Accepting personal responsibility

[desertIslandCactus]

It probably hurts him to be reminded of how badly he hurt you that you needed to find this place. I think, if he has any remorse over the situation he would feel like crap everytime he sees you on here.

 

Now in Jennie's situation I think it is goood for her married man to see her posting. I'm sure he likes it and makes him feel very secure.

 

Yes he knows that she is holding onto him, and no matter what, he is Her man .. or she may tell his wife.

[carhill]

Actually I wished I could have talked with him and see how we were both been played. IMO it is very positive when BS and AP can talk because no one has any intention to lie and both can have the "other's truth" and move on.

Yeah, same here. Years of wasted investment and perhaps two marriages would have been markedly different. When that light bulb came on, early in the second go-around, that was when I proactively disclosed, took responsibility, and arranged such a meeting between my now exW and former MW. They got to share their 'truths' alone. Sure, it ended up being detrimental to me, but part of personal responsibility is accepting consequences. I did, and have now moved on, feeling far freer than I have in decades.

[jennie-jennie]

I wouldn't say it's not "reasonable"...but I would say that (to me at least) it's hardly SUPRISING that they don't.

 

The OW demonstrated a lack of empathy when they started the affair...and they continue to demonstrate that lack of empathy when they continue the affair.

 

SHOULD they show empathy? IMO...yes.

 

Is it surprising to me that they don't? No.

 

See the difference?

 

Then we have to define when an affair starts. At the first moment of reciprocated attraction?

 

And we also need to define "should", which depends on which morals you personally have.

 

I think it depends on which plays the strongest role/s in any one particular potential OW: attraction, emotional needs, empathy and/or personal moral view on affairs and marriage.

 

It's a mix, and can not be pinpointed down as merely "lack of empathy".

Edited December 3, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Yes he knows that she is holding onto him, and no matter what, he is Her man .. or she may tell his wife.

 

If you are going to post personal details about me in a thread on another topic, please make sure you are up-to-date at least.

[jennie-jennie]

What about empathy for the man that you love? Does that play into it in any way? Would you have enough to let him go if you thought that your relationship with him was causing him great pain? By empathy for the man an example would be, one that is torn and miserable and a wreck in all aspects of his life. We do read of it happening here sometimes.......

 

I would expect my MM to take responsibility for his own life. If his consequences of being in a relationship with me are greater than his benefits, then he should leave. If he doesn't leave, I bet his benefits are larger.

 

And oftentimes feeling bad is good because it paves the way for change.

[Owl]

Then we have to define when an affair starts. At the first moment of reciprocated attraction?

 

That, like most things, has been the topic of conversation many times here. But regardless of what definition you choose to go with, there's always a moment of "choice" that occurs with infidelity...with starting ANY relationship.

 

And we also need to define "should", which depends on which morals you personally have.

 

 

Well, this was in response to you comment about what’s “reasonable”…so we’d have to define “reasonable” in that same context as well. I noted that the “should” here was MY OPINION. Just as we likely wouldn’t agree on what’s “reasonable”, we probably won’t agree on what people “should” do either.

 

I think it depends on which plays the strongest part/s in any one particular potential OW: attraction, emotional needs, empathy and/or personal moral view on affairs and marriage.

 

I’d agree. Unless someone is a complete sociopath, everyone has empathy to varying degrees. I don’t believe that all OW lack empathy…nor do I believe that they’re all sociopaths.

 

But for many…their empathy for who may be hurt by the affair is clearly less (or less of a priority) to them than their desire to pursue a relationship with a married man.

 

So showing empathy is then only relevant before the affair starts? Once the OW has embarked on an affair, it is not reasonable to expect her to back off because of empathy towards the wife. Am I interpreting you correctly?

 

Bottom line…I think we agree that choosing to have an affair with someone’s spouse demonstrates clearly that whatever potential empathy an OW/OM may have had was clearly prioritized much lower than their desire to pursue a relationship with the MM/MW.

 

And I find it highly unlikely that you’ll find many BW/BH’s that would consider trying to show a large amount of empathy for someone who’s ALREADY demonstrated this lack of empathy towards them.

 

With all of that said…I can empathize to some degree with OM in my situation. I know he got hurt as a result of the whole thing. And as long as he remains out of the picture…I hold him no further ill will and wish him a happy life…without my wife, and out of our lives.

[East7]

Yeah, same here. Years of wasted investment and perhaps two marriages would have been markedly different. When that light bulb came on, early in the second go-around, that was when I proactively disclosed, took responsibility, and arranged such a meeting between my now exW and former MW. They got to share their 'truths' alone. Sure, it ended up being detrimental to me, but part of personal responsibility is accepting consequences. I did, and have now moved on, feeling far freer than I have in decades.

 

I appreciate a lot your posts carhill. It was a wise choice to make them meet and share their experience.

 

The purpose of BS and AP talking is not to blame WS but to understand each-others views. It is hardly avoidable to end up blaming WS but at least there are a lot of things that help to move on easier without unanswered questions.

I think it is never AP's responsibility to actively contact BS. A lot of BS are full or anger and reluctant to talk to a "stranger" (AP), but they don't realize how helpful that can be for their next choices (whether is to stay or to walk away). Most of the WS tempt to minimize the A (admit EA but not PA or minimize the duration of the A) so the BS has only "the truth" he is served.

[jennie-jennie]

That, like most things, has been the topic of conversation many times here. But regardless of what definition you choose to go with, there's always a moment of "choice" that occurs with infidelity...with starting ANY relationship.

 

That moment of choice for me was when I was 15 and we were both single.

 

Well, this was in response to you comment about what’s “reasonable”…so we’d have to define “reasonable” in that same context as well. I noted that the “should” here was MY OPINION. Just as we likely wouldn’t agree on what’s “reasonable”, we probably won’t agree on what people “should” do either.

 

I’d agree. Unless someone is a complete sociopath, everyone has empathy to varying degrees. I don’t believe that all OW lack empathy…nor do I believe that they’re all sociopaths.

 

But for many…their empathy for who may be hurt by the affair is clearly less (or less of a priority) to them than their desire to pursue a relationship with a married man.

 

Bottom line…I think we agree that choosing to have an affair with someone’s spouse demonstrates clearly that whatever potential empathy an OW/OM may have had was clearly prioritized much lower than their desire to pursue a relationship with the MM/MW.

 

And I find it highly unlikely that you’ll find many BW/BH’s that would consider trying to show a large amount of empathy for someone who’s ALREADY demonstrated this lack of empathy towards them.

 

With all of that said…I can empathize to some degree with OM in my situation. I know he got hurt as a result of the whole thing. And as long as he remains out of the picture…I hold him no further ill will and wish him a happy life…without my wife, and out of our lives.

On the rest of your post we pretty much agree.

[carhill]

Most of the WS tempt to minimize the A (admit EA but not PA or minimize the duration of the A) so the BS has only "the truth" he is served.

I recall, many years ago, when dating my now exW, telling her the story of the lady I had loved and how I had sent all her love letters and cards to her husband after we 'broke up' in a moment of abject anger and sadness. So, she knew who the person was when it came to light again many years later. Interestingly, it would only be at that time when I 'heard' from the MW, now divorced, that her husband had never seen them and she still had them. It was one more, in retrospect, mind-f*ck she pulled on me to keep me in the 'game'. Clarity is an amazing thing. Man, there are some really broken people in this world. BTW, she later 'admitted' to me that, while we were EA, she was f*cking her boss. I was just a tool. Owned. I feel nothing but empathy for her now divorced BH and, oddly, for the boyfriend who became my 'competition' during the latest round, even though I now know I was just a tool to get what she wanted from him (a greater and more financially advantageous commitment). Willing participants we all were in the dynamic of collateral damage. Lessons all around. Life is nothing if not a teacher.

[Owl]

That moment of choice for me was when I was 15 and we were both single.

 

On the rest of your post we pretty much agree.

 

Sorry Jennie...but you were 15, and that was decades ago.

 

You were a teenager, with a teenaged notion of love. And you shared a relationship...that ended over time.

 

Clearly that teenage romance wasn't the affair.

 

The affair started when you decided to start a new romantic relationship with him...in the knowledge that he was married. With the awareness and lack of concern about what was likely to happen to his wife if this affair continued to the point where it ended his marriage.

 

Unless he was married when the two of you were 15, it wasn't an affair.

 

Let's call a pineapple a pineapple, shall we?

[jennie-jennie]

Sorry Jennie...but you were 15, and that was decades ago.

 

You were a teenager, with a teenaged notion of love. And you shared a relationship...that ended over time.

 

Clearly that teenage romance wasn't the affair.

 

The affair started when you decided to start a new romantic relationship with him...in the knowledge that he was married. With the awareness and lack of concern about what was likely to happen to his wife if this affair continued to the point where it ended his marriage.

 

Unless he was married when the two of you were 15, it wasn't an affair.

 

Let's call a pineapple a pineapple, shall we?

 

You need to read up on the power of rekindled love. Sorry, Owl, but once again this is something I have lived and you have not.

[greengoddess]

You need to read up on the power of rekindled love. Sorry, Owl, but once again this is something I have lived and you have not.

 

 

so do you believe you are the first love and not his wife?

[phillygirl]

 

I have been in situations (way back) when I so wanted to be with a man who was married, but seeing them with their wife and family clicked my moral compass (good old moral compass) firmly onto the, no, don't go there path, not that I didn't want to, not that it might have been dammed good, but it isn't in me to do that to someone. Personal responsibility can often just mean saying, when you have left your wife, come find me.

 

 

exactly! as an xOW (many years ago), the thing that made me realize that dating MM was WRONG, was my OWN MORAL COMPASS. although many OW/OM might attempt to absolve (yes, i mean that) themselves of being a co-conspirator in an A, by asserting they are not responsible for the feelings of the BS/children, et al., the reality is they ARE partially responsible. and no degree of pedantic prose and reframing will change that.

 

ironically, i am now (at 40) the "married woman" with the husband that many young women find attractive. although he's not cheated (to my knowledge) it has crossed my mind. especially when we go several days/weeks without intimacy (due to kids, work, et al).

 

doesn't seem so "benign" from the other perspective...

[Owl]

You need to read up on the power of rekindled love. Sorry, Owl, but once again this is something I have lived and you have not.

 

I'm not arguing with you that what you feel is strong.

 

I've got no doubts at all about the "power of rekindled love". I've seen scores and scores of threads started by WS's or OW that got involved with an old flame. It's exactly what makes sites like Facebook and such so great of a risk to a marriage.

 

What I'm saying is that when you decided to re-kindle that love...as an adult, with full awareness of the fact that he was married...you did so following exactly what we agreed on...it was done without regard or a strong sense of empathy for his wife or anyone else that might be impacted by your choice to have an affair with him.

 

The teenaged relationship wasn't the start of the affair.