Chicks before dicks

[scatterd]

I hear often how Ow refer to MMW as the competition why would you want to compete with a MP when two people marry its a commitment for life and no one should have to compete they already won when they married.The competition should be with singles.Also I have read how MM and W should just get a D because their M is not working.Well marriage is work and in time who ever your with the newness wears off.The reason its not working is because a MP cheats and does not do the work which is required to keep the marriage strong.I have a hard time understanding why the OW thinks that the wife is any different then the OW if a person cheats its because they are not strong enough to work on their relationship and don't have the balls to get out when all else has failed.Both OW and W are being lied to and put in to situation that hurts.I'm wondering why would anyone want to be with someone they know cheats is that not setting yourself up to be in the W situation in the future.The MM loved their wife's so much they married them and had strong feelings enough to make this commitment.I can not see why the MW and W can not come together and put an end to the lies.Maybe if we consider each other as victims we could come together and show these men that they can not get away with cheating they might do it the right way either work it out or get out.I know their is different circumstances but we are allowing this.Allot of times the wife does not have proof so how can she do anything.if we were honest with each other and confronted each-other straight on then they would not be able to lie and play that roller coaster game with both woman as the saying goes chicks before dicks.

[BB07]

I get your points scatterd and you made some good ones.

 

Leaving out the moral and boundary issues out of it, this is my view.

 

A lot of these men are seasoned manipulators and skilled liars and some women naively let their emotions get ahead of their good sense and by the time they realize that they just might have been had/suckered, it's hard to disentangle.

 

No matter what the position of the woman involved, if there is love we want and need to believe that the man is worth it. Sometimes it takes a while (often times) a lot longer than it should to come to the realization that in fact the man was a fraud to both women who he professed to love.

 

Since I had the occasion to get as close as someone can get to the hurt and pain that cheating causes to another woman, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I'll never do that to anyone again. I've learned some hard tough lessons about men, other women and myself.

[scatterd]

Thank you for your response I am glad you have learned from it I am wondering If you had to do it all over would you do it the same or would you of confronted his wife?I am hoping that the OW and MW can come together and take advice from each other.Just because a woman is married it does not mean that they don't understand or are in capable of giving good advice,I think they give the OW in sight on what goes on behind their closed doors.All woman want to be loved and if we stand together maybe we can help make a change in some men.They do it because they can because we allow it.I have learned allot since I've been here on the OW point of view.I am on my third marriage and was cheated on with both of my X's but had I had the proof I would have left sooner and let the OW have them.Both of them were beaters and they could of had the so called prize had I known for sure.I found out about it after wards and went through hell not knowing why.One of them does it to his wife now the other changed and wanted me back for years.I think allot of times the OW does not know what kind of guy they are with and would be wise to talk to the wife.Any way us MM woman on this site are not the enemy their enemy is the cheater.

[jennie-jennie]

In the beginning of my relationship with my MM I had some ideas like this. Women joining forces. Since then I have gained a much deeper understanding of WS and extramarital relationships. I know now that a premature Dday will in no way help the WS make the choice he needs to make. It will just make matters worse.

 

A WS who is not ready to leave his marriage will not do so on Dday. A WS who is not ready to end the extramarital relationship will not do so on Dday, at the very least not emotionally.

 

And for women to join forces, there has to be a Dday.

 

The WS in an extramarital relationship is likely severing his bonds to his wife. Will he ever do it completely? There is no way to know the answer. Perhaps, perhaps not. But in no case is it a process that can be forced prematurely. Not by ultimatums, not by Ddays. If there is enough of a bond left to the marriage, the WS will stay. If there is a strong enough bond to the OW, the WS' relationship with her will continue even after a Dday.

 

So however much we would like, the OW and the BS can not join forces if they want to keep their partner.

Edited November 27, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[BB07]

Thank you for your response I am glad you have learned from it I am wondering If you had to do it all over would you do it the same or would you of confronted his wife?

 

You are welcome scatterd.

Looking back I see I was very gullible and somewhat naive. Had I found a place like LS my first time around (many years ago) I think that I would have had a lot more insight and knowledge and I would have most likely saved myself the pain of getting into it with him the 2nd go around. I feel pretty sure I would have saw through the BS and the lies.

Reading the posts and stories here made me realize that there are so many common aspects of how the mm handle it or more likely not handle it. They cake eat, they put both women through hell and the poor baby's are so tortured by their torn status that they just can't do anything. They ALWAYS lie at least to one woman, most likely both. (NOW before I get into the rest of it because it ain't pretty and someone wants to jump on me and say but that isn't the way it is with my MM. OK then, it may not be and I'm not saying that it's so in all cases but it does seem to be the majority of them.

So here is the rest.... They cover their own azz in order to not upset their status quo. They are selfish. They pit both women against each other and it's done at first in very subtle ways. At first they reel you in by not outwardly speaking ill of the wife, but there are hints, or proclamations of unhappiness or they say they married for the wrong reasons. Later.........if a D day happens or the OW puts some pressure on them for a change, then the things they say about the wife get more demeaning and they are no longer just hints here and there. They say she is crazy, impossible, dangerous, etc. and it goes on and on.

 

So after my long winded answer.......if I had it to do over with again regarding talking with the wife, YES it would have happened a lot sooner.

 

 

 

I am hoping that the OW and MW can come together and take advice from each other.Just because a woman is married it does not mean that they don't understand or are in capable of giving good advice,I think they give the OW in sight on what goes on behind their closed doors.All woman want to be loved and if we stand together maybe we can help make a change in some men.They do it because they can because we allow it.I have learned allot since I've been here on the OW point of view.I am on my third marriage and was cheated on with both of my X's but had I had the proof I would have left sooner and let the OW have them.Both of them were beaters and they could of had the so called prize had I known for sure.I found out about it after wards and went through hell not knowing why.One of them does it to his wife now the other changed and wanted me back for years.I think allot of times the OW does not know what kind of guy they are with and would be wise to talk to the wife.Any way us MM woman on this site are not the enemy their enemy is the cheater.

 

I'm sorry Scatterd that you have had some hard times with men, my heart goes out to you. Hugs..........

 

I'm all about women empowering themselves to not be in a unhealthy situation and to NOT be anyone's doormat, affair or not.

[whichwayisup]

And for women to join forces, there has to be a Dday.

 

In my opinion, women to join forces means an OW who lets herself fall inlove with a MM should not pursue him. IF he pursues her, she can say NO. You're married, and I refuse to be the OW. It shows that the OW has respect for the fact the man has a wife already and isn't going to put herself in a contest of who the MM eventually chooses. Yet we all know the outcome, MM ends up with two women and no choices are made. Just an affair.

 

Same goes for OM who are involved with MW.

 

So however much we would like, the OW and the BS can not join forces if they want to keep their partner.

 

This is true.

 

A WS who is not ready to leave his marriage will not do so on Dday. A WS who is not ready to end the extramarital relationship will not do so on Dday, at the very least not emotionally.

 

True again. So, it comes down to an OW who has invested less time than the W, yet the OW expects and hopes the W will throw in towel after Dday and kick him out, so she will win the so called competition, since MM himself cannot choose, he'll stay in the marriage and keep the A on the downlow for a while, untl things settle down at home. The thing is, how many OW truly want their MM from default? Let's a MM's wife makes the move first, kicks him out after Dday and divorces him. Most of those MM realize they made a huge mistake and try to win their BS's back, but it's too late. They decide to make a go of it with the OW, not by choice, but by default. That isn't a good feeling to "win" someone by default. Is it? How can one feel loved, respected and chosen when HE didn't choose?

[jennie-jennie]

In my opinion, women to join forces means an OW who lets herself fall inlove with a MM should not pursue him. IF he pursues her, she can say NO. You're married, and I refuse to be the OW. It shows that the OW has respect for the fact the man has a wife already and isn't going to put herself in a contest of who the MM eventually chooses. Yet we all know the outcome, MM ends up with two women and no choices are made. Just an affair.

 

Same goes for OM who are involved with MW.

 

Your idea of women joining forces seems to be women joining forces to protect the marriage.

 

This is true.

 

True again. So, it comes down to an OW who has invested less time than the W, yet the OW expects and hopes the W will throw in towel after Dday and kick him out, so she will win the so called competition, since MM himself cannot choose, he'll stay in the marriage and keep the A on the downlow for a while, untl things settle down at home. The thing is, how many OW truly want their MM from default? Let's a MM's wife makes the move first, kicks him out after Dday and divorces him. Most of those MM realize they made a huge mistake and try to win their BS's back, but it's too late. They decide to make a go of it with the OW, not by choice, but by default. That isn't a good feeling to "win" someone by default. Is it? How can one feel loved, respected and chosen when HE didn't choose?

 

It's not a competition, it is a process. There is nothing the BS or the OW can do to win, thus it is not a competition. You can't win emotions. Emotions just are. Nor can they be counted in years.

 

Concerning "winning the MM by default", you are giving yet another reason why a premature Dday is of no value.

[BB07]

Your idea of women joining forces seems to be women joining forces to protect the marriage.

 

I didn't take it that way.......my interpretation is that she meant for all women to be empowered and not to put up with being someone's default choice nor should they allow someone to make them feel less than or be a doormat. It applies to both, BS and OW.

[jennie-jennie]

I didn't take it that way.......my interpretation is that she meant for all women to be empowered and not to put up with being someone's default choice nor should they allow someone to make them feel less than or be a doormat. It applies to both, BS and OW.

 

I thought WWIU was a he?

 

You apparently interpreted his post completely differently than I did then. For me I would be a doormat if I did what he suggested, and the wife would be my MM's default choice.

[BB07]

I thought WWIU was a he?

 

You apparently interpreted his post completely differently than I did then. For me I would be a doormat if I did what he suggested, and the wife would be my MM's default choice.

 

 

Opps on the WWIU being a he........I didn't know.

 

Yes we did interpret it differently.

 

As for your mm's wife being the default choice, I'll leave that alone but I'm sure someone else will have something to say about it.

[Ms. Red]

I thought WWIU was a he?

 

You apparently interpreted his post completely differently than I did then. For me I would be a doormat if I did what he suggested, and the wife would be my MM's default choice.

 

Nope, she's a she.

[jennie-jennie]

Opps on the WWIU being a he........I didn't know.

 

Yes we did interpret it differently.

 

As for your mm's wife being the default choice, I'll leave that alone but I'm sure someone else will have something to say about it.

 

It's interesting how the BS apparently do not mind being the default choice. They keep asking the OW to respect the marriage, which would in fact make them the default choice. They keep telling the OW to go NC, which also makes the BS the default choice.

 

WWIU, I don't believe I have ever seen an OW post here hoping the BS will throw the MM out on Dday. What the OW hopes, is once the cat is out of the bag, half the job is done and the WS will be able to choose, and hopefully choose her! But my belief is that this will only happen if the process the WS is going through has progressed far enough, otherwise the WS will still be stuck in limbo, even after Dday.

[jennie-jennie]

Nope, she's a she.

 

Fair enough. Well, it's difficult to know with someone who never shares any personal details at all.

[greengoddess]

It's interesting how the BS apparently do not mind being the default choice. They keep asking the OW to respect the marriage, which would in fact make them the default choice. They keep telling the OW to go NC, which also makes the BS the default choice.

 

WWIU, I don't believe I have ever seen an OW post here hoping the BS will throw the MM out on Dday. What the OW hopes, is once the cat is out of the bag, half the job is done and the WS will be able to choose, and hopefully choose her! But my belief is that this will only happen if the process the WS is going through has progressed far enough, otherwise the WS will still be stuck in limbo, even after Dday.

 

 

LOL most of these married men go home to their wives every single day. Most of these married men go to bed with their wives every single night, most of these married men wake up in the morning with their wives every single day. The wife is not the default choice. He is married. He chose to marry her. He is still living with her by his choice.

 

He chooses to ease some of the tedium of everyday life and responsibility by having some fun with someone who does not share any of the family responsibilities, kids, bills, housework etc and then he goes home to the wife he chooses to be with and yet somehow you feel when an ow goes nc his wife is the choice by default? lol Your thinking is funny. ~giggle~

Edited November 28, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Ms. Red]

Fair enough. Well, it's difficult to know with someone who never shares any personal details at all.

 

I've often wished that part in our profile to check of gender was mandatory. It's weird when you've read posters for a while and thought of them as one gender and find out it's the opposite.

 

And, some posters do share more details about themselves. It's just in other parts of the forum.

[whichwayisup]

I've often wished that part in our profile to check of gender was mandatory. It's weird when you've read posters for a while and thought of them as one gender and find out it's the opposite.

 

And, some posters do share more details about themselves. It's just in other parts of the forum.

 

I've been on LS for a long time, too long! (LS is addictive.) JJ, have you wandered out to the other sections of LS? The watercooler area? sex section? the rant/confession? It's fun and you get to know other folks in a more fun and light hearted way.

 

And yes, I AM female! Atleast the last time I checked I was!

[scatterd]

Thank you for all the replies its interesting how many different opinions are out there.I did not realize how much the OW gets pulled in and hurt also until I came here.It is sad for both I have heard love is not suppose to hurt but it so often does.What webs we spin in the triangle of love.

[jennie-jennie]

I've been on LS for a long time, too long! (LS is addictive.) JJ, have you wandered out to the other sections of LS? The watercooler area? sex section? the rant/confession? It's fun and you get to know other folks in a more fun and light hearted way.

 

And yes, I AM female! Atleast the last time I checked I was!

 

Yes, I have, but I prefer discussions about a subject matter that lies close to my heart. For now it is extramarital relationships, in the past it has been other subjects, and I am sure in the future it will be some other subject which attracts my main interest.

 

I'm actually not that interested in socializing. I prefer interesting discussions. I'm too much of an intellectual, you know.

[whichwayisup]

Your idea of women joining forces seems to be women joining forces to protect the marriage.

.

 

I respect your views on marriage, why can't you respect mine? Why the ?

 

I didn't take it that way.......my interpretation is that she meant for all women to be empowered and not to put up with being someone's default choice nor should they allow someone to make them feel less than or be a doormat. It applies to both, BS and OW.

 

Yes.

 

If it's committed relationship or a marriage, same thing. Out of respect for the people in general.

 

 

 

It's not a competition, it is a process. There is nothing the BS or the OW can do to win, thus it is not a competition. You can't win emotions. Emotions just are. Nor can they be counted in years.

 

Maybe not emotions, but with history, and the glue that holds two people together, sometimes is ALOT stronger than lust and 'inlove' feelings. Long lasting and growing love is strong, even though it gets lost sometimes (hense WS choosing an affair) it does and has come back.

 

I've read lots of posts, past and present where an OW feels in competition with the BS.

[Star_Bright]

What I can't understand is how an OW who loves her MM, and whose MM claims to love her, is okay with sharing him with another woman. For me, at first xMM was a fling, something I entered carelessly and without thought and without any hope or expectation that he would leave his wife for me, but as soon as it became really serious and he told me he loved me, I expected him to back it up with action. When he didn't, I walked. It was hard and I should have done it sooner for sure. But I was not going to "compete" with his wife, nor was I going to share him. I deserve a man of my own to love me and only me, and I truly believe that every woman deserves the same. That's just my .02 cents but it's something I can't understand for the life of me.

 

As far as the wife being the default option, I don't agree. If the BS knows about an ongoing affair and is not okay with it but is just putting up with it, then she is sharing her man just the same as the OW, although of course the motivation/reasons are probably much different. If the wife is in the dark then only the OW is knowingly sharing the man she loves and so IMO the OW is the default option because the MM will have both for as long as the OW will allow him to. To me this is what made me start losing respect for myself. In my sitch xMM's wife knew about us but thought we were done and so I began to realize that I was knowingly sharing him whereas she was at least thinking we were done. That wasn't right to her or me - it only benefitted xMM!

[scatterd]

I do agree that no one should have to share a man every body deserves to

have love from only them.

[spice4life]

What I can't understand is how an OW who loves her MM, and whose MM claims to love her, is okay with sharing him with another woman. For me, at first xMM was a fling, something I entered carelessly and without thought and without any hope or expectation that he would leave his wife for me, but as soon as it became really serious and he told me he loved me, I expected him to back it up with action. When he didn't, I walked. It was hard and I should have done it sooner for sure. But I was not going to "compete" with his wife, nor was I going to share him. I deserve a man of my own to love me and only me, and I truly believe that every woman deserves the same. That's just my .02 cents but it's something I can't understand for the life of me.

 

 

This was my biggest issue durning the A and it caused me to end it many times. I don't like sharing and don't do it very well...lol. The other thing I couldn't understand is why did he keep coming back? I never got that. I mean, in a normal relationship my actions of constantly ending things would have been grounds for permanent dismissal. Don't you think? So why is that different in an A? Very confusing. In a real relationship I wouldn't tolerate that. If someone chooses to end it then, for me, that means it's done and it is time to heal and move on. I never understood why he would keep trying to reel me back in. He did many many times, so I should ask myself the same question. Why did I keep going back?

 

Sorry, didn't mean to thread jack, but this really stood out to me. Regarding his W, he never spoke of her except on the rare occasion he would tell me they were "fixing" things. If I didn't respond at the time I would have gotten to a better place a lot sooner. But again, I went against my better judgement and stayed in contact when he reached out. I often wondered what the real story was though...with them I mean. So many things went through my head, like "they are together for financial reasons and have a don't ask don't tell policy" or something crazy like that. It wasn't until recently that I actually started to wonder if he was cake eater and she wasn't aware of his extra curricular activites. Then I started to picture a woman who was trusting the fact that they were "both" working to repair the marriage. That didn't sit very well and I started to feel a lot of empathy toward her. In the throws of the A I blocked all of that out and didn't want to even acknowledge it...I'm sorry to say.

Edited November 28, 2010 by spice4life

[NoIDidn't]

Many posters have attempted, in vain IMO, to say that their participation in the affair was not a competition and that they didn't see it as such.

 

The entire dating scene is a competition. Affairs are no different, just the ante is upped immediately because one has to compete with a legal commitment and not just the usual my looks and my assets against that of another.

 

Saying its a competition shouldn't be viewed so negatively. All of dating is constant competition, that's why so many people get tired of it. I think many OPs think they have the MP cornered when the MP chooses to cheat on their commitment. They make the initial mistake of thinking it was going to be like shooting fish in a barrel to get the cheating MP to leave.

 

On female solidarity - no such thing. There has always been a competition between women when it comes to men.

[jennie-jennie]

I respect your views on marriage, why can't you respect mine? Why the ?

 

Why are you claiming I do not respect your view on marriage? I do. The was because your suggestion of women joining forces would only be protecting one of the women's interest. To me joining forces means that both women have something to gain from the pact.

 

Maybe not emotions, but with history, and the glue that holds two people together, sometimes is ALOT stronger than lust and 'inlove' feelings. Long lasting and growing love is strong, even though it gets lost sometimes (hense WS choosing an affair) it does and has come back.

 

There is a beginning to every "long lasting and growing love", and an end to many. So even with the history and the glue in the marriage the love between the two spouses might be waning and the bonds weakening, while the love between the WS and the OW is growing and their bond getting stronger.

 

I've read lots of posts, past and present where an OW feels in competition with the BS.

 

I've read lots of posts, past and present, where the OW does not feel in competition with the BS.

[jennie-jennie]

I didn't take it that way.......my interpretation is that she meant for all women to be empowered and not to put up with being someone's default choice nor should they allow someone to make them feel less than or be a doormat. It applies to both, BS and OW.

 

Just wanted to clarify that the post above, which WWIU also quoted, is written by BB, not me. BB's name was missing in WWIU's post, which made it seem like I had written it. The other two quotes in WWIU's thread were mine.