he has yet to confirm our date TODAY

[Star Gazer]

Straight up ladies, tough love has adverse effects on Sky. Haven't you guys noticed this by now?

 

Tough-love/soft-love is really not the issue here. I don't think I've been any more stern than you have in this thread.

 

The point I'm trying to make is about personal responsibility and accountability for one's own happiness. How can she learn, do better, make better choices, break her thought/decision making/behavior cycle, if she thinks everything she's doing is okay, and that he's just the big bad guy who used and abused her? What does she learn from being a victim?

 

You're advocating thinking of him as nothing but a gameplaying, selfish dick, and sticking a knife in him. What does she learn from that?

 

I'm advocating acknowledging that yes, he is without a doubt a selfish jerk, but also acknowledging that their needs/wants were grossly incompatible from the get go, he showed her who he was and what he wanted/didn't want from the get go, and that she knew this, and that as a result she's partly responsible for her own hurt because she chose the wrong guy in an attempt to conquer him. She's acknowledged that much.

 

The latter is much more personally empowering, IMO. This guy didn't happen to her; she chose him. She is in full control of her happiness.

[northern_sky]

Tough-love/soft-love is really not the issue here. I don't think I've been any more stern than you have in this thread.

 

The point I'm trying to make is about personal responsibility and accountability for one's own happiness. How can she learn, do better, make better choices, break her thought/decision making/behavior cycle, if she thinks everything she's doing is okay, and that he's just the big bad guy who used and abused her? What does she learn from being a victim?

 

You're advocating thinking of him as nothing but a gameplaying, selfish dick, and sticking a knife in him. What does she learn from that?

 

I'm advocating acknowledging that yes, he is without a doubt a selfish jerk, but also acknowledging that their needs/wants were grossly incompatible from the get go, he showed her who he was and what he wanted/didn't want from the get go, and that she knew this, and that as a result she's partly responsible for her own hurt because she chose the wrong guy in an attempt to conquer him. She's acknowledged that much.

 

The latter is much more personally empowering, IMO. This guy didn't happen to her; she chose him. She is in full control of her happiness.

 

I don't think TBF is advocating that at all. I think she agrees that I made really poor choices in getting involved with him (which I did), but she also thinks he acted like a dick. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I own my part in this.

[Star Gazer]

I don't think TBF is advocating that at all. I think she agrees that I made poor choices in getting involved with him (which I did), but she also thinks he acted like a dick. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

If she follows her own plan, to focus on you because you're here and he's not, it shouldn't matter whether he's a dick or an angel. The focus should be on making YOU better, a better person, a better partner-picker, and more astute/aware person of your own missteps.

[northern_sky]

If she follows her own plan, to focus on you because you're here and he's not, it shouldn't matter whether he's a dick or an angel. The focus should be on making YOU better, a better person, a better partner-picker, and more astute/aware person of your own missteps.

 

Well, part of that is not picking guys who are dicks.

[threebyfate]

It's true. Tough love only makes me feel like crap. I respond more positively to encouragement. I ended things with J, so I wish you guys would encourage me rather than nitpicking exactly how I ended it. That is progress for me, even if I have a ways to go. Baby steps.

Tough to admit this and make yourself more vulnerable on LS. It can be a harsh place. So kudos for doing so.

 

I don't think TBF is advocating that at all. I think she agrees that I made really poor choices in getting involved with him (which I did), but she also thinks he acted like a dick. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I own my part in this.

Exactly.

[threebyfate]

If she follows her own plan, to focus on you because you're here and he's not, it shouldn't matter whether he's a dick or an angel. The focus should be on making YOU better, a better person, a better partner-picker, and more astute/aware person of your own missteps.

What she doesn't need is to be consistently criticized for something she's already admitted to, more than once. Come on Star, pull out some compassion. It's there inside of you. She doesn't have to own everything. It takes two to tango.

 

And anyways, my belief is that when people try to own everything, this is also unhealthy in that it's a form of taking control of things they don't really have full control over. That's not realistic either.

 

What's realistic in this situation, is that each have responsibilities and Sky's taken her own. The rest belongs to him and deserves a knife.

[Star Gazer]

It's true. Tough love only makes me feel like crap. I respond more positively to encouragement. I ended things with J, so I wish you guys would encourage me rather than nitpicking exactly how I ended it. That is progress for me, even if I have a ways to go. Baby steps.

 

Is this tough-love? I used your own words before you did.

 

But next time, if a similar situation presents itself, I hope you'll avoid the giddy gamesmanship so that even after a long time passes, you can know you moved on gracefully and without the internal drama.

 

Baby steps, though. This is definitely progress in the right direction.

 

*shrug* It's because it comes out of my mouth, and not someone else's, that it's "tough-love." I get it.

 

In all honesty, I have noticed another distinct pattern of yours, Shadow/Sky. You listen to 4 people on LS, and only those 4 people: TBF, OG, Kamille, and Johan. That's really it. If the response you receive isn't distinctly cheery and in agreement with what you want to hear, you ignore everyone else, or call them biased, even if their advice is exactly the same as those 4. I guess their style fits you best, I don't know...but it doesn't mean anyone else's advice to you is any less helpful, or has any less sincere desire to help you.

 

So when I speak to you, I know you're not really listening. I've learned that I'm really speaking to other gals who might be reading.

[Star Gazer]

What she doesn't need is to be consistently criticized for something she's already admitted to, more than once. Come on Star, pull out some compassion. It's there inside of you. She doesn't have to own everything. It takes two to tango.

 

I'm not consistently criticizing her; I'm questioning your focus on him, and your approach in "handling him" and this situation...I've been engaging you primarily, not her. (Not arguing, I'm just pointing out the different styles!)

 

I don't think he deserves a knife.

[threebyfate]

but it doesn't mean anyone else's advice to you is any less helpful, or has any less sincere desire to help you.

 

So when I speak to you, I know you're not really listening. I've learned that I'm really speaking to other gals who might be reading.

That's not true. I've seen her sit up and pay attention to your advice too. IMO, what makes her stop listening, is when tough love is applied to her. If anything, it makes her wilt.

 

It's true that everyone has a style. But why not try to amend your style so it gets through to each individual poster? Can't say I can personally do this all the time but since we've known Sky for so many years, it finally occurred to me what doesn't make her curl up and bleed. And that was never my intent to make her curl up and bleed.

[threebyfate]

I'm not consistently criticizing her; I'm questioning your focus on him, and your approach in "handling him" and this situation...I've been engaging you primarily, not her. (Not arguing, I'm just pointing out the different styles!)

 

I don't think he deserves a knife.

Well I'm not going to keep engaging you whether he deserves the knife or not. I stand firm on my position and more than likely, you will too, which to me, doesn't matter. He's moot to the situation since it's Sky that matters.

[Star Gazer]

That's not true. I've seen her sit up and pay attention to your advice too. IMO, what makes her stop listening, is when tough love is applied to her. If anything, it makes her wilt.

 

It's true that everyone has a style. But why not try to amend your style so it gets through to each individual poster? Can't say I can personally do this all the time but since we've known Sky for so many years, it finally occurred to me what doesn't make her curl up and bleed. And that was never my intent to make her curl up and bleed.

 

Trust me, my style has been greatly amended to accommodate Shadow/Sky already. I'm really doing the best I can here, while still being true to my opinion.

 

Part of what Shadow/Sky needs to grow, in my most humble and honest opinion, is a tougher skin. She can still remain the sensitive, thoughtful, caring, etc. person she is, all while being able to handle criticism... particularly if she invites commentary by starting threads. The emotional sponge thing obviously isn't working for her. A thicker skin will also help her to not have to analyze every single tiny detail of every interaction she has with a guy, simply because she won't take it all so personally.

 

That said, I'm not sure how one gets a tougher skin, other than to continue falling down until there's callouses on the knees.

 

Also, her advice/comments to others is also often just as "tough" as what she gets. This may be why she gets tough-love from others as well - they think she can handle it, because she gives it. It's the ultimate contradiction. She describes herself as feisty and sarcastic, and yet when someone is feisty and sarcastic with her, she wilts, as you say. It's quite confusing and dare I say really frustrating for posters to handle. I believe this is why you see the same cast of characters in her threads... the stubborn few who refuse to give up.

[threebyfate]

Star, you and I could go on all night about this and not reach an agreement. I've suggested a way that doesn't have adverse effects on Sky and it's up to you to consider the advice or dispose of it. I don't want to hijack this thread any further than it already has gone so it sounds like another agree to disagree. The only problem is when we agree to disagree, it's not helping Sky.

[Star Gazer]

Star, you and I could go on all night about this and not reach an agreement. I've suggested a way that doesn't have adverse effects on Sky and it's up to you to consider the advice or dispose of it. I don't want to hijack this thread any further than it already has gone so it sounds like another agree to disagree. The only problem is when we agree to disagree, it's not helping Sky.

 

You're totally right, really. My style doesn't work for her, so it's a wasted effort. I've provided her as much help as I can, so from here on out I can only wish her all the best.

[threebyfate]

You're totally right, really. My style doesn't work for her, so it's a wasted effort. I've provided her as much help as I can, so from here on out I can only wish her all the best.

Sorry for the delay in response but I'm making dinner while posting. Wish you wouldn't walk away like this since I think you do have some good advice. And I mean that sincerely.

[Jannah]

I still stand firm in my belief that he should have been more forthcoming with where he was in terms of not being over his ex and his desire to date casually with NSA (which he described to you AFTER you slept together).

 

But, he wasn't. Maybe at the time, he didn't realize it? Who knows...

 

You did eventually learn where he was in terms of what he was looking for and you had a choice whether to either accept those terms or walk away. Maybe you developed a strong liking towards him, and after you learned of his desire to be in a non-exclusive relationship, you weren't ready to call it quits?

 

Maybe now, under these circumstances, you are ready too...

[welikeincrowds]

Hey, none of this is easy. Particularly, it's tough to get a hold of knowing what you deserve when you, yourself, are flawed. It's especially hard when love is involved. These feelings are powerful, such that they wash over any other (negative) feelings, and that gives you hope. The result is that it's hard to even know if it's right to feel anything you're feeling -- or, more accurately, if it's right to act on this feeling, or the other.

 

****. It's really, really hard!

 

I'm hesitant to believe the argument that this guy was evil. "Forgetting" the date and not telling her about his move are avoidance tactics; those were unfair, and certainly wrong. These offenses combined are irreparably damaging and so SP did make the best choice by walking away.

 

I can also see that allowing her to continue to date him after she had already decided to walk away once before was a little callous. I'm more inclined to think it was brain-dead. Finally, however, he is not shadow's keeper, nor could he read her mind. Shadow's actions were an explicit agreement to what he had told her he is capable of.

 

Shadow's emotions move very quickly, but I wonder if most of this tumult rose from the very first discord: "I don't want a relationship" vs. "I do." All of us can be skilled at repressing unsavory beliefs when we have feelings for someone. This particular repression of shadow's was a huge one. It is no wonder that this affair became emotionally complicated, because all the while she knew she was betting the house on a rigged game, and she wished she were ignorant of it. Imagine the feeling of knowing you will probably lose it all, while betting anyway, because you're craving the rush. That's a quick path to destruction.

[xpaperxcutx]

Shadow's emotions move very quickly, but I wonder if most of this tumult rose from the very first discord: "I don't want a relationship" vs. "I do." All of us can be skilled at repressing unsavory beliefs when we have feelings for someone. This particular repression of shadow's was a huge one. It is no wonder that this affair became emotionally complicated, because all the while she knew she was betting the house on a rigged game, and she wished she were ignorant of it. Imagine the feeling of knowing you will probably lose it all, while betting anyway, because you're craving the rush. That's a quick path to destruction.

 

That is a good analysis Welikeincrowds. I hope SP/Sky can come to conclusion as to what it is she expects and wants from a guy. Knowing before jumping into something thoughtlessly can really help her from getting stuck in those emotional traps.

[northern_sky]

Hey, none of this is easy. Particularly, it's tough to get a hold of knowing what you deserve when you, yourself, are flawed. It's especially hard when love is involved. These feelings are powerful, such that they wash over any other (negative) feelings, and that gives you hope. The result is that it's hard to even know if it's right to feel anything you're feeling -- or, more accurately, if it's right to act on this feeling, or the other.

 

****. It's really, really hard!

 

I'm hesitant to believe the argument that this guy was evil. "Forgetting" the date and not telling her about his move are avoidance tactics; those were unfair, and certainly wrong. These offenses combined are irreparably damaging and so SP did make the best choice by walking away.

 

I can also see that allowing her to continue to date him after she had already decided to walk away once before was a little callous. I'm more inclined to think it was brain-dead. Finally, however, he is not shadow's keeper, nor could he read her mind. Shadow's actions were an explicit agreement to what he had told her he is capable of.

 

Shadow's emotions move very quickly, but I wonder if most of this tumult rose from the very first discord: "I don't want a relationship" vs. "I do." All of us can be skilled at repressing unsavory beliefs when we have feelings for someone. This particular repression of shadow's was a huge one. It is no wonder that this affair became emotionally complicated, because all the while she knew she was betting the house on a rigged game, and she wished she were ignorant of it. Imagine the feeling of knowing you will probably lose it all, while betting anyway, because you're craving the rush. That's a quick path to destruction.

 

Here's an analysis of what went wrong in my brain. I remember the day after the party, when he contacted me to go on a date, I felt almost like a miracle had befallen me, crazy as that sounds. It was partly a reversal of expectations.

 

When I first met him, I was sure he was indifferent to me. Yet that night we connected, he told me he really liked me and had been attracted to me from the first time he saw me, told me all the things he liked about me in surprising detail, even complimented my drawing, etc. So it was like this sudden rush, that I didn't want to let go of. It was also a strong contrast to the dud before who hadn't been at all passionate.

 

Also, he's the first guy I've really admired who has been at all interested in me. All of a sudden I had a huge amount of hope attached to the encounter.

 

When he left things in the air "let's see where this goes" after our second date, I didn't feel discouraged, even though I should have. Again, it was a reversal of expectations. His profile stated that he was only looking for something casual, so I thought gee maybe he really likes me if he's willing to consider forgoing that rule.

 

I think it would have been a lot easier for me to detach if I hadn't put him on a pedestal from day one and convinced myself I might be on the verge of winning the jackpot. I saw him as too special, too important. I wasn't willing to not give it a chance, since it seemed like I had nothing to lose (which in retrospect, I did). There was that nagging voice in my head that was like, will you be able to live with yourself if you DON'T give this a chance?

 

I hated 500 days of Summer, but it's a useful reference when it comes to relationships. I feel like I'm the guy and he's the girl in the movie.

 

I still haven't figured out how to NOT put certain guys on pedestals, and I think this may be my biggest problem. I feel that another guy I really like will ever show interest in me again, so I'm desperate to make it work.

 

Rereading what I wrote above, the high/low expectations is another problem I just identified. I tend to assume the worst case scenario in order to shield myself from disappointment. The problem with this is if I'm at all wrong, the jump from my expectations to the reality is so huge that I get overly excited. I go from thinking he hates me/is indifferent to me to he actually likes me at least a moderate amount. If I went in with more balanced expectations or no expectations at all I wouldn't get that rush of reality that clouded my judgment. Instead I'd be like, OK, he likes me, but is he willing to commit? Not sure if that makes sense.

[northern_sky]

He wrote me back, but I haven't opened the email. I feel like it's a trap. Not that he willingly set one, but it is one nonetheless. Should I delete it?

[northern_sky]

OK, I read it. He's apologetic, confused and wants to hang out. WTF.

 

Delete.

[810]

it's been an emotional day for you Sky. :hug:

personally i don't think you should delete it, however, i do think after reading it, you should wait for some time for your emotion to settle before replying to him.

this is your relationship with him, it is your choice of own words of how to respond to him and his thoughts.

[northern_sky]

Sorry for the delay in response but I'm making dinner while posting. Wish you wouldn't walk away like this since I think you do have some good advice. And I mean that sincerely.

 

Yeah, I agree that she has some good advice. It's really not true that I never listen to you, SG. I have considered and taken your advice on a number of occasions. I do think sometimes you go overboard in making your points or disagree with what you're getting at, and honestly you have your mean moments, but that doesn't mean I dismiss everything you write. I feel like you've been giving especially sound advice recently, so it's unfortunate you don't want to help.

Edited November 29, 2010 by northern_sky

[Star Gazer]

Yeah, I agree that she has some good advice. It's really not true that I never listen to you, SG. I have considered and taken your advice on a number of occasions. I do think sometimes you go overboard in making your points or disagree with what you're getting at, and honestly you have your mean moments, but that doesn't mean I dismiss everything you write. I feel like you've been giving especially sound advice recently, so it's unfortunate you don't want to help.

 

That's where you're wrong, Shadow, as well as a little insulting to my character. My intent is never to do anything but help you. You assume far too often that I have ill intent, or that I'm being mean. I can't help your sensitivity, and I'm not going to pretzel myself so that you'll listen. Other people can do that work.

[threebyfate]

OK, I read it. He's apologetic, confused and wants to hang out. WTF.

 

Delete.

Dis boy likes games! Glad you deleted it.

[northern_sky]

That's where you're wrong, Shadow, as well as a little insulting to my character. My intent is never to do anything but help you. You assume far too often that I have ill intent, or that I'm being mean. I can't help your sensitivity, and I'm not going to pretzel myself so that you'll listen. Other people can do that work.

 

I don't think any regular on this board hasn't had a mean moment here or there, and it would be dishonest for them to claim that they haven't.

 

I'm not insulting you; I'm calling you human.

 

If you don't want to help, that's fine, and maybe it's for the best given our tendency to butt heads. I get plenty of helpful advice already.