Respect others' choices

[pureinheart]

When I see an OW hurting, I try to encourage her to find happiness. If she is NOT content to remain the mistress and that is all that is offered to her, why would ANYONE encourage her to "hang in there"? why would anyone want to watch another person be in so much pain?

 

I think this thread has been beat to death. I am sure another one just like it will pop up in a few months

 

I use this term and have since I can remember, so in the event you are referring to me when I use this term...when I say this AND it is obvious according to the context of the reply that hang in there, means be cool, stay cool. I would never advice for a poster to stay in an abusive R....ever!!!!!!

[pureinheart]

Sky pixie??? Sky pixie??? The bolded . . . "sky pixie" . . . Is that a reference to G-d?

 

Are you referring to the deity that someone else holds sacred as a "sky pixie"?????

 

And you want to be treated with respect??? You want people to treat others with differing values and belief systems with respect???

 

 

I took the statement to mean that the poster(s) are using God, or G-d out of context.

 

Yeah, but a lot of us (including me) do not want to condone or encourage an OW to knowingly continue an A. It's something that I won't do. If the OW decides she is going to stay I will not condone or encourage that, I will try to capitalize on something else she has said. I will never tell someone to do something that is hurting them or someone else. And yes, affairs hurt OW even though they don't always want to admit it. Who wants to spend time with someone they love and then have them go home to their wife? That to me would just be heart wrenching. But to each their own.

 

Now will I pressure the OW to leave after she has decided to stay? No. But I won't encourage or condone the decision.

 

I think this goes back to the definition of "support."

 

I didn't say to condone it, and this thread (OP) doesn't suggest to condone it....ok I see where the confusion is...one doesn't have to support "the action", although they can support the person...like in bold...this is what I do. I find that I loose a person once I start lecturing or judging, they close up and that's it...find something to keep them talking and feeling safe to go deeper so that root issues can be reached...to me that's more important than the symtoms.

[Silly_Girl]

That's your opinion, not a fact.

 

Happy to be proved wrong.

[jennie-jennie]

But Jennie, like we have tried to point out, MAYBE it's not a wise choice to stay in the A and MAYBE it is hurting them. MAYBE the support they need is to challenged and to point out discrepancies in thinking. I'm not saying that they should be pressured to leave the A, but at least challenged. Again, back to the drug analogy. Nobody REALLY wants to quit drugs, but I'm not going to knowingly tell them to go ahead and use. They NEED to hear disagreement in order to stop using.

 

Here we very much disagree. I don't know this, but it seems to me like you may be working with interventions? In that case that could explain the difference in thinking between you and I. I myself am heavily influenced by Al-Anon and AA, where they teach that once you have shown the road to sobriety you should let go. You show it ONCE, then let go. There is no point of continuing to rub it in. Quite the opposite, it only makes you, the non-alcoholic, more obsessed, and the alcoholic more defensive.

[jennie-jennie]

But Jennie, like we have tried to point out, MAYBE it's not a wise choice to stay in the A and MAYBE it is hurting them. MAYBE the support they need is to challenged and to point out discrepancies in thinking. I'm not saying that they should be pressured to leave the A, but at least challenged. Again, back to the drug analogy. Nobody REALLY wants to quit drugs, but I'm not going to knowingly tell them to go ahead and use. They NEED to hear disagreement in order to stop using.

 

I've been the SO of a compulsive gambler for decades. He knows about Gamblers Anonymous. He knows my opinion of gambling. There is no point in continuing to disagree with him about this. If I do what I do is provide him with a scapegoat to blame his loses on.

[jennie-jennie]

Exactly. If an OW losing 20 pounds, on 3 different meds, unhappy, depressed and not functioning, all because the A is taking a toll on her in such a negative and physical way, it's time to end it so the suffering can end. Love shouldn't be that hard to get, and when it f.*cks you up like that, it's time to say goodbye. To me, and this is just my opinion, I would never encourage an OW to hang on longer, to see what happens even though she loved her MM.

 

The problem might not be the EMR itself, but indeed the OW's approach to the relationship. She needs to accept the reality of the relationship, and decide whether it is for her or not.

 

I've seen wives come in like you described above to Al-Anon, totally obsessed with their husbands' drinking. The key is to let go of your obsessiveness, not necessarily the relationship.

[pureinheart]

But Jennie, like we have tried to point out, MAYBE it's not a wise choice to stay in the A and MAYBE it is hurting them. MAYBE the support they need is to challenged and to point out discrepancies in thinking. I'm not saying that they should be pressured to leave the A, but at least challenged. Again, back to the drug analogy. Nobody REALLY wants to quit drugs, but I'm not going to knowingly tell them to go ahead and use. They NEED to hear disagreement in order to stop using.

 

Here we very much disagree. I don't know this, but it seems to me like you may be working with interventions? In that case that could explain the difference in thinking between you and I. I myself am heavily influenced by Al-Anon and AA, where they teach that once you have shown the road to sobriety you should let go. You show it ONCE, then let go. There is no point of continuing to rub it in. Quite the opposite, it only makes you, the non-alcoholic, more obsessed, and the alcoholic more defensive.

 

Hi LB, I disagree on this one also. People will tune a person out if they feel badgered, it could be the most calm communication ever known to man, yet if they have heard it already, they have already determined their road for that point in time in their life...speaking of drugs specifically, I think using is a symtom to many things...I believe A's are a symtom or result of a bad M or past. Certainly it may be "out of order" or out of context in the way others think it should be, although it is what has happened to/for that particular person.

 

When I was in some serious coucelling, I was not working at the time and could devote 40 plus hours a week on my recovery. It was at a church and the program was "Marriage Restoration", it was actually to restore one back to God.

 

The first thing they said I needed to do was to quit smoking (it was an outward "sin") (I also want to note that I am not condemning this particular church or teaching, as it does work for some)...I heard by the Spirit that smoking was not the problem, it was my heart, that the smoking was the last on Gods agenda to deal with me.

 

My point is, that the outward things that "we" feel is the problem usually is not, it's usually a symtom to some very deep issues. FTR, I quit smoking 2 and 1/2 years ago, the MR was in 1993.

[OWoman]

Sky pixie??? Sky pixie??? The bolded . . . "sky pixie" . . . Is that a reference to G-d?

 

If I'd meant god, or All'ah, or Yahweh, I'd have said so. Perhaps I should have said "their favourite imaginary friend" instead... I was referring to posters who claim a "deity" (or some other entity they invest with religious significance) to justify some pretty wacky and potentially harmful views which could lead to real suffering for people should they follow those uncritically. FoG, your tolerance of others' religious views may hold that all beliefs are equally valid and equally deserving of respect, and if so, I can respect that and take my hat off to you - but it's not a view I can confess to sharing. There is a fine line, IMO, between some religious beliefs and some religious delusions. The religion of Charles Manson's "family", or the voices of Son of Sam that told him to murder were not, I believe, worthy of the kind of respect that Hinduism or Islam or Shinto, say, warrant. They are the IMO the rather dangerous beliefs of some individuals who use their "convictions" to advocate, and execute, potentially harmful actions.

 

Claiming religious grounds for advocating damaging behaviour doesn't let someone off the hook, IMO.

[OWoman]

Yet you are the first to tell an OW who is not feeling respected or who is cow-towing to a MM to stand up for herself. I guess I am confused -- which is it? Isn't it about women demanding respect PERIOD in any relationship?

 

I genuinely don't understand how you read what I wrote (below) as contradicting that?

 

..but even back then, people referred to the "old days" when there was a supportive community of OWs. Most of those have moved on - TC, JNRR, OE, Frannie, and others - which may in part explain why some of us who are no longer OWs feel the need to pop in here still and speak up for the invisible OWs who are too daunted to open their mouths. Even though I am no longer an OW, it's part of my history and so part of what made me who I am, and I am not going to allow that to be whitewashed or rendered invisible as long as there are other OWs still needing the space in which to speak. So, I guess, it's become more of a political than a personal quest for me.

 

No idea why some OW don't post, but just because they don't post doesn't mean they don't get what they need from the site. Do you know for a fact that OW are here but are too daunted to speak? Again, is that putting down the site that Tony works so hard to maintain?

 

Yes, I do know that for a fact - I get enough PMs and emails from OWs saying exactly that.

 

And no, it's no slight on Tony - it's a comment on the nature of the interactions between posters on LS, not on the moderation. I'm sure Tony would also far rather see everyone stick to the TOS.

[OWoman]

When I see an OW hurting, I try to encourage her to find happiness. If she is NOT content to remain the mistress and that is all that is offered to her, why would ANYONE encourage her to "hang in there"? why would anyone want to watch another person be in so much pain?

 

I have never seen any OW on LS tell any other OW to remain in an A that was causing her pain. Please provide examples.

 

As someone who has myself used the term "hang in there", I'd guess that if someone was referring to that as meaning "stay in something that's damaging you", that is a blatant misunderstanding of the term. "Hang in there" means, "keep your chin up", or "don't give up on yourself", or "strength"... or suchlike, as would have been abundantly clear from the context in which it was used.

[OWoman]

All you are saying is that you think the entire world around you should buy into your affair, whether they think it's healthy or not; otherwise they're not "supporting" you.

 

I've never seen any OW wanting this. Please provide examples.

[OWoman]

No one, and it's not at all what happens on this board.

 

Agree. I've never seen the behaviour that is being claimed, and would be interested in what examples are being claimed to represent this.

[OWoman]

You regard yourself as having been "empowered"?

 

Of course! I am certainly an empowered woman. Whether my As contributed directly to that or not, I couldn't say without a closer analysis of all the contextual factors at the time - but they certainly did not disempower me. They were at worst empowerment neutral, or empowering.

[OWoman]

Exactly. If an OW losing 20 pounds, on 3 different meds, unhappy, depressed and not functioning, all because the A is taking a toll on her in such a negative and physical way, it's time to end it so the suffering can end. Love shouldn't be that hard to get, and when it f.*cks you up like that, it's time to say goodbye. To me, and this is just my opinion, I would never encourage an OW to hang on longer, to see what happens even though she loved her MM.

 

Sure. If an OW is suffering through her A, or a MW through her M, or any other woman through her R, as you mentioned, then she should certainly be encouraged to get out. I would agree with that.

 

But where an OW is happy and energised and empowered through her A - even if she has occasional moments of doubt or incidents of irritation - why encourage her to through the baby out with the bathwater? Ought one to encourage every MW to D the minute her H left his dirty socks lying on the floor?

[OWoman]

If we gave support for the person needing support as just another person, then we couldn't go far wrong. I mean that if someone is hurting, I can empathise with their hurt, or is having a tough time, then I can try to provide support about that. I find it hard to support someone who is in a situation of their choosing that is problematic, without some bias.

 

As an XBS, my experience of A's is tied up with hurt, pain, betrayal and dis respect. No happy, clappy, wonderful times, just pain. To expect that I (general) could read about how someone is enabling another WS to hurt another BS is difficult, to be told that the WS says x,y,or Z about their marriage while actually doing a,b,or c and then to be told that the x,y,z is the truth doesn't compute. To read that the BS is supposedly living in cloud la la land and that they don't understand the person they live with day by day for years, baffles.

 

For BS coming to LS to get insight, support or understanding, just reading all the A stuff hurts, so they try to stick to Infidelity forum, but even that has a plethora of hurtful posts, so over time you learn to ignore those posts, but in the early days you don't get the feel of the forum or certain posters views and so many BS scuttle off.

 

I can understand the pain many OW/OM feel, I have felt pain at being with someone I love. I don't condone or support A's, but I hope I can support the person. I would just like to see that support going both ways, it rarely does, but sometimes it does.

I don't get why people try to persuade Jennie that she is doing something wrong when she has clearly stated that she is happy with her situation. If people cannot accept that, well they will just be wasting their time. I don't agree with the A, but I respect her stand that it works for her. I would see it as selfish behaviour in myself, but that would be me talking about me. I don't always (rarely) agree with all the I know my (?) MM better than his wife thing, we all know people differently and we aren't always sure of which face being presented is the true face. But there you go.

 

If LS were to change into a ra ra sight for OW/OM then I think I would miss the understanding and support I have received from many an OW/OM and also gaining insight into A dynamics. Most of my PM's are from OW/OM. When you have been so hurt you thought you would die from it it and seen your children suffer because of it, is very hard to be objective, whatever side of the fence you sit, often people just want to provide their experience to prevent that hurt, often people who are happy in A's cannot see that it is possible for a marriage or relationship to appear happy, for the WS be the same happy loving person during the A to the BS - for the BS who has lived this, the capacity to support the OP would require a whole lot of out of bodyness(?).

 

Perhaps the answer is to support when asked, if there is, or cannot be any constructive support, then don't respond. I don't get the name calling, uncalled for and unnecessary, nor the gloating. There are websites for back patting or hating on the internet. Incidentally JJ, the OW/OM website is accepting new members, I just hope that you choose to stay here, while I don't agree with your take on A's nor your style (sometimes) I respect your right to say what you do.

(Apologies for JJ for writing about her and using her as an example)

 

Apologies to seren for using her as an example, but this post (and many of her others) illustrate the generosity, maturity and compassion that does allow some fBSs to provide support to OWs even if they don't condone As.

[Ellin]

I was an OW too, but it sure as hell doesn't define me. NO WAY.

It's interesting that you've mentioned that.

 

You've surely defined yourself in that way on LS, though, by the choice of your username, no?

[bentnotbroken]

It's interesting that you've mentioned that.

 

You've surely defined yourself in that way on LS, though, by the choice of your username, no?

 

 

No. User name????:confused:How is that a definition of a person?

[whichwayisup]

I have never seen any OW on LS tell any other OW to remain in an A that was causing her pain. Please provide examples.

 

There is one, recently actually within the past couple of weeks. An OW A ended, she was hurting, fed up, done.. In NC, exMM contacted her after many weeks of NC and she willing went back to the A, albeit she said she was going to be more aware, but she wanted it. Sorry, but I was one who told her she was making a mistake by choosing to go back to the A, as did many others, including alot of OW. There was one OW who DID encourage her to follow her heart and give it a try, given the bad stuff that recently happened and led to the break up. If you truly need to me to find that post and thread, I will, but it's easy to figure it out.

[whichwayisup]

It's interesting that you've mentioned that.

 

You've surely defined yourself in that way on LS, though, by the choice of your username, no?

 

I don't get it. ??

 

People's usernames don't define them as a person or human being.

[Silly_Girl]

There is one, recently actually within the past couple of weeks. An OW A ended, she was hurting, fed up, done.. In NC, exMM contacted her after many weeks of NC and she willing went back to the A, albeit she said she was going to be more aware, but she wanted it. Sorry, but I was one who told her she was making a mistake by choosing to go back to the A, as did many others, including alot of OW. There was one OW who DID encourage her to follow her heart and give it a try, given the bad stuff that recently happened and led to the break up. If you truly need to me to find that post and thread, I will, but it's easy to figure it out.

 

WWIU, I have been back through the infamous thread I believe you are referring to...

 

I have found the following quotes to the OP before it turned in to a bitch-fest.

 

I agree with GEL, the good news here is that you are fully aware what and who you are getting. Beating yourself up wont help you do what is best for you. Just stay aware and take him for what he is. Do your best not to believe anoything he says and just enjoy time together. Stay focused in the present. You will go NC again when you can and we will be here to help, no judgment.

The benefits outweigh the consequences. You've done the calculation. Now enjoy, with eyes wide open. Sounds good to me

I think that's the bottom line here. It really is a different process for everyone, even if things appear the same. She has got to work it out at her own pace and seeks our support. I think those posters who are saying, hey, stop it, you are worth more! mean really well, but I also think that those of us who are supporting her through it, no matter what, are just as helpful.

Well, is she had been so happy and doing so well during NC she wouldn't have fallen back into it so easily

The quotes above are the ones which, for me, came the closest to 'hey, stay with your MM, even if you're hurting'.

If you read them in context (the second is probably the most extreme) there is no one saying this particular poster should continue to accept bad treatment.

 

Yes, please do point out where there is a rationale that stays members of LS should stay with their MM regardless of the pain and suffering. FO has been asked a couple of times and hasn't yet responded.

 

This isn't a fun argument for me, I genuinely think that even those posters who go against the consensus (don't touch an MM, go NC) have the OP's best interests at heart, and it concerns me to think that what's being portrayed is that some of us don't are what a fellow member is going through, as long as they pursue their affair

[Silly_Girl]

I don't get it. ??

 

People's usernames don't define them as a person or human being.

 

They're often very representative though.

[bentnotbroken]

They're often very representative though.

 

 

They are sometimes representative of an aspect of some point along the continuum of the lives of some people. OWoman is not an OW now. She is a wife and a mother.

[Silly_Girl]

They are sometimes representative of an aspect of some point along the continuum of the lives of some people. OWoman is not an OW now. She is a wife and a mother.

 

Sorry if I've minsunderstood, I thought she was a mother prior to meeting her then-MM. So all that's changed is her marital status.

 

But I get what you're saying....

 

 

Obviously, my username was relevant back then, but now, I go by the moniker of Wise_Girl

[bentnotbroken]

Sorry if I've minsunderstood, I thought she was a mother prior to meeting her then-MM. So all that's changed is her marital status.

 

But I get what you're saying....

 

 

Obviously, my username was relevant back then, but now, I go by the moniker of Wise_Girl

 

 

She was a mother, now she is a stepmother(a term I completely hate)so in she is a new mother to some children who appeared to have needed some stability in their lives.

[pureinheart]

I don't get it. ??

 

People's usernames don't define them as a person or human being.

 

Certainly they do, my username is the meaning of my first name. A lot of peoples usernames define them or what they are feeling, no?