life, etc? So we mostly get here feeling like shyte, and why is that again?

 

Not even in a group of close friends IRL you have seamless conversations. (That'll actually be kinda boring) People will always disagree, even if they share most of the same principals. I agree with respecting others choices, especially if you have repeatedly told them your opinion and they have been dismissive of it (which is also a form of disrespect). I have seen plenty of posters give out sound advice, yet the OP snaps with some nastiness back. Shine has dull on this site.

 

I guess the personal beef between certain posters has overpowered the purpose of it. Either some users disappear or new ones will take over. I think that is easier than doing an attitude adjustment make-over. It goes far beyond respect at this point.

 

Good luck to you all.

[Lauriebell82]

I have seen plenty of posters give out sound advice, yet the OP snaps with some nastiness back. Shine has dull on this site.

 

Also, posters within the thread jump in and disagree with advice being given, therefore bickering and nastiness ensue and divert the topic of the thread entirely.

 

I said this before, those who always expect respect are usually the ones who are often the most disrespectful.

[Mimolicious]

Also, posters within the thread jump in and disagree with advice being given, therefore bickering and nastiness ensue and divert the topic of the thread entirely.

 

I said this before, those who always expect respect are usually the ones who are often the most disrespectful.

 

The bolded- root of it all.

[Lauriebell82]

I often wonder what would happen if members just quoted the OP and continued to give advice, instead of agree/disagree with what others are advising. I think there would be a lot less conflict and OP woudln't feel as though they are being ganged up on.

 

I think the issue with the OW/OM forum, is that OW only want to hear from OW. I had OW tell me I'm not qualified to post in the forum because of my "lack of experience" in that area. If other posters wouldn't have even brought me into it and just let me advise the OP, I don't think any fights or arguments would have broken out.

 

That's what really needs to be prevented, taking sides in threads.

[jennie-jennie]

If your (general your - not addressed to any individual poster) concern is that an A is damaging to an OW, and you're wanting to help her out of a damaging situation, your first concern should be to establish whether or not the A is in fact damaging and not beneficial to her. Assuming that it is harmful in her life, when she considers it empowering, life-enhancing or otherwise beneficial is not supportive: it is patronising and condescending, pushing one's own morality and telling her in effect that what she thinks, feels or values doesn't count, she should just shut up and listen to her elders and betters.

 

Wow! This says it all!

 

True respect and support for an OW thus equals finding out whether she considers the extramarital relationship a negative or a positive in her life and going from there.

[Lauriebell82]

Wow! This says it all!

 

True respect and support for an OW thus equals finding out whether she considers the extramarital relationship a negative or a positive in her life and going from there.

 

True, but for the purposes of LS, I see very few OW come here stating how great they feel and how happy they are to be the OW. Usually the OP is something to the effect of "I know I shouldn't call him, but I miss him and love him. What should I do?" not "I am so happy in my A, I never want to leave MM and want to be with him forever!"

 

I think Jennie, you need to examine your own prejudice as well. I think you have somewhat, as you mentioned you do not give advice on going NC. But to understand that it is bias to find the good in the A, even if the OP is speaking negatively about it. It would be just the exact same thing if I told an OP that they should leave for good and they are making a stupid decision if they have stated that they are just going to "hang in there" and see what happens.

[jennie-jennie]

True, but for the purposes of LS, I see very few OW come here stating how great they feel and how happy they are to be the OW. Usually the OP is something to the effect of "I know I shouldn't call him, but I miss him and love him. What should I do?" not "I am so happy in my A, I never want to leave MM and want to be with him forever!"

 

I think Jennie, you need to examine your own prejudice as well. I think you have somewhat, as you mentioned you do not give advice on going NC. But to understand that it is bias to find the good in the A, even if the OP is speaking negatively about it. It would be just the exact same thing if I told an OP that they should leave for good and they are making a stupid decision if they have stated that they are just going to "hang in there" and see what happens.

 

This is pretty much my standard response to OW:

 

You need to weigh the benefits against the consequences, all the time keeping in mind that your relationship may never go beyond being an extramarital relationship. If you don't think what you have today is worth it in and by itself, then you should reconsider being in the relationship at all.

 

Sure, there is a possibility your MM might leave his marriage in the future, but that is all it is, a possibility.

 

To me, our love is worth it. :love:

 

As you can see, what I encourage them to do is to find their own path, to consider whether the EMR to them is mostly a positive or a negative. Just because an OW posts that she is having problems with her relationship does not mean that she thinks the negatives outweigh the positives. Even an OW who chooses to stay in an EMR can have bad days. So it is impossible for the outsider looking in to know whether the relationship is worth staying in or not. The OW has to find that out herself. We can support her in that if we trust her capability to make a decision true to herself, true to her morals and values, not to ours.

 

Concerning NC, my opinion is based on experience not prejudice.

[Lauriebell82]

This is pretty much my standard response to OW:

 

 

 

As you can see, what I encourage them to do is to find their own path, to consider whether the EMR to them is mostly a positive or a negative. Just because an OW posts that she is having problems with her relationship does not mean that she thinks the negatives outweigh the positives. Even an OW who chooses to stay in an EMR can have bad days. So it is impossible for the outsider looking in to know whether the relationship is worth staying in or not. The OW has to find that out herself. We can support her in that if we trust her capability to make a decision true to herself, true to her morals and values, not to ours.

 

Concerning NC, my opinion is based on experience not prejudice.

 

That makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you disagree with non OW (such as myself) that an A is a negative experience. I understand that because you are an active OW, of course don't think of it that way. You are allowed to think that way, as I am allowed to think my way about it. I think where conflict ensues is when OW (other then the OP) get defensive at comments of those who are pro-marriage and start discrediting their advice. You have done this on several occasions, as have other members. So what I am trying to say is that the problem is that you and other members try to defend being an OW against non-OW and we all begin arguing. i'm not trying to put the blame all on you though, I am guilty of arguing as well.

 

So if we could call a truce and not try to discredit each other and agree to disagree. The OP can take the advice she needs from who she agrees or disagrees with. Let's let her be the judge of that.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

True respect and support for an OW thus equals finding out whether she considers the extramarital relationship a negative or a positive in her life and going from there.

 

All the fora here on LS have the same dynamic. Rarely if ever is the entire group of responders to any OP united in giving "true respect and support." This one is no different.

 

LoveShack is a microcosm of society. Like it or not, marriage still holds somewhat of a sacred place in our cultures. The existence of a person whose role is "Other Woman / Man" is like a hot button for many people. A lot of us wish and hope that the vows of marriage could create a relationship safe from the intrusion of outsiders. The morals of such people are outraged by the concept of an OW or OM as deserving of respect, support, sympathy, compassion, etc. Such a concept is threatening.

 

I am sure there are places on the Internets where people involved in affairs with married partners get together without the intrusion of "haters" or otherwise offended or threatened people piping in. I'm afraid LS is not going to ever be one of them.

[BB07]

 

So if the non-OW could be a bit humble and just say that an extramarital relationship can be a negative experience, that would go a long way in my opinion.

 

I own my choices.

 

Jennie......are you serious? You want people to censor what they say or soften it up a bit just so they won't offend your sensibilities?

It seems to me that what you want is censorship of those posts that YOU find offensive or not in agreement with your views.

 

Let me say.....I agree that new posters shouldn't be with bombarded with harsh, rude, bashing, and demeaning posts, but to think that posters should only respond in the way you think they should is, well it blows my mind and maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

[Lauriebell82]

The OPs should not have generalizations presented to them as facts. The non-OW does not even base her generalization on experience. She has in fact no idea what it really feels like to be in an EMR.

 

What facts? I just give advice, not set in stone, hard evidence. That's like saying you can't give advice to a person with cancer if you haven't had it yourself.

 

So if the non-OW could be a bit humble and just say that an extramarital relationship can be a negative experience, that would go a long way in my opinion.

 

So, non-OW can stay, only if we say what you want us to? I believe that A are negative no matter how you want to twist it, just as abusive relationships are negative as well. They hurt a lot of people. Maybe the OW isn't get hurt at the meantime, but everyone else sure is!

 

Discrediting my experience because I am still in the extramarital relationship is very prejudiced and demeaning. I am capable of perceiving the reality I am in. I have never changed my opinion of a relationship after it ended, nor have I ever regretted staying in a relationship because I choose each day where I want to be. I own my choices.

 

I didn't discredit you at all, I don't know if you are accusing me of that or not? You have discredited me in this thread more times then I can count.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie......are you serious? You want people to censor what they say or soften it up a bit just so they won't offend your sensibilities?

It seems to me that what you want is censorship of those posts that YOU find offensive or not in agreement with your views.

 

Let me say.....I agree that new posters shouldn't be with bombarded with harsh, rude, bashing, and demeaning posts, but to think that posters should only respond in the way you think they should is, well it blows my mind and maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

You are totally misunderstanding what I am saying. You seem to be doing that a lot lately.

 

I am not telling people to censor what they say or to soften it up a bit so they won't offend me. I am telling people to keep to the facts and avoid generalizations. It is a fact that not all affairs are a negative experience. Just read LS and you will find this out.

 

Wouldn't you react if I said that all affairs are a positive experience? That is just as absurd as saying they are all negative!

[jennie-jennie]

What facts? I just give advice, not set in stone, hard evidence. That's like saying you can't give advice to a person with cancer if you haven't had it yourself.

 

So, non-OW can stay, only if we say what you want us to? I believe that A are negative no matter how you want to twist it, just as abusive relationships are negative as well. They hurt a lot of people. Maybe the OW isn't get hurt at the meantime, but everyone else sure is!

 

I didn't discredit you at all, I don't know if you are accusing me of that or not? You have discredited me in this thread more times then I can count.

 

You won't understand what it feels like to have cancer until you have it. Just like there is a lot of being an OW you will have no idea of until you have been one.

 

You can read up all you want on cancer or extramarital relationships. Until you have been in that position you are missing vital information.

 

This probably goes for OW who have been in a bad extramarital relationship as well. They do not know how it feels to be in a good one.

 

I am not expecting people to agree with me. Just for people who read my posts to admit to themselves that people like me who have a positive experience of being in an extramarital relationship exist.

[jennie-jennie]

If your (general your - not addressed to any individual poster) concern is that an A is damaging to an OW, and you're wanting to help her out of a damaging situation, your first concern should be to establish whether or not the A is in fact damaging and not beneficial to her. Assuming that it is harmful in her life, when she considers it empowering, life-enhancing or otherwise beneficial is not supportive: it is patronising and condescending, pushing one's own morality and telling her in effect that what she thinks, feels or values doesn't count, she should just shut up and listen to her elders and betters.

 

OWoman stated it better than I do.

[Mimolicious]

But wait...

 

If our opinions come from our experiences (as must of us scream this across these boards) then why is anyone's opinion less valid than another based on their roles in the R?

 

I have never been OW. I am a FBS, BS, or whatevertheheck some other people want to call me (Biter, scorned, blah blah blah). I experienced this pain. I have a relative that used to roll with a MM for 4 yrs. One of the people that I hold closest to my heart. She saw me go through what I was going through. She heard my cry, she saw me fall apart, hey she actually used to come around to lift me up! To get me out of bed and dress me up and take me out. She was "in love" with this MM. One day we went to dinner and when I asked where is MM? She said "I deaded him". I can't do to someone what I see is happening to you. :o:o:eek::confused:

This was probably one of the most heartfelt things she has ever told me.

My experience (which she was witnessing) made her see the other side of the story. She hasn't seen this man in almost 3yrs. She met a single dude and now she is in a better place.

 

I am not saying that you have to read what I just wrote but if our experiences validate our opinions, why are we arguing again?

 

From where I stand. I'll tell whoever is in some out of Hollywood drama to run. I see many of those here. Who really comes here and is all chirpy?

This ain't the Knot.com. There is very little celbebration happening. Most people come here becuase they are broken, in a dark place, etc...

They need to hear the each person's truth. Not the "truth" but EACH PERSON'S TRUTH.

[anne1707]

You won't understand what it feels like to have cancer until you have it. Just like there is a lot of being an OW you will have no idea of until you have been one.

 

You can read up all you want on cancer or extramarital relationships. Until you have been in that position you are missing vital information.

 

 

Sorry Jennie but I find it offensive that you compare cancer to affairs. I have known and cared for good people who have died long and painful deaths because of this illness. Are you saying that I cannot empathise, mourn or feel loss because I have not had cancer?

[Mimolicious]

*sorry for all the typos* couldn't edit.

[Lauriebell82]

They need to hear the each person's truth. Not the "truth" but EACH PERSON'S TRUTH.

 

Yep, this is it. Advice is rarely "accurate" or "factual." It is based on opinion. I can use generalizations in my advise if I want to. I know that if someone made some random generalization about marriage, I wouldn't get upset or offended. It's their opinion, nothing more.

 

I think Jennie is hung up on the fact that those who are pro-marriage think all A's are negative, and that hurts her because she says she is having a positive experience in her's. She just see's it from her perspective, whereas those who are pro-marriage see it from all sides (MM's family, OW's family). I mean the families are really the ones who are suffering and who are negatively effected. The MM and OW are off doing their thing. Are these generalizations and opinions? Of course they are. You can agree or disagree, but LS is about sharing opinions and advise, not to be knowledgable and have all the facts about relationships in order to post.

[whichwayisup]

What I react to are generalizations as for example stating that extramarital relationships are a negative experience, since I know this is true for some but not for all OW. I know this from my own experience of an EMR being a positive and healing experience. So if a non-OW states this to be true for all EMRs I have a hard time accepting that without disagreeing, since it is presenting an incorrect picture of EMRs. The OPs should not have generalizations presented to them as facts. The non-OW does not even base her generalization on experience. She has in fact no idea what it really feels like to be in an EMR.

 

So if the non-OW could be a bit humble and just say that an extramarital relationship can be a negative experience, that would go a long way in my opinion.

 

Discrediting my experience because I am still in the extramarital relationship is very prejudiced and demeaning. I am capable of perceiving the reality I am in. I have never changed my opinion of a relationship after it ended, nor have I ever regretted staying in a relationship because I choose each day where I want to be. I own my choices.

 

JJ, you can't control what other people post, nor their frame of mind, what they think or feel. To try to edit someone, give them guidelines that suit YOU best is very unfair. If anything, TONY or PAUL should be the ones deciding if what is appropriate or not. Discrediting others when you don't want to be discredited is totally hypocritical, can you see that? You want things one way, with rules except you won't follow the rules YOU want in place. I'm just being honest and I don't mean to upset/offend you.

 

I still think that if each of us tried our best to focus ON the original poster and helping them, and stop picking apart other replies, trying to control what others should or shouldn't be doing, LS and especially this section, will be better.

 

EVERYBODY is different and has the right to express themselves (with respect) in their own way and it's so tiresome to daily read how one should think, feel and how to post according to you.

 

Thank you for reading, no harm is meant my reply and I certainly don't want you to feel attacked, or offended.

 

Just a little head's up, or a PS: MY father died of cancer. Enough said, not going to react, but reading what you wrote...that wasn't very pleasent.

Edited November 22, 2010 by whichwayisup

[jennie-jennie]

Sorry Jennie but I find it offensive that you compare cancer to affairs. I have known and cared for good people who have died long and painful deaths because of this illness. Are you saying that I cannot empathise, mourn or feel loss because I have not had cancer?

 

I didn't bring up cancer, LB did. I wouldn't have used it as a comparison.

 

I said that you don't know what it feels like to have cancer yourself until you have it.

 

I would rather use a comparison like child birth. You can know a heck a lot about it, you can have been there and witnessed many births. But you don't really know what it feels like until you have given birth to a child yourself.

 

No offense meant, Anne.

[Fieldsofgold]

I think real issue at hand here is (atleast what causes arguing and more reaction and going off topic) posters (and I am guilty of this too!) lose focus and instead of just sticking to helping the original poster, WE ALL pick apart/disagree/agree/give our 2 cents worth about how OTHERS are giving advice, if it's good or a bad, unuseful, too rude, too nice, not the right kind of advice etc etc.. If everyone just basically stuck to helping the OP and stopped the side bickering, things WOULD get better here on LS.

 

IT just takes one person (anybody) to go off topic and from then on replies are picked apart, it becomes personal and then the arguing happens.

 

Ego's, the need to be right, point out who's wrong and why, or just wanting to rouse people up for whatever reason - THAT has to stop. Common respect has to happen...that we all have different opinions, come from different experiences, backgrounds, NOONE is right and NOONE is wrong. Does it really matter anyway, who gives better advice and why, depending on whether or not they're a BS, OW, OM, MM, MW or just someone passing on by who felt like offering their advice.

 

Alot of the bickering IS personal between various members. And that gets contagious, spreads into other threads. If we all just stopped and made an effort, ask yourself is it really worth taking a shot at someone, for what? Think about it.

 

I always say there's a BIG difference between harsh and rude advice. Harsh advice is a reality kick. Using rude words and being disrespectful isn't cool and it isn't helpful.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

I think the bolded is SIGNIFICANT! the cause of many and major problems. We don't like the advice others give, so we criticize them and pick it apart, why it's wrong.

 

If we could put all personal competitions aside and just accept that other posters are going to advise differently than me, and let it be up to the OP to choose what s/he deems helpful - that would a great place

to start! To let each person post his/her own truth would go a long, long way.

 

But the bigger question, the ones I asked that started this thread, go beyond the scope of just letting everyone post their own truth.

 

I care about Jennie-Jennie as a person. I want only good things in her life. I want to be supportive of her when she has tough days. Guess I'm somewhat Pollyanna-ish in that way - I want good in everyone's life. (everyone except my xbf/mm. I haven't felt bad for him yet )

 

BUT, when I believe that an A is wrong, both morally, ethically, and based on my religious beliefs, when I can't condone it because people are gonna be hurt - it's just a matter of which ones - how can I be supportive of the person, without compromising what I believe is terribly wrong and hurtful to at least some, if not all, the persons involved? How do I say I love you, I don't want you to hurt or suffer harm, but I think what you're participating in is just crap - how do I do that? How do I give life-affirming support to the person?

[anne1707]

I didn't bring up cancer, LB did. I wouldn't have used it as a comparison.

 

I said that you don't know what it feels like to have cancer yourself until you have it.

 

I would rather use a comparison like child birth. You can know a heck a lot about it, you can have been there and witnessed many births. But you don't really know what it feels like until you have given birth to a child yourself.

 

No offense meant, Anne.

 

But LB's post was arguing for the ability to provide support and advice whilst you said it was not possible. Sorry but I do find that offensive. How can you really suggest that none of us can advise others unless we have been there in that exact situation whatever it may be?

[jennie-jennie]

Just a little head's up, or a PS: MY father died of cancer. Enough said, not going to react, but reading what you wrote...that wasn't very pleasent.

 

This is unbelievable! This happens all the time! Someone says something, then I respond to it, and I get the blame!

 

I have gone through chemotherapy. Are you saying that you know how that feels?