Respect others' choices

[jennie-jennie]

Just like engaging in an affair, it is your choice to share on LS. If you choose to not share because you fear the reaction you will get, well that is also your choice. No matter what you want, some of us will never respect the choice to have an affair.

 

If that means you don't get the respect you desire, well that is our choice. Again, goes both ways here and IRL. If you say that you don't need our respect, then why start threads like this in the first place?

 

This thread started as a discussion between FOG and I which originated from the fact that FOG had read posts by an unapologetic OW on another forum which were very different from the posts the OW posted on LS. Here it was all sunshine and roses, on the other forum it was heartache and agony. This led to FOG posing questions which I found interesting about how someone like FOG could support someone like me:

 

Originally Posted by Fieldsofgold

Here is my question for you. How do I give you moral support and encouragement for your difficult times, when I think what you're doing is going to hurt you? How do I console or comfort you on a bad day, without encouraging you to stay in what I think is a harmful relationship?

[Lauriebell82]

The point of this thread is to figure out if there is any way an anti-affair poster can give an OW who has decided to stay in the EMR support without violating their own values.

 

 

I think many "anti-affair" posters do give valuable support all the time without violating their own values.

 

The problem is, IMO, it's not the type of support you desire. My question is: Is it possible for you to look beyond what you consider support and accept that others may have a different view on what they consider support?

 

I think you should ask yourself this bolded part. What type of support DO you desire? To accept that you are having an A and to advise you to stay and see what happens? Anti-affair posters are never going to do that. So those who chose to stay in A are going to read some things they don't nessessarily want to hear...but maybe they need to hear it.

 

To tell you the truth I don't think there is all that much "bashing" going on, I think that OW want a place to go where nobody will try to tell them what they are doing is wrong. That place is NOT LS.

[herenow]

This thread started as a discussion between FOG and I which originated from the fact that FOG had read posts by an unapologetic OW on another forum which were very different from the posts the OW posted on LS. Here it was all sunshine and roses, on the other forum it was heartache and agony. This led to FOG posing questions which I found interesting about how someone like FOG could support someone like me:

 

What is it you want from this thread?

 

Again, I think many "anti-affair" posters do give valuable support all the time without violating their own values.

 

The problem is, IMO, it's not the type of support you desire. My question is: Is it possible for you to look beyond what you consider support and accept that others may have a different view on what they consider support?

[harmfulsweetz]

 

I think you should ask yourself this bolded part. What type of support DO you desire? To accept that you are having an A and to advise you to stay and see what happens? Anti-affair posters are never going to do that. So those who chose to stay in A are going to read some things they don't nessessarily want to hear...but maybe they need to hear it.

 

To tell you the truth I don't think there is all that much "bashing" going on, I think that OW want a place to go where nobody will try to tell them what they are doing is wrong. That place is NOT LS.

 

That's a good point. I think people sometimes post on here, expecting it to be OW/OMs only posting and that they would somehow 'swap notes' or whatever you like to call it. "The blind leading the blind."

 

No one on LS is going to cheerlead, encourage an A. Just like no one on LS or anywhere would encourage an abusive relationship, we always discourage As and such. IRL it is the same way. Many people who are OW/OM turn to internet forums for support because they can't turn to their real life friends because of the trouble it would cause.

 

I personally wouldn't see the point of LS if all it was about were people condoning, agreeing with the actions of others and offering no other sides. You can get that from a pet, or a really, agreeable friend. Mainly a pet.

[OWoman]

OW, thanks for your response. I guess I don't really grasp what 'EAR' means, or how it would actually apply to the man who is proud of beating his wife, and who does not want to stop beating his wife. I don't mean this as a nasty comparison at all - I understand how you used it in your example. If Jennie wanted to get out of the affair, but kept going back I could see how to apply that. But she's content where she is and doesn't want it to be different, so how would that apply?

 

When someone - like the nasty wifebeater - comes in or phones for counselling, he is indicating that he's in crisis. Something isn't working for him - whatever it is. Helping him explore that, and look at ways to address it, might lead to him questioning his beating of his wife, even if it goes via the route of his own narrow self-interest, in making his own life happier. I guess it's premised on some notion that happy, healthy, well-adjusted people won't beat their wives... but sure, there is a risk that all you'll get are a bunch of happy, self-content wifebeaters.

 

(TBH, it was that kind of concern that led to me leaving that organisation and going instead to counsell for a women's organisation that focused only on battered women, rape survivors and adult survivors of child sexual abuse.)

 

In the case of an unapologetic OW - and I'm not thinking of anyone in particuar; it could just as easily be me - they are posting here because

 

* they're trying to offer support to someone else;

* they're discussing or debating an issue intellectually; OR

* they're looking for support themselves, in some way, about some issue.

 

The third option is the relevant one here. If they are looking for support, then ascertaining what the issue is can help to focus a response. If, say, an unapologetic OW is wondering whether or not her MM going on holiday with his BW and kids - given his expressed intention to separate soon - might send mixed messages to the BW and create false hope (FTR, that was what one of my first threads was about), then focusing on the situation from whatever angle would be directly helpful - e.g. a BS communicating whether or not they would have found it to create false hope; an OW who'd lived through her MM going on holiday with his BW and kids posting about what effects she noted on the R afterward; an observer commenting on what their common sense tells them may be the outcome. Less directly helpful would be questions about whether or not the MM had actually communicated his intention to leave to the BS; questions about whether or not the MM was likely to re-engage with his BS during the holiday; or questions about whether the holiday indicated that the M was not as bad as the OW was led to believe.

 

I say "less directly helpful" from the perception of the OW posting: that's not what she asked about; not that reflecting on those issues may not help her - and indeed they might, particularly if she's been fed a load of lines from the MM and hasn't questioned whether or not they're credible - but from the perspective of what she posted, she may not see it as such (or not at the time, anyway). How helpful those questions prove will depend in large measure how they're phrased. If they say, you idiot! How could you possibly believe that? That slimeball is going to take his darling W to her dream destination and make wild and passionate love to her every night while you sit alone at home, waiting for a sad quick text sent from a public toilet!... the response is more likely to be defensive or outright hostile; while a response that probes the basis for her believing that her MM has communicated his intentions to his W (and not, "you believe that lying POS???") may resonate more.

 

Responses which tell her she's a whore and shouldn't be screwing some other woman's man are unlikely to be perceived as helpful in any way.

 

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term "critical friends" (in action research), but essentially they're people who interrogate what you're doing with a view to helping you improve your practice - much like an older teacher sitting in on the lesson of a noob, and giving feedback after the class. Their role is not to diss what you're doing; nor is their role to tell you how great you are. Their role is to help you - as a friend - improve (the "critical" bit) what you're doing to make it even better. But it starts from the basis of wanting to help someone to improve their practice - not from wanting to tell someone they're shyte. Some posters do this instinctively; others are so consumed by their own outrage that all they can see is how wrong it all seems to themselves.

 

(please, everyone, these are sincere questions. Maybe dumb, but sincere.)

 

Nope, not dumb. Very apposite.

[herenow]

I personally wouldn't see the point of LS if all it was about were people condoning, agreeing with the actions of others and offering no other sides. You can get that from a pet, or a really, agreeable friend. Mainly a pet.

 

Right. The great thing about LS is that everyone is welcome to post as long as they adhere to the mods guidelines. Not JJ's guidelines, the mods guidelines.

 

Affairs can cause real pain to all involved. Sometimes the harsh posts are from that POV. When a person asks someone to mask their own pain so that their own feelings are not hurt, they are asking to hide the real life effects of an affair.

 

IMO, keeping it real is the best support one can give. But, that's my opinion and I respect others to disagree. That does not mean my opinion will change in any way. What one person considers "bashing", another may consider support.

[Lauriebell82]

Responses which tell her she's a whore and shouldn't be screwing some other woman's man are unlikely to be perceived as helpful in any way.

 

This IMO, would be bashing. I see very little of this in the OW/OM forum. There are "harshish" responses, and things that OW clearly don't want to read that often get perceived as "bashing." If the only people who posted in the OW forum were active OW, then I don't think they would get as much help or responses. A thread full of "he's going to leave his wife, believe him and trust him" wouldn't be much help because what if that isn't the situation? What if the MM IS lying to her, and it's clear that he is. Therefore an OW who hears that may just be in for additional pain.

[Fieldsofgold]

Others may have a different view on what they consider support?

 

What we each view as support may ne part of the problem. I have a girl in my group, young adult, of late has started sleeping with every guy around, has started using drugs.

 

I try to give her support. When she's devastated, I sit and listen and hold her. I love her dearly - I also try to get her to realize how harmful her choices right now really are. I encourage her to think about the future she may be creating for herself.

 

Not unlike my idea of support I sometimes/often give here.

 

BTW, Jennie, I appreciate that you have shared some of the realities and difficulties you face.

 

I think sometimes when you make everything sound so totally perfect, it doesn't sound real to people. They think you are faking, and they are less supportive/more likely antagonistic than they might otherwise be.

[OWoman]

This IMO, would be bashing. I see very little of this in the OW/OM forum. There are "harshish" responses, and things that OW clearly don't want to read that often get perceived as "bashing."

 

The reason you see very little of it is because Tony deletes those posts when they appear. There are fewer now than there used to be - my first few threads were deleted for exactly that reason - people posting such comments in such abundance that it was too much effort to weed out the toxic posts from the rest, so the whole thread was wiped out.

 

If the only people who posted in the OW forum were active OW, then I don't think they would get as much help or responses. A thread full of "he's going to leave his wife, believe him and trust him" wouldn't be much help because what if that isn't the situation? What if the MM IS lying to her, and it's clear that he is. Therefore an OW who hears that may just be in for additional pain.

 

To assume that OWs just blow sunshine up each others' arses is completely bizarre! If you read what OWs post on other OW threads, you'll see that there is as much challenging and calling for reflection from OWs as their is from non-toxic others. The amount of hate speech and "telling the OW what (someone thinks) she wants to hear" are probably closer in volume, and repesent the extremes at both ends of the spectrum.

[pureinheart]

Someday, Jennie wrote she wanted her choices to be "respected even if not agreed with" and you're talking about her wanting her choices to be agreed with. Really, it would be nice to at least put the minimum effort into reading and understanding what someone wrote, instead of just wanting to put one's point across without caring about the subject.

 

I'll give an example. Say an OW starts a thread in which she describes her current situation. She is waiting for MM's response reagrding something and she needs advice, opinions and support on how long she should wait and what she should do meanwhile to alleviate her anxiety.

 

She's made up her mind about the way she's going to deal with her R with MM and for the time being she does not want to end it, she wants to find out a few things first before she makes her final decision. She's not ready to end it yet, she wants to do it at her own pace and take certain steps in certain order, and she's now dealing with this particular issue.

 

But her thread soon becomes overflown with posts, in which others condemn her R because it's an A and / or tell her that the only way forward it to go NC right now and it's all for her own good.

 

She's not getting much help with her most pressing issue and obvioulsy her choices and feelings are not respected. The message she's getting is that her own choices and feelings are not important or they're wrong and she needs to disregard them and start acting in accordance to other people's views and ideas and that will be the right thing to do.

 

She might end up feeling belittled and misunderstood and find herself having to spend a lot of time and energy to explain and defend her choices and ways of dealing with her own situation, instead of receiving support with what she has asked. She might end up feeling even more confused and question her own feelings and judgements. This would obvioulsy cause quite a lot of emotional discomfort on top of everything that she's going through.

 

It's a regular occurrence on this forum. If someone doesn't have any advice regarding another member's particular question or situation, why do the have the need to respond and derail the whole thing in the all predictable direction of NC and how As are wrong and hurtful?

 

This is really well said, and really true. I think it's evident that the OM/OW "knows" they are in an A already, so I have to wonder why there is the need to tell this "wayward" person the ways they can get out of what they don't want to to begin with.

[herenow]

The reason you see very little of it is because Tony deletes those posts when they appear. There are fewer now than there used to be - my first few threads were deleted for exactly that reason - people posting such comments in such abundance that it was too much effort to weed out the toxic posts from the rest, so the whole thread was wiped out.

 

Exactly, so what you see (that is not deleted) adheres to the LS guidelines. As long as LS feels it's OK, they it should be OK.

 

It has been said many times that not all posts will support everyone. So, (and this has been said many times) take what helps you and leave the rest for someone else who may find t supportive.

 

I have had reactions to posts in the past that have called me "bitter", only to get a PM from an OW thanking me for the post.

[pureinheart]

This IMO, would be bashing. I see very little of this in the OW/OM forum. There are "harshish" responses, and things that OW clearly don't want to read that often get perceived as "bashing." If the only people who posted in the OW forum were active OW, then I don't think they would get as much help or responses. A thread full of "he's going to leave his wife, believe him and trust him" wouldn't be much help because what if that isn't the situation? What if the MM IS lying to her, and it's clear that he is. Therefore an OW who hears that may just be in for additional pain.

 

LB, most of the time the extreme bashing gets deleted. I have seen some HORRIBLE things said and then will go to the thread the next day and find them gone. The only way to tell is if they have been quoted.

 

From what I've read from you, you know how to say it right, without those little words thrown in to cause either sarcasm, hate or both.

 

Personally, I think some post to work out their own issues "through" the OP at the expense of the OPer.

 

Take care LB:)

[pureinheart]

Oh...sorry for the duplicate...OWoman covered the deleting of bashing posts...

[jennie-jennie]

 

I think you should ask yourself this bolded part. What type of support DO you desire? To accept that you are having an A and to advise you to stay and see what happens? Anti-affair posters are never going to do that. So those who chose to stay in A are going to read some things they don't nessessarily want to hear...but maybe they need to hear it.

 

To tell you the truth I don't think there is all that much "bashing" going on, I think that OW want a place to go where nobody will try to tell them what they are doing is wrong. That place is NOT LS.

 

The type of support I am talking about in this thread is not about "advise you to stay and see what happens". It is about: How do we get the OW who choose to stay in an EMR to open up and tell of the difficulties they are having so we can support them with these difficulties without violating our own values?

[NoLongerSad]

You're confusing "support" with "enable."

[herenow]

The type of support I am talking about in this thread is not about "advise you to stay and see what happens". It is about: How do we get the OW who choose to stay in an EMR to open up and tell of the difficulties they are having so we can support them with these difficulties?

 

You can't get anyone to do anything if they don't want to. The choice to open up is just that, a choice.

 

If anyone, including an OW who chooses to stay in an affair, chooses to not open up on an anonymous forum, who is to blame for that?

[jennie-jennie]

You can't get anyone to do anything if they don't want to. The choice to open up is just that, a choice.

 

If anyone, including an OW who chooses to stay in an affair, chooses to not open up on an anonymous forum, who is to blame for that?

 

Well then, if there is nothing we can do, then why does an OW paint a picture of sunshine and roses on LS and a picture of heartache and agony on another site? Are you saying it only has to do with the OW, not with the site in question?

[herenow]

Well then, if there is nothing we can do, then why does an OW paint a picture of sunshine and roses on LS and a picture of heartache and agony on another site? Are you saying it only has to do with the OW, not with the site in question?

 

I can't tell you why anyone does what they do especially when I don't even know the person. I'm saying the poster is the one who makes their own choice on what to post and where.

Edited November 23, 2010 by herenow

[Silly_Girl]

You say that, but then it seems a lot of tattling to tony goes on here because people don't want to hear others truths. Tony doesn't just read and give infractions. He gives infractions when someone TATTLES. It is so silly as adults to run and tattle that someone hurt your feelings.

 

Oh god yes. I've reported 3 posts. One was really offensive (cussing and name-calling) and 2 were spam and I don't need to make my penis bigger (or whatever they were for) so I reported them. I for one HATE the snitching.

[Lauriebell82]

Well then, if there is nothing we can do, then why does an OW paint a picture of sunshine and roses on LS and a picture of heartache and agony on another site? Are you saying it only has to do with the OW, not with the site in question?

 

You can't save everyone JJ, and it seems that you feel you have to "protect" OW, that's why you stand up for them in threads and argue with non-OW like myself. I know you want to turn LS into a "safe place" for OW where there is no danger that anyone will try to tell them having an A is wrong or immoral...but that isn't reality either. I think it was stated before that most OW turn to internet sites because they are so fearful of reactions from their family and friends. Most OW who turn to LS (to start threads/ask for advice) are not happy and would like insight and feedback. It's important that the feedback have variety, therefore giving the OW options and things to think about.

 

Jennie, you will NEVER be able to prevent riffraff from taking place on LS. Tony can't even do it. This site is what is is. This site is OPTIONAL, if an OW doesn't like what she hears then she can turn elsewhere for support or help.

 

I'm really not sure what you are after, but I don't think this site is going to change the way you want it to unfortunately.

[pureinheart]

The type of support I am talking about in this thread is not about "advise you to stay and see what happens". It is about: How do we get the OW who choose to stay in an EMR to open up and tell of the difficulties they are having so we can support them with these difficulties without violating our own values?

 

I am brought back to the beginnings of my past unique situation with exDM.

 

The circumstances were not how I wanted them to be, although we were helping each other. Thank God I had my Godmother to talk to. The issues I encountered were much like any other relationship and at times were compounded with his issues with the M (W, kids etc) and those problems.

 

With or without the M exDM had some really serious issues that were very difficult to deal with. It's been so long that I don't remember the exact feelings, although he was my best friend and I loved him dearly. I was severely traumatised by A LOT of things that had gone on in my life...I felt dead before we got together and I felt more than alive during our A.

 

Selfish is a word thrown around a lot here, well aren't we all. Selfish or not he was a gift to me and I a gift to him...we helped each other through difficult times, he's D'ed now and free, I wish him the best and I hope he wishes me the same.

 

How to give support when you don't agree...just listen....

[pureinheart]

You can't save everyone JJ, and it seems that you feel you have to "protect" OW, that's why you stand up for them in threads and argue with non-OW like myself. I know you want to turn LS into a "safe place" for OW where there is no danger that anyone will try to tell them having an A is wrong or immoral...but that isn't reality either. I think it was stated before that most OW turn to internet sites because they are so fearful of reactions from their family and friends. Most OW who turn to LS (to start threads/ask for advice) are not happy and would like insight and feedback. It's important that the feedback have variety, therefore giving the OW options and things to think about.

 

Jennie, you will NEVER be able to prevent riffraff from taking place on LS. Tony can't even do it. This site is what is is. This site is OPTIONAL, if an OW doesn't like what she hears then she can turn elsewhere for support or help.

 

I'm really not sure what you are after, but I don't think this site is going to change the way you want it to unfortunately.

 

In bold LB...this is how I feel, having been there, knowing the pain firsthand.

 

Second bold, it used to be safe, and I hope it returns to that state.

[Lauriebell82]

 

Second bold, it used to be safe, and I hope it returns to that state.

 

What do you mean "safe?" Like nobody was bashing or nobody was disagreeing, or both?

[Silly_Girl]

Exactly, so what you see (that is not deleted) adheres to the LS guidelines. As long as LS feels it's OK, they it should be OK.

 

It has been said many times that not all posts will support everyone. So, (and this has been said many times) take what helps you and leave the rest for someone else who may find t supportive.

 

I have had reactions to posts in the past that have called me "bitter", only to get a PM from an OW thanking me for the post.

 

However, re the bolded, if mainly a certain style of poster reports posts and others do not you end up with a skewed view on the board. That's my personal experience of more than a couple of threads. It's a real shame.

[Silly_Girl]

I have two issues currently, with my relationship, neither are dealbreakers, that I would sit and discuss over coffee with friends. And would love to discuss here.

 

One is a generic, insignificant new R/distance R thing and one is more of an OW thing. No way on earth would I post them on here. And yes, that is my choice, and my problem. But I have seen some well-meaning anti-affair posters make enormous assumptions about posters and their circumstances and get close to what I would call preaching, and others outright make up lies. There can be, at times, a gang mentality. Little side jokes and high-fiving of buddies.

 

I am happy (I say happy... possibly an exaggeration ) to be challenged on my thinking/actions, and I enjoy posts that get me thinking more deeply. Silverplanets springs to mind - he's learned his own lessons, and his posts are caring yet pointed and assertive and he will put posters on the spot. Without being sarcastic or insulting.

 

Some posts from anti-A members sound like this to me 'I don't like you.... but you must listen to what I am telling you'. Immediately the obstacle is there. Virtually nothing posted after the judgement will be noticed or valued. That's why I don't understand certain posters repeating their 'get a single guy then you fool!' type posts. There's definitely a better way. And I don't think LS is a million miles away.