Creation vs. Evolution/Big Bang Theory

[sonofhud]

If you live in the US and went to public schools recently, you will have studied the theory of evolution....as well as the big bang theory. I, along with everyone else, have come up with many things to justify these theories. I watched some films over the weekend with my church group concerning the creation and why the speaker believes its true. He gave some facts ect....so I have been trying to wrestle with these ideas some. What do you think is truth? Do you believe in any of these theories and which one? Why?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sonofhud

What do you think is truth? Do you believe in any of these theories and which one? Why?

I believe in both of these theories.

 

I'm not a scientist, so I have not studied extensively either the "big bang" theory or Darwin's origin of species. I posses a basic understanding of both, but not enough to determine what you call "truth". Rather, what I know of the two make sense to me, so I've reconciled them with my thought proccess, and concluded that I'll believe in the two for the time being. The scientists who study that crap believe in it, and I trust that their judgements are more informed than mine, so I've adopted them. I'm not ready to say that such theories are true beyond any doubt, because scientists were equally sure that the world was flat not too long ago.

 

I also strongly discourage using the stories of Genesis to provide historical accounts of facts. I'm a faithful believer, and I believe that every word in the Holy Bible is true. Nevertheless, "true" as in a word for word recitation of fact is not something I've accepted. I believe that God created the world, and that humans have a soul created in the image of God. I do NOT believe that he did so in seven days, nor that we all descend from Adam and Eve. Rather, I believe that the story of Adam and Eve (almost all ancient cultures have a creation story) has a religious truth--namely that God is our father, and that the sin of making ourselves into God forever condemns us to humanity, if we see it like that.

 

In the end, the Bible is what you want it to be. If you choose to try to find fault in it, you will. If you choose to extrappolate a religious truth, coupled NOT with a blind acceptance of whatever you hear/see/read, but rather with prayer, discussion, and extrabiblical scholarship, I think that you'll get more out of it.

 

Finally, I'd just like to say that the notion of a God who does everything in terms of things we can understand is ludacris. Something separates us from God, some things we will NEVER know for certain, or even begin to comprehend during our time on Earth. Science and Religion aren't enemies, they merely provide different things. Science attempts to explain the unexplained, religion provides, at the very least, solace for the unexplainable. It would be quite lame of God to create the world with the complexity of a children's story, rather I see our beautiful, and unimaginably complex world as God's true triumph, something so perfect that it continues to work according to plan, even if we don't see it as so harmonious. The more science discovers about this world, the more I admire God's influence on it.

[Darkangelism]

I believe in both darwinism and the big bang theory.

[SoleMate]

I am quite convinced of the power of evolutionary theory to explain and predict countless findings in biology, and of the big bang theory to explain observations in geology and cosmology.

 

I am quite convinced that God is real and is the creator of the universe.

 

I am also, sadly, convinced that many faithful believers in God are threatened by the ideas of evolution and of the big bang, and will twist facts and reason to make a case that can hardly be taken seriously by a knowledgeable person.

 

I am in well-educated company in my beliefs. 'According to Newsweek in 1987, "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (or 0.15% out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science..." ' from a frame buried in http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html. So 99.85% of people who have studied this topic in a meaningful way do not believe in creation-science.

 

My question to your church leaders would be: "Why are you even bothering to teach poor science, when you should be teaching good religion?"

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by SoleMate

I am quite convinced that God is real and is the creator of the universe.

Do you believe he has an obligation to detail his methods and influence on creation in handy book form for you?

[sonofhud]

I do NOT believe that he did so in seven days, nor that we all descend from Adam and Eve.

 

K, I used to think that.....something called the gap theory. How do we know 1 day to God isnt an eternity to us....blah blah blah....God could have used evolution to create the Earth over billions of years....thus making the Earth as old as scients believe it is.

 

My questions is why don't you believe he did so in seven days? Why don't you believe we all decended from Adam and Even? The family tree ends somewhere; we all of to be decendants of only 2 people somewhere down the line.

[Tony T]

I think a lot of people were created after some kind of "big bang." Frankly, I like those myself.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sonofhud

My questions is why don't you believe he did so in seven days?

Because seven is a biblically significant number, used to convey a religious truth, rather than a scientific one. I believe time is irrelevant to God, and that he wishes some things to be discovered in faith, not determined through the reading of spiritual literature.

Why don't you believe we all decended from Adam and Even?

See above.

 

The family tree ends somewhere; we all of to be decendants of only 2 people somewhere down the line.

Hardly.

 

I don't mean to be rude, I hardly ever say this, but please read my entire intial post, and if there's anything you're unclear on, ask me questions about it. And now, a few questions for you,

 

Why do you believe that God details his every action in the Bible, in simple literary form?

Let's say the big bang theory was true, and God knew this, being behind it; How much trouble would he have spreading that story around 5000 years ago?

[sonofhud]

Why do you believe that God details his every action in the Bible, in simple literary form?

 

Well, I guess you could say our beliefs completely contradict each other. Why would God have the Bible written in any other form? We are mere human beings. He wants us to understand his word. He is not detailing his every action, only what he feels are the most important stories and facts for us to base our faith upon. Now, I do believe there are things that happen in our own lives that we will never understand, yet we know God had a part in it.

 

There are some that believe 1 day in the Bible equals 1000 years in heaven and try to convert the creation into 7000 years and all of this non sense, which I actually considered truth for a while. The actual number of days is not what is important, in my opinion. He could have done it in 1 day or an hour or a minute....whatever. My only concern is why so many people try to take the old testament or any part of the Bible and turn it into something it is not. When God says 7 days I believe he means 7 days. When he says 40 days and 40 nights, that does not mean 40,000 years of rain and flood. When Jesus rose on the 3rd day, did that really happen after 3 24-hour periods? He is giving us these time periods for specific reasons....so that we can relate.

 

Let's say the big bang theory was true, and God knew this, being behind it; How much trouble would he have spreading that story around 5000 years ago?

 

I see your point....but however he did it, was apparently not important for us to know. He said let there be light and there was light.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sonofhud

Why would God have the Bible written in any other form?

Because stories with metaphors in them are capable of transcending time.

When God says 7 days I believe he means 7 days.

God didn't say seven days. The people who wrote the stories, under his influence, used a number that was significant to their religious understanding. Research Gemitraya (sp?) and the importance of numbers to Ancient Jews.

When Jesus rose on the 3rd day, did that really happen after 3 24-hour periods?

Don't confuse the Old Testament with the New. One can believe that Adam and Eve are metaphors, and still understand the religious truth behind the Genesis story. One cannot believe that Jesus Christ, the human who walked the earth 2000 or so years ago, was a metaphor--and still call himself a Christian. Jesus was a fulfillment of the covenant of the Old Testament.

He is giving us these time periods for specific reasons....so that we can relate.

I beleive this as well. He's given us stories that we can relate to so that we can, in today's time, extrappolate a religious truth from it. Before, people had it written in their own context. Now, it's up to us.

[Stand alone]

I believe that the Big Bang Theory is not correct, nor is evolution.

 

First of all, the Big Bang is pretty much saying that "something," came out of "nothing." How can "something" come out of "nothing"? It's called Spontaneous Generation, which Louis Pasteur proved wrong in 1879.

 

This leaves us with the "Creation Theory." There must have been some "intelligent mind." The human body is so complex, that is the only answer.

 

To say that the subatomic particles got it right and "banged" everything into existence is like saying, a tornado ripped through a book-making factory, and a book was created, with the outside cover on it, and all the right pages in the right place.

 

You have to wonder...where did our laws come from? The answer is not that our forefathers, who just came up with random "good" rules. They came from the Bible. If evolution was true, and we did come from apes, life is worthless. Why not just commit suicide and get it over with?

[tattoomytoe]

i believe in a little of both...god created the basics, and humans evolved from the the primordial(sp?) sludge.

[Darkangelism]

if evolution didnt happen then how come we havnt always existed? Why are not all species created at the same time? There is quite a bit of evidence to show evolution.

[HokeyReligions]

I don't believe either, but I believe Darwin is closer to the facts about how life began. Perhaps we (human race) has not yet developed the words to describe what really started it all, and/or we simply cannot grasp the concept because it is totally foreign. I think human-kind is a curious animal which questions and is diligently seeking to find answers and perhaps those who wrote the bible and other religious texts for other beliefs were the scientists of the time trying to explain the same thing.

 

I remember a class where we all had to pretend that we did not know what rain was or where it came from and we had to write a short story explaining it. Some of the stories sounded really logical and people used other things that happen in life to support their theories--I mean, they could have convinced people that they were right. All the stories were different from each other. I think the bible and other religious texts, and Darwin too, are like that. Different people in different times from different backgrounds trying to explain the same thing. I don't think we will ever know the answer. Shoot, the life-is-a-hologram theory sounds feasible too!

[Pyrannaste]

Originally posted by Stand alone

I believe that the Big Bang Theory is not correct, nor is evolution.

 

First of all, the Big Bang is pretty much saying that "something," came out of "nothing." How can "something" come out of "nothing"? It's called Spontaneous Generation, which Louis Pasteur proved wrong in 1879.

 

This leaves us with the "Creation Theory." There must have been some "intelligent mind." The human body is so complex, that is the only answer.

 

Er.....spontaneous generation was actually a creationists's favourite.

 

 

"To say that the subatomic particles got it right and "banged" everything into existence is like saying, a tornado ripped through a book-making factory, and a book was created, with the outside cover on it, and all the right pages in the right place."

 

hey, there you go, taht's exactly how it worked.

if infinite tornadoes kept ripping thru an infinite number of book making factories for an infinite number of years, (or you put a billion of monkeys randomly typing at typewriters for infinite time)sooner or later you'd get a great book with all the right letters in the right place. If the factories are good the book might even have great illustrations and hardback cover!

 

 

You have to wonder...where did our laws come from? The answer is not that our forefathers, who just came up with random "good" rules. They came from the Bible.

 

 

It was men who made laws. Always. It is easier to make people obey laws when they are supposed to come from a superior being (one almighty God or a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses).

Altruism (helping fellow cospecifics) is useful, it gives a species more chances to survive. Now, as an example, if you take a risk while trying to save a fellow human being life, it is an useful action to mankind, but a risky action for you as a single individual. If all men were prone to help each other out, mankind would be stronger. But this is a very hypotetical scenario, as a lot of people would ask themselves: what good is to *ME* helping my fellow humans? The idea of a God watching us, wanting us to act well, eager to reward our good actions is useful to the survival of our species.

Also, religions were born because the idea of an afterlife was a great cheer-up.

 

 

If evolution was true, and we did come from apes, life is worthless. Why not just commit suicide and get it over with?

 

 

Because our genes and the whole of our bodies are yelling at us "thou shalt *live* and reproduce, you twit!"

Life is not worthless.....life is life is life is life.

I actually love the idea of sharing 99,9 % of my genes with an orangutan.

How do you like the idea that monkeys at the zoo share 99,9% of their genes with you?

 

BTW I'm an evolutionist and a darwinist. But I guess it is easy to figure it out.

I usually am not into bible bashing and I like the idea of an afterlife.

[faux]

Originally posted by sonofhud

If you live in the US and went to public schools recently, you will have studied the theory of evolution....as well as the big bang theory. I, along with everyone else, have come up with many things to justify these theories. I watched some films over the weekend with my church group concerning the creation and why the speaker believes its true. He gave some facts ect....so I have been trying to wrestle with these ideas some. What do you think is truth? Do you believe in any of these theories and which one? Why?

 

I believe that rules do not exist unless we make them. I do not believe that the origins of our universe, or life, are intended to be understood. To me, evolution and the big bang theory, among many other theories and laws, are the same thing as believing the earth was flat all that time ago — such things just make sense to us at the time, and allow us to believe we understand how it is things work.

 

In many ways, if I told you that a giant cabbage from the Quator Expanse planted Seeds of Intelligence in the Garden of Hock, and that is how life and our universe came to be, it makes just as much sense as the big bang theory.

 

The ways in which we believe our universe works could all be wrong. There have been some unexpected problems in physics that threatened to turn us on our heads in the past. In order to "fix" or balance the chaos, we come up with reasonable explanations as to how things work, so that we can preserve our existing beliefs.

 

There is no way to prove, without any doubt, that every law is absolute. If it makes sense at the time, we are going to buy into it.

[Arabess]

Sonofhud,

I personally believe that the Bible is the Word of God. In it.... God said He created us in His image....body, soul and spirit. I don't know how long it took took. I don't know what process He chose. I just choose to believe it because He said it. It works for me.

 

I believe what He says about this and any other issue. I am not a scholar nor a scientists. I'm just a regular person who happens to believe in a great God.

 

Again....this is only my PERSONAL opinion.

[Papillon]

HOLD IT!

 

Many people here are equating "big bang" with "evolution". The two are NOT THE SAME THING, in fact, they are not even related as two sides of the same coin.

 

The "big bang" is a THEORY.

Evolution is a well-proven hypothesis.

 

I majored in biology, zoology, botany, biochemistry and genetics, so I am DEEPLY, UTTERLY convinced about evolution. Your questions and arguments are more than welcome. Be warned, though. If you try and start a s***-flinging match I will put the smack down on you so hard even the gods will blink.

[Pyrannaste]

Originally posted by Papillon

HOLD IT!

 

Many people here are equating "big bang" with "evolution". The two are NOT THE SAME THING, in fact, they are not even related as two sides of the same coin.

 

The "big bang" is a THEORY.

Evolution is a well-proven hypothesis.

 

Well said

The big bang is just a matter-anti-matter-doesn't matter theory.

[dyermaker]

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two seperate myths, one Bablyonian, and one Mesopotamian. They were stories told by storytellers. In some places, they contradict each other. I still believe, metaphorically, there is a religious truth to the story--that God created us. But the detailed explanation of protocol is just plain storytelling.

 

To those who believe that the Bible is completely literal, how do you reconcile the differences between the first and second chapters of Genesis?

[sweetbilly]

sonofhud, I would like to give you some scientific facts sourounding the theories of both evolution and Darwinism that have nothing to do with the Bilble, in fact they were discovered by non-believers, and they will some day disprove both these theories. First, the big bang never happened. If you know anything about ort clouds in outer space, the common theory is that all planetessimals (stars and planets) are formed within them. Which means that the planets in them are formed at the same time.

 

A few years ago, some Russian scientists did what is called heliosismology test on the sun, and found that the sun is not in fact a red giant with a solid core, but is in fact a fairly young homogenious sun with a liquid center and because of the way in which the sun burns hydrogen, lithium, and other elements the sun could only be between six and seven thousand years old! the same age of the earth! Neutrinos, which an old main-sequence star would have to be burning in order to be more than 14,000 years old are oddly absent. this can only suggest that the sun is less than 14,000 years old. Because of the elements we do know are buring on the sun somewhere between barilium and magnesium we know the Sun is less than 7000 years and more than 5000 years. the scientific evidence surrounding this theory is absolute and cannot be disproven by anyone.

 

Plution Halos are another piece of scientific evidence that has yet to be disproven by the scientific community, and also align with my previous statement. Plution Halos form in granite. Granite forms under great heat and pressure. When they form, they trap parent ions when these ions reach the surface of the earth and are bombarded by radiation they change into daughter ions. The measurement of this change is called radiometric dating. plution Halos have have a radiometric date of only 0.000167. Which means that granite did not form over thousands of years but formed instantly trapping these halos in the cystalline structure permantly. proving conclusively that the earth formed instantly, which is totally contradictory to the ort cloud theory of thousands or millions of years for the planets or sun to form.

 

The reason why these two disproven theories are still taught in schools is because the united nations decides what gets put into school textbooks and what dosent. i do have more scientific proof form biology, geology, archeology, physics, an soooo many more. It would take me forever to write about them, so i'll save you the pain and go to class now; i'm going to be late. If anyone has any questions concerning these theiories please feel free to ask; i'll answer as many as i can. I'll write about that moron Darwin some other time.

[Pyrannaste]

sweetbilly,

 

I agree with what you wrote about scientific evidence of the formation of the sun and planets,

 

but the big bag theory is not about the formation of the solar system but about the formation of the universe, which is very antecedent the formation of our galaxy.

 

The big bang is supposed to have happened from 20 to 10 billions years ago, and the theory was suggested that the fact that other galaxies are traveling away from us at great speed. The existence of cosmic background radiation supports the big bang theory.

 

The Solar System appears to have originates "only" about 4,5 billions years ago.

[Tony T]

The sun is billions of years old. That it is 14,000 years old or less is absurd. Please give the name of the authority where you got the above information.

[sonofhud]

If you try and start a s***-flinging match I will put the smack down on you so hard even the gods will blink.

 

So there is a God?

 

No one can assume anything about the age of anything. No one knows how old the universe, solar system, sun, or Earth is. To say that it is billions of years or 14,000 years old is absurd. How do you know this? From scientific guesses? I think they are all full of **** to be honest.

[Arabess]

Originally posted by sonofhud

So there is a God?

 

There may not be for everyone else.....but I'm sure glad I have MINE!