he has yet to confirm our date TODAY

[northern_sky]

I can SO relate to this.

 

I also need to know that it's over and over forever, 100% or I will obsess endlessly.

 

The hardest guy that I ever had to get over is my ex with whom I had a complicated on-off relationship for 3 years. Then we were some sort of FWB for the 2 years after that. In those 2 years, he treated me like s%it. Everybody was telling me that but I didn't want to see it. I loved him and he was saying that we can have a serious relationship down the line, that we have a great connection, that timing right now is bad for him and all he needs is for me to be patient and give him time (while continuining to hang out).

 

I held on. I cried almost every day but I believed that there was hope and that I will never love anyone else. I saw him 2-3 times a week regularly. We had sex but sometimes we just went to dinners and shopping etc. He was constantly doing hot/cold and I would be manic/depressed as a result.

 

I think that the situation with him would go on forever if it wasn't for something I orchestrated. I needed to kill all hope and this was the key to moving on. Clearly, he was never going to tell me that so I needed to find another way.

 

He used to frequent a certain chat room. I know that he also has a need to confide personal matters to other people - and it doesn't take much for him to open up. I created a character, a girl and started talking to him every night in this chat room.

 

This required great deal of time and effort but I figured that this guy is consuming my every waking thought anyway so what the hell.

 

I chatted to him for 2 months, about anything and everything but mostly about the things and interests that I knew he related to.

 

Two months later, I went in for the kill. My character asked him for relationship advice. I made up some story of how I was seeing some guy who wanted a relationship with me and that I really liked him but just wasn't sure. Right away, he started talking about him and real me. He told my online character our history (mostly correct).

 

So my character asked: Why don't you want a relationship with her right now?

 

He simply said, I like her but there is something about her that's missing. I can't put my finger on it but I can never fall in love with her because of that. I have been trying as I feel she is good for me. She is so sweet and loving. But I am not feeling it completely. I am not feeling what I should be feeling.

 

I pressed even further..do you think it's the timing? do you think you can feel it for her in time?

 

He simply said "no, I am 100% sure - no"

 

My character: "Why are you sort of leading her on then?"

 

Him: "Because I am afraid that I will never find anyone that loves me as much as she loves me"

 

My character: "If you were to meet someone new that blows you away what would you do?"

 

Him: "Break it off, no question about it - I have actually been on a few dates recently with someone pretty amazing..."

 

And there is was, in black and white, all my hope killed.

 

I never went back to that chat room.

 

I told him it was over.

 

A week later, I was over him.

 

Thanks for sharing that OG. That's one of the most brutal things I've read. It seems like something out of a movie.

 

I can now understand why you are so down on yourself when it comes to dating and why you assume (falsely) that you will never be good enough for some guy. This guy dumped on your self esteem when you were very young and vulnerable. I can't believe how selfish he was to lie to you all those years just so he could bask in your attention.

 

The worst part of your experience is he couldn't identify what it was about you that didn't do it for him. He left it vague, which makes you feel as if its something inherent about your character that you have no control over, something that seeps into your every movement and gesture. At least if you knew what it was, you could say, well that's something I can work on, or if you can't, then well there are other guys who won't be bothered by x variable. Without definite terms, the unidentifiable flaw seems to pervade your whole being. Your are left obsessing over what it is. This is not to say any of this thinking is rational or healthy. I am trying hard not to think this way anymore. But I can totally relate, because I've been there many times.

 

The problem is life is full of uncertainties. Most relationships don't end without a crack open.

 

I don't know how to let go in my mind and get over my inability to process grays.

[BobSacamento]

Is it that fact that he rejected you that makes it difficult to let go and need to leave the door open a crack? Perhaps the inability to accept that?

[northern_sky]

Is it that fact that he rejected you that makes it difficult to let go and need to leave the door open a crack? Perhaps the inability to accept that?

 

I think it's more just that I realllllly like him (still), and it's hard for me to let go of that shred of hope. Not hard in the sense that I don't consciously want to (I really do). It's like on a deeper level my heart is rebelling.

[BobSacamento]

I think it's more just that I realllllly like him (still), and it's hard for me to let go of that shred of hope. Not hard in the sense that I don't consciously want to (I really do). It's like on a deeper level my heart is rebelling.

 

I always felt like the best way to get over an obsession is to find another obsession. Go find another target.

[OceanGirl]

Thanks for sharing that OG. That's one of the most brutal things I've read. It seems like something out of a movie.

 

I can now understand why you are so down on yourself when it comes to dating and why you assume (falsely) that you will never be good enough for some guy. This guy dumped on your self esteem when you were very young and vulnerable. I can't believe how selfish he was to lie to you all those years just so he could bask in your attention.

 

The worst part of your experience is he couldn't identify what it was about you that didn't do it for him. He left it vague, which makes you feel as if its something inherent about your character that you have no control over, something that seeps into your every movement and gesture. At least if you knew what it was, you could say, well that's something I can work on, or if you can't, then well there are other guys who won't be bothered by x variable. Without definite terms, the unidentifiable flaw seems to pervade your whole being. Your are left obsessing over what it is. This is not to say any of this thinking is rational or healthy. I am trying hard not to think this way anymore. But I can totally relate, because I've been there many times.

 

The problem is life is full of uncertainties. Most relationships don't end without a crack open.

 

I don't know how to let go in my mind and get over my inability to process grays.

 

 

Thanks sky. Yes, that was the experience that made me what I am today. Still, I am angry at myself for not recognizing the signs and for not having gotten out earlier.

 

From there stems my deep belief that I am inherently flawed.

 

This is also why I am so obsessed with evaluating interest levels. I was essentially with a guy for 5 year who was never into me. yet, he did the right things as in called, asked me out etc.

 

So when people say as long as he is asking you out, the guy is interested - I know this is BS.

 

A guy can date you for many reasons, none which are love/like. Loneliness, ego boost, easy sex etc etc.

 

This is also where my trust issues stem from..This guy has been lying to me for YEARS, a good chunk of my 20's. We had many in depth conversations and he never told me the truth. How can I possibly trust some new guy when he cancels a date and says he is sick? Of course I can't.

[sb129]

Sky- lets be honest here hun.

 

Did you end things with him to beat him to it?

 

I think you felt him pulling away with his flakiness, so you decided to get in first.

 

Which is totally fine, but you aren't following through with that initial decision to end it with him.

 

You are leaving the door open a crack because secretly you want him to think that you are 100% fine without him in your life, and the reverse psychology of that is that he realises that actually, he does want to be with you after all. I know that this is the MAIN reason you want to maintaing contact with him. The whole business contact thing is a convenient excuse to feed yourself (and us).

 

I know this because I have pulled this stunt before. Tried the whole "lets be friends" thing, act all cool and like I was calling the shots, but unfortunately, it didn't work once.

 

I remember having a similar debate with you over the last guy was he the one you threw up on or got really wasted with or something? or was that dreamergrl? I forget, but I know you had the same dilemma last time, you decided to be friends, and hung out, then he started flaking again and you got upset over it.

 

The only way to get over him is to cut him out. You don't even have to tell him you are doing it, just stop contacting him, delete his email address, his phone number and take him off your FB page.

 

If he is going to be a potential business contact one day, there is no reason why you can't look him up later, or why HE could look YOU up if he really wants you to work with him.

[Star Gazer]

The problem is life is full of uncertainties. Most relationships don't end without a crack open.

 

Are you saying I should actually email him again and say, I don't want to ever speak to you again, or I don't ever want a relationship with you? Because isn't that what I would have to essentially do to close that crack? That seems pretty extreme.

 

No. You don't have to communicate anything to him, particularly what you're suggesting because it's not honest.

 

Life is FULL of uncertainty. This is an absolute, and something you need to work on accepting. ANYTHING is possible, even rekindling of once-dead relationships. You don't have to intentionally create/manipulate a crack into existence. It will always be there. As cliched as it sounds, if it's meant to be, it will be...romantically, professionally, whatever.

 

But in terms of living your life, deal with certainties and what you know to be true RIGHT NOW and act as though that's not going to change. Don't live in the land of what ifs and fairytales.

 

I have more to say about this but I can't write as much as I want from my iPhone...

Edited December 7, 2010 by Star Gazer

[northern_sky]

No. You don't have to communicate anything to him, particularly what you're suggesting because it's not honest.

 

Life is FULL of uncertainty. This is an absolute, and something you need to work on accepting. ANYTHING is possible, even rekindling of once-dead relationships. You don't have to intentionally create/manipulate a crack into existence. It will always be there. As cliched as it sounds, if it's meant to be, it will be...romantically, professionally, whatever.

 

But in terms of living your life, deal with certainties and what you know to be true RIGHT NOW and act as though that's not going to change. Don't live in the land of what ifs and fairytales.

 

I have more to say about this but I can't write as much as I want from my iPhone...

 

I'd love to hear you elaborate on this when you get a chance.

[Star Gazer]

I'd love to hear you elaborate on this when you get a chance.

 

Okay, here goes... Forgive me if I don't articulate this well, I'm running around trying to get ready for a business trip and have a million things on my mind.

 

You have talked a lot about your inability to process grays, and you have recognized an apparent inability to live in the moment. I think these are two of your biggest problems.

 

The grays. I think you make up grays in your mind, so that you have something to hold on to. This makes sense, as the grays validate how you felt in the past, and justify to you your desire to dream about the future (discussed below). It also makes sense that you think in terms of grays, because that's often the way the world works - people and life are like a continuum. Things are rarely in black and white, there's always a shade of something there. It's rarely black and white.

 

Living in the moment. You also have a problem doing this. You get hung up on what happened in the past, and focus so much on what could possibly happen in the future, that you don't experience or pay attention to the present. It does you no good to live in the past or the future. You invest too quickly, before you recognize what's happening in the present, based on what you hope to happen in the future. This makes you indulge some pretty predictable fantasies (we've all been there, trust me). You even went so far as to say that many of your happiest moments involve imagining future happiness. Thing is, when hanging on to the past or dreaming about the future, you vacillate between pessimism (low self-esteem related) and being way too optimistic to the point of almost-delusion (for lack of a better word), as well as putting someone on a pedestal and later vilifying them. In this way, you swing between two extremes, almost like swinging from black and white, without recognizing the middle, the gray...the present.

 

Basically, I think it would help you a great deal to reverse your thought process for each problem. Instead of thinking in grays, think in black and whites. And instead of focusing on the past or dreaming about the future, think about living in the moment, right now.

 

Black and white, right now. Things are what they are, or aren't, right now.

 

Is he (whomever "he" is at the moment) what you want, right now? No. Can he give you what you want, right now? No. Does he want what you want, right now? No. And so on. Take a rational, logical, almost mathematical approach to it. Focus on certainties. "I don't know" is equivalent to a "no," because it's not certain, not something you can rely on, not something worth investing in.

 

I didn't come up with this on my own, by the way. My therapist recommended it to me before Skiman every came in to my life. She kept asking me, "What do you KNOW to be true?" I'd say something about how I felt or what I wanted...and she'd interrupt me: "That's how you feel. That's not what is true. What do you KNOW to be true, right here, right now? What can you RELY on? What can you really trust?"

 

Another thing you do is paralyze yourself with hope that things will work out the way you want them to. You can't do that. It's like buying a car. You want a car, it's what will make you happy. You have $30,000 to spend on a car. You're on the lot with 50 cars. You see one you really like, one that has all the options you're looking for. You approach the dealer and say, "I want that car." He tells you it's not for sale, no matter how much money you have. What you're doing right now is deciding to sit on the lot, day in and day out, through rain, sleet and snow, hoping that maybe, someday, the dealer might be willing to consider selling you the car you want after you showed your dedicated desire to purchase that particular car. There are 49 other cars on the lot, 10 of them with all the options you want, and who would love you to buy them, but you're so blinded by your hope that the first car you set your eyes on might someday maybe possibly could be available for sale that you're paralyzed, and carless. And as time passes, the available cars only get more expensive, and you have the same amount of money to spend. Your options start dwindling. But you're still there, hoping and fantasizing about the one car that isn't available.

 

That might be a really ****ty analogy, but hopefully you see where I'm going with it.

 

This is just my advice for personal relationships. I think there's nothing wrong with having intangible future gray dreams that are professional and the like. In that way, the old adage of shooting for the stars and landing on the moon applies.

 

But when it comes to people and relationships, you have to take them for what they are, right now. You can't deal with people in terms of their potential. You can't focus on what you hope it could turn into, what might happen. Nope. Rather, when you meet them and they tell you who they are, what they want/don't want (as J did), you have to take them for their word and believe them. Take them as they are, black and white, right now. Don't let your attraction for them lead you to develop fantasies of what could possibly maybe who knows what if someday stuff. The proof is in the pudding - it never works.

 

Those are my random thoughts...for now.

[Star Gazer]

In short, Shadow/Sky: "Stop wearing your wishbone where your backbone ought to be."

[northern_sky]

Okay, here goes... Forgive me if I don't articulate this well, I'm running around trying to get ready for a business trip and have a million things on my mind.

 

You have talked a lot about your inability to process grays, and you have recognized an apparent inability to live in the moment. I think these are two of your biggest problems.

 

The grays. I think you make up grays in your mind, so that you have something to hold on to. This makes sense, as the grays validate how you felt in the past, and justify to you your desire to dream about the future (discussed below). It also makes sense that you think in terms of grays, because that's often the way the world works - people and life are like a continuum. Things are rarely in black and white, there's always a shade of something there. It's rarely black and white.

 

Living in the moment. You also have a problem doing this. You get hung up on what happened in the past, and focus so much on what could possibly happen in the future, that you don't experience or pay attention to the present. It does you no good to live in the past or the future. You invest too quickly, before you recognize what's happening in the present, based on what you hope to happen in the future.

 

This makes you indulge some pretty predictable fantasies (we've all been there, trust me). You even went so far as to say that many of your happiest moments involve imagining future happiness. Thing is, when hanging on to the past or dreaming about the future, you vacillate between pessimism (low self-esteem related) and being way too optimistic to the point of almost-delusion (for lack of a better word), as well as putting someone on a pedestal and later vilifying them. In this way, you swing between two extremes, almost like swinging from black and white, without recognizing the middle, the gray...the present.

 

 

Yeah, I never really thought about how my neglect of the present makes me vacillate and over-invest. That's true.

 

I'm having trouble following your logic below, though. You say above "without recognizing the middle, the gray...the present." But then below you say, "black and white, right now."

 

It seems to me like the grey lies in the future, while the past and present are both black and white.

 

That aside, I guess what you're trying to say is my best bet is to focus on the things I know now to be certain, and forget about the grey areas, while accepting that they exist...just forget them in terms of how I live my life.

 

Basically, I think it would help you a great deal to reverse your thought process for each problem. Instead of thinking in grays, think in black and whites. And instead of focusing on the past or dreaming about the future, think about living in the moment, right now.

 

Black and white, right now. Things are what they are, or aren't, right now.

 

Is he (whomever "he" is at the moment) what you want, right now? No. Can he give you what you want, right now? No. Does he want what you want, right now? No. And so on. Take a rational, logical, almost mathematical approach to it. Focus on certainties. "I don't know" is equivalent to a "no," because it's not certain, not something you can rely on, not something worth investing in.

 

 

Yes, this is good.

 

 

But when it comes to people and relationships, you have to take them for what they are, right now. You can't deal with people in terms of their potential. You can't focus on what you hope it could turn into, what might happen. Nope. Rather, when you meet them and they tell you who they are, what they want/don't want (as J did), you have to take them for their word and believe them. Take them as they are, black and white, right now. Don't let your attraction for them lead you to develop fantasies of what could possibly maybe who knows what if someday stuff. The proof is in the pudding - it never works.

 

 

Yeah, this makes sense. I tend to let how much I like somebody factor in to whether I'm willing to invest even if there's an inherent deal-breaker -- like he's not looking for a relationship.

 

Thanks for the advice! I think this is some of the best you've given, and for the most part it makes sense to me. I will try to incorporate it into my daily thoughts, so I move on faster and also avoid another mistake like this in the future.

[northern_sky]

Uh, just when I was getting a lot of work done he sends me an unprompted email. It's totally innocuous, about some cool album he read up on.

 

I suppose I should write a line back so he doesn't think I"m ignoring him. I hope he just doesn't keep trying to make contact. I did tell him I needed time to get over this.

Edited December 7, 2010 by northern_sky

[Star Gazer]

Uh, just when I was getting a lot of work done he sends me an unprompted email. It's totally innocuous, about some cool album he read up on.

 

I suppose I should write a line back so he doesn't think I"m ignoring him. I hope he just doesn't keep trying to make contact. I did tell him I needed time to get over this.

 

This is precisely why you don't volunteer to be friends with someone who you want but doesn't want you back.

[northern_sky]

This is precisely why you don't volunteer to be friends with someone who you want but doesn't want you back.

 

I've got it under control.

 

I realized that it was silly for me to get upset when he emailed me. Why shouldn't he? It's useless to get upset about something someone else does, especially when there's no harm behind it. Ultimately, I have control over myself. What he does doesn't matter. And I'm going to stick to my guns about not contacting him or hanging out with him until I'm over this. If he contacts me I won't ignore him, but I won't agree to seeing him, and I won't initiate any contact on my own.

[northern_sky]

I'm excited. My life has really picked up since I ended this. I got on adderall through my psychiatrist and have been insanely productive and focused. My mood has lifted. I feel like I can accomplish anything. I had no idea stopping my fling with him would have such a dramatic effect.

[carhill]

If you start having orgasms in the chair, there's your sign (that it's the Adderall)...

[northern_sky]

Just had the first real talk ever with my roommate about J (the one I'm less close to who is friends with him). She brought it up. She asked how things were going with him, and I told her the whole story. She said "ugh," and then went on a mini rant about J.

 

She said that J is a selfish arse. He's a good friend but he's an arsehole to all of the girls he dates, does selfish things and then tries to rationalize his behavior.

 

It was kind of satisfying to here that it wasn't just me. Also made me feel less keen on him because I realized it really is a personality defect of his, and it probably won't change.

[Star Gazer]

Just had the first real talk ever with my roommate about J (the one I'm less close to who is friends with him). She brought it up. She asked how things were going with him, and I told her the whole story. She said "ugh," and then went on a mini rant about J.

 

She said that J is a selfish arse. He's a good friend but he's an arsehole to all of the girls he dates, does selfish things and then tries to rationalize his behavior.

 

I wonder why she never volunteered this information before? I wouldn't trust her or consider her a friend, if I were you.

[welikeincrowds]

I wonder why she never volunteered this information before? I wouldn't trust her or consider her a friend, if I were you.

 

Yes, but that's you. Some people operate differently, and have different principles in regards to others' affairs. And really, would shadow have listened?

[xpaperxcutx]

I wonder why she never volunteered this information before? I wouldn't trust her or consider her a friend, if I were you.

 

+1

 

You guys literally hang out in the same social circle what are the chances this will reach J's ears?

[Star Gazer]

Yes, but that's you. Some people operate differently, and have different principles in regards to others' affairs. And really, would shadow have listened?

 

I believe the roommate knew J before she met Shadow, because roommate's now-ex BF and J are BFFs. And I suppose that because of roommate's prior loyalty to her now-ex BF, she had loyalty to J by proxy as well. So I guess I can understand why she wouldn't volunteer the information.

 

But I'm also assuming that as roommates, she has a desire to have some semblance of a relationship/friendship with Shadow/Sky. To tell her this information after the fact is like a slap in the face. If anything, she should have just kept it to herself entirely, even now.

 

And who knows...maybe she would have listened. I think Shadow/Sky deserved to know either way.

[northern_sky]

I believe the roommate knew J before she met Shadow, because roommate's now-ex BF and J are BFFs. And I suppose that because of roommate's prior loyalty to her now-ex BF, she had loyalty to J by proxy as well. So I guess I can understand why she wouldn't volunteer the information.

 

But I'm also assuming that as roommates, she has a desire to have some semblance of a relationship/friendship with Shadow/Sky. To tell her this information after the fact is like a slap in the face. If anything, she should have just kept it to herself entirely, even now.

 

And who knows...maybe she would have listened. I think Shadow/Sky deserved to know either way.

 

Yeah, I was surprised too, but I think it might have something to do with what you said about her being in a relationship with J's BFF at the time. When we were dating the most she said was, "good luck, you guys have a lot in common." But in general she seemed very awkward, from day one, when we got involved. Like she became noticeably weird around me in general. Maybe she was concerned he'd be a jerk to me and things would end badly. I really have no idea.

 

But she said that despite how he treats girls he's involved, he's still her friend. She said J and she continue to talk but she no longer talks to her ex (who she broke up with 2 weeks ago).

 

I do wish she had mentioned something to me, though.

 

I don't fully trust her, but I'm still trying to work on our relationship. I've been so busy lately that I haven't had much time for a social life, but once the semester is over I'm going to spend more time with her and my other roommate. I've been turning down a lot of their invites to bars because I've had so little time.

[northern_sky]

It's been hard to keep up the NC. Several times a day I have passing urges, but I always push through them and think to myself that I will regret it later. I just keep telling myself, just one day at a time.

 

I feel like something small but important has changed in me since I broke things off with him. Or rather, it seems like the beginning of a big change that will become permanent down the line if I keep up my momentum and don't give up.

 

I've been a lot more focused. The adderall has also helped with this. But I think it's more than that. Doing the right thing for myself seems to have caused a crack in an old mental pattern. I feel like I am finally dealing with problems that I was avoiding in the J fog, and before that in the OKC fog.

 

I realize now that things would have never happened between me and J, no matter how hard I tried to force it. And that if there is i ever another chance, it will only be at a time when I am a different, stronger person and I no longer care. It seems that old flames always come back into my life and want to be with me when I've fully moved on and no longer want them. It's like they have a sixth sense. At that point it won't matter to me if the chance doesn't come again. Not sure if that makes sense.

 

It's sort of like when I was a kid and wanted more than anything to go to Disney World. My family never went on vacations because we didn't have much money and my dad was also really cheap. So every year my mom, and my brother and I would beg my dad to plan a vacation with us, and every time he would say, "maybe next year." Finally, I think when I was 10 or 11 I realized that I would never get to go to Disney World as a kid and by the time I was old enough to go on my own as an adult, it would no longer mean anything to me. And that's exactly what happened. We never went and by the time I could go on my own, I no longer had any desire to.

 

So it doesn't make any sense to emotionally invest in something that matters a lot to me now but isn't going to happen now, and probably won't mean much to me in the future when it could happen.

 

I keep listening to that great song by Beck called "Lost Cause." It seems to fit my mood perfectly.

Edited December 9, 2010 by northern_sky

[Sarah1977]

This is the thread that never ends! It just goes on and on, my friends!

[Sarah1977]

Then stop posting in it, bitter lady.

 

 

Bitter about what? Personally, I find the whole thing incredibly interesting and it gives me something to read on my lunch break.