This particular BS' point of view

[wheelwright]

Might be the product of a marriage(which I say hogwash)but definately the action of a WS.

 

Bent you could look at this another way.

 

I have been told numerous times on LS that love is an action. That would seem to mean the motivations of a WS may be (in part?) the inaction of a BS. Or the actions which showed lack of love in the M.

 

Two sets of actions. One causing the other.

 

It's complex, because in a M where we are not shown the kindness we need, we may not be able to offer the loyalty we feel a M is worth.

 

Sometimes people need that kindness to overcome their cowardice.

 

It isn't good that the three great virtues, kindness loyalty and bravery are so put into challenge. But it is not only the fault of the WS, and it is difficult to weigh them up anyway when in conflict.

 

As highlight the conflict and bring it home - I don't believe they create it at all.

[Got it]

Great post silk!

[pureinheart]

Bent you could look at this another way.

 

I have been told numerous times on LS that love is an action. That would seem to mean the motivations of a WS may be (in part?) the inaction of a BS. Or the actions which showed lack of love in the M.

 

Two sets of actions. One causing the other.

 

It's complex, because in a M where we are not shown the kindness we need, we may not be able to offer the loyalty we feel a M is worth.

 

Sometimes people need that kindness to overcome their cowardice.

 

It isn't good that the three great virtues, kindness loyalty and bravery are so put into challenge. But it is not only the fault of the WS, and it is difficult to weigh them up anyway when in conflict.

 

As highlight the conflict and bring it home - I don't believe they create it at all.

 

This is really well said WW:)...it would have taken me about 10,000 characters to say what you said!

[turnstone]

Bent you could look at this another way.

 

I have been told numerous times on LS that love is an action. That would seem to mean the motivations of a WS may be (in part?) the inaction of a BS. Or the actions which showed lack of love in the M.

 

Two sets of actions. One causing the other.

 

It's complex, because in a M where we are not shown the kindness we need, we may not be able to offer the loyalty we feel a M is worth.

 

Sometimes people need that kindness to overcome their cowardice.

 

It isn't good that the three great virtues, kindness loyalty and bravery are so put into challenge. But it is not only the fault of the WS, and it is difficult to weigh them up anyway when in conflict.

 

As highlight the conflict and bring it home - I don't believe they create it at all.

 

No action causes another. We are all responsible for the actions we take and how they make another person feel, but no ones' actions make us do anything.

 

If a person is feeling unloved in their marriage or other committed relationship, to the extent they want to look elsewhere for that fulfilment, they are free to chose how to do that - have an affair, leave the marriage, speak to their partner about their needs. If their lack of fulfilment is bad enough to seek it elsewhere, it seems to me they have nothing to lose by leaving the marriage.

 

But from the fact the WS rarely leaves his/her BS for the OW/M, it seems that his/her needs are getting met just fine at home and s/he actually has a deficiency within him/herself that gives the motivation to have sex outside the marriage/committed relationship.

 

As for the 'three great virtues' - I thought they were faith, hope and charity. But really, all virtues are 'great'.

[bentnotbroken]

Bent you could look at this another way.

 

I have been told numerous times on LS that love is an action. That would seem to mean the motivations of a WS may be (in part?) the inaction of a BS. Or the actions which showed lack of love in the M.

 

Two sets of actions. One causing the other.

 

It's complex, because in a M where we are not shown the kindness we need, we may not be able to offer the loyalty we feel a M is worth.

 

Sometimes people need that kindness to overcome their cowardice.

 

It isn't good that the three great virtues, kindness loyalty and bravery are so put into challenge. But it is not only the fault of the WS, and it is difficult to weigh them up anyway when in conflict.

 

As highlight the conflict and bring it home - I don't believe they create it at all.

 

WW, no disrespect intended but I am pretty sure that I could never agree with your statements about affairs, blame and assessment of how AP/WS should be viewed. You are and maybe always will be looking at it to ease whatever you dissonance you feel. I believe in covenant marriage and the things you continually state are in direct contradiction to that. Why would I view something that is contradictory to what I believe as a viable possibility for bad behavior.

 

God says we will all answer for our choices, not the choices or our parents, siblings or spouse. Whatever action that committed by someone against us, it is up to each of us to respond appropriately. I was not a perfect wife, he was not a perfect husband. He respond by cheating and emotional abuse and I responded by self medicating and a lot of abuse of my own. It does not matter who did what to the other...God is only going to judge each of us for our actions. There won't be an footnote with the words "but...he/she did so in so first".

 

I don't disagree with you that marriages that are stifling or lack what is necessary for healthy growth kill love...but there is no reason to look for it outside of that marriage. Leave first. I really don't understand the concept that my marriage was bad..so I cheated concept. It is inconsistent with what I believe God wants for marriage in general and me personally.

 

It is not difficult for me to see who is wrong in the dynamic of infidelity in a marriage. I view a trouble marriage and infidelity as two very separate and distinct entities. As does God. The two aren't mutually exclusive as evidenced by those couples who do not cheat when things suck. There are choices made by both parties to contribute to the health and well being of a good marriage as well as choices that contribute to the lack there of. But if affairs were made by consensus of both parties then there would be no need for secrecy, lying, gas lighting and general nature of bulls**t.

 

Your arguments have been totally in the direction of minimizes the responsibility of those who chose the path of cheating and place those individual choices in the laps of those who had nothing to do with it...less than healthy marriage yes...cheating no. Is Mr. Messy responsible for the years of thoughts of suicide and self medicating because he treated me as less a wife should have been treated? Should he have been held responsible if I had succeeded in the suicide attempt or would that have been entirely my decision. One that I made alone in my own head with my own thought process which he wasn't privy to? So why is it okay to blame a BS for a thought process they weren't privy to? I can honestly say that I don't think I am the only one who doesn't get your rationale.

 

I don't know where you are in your healing process and I do hope you are further alone than some of your posts suggest. I do get you are finding your way through your feelings and it isn't easy, but I do have one question....by your rationale...what are you responsible for in your husband's unhappiness? If he cheats how much blame do you accept? If he leaves how much of that is all on you instead of his personal decision?

 

I thank God everyday that I won't be held responsible for the choices Mr. Messy made and I am equally grateful that he won't be held responsible for mine(because some of the things that I have done to physically hurt some people can be a b!tch at payback time). You will continue to look for reasons why you made the choices you made until you feel like you have reached something you can personally live with...that won't make it true though, it just means you can live with it.

Edited December 10, 2010 by bentnotbroken

[alexandria35]

I just don't get all the debate about who is to blame for the affair and I especially can't understand blaming people who are not in the affair and who didn't even have any notion that the affair was taking place. How can someone be held responsible for the actions of others? It's like saying "it's not my fault, you made me do it"

 

What would you do if a man walked up to you, pulled out a loaded gun and shot you in the foot? I know what I would do. I would call the police and when they arrived I would say "this man shot me in the foot, I want him arrested". Then I would go to court and "blame" that man for shooting me in the foot. I would hold him 100% responsible for my pain and sufffering and I would hope that the justice system would too. Imagine my horror if I got into the court room and rather than addressing the fact this man made the decision to shoot me, everyone started discussing the possibility that perhaps the shooter is not to blame. Yeah...maybe his wife was total bitch to him earlier that day and that pissed him off so he had to shoot me, so maybe I should be blaming his wife. Or what about the store that sold him the gun in the first place? Why should I blame the shooter, when clearly he wouldn't have shot me if someone hadn't sold him the gun. Maybe I should have the phoned the police and asked them to arrest the gun dealer instead of the man who shot me? And what about me? I was wearing open sandals that day instead of proper shoes, and that's why my toe got shot off. If I had been dressed in proper protective footwear, my toes would still be attached to my foot, so clearly I am fault too. I should have had myself arrested!! How dare I hold this poor misunderstood individual responsible when it's so obvious that other people made him do it!!

 

Of course everyone is going to say that an affair is a totally different thing and obviously it is. The above is just a stupid, probably not very well thought out analogy..but the bottom line is still the same...It's wanting to blame the actions of one person on another person. It's saying "it's not my fault because she/he made me do it".

 

As for forgiveness, why do people even care if the BS forgives the OW/OM. I have often seen the AP upset at the idea of BS forgiving the cheating spouse but not the AP. I don't get this. It's not like OW/OM care about the BS or how they feel, in most cases they don't have any relationship with the BS to repair or perserve. Often the OW/OM don't feel that they have done anything wrong, don't feel remorse for the pain caused, and don't have any empathy whatsoever for the BS, so why get bent out of shape because the BS hates you and doesn't forgive you? What bearing does forgiveness from the BS have on the future life of the OW/OM?

[OWoman]

No action causes another.

 

That's not what Newton claimed:

 

Lex III: Actioni contrariam semper et æqualem esse reactionem. (Third Law: For every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction.)

 

It's good enough for the Universe...

[NoIDidn't]

Why I feel it is important to get to the bottom of As without just saying 'they are wrong cos you are M/in a R', is because I can still imagine another world (cultural) where As are accepted as valuable despite the hurt.

 

Interesting thought. A world where affairs are accepted as valuable and YET, they STILL HURT. Why would anyone imagine their ideal world and people STILL get HURT? That doesn't make an iota of sense, IMO.

 

I do take responsibility, but I find the blame on this thread hard to hear.

 

What are you taking responsibility for? What blame? Can you provide examples of what you are calling blame? I'm not seeing what you are seeing at all.

 

I have heard MPs say their M is dead, they do not love their SO, their partner does not even greet them after 4 days away. They never have sex. They are only together for the kids. That M and commitment is for losers. That love is a ridiculous construct. That kids tie you down. They have nothing in common with their MP. That the M was right time right place.

 

That they think they made a mistake when they M.

 

But they have kids, a house and a job and are getting on.

 

I just don't think an OP is that bad a thing in these circumstances.

 

Are these MPs friends of yours? I live these scenarios daily. I hear this stuff all the time. Its still not a justifiable reason to help a man cheat on his W. Most of my social circle are unhappily married (from time to time). Wives tell me things like this all the time. But I would be wrong to capitalize on this information. The Ws are telling me how unhappy they are, not that I can go and make their Hs happy (behind their backs).

 

Its true that the state of marriages is bad. But that's no reason for people to blow up their lives with affairs and other destructive behaviors. That's a great reason for growing the heck up and learning how to deal with life's problems as an adult.

[fooled once]

NiD, I took it as she is accepting responsibility for the blame of cheating on her husband. I still think she blames the Betrayed Spouse way too much, but I think that is partly because she hates/has issues with the wife of the mm she had an affair with. Just guessing, but from her posts here, that is what I am 'seeing'.

[NoIDidn't]

NiD, I took it as she is accepting responsibility for the blame of cheating on her husband. I still think she blames the Betrayed Spouse way too much, but I think that is partly because she hates/has issues with the wife of the mm she had an affair with. Just guessing, but from her posts here, that is what I am 'seeing'.

 

I don't get how one can take responsibility for cheating on their own spouse and NOT get that the other BS is in the same boat as theirs.

 

It seems to follow that if I am responsible for my choice to cheat on my H, as in "its not his fault that I chose to cheat on him". Then I should be able to see that my AP's spouse is also NOT at fault for the cheating.

 

One has to do some serious logical acrobatics to come up with the other spouse is at fault for being cheated on, but your own spouse is not at fault for you cheating on them.

[wheelwright]

NiD, I took it as she is accepting responsibility for the blame of cheating on her husband. I still think she blames the Betrayed Spouse way too much, but I think that is partly because she hates/has issues with the wife of the mm she had an affair with. Just guessing, but from her posts here, that is what I am 'seeing'.

 

That's rather good FO.

 

Think you wrapped up my subconscious stance very nicely.

 

I am perhaps rather obvious.

 

For the reasons that hurt that are below the surface in any discussions here - like she got the man we both loved.

 

But more importantly because she lied to me and then tried to tell me it was me who lied. And then told me she didn't care how f**cked up I was.

 

And in my perception sometimes, forbade the closure conversation I so badly needed with xMOM.

 

I do see that was his choice, but it feels like she told him, even if I know it was his decision.

 

 

Bravo FO. You are right about that - though that is not the whole story.

[wheelwright]

Are these MPs friends of yours? I live these scenarios daily. I hear this stuff all the time. Its still not a justifiable reason to help a man cheat on his W. Most of my social circle are unhappily married (from time to time). Wives tell me things like this all the time. But I would be wrong to capitalize on this information. The Ws are telling me how unhappy they are, not that I can go and make their Hs happy (behind their backs).

 

Its true that the state of marriages is bad. But that's no reason for people to blow up their lives with affairs and other destructive behaviors. That's a great reason for growing the heck up and learning how to deal with life's problems as an adult.

 

re bolded: I think that some people in As are trying to grow up and live emotionally fulfilling lives. They may not be doing it in an easy or nice way, but they are doing it.

 

Because what they are facing otherwise is emotional death. That's how I felt.

 

I don't really care if it is behind someone's back who purports not to love their MP. If I didn't love my H, why would I care if he had an EMR? Unless I was worried about my pride or what people thought.

 

That's how I saw it at the time.

 

Your version of growing up seems to be sticking to a prescribed way of behaving.

 

My way is to question until I know.

 

I hurt people, and I hate that I did. I in no way see myself as responsible for the hurt of a woman who on many occasions stated she didn't love her H. Although I feel bad for that and that I was involved in her wake up call. To my own detriment.

[NoIDidn't]

re bolded: I think that some people in As are trying to grow up and live emotionally fulfilling lives. They may not be doing it in an easy or nice way, but they are doing it.

 

Because what they are facing otherwise is emotional death. That's how I felt.

 

I don't really care if it is behind someone's back who purports not to love their MP. If I didn't love my H, why would I care if he had an EMR? Unless I was worried about my pride or what people thought.

 

That's how I saw it at the time.

 

Your version of growing up seems to be sticking to a prescribed way of behaving.

 

My way is to question until I know.

 

I hurt people, and I hate that I did. I in no way see myself as responsible for the hurt of a woman who on many occasions stated she didn't love her H. Although I feel bad for that and that I was involved in her wake up call. To my own detriment.

 

It is an assumption on your part that I think growing up is sticking to a prescribed way of behaving. But considering the fact that you don't know me personally, I understand how you would reach such a conclusion.

 

It is immature to not deal with your problems with the person you have the problems with. If you have problems with your spouse, you should deal with your spouse. Not with someone else. It doesn't help fix your problem.

 

I am for finding the simplest answer that does the most good. An A is not a simple answer, and it does more harm than good.

 

Do not misunderstand my stance as saying that I would never have an A. Affairs are just not practical to me. Even if I do hate the W of the guy that I want to have an A with. Affairs inspire a level of paranoia and cynicism that I am not comfortable with long-term. I could not live my life wondering if his W told him not to talk to me anymore, or assuming that that is the case. I refuse to go forward in life hoping that I meant something to him, or wondering if we saw things the same way.

 

My mental and emotional health will not hinge on the feelings of others, or my assumption of their feelings.

[wheelwright]

WW, no disrespect intended but I am pretty sure that I could never agree with your statements about affairs, blame and assessment of how AP/WS should be viewed. You are and maybe always will be looking at it to ease whatever you dissonance you feel. I believe in covenant marriage and the things you continually state are in direct contradiction to that. Why would I view something that is contradictory to what I believe as a viable possibility for bad behavior.

 

God says we will all answer for our choices, not the choices or our parents, siblings or spouse. Whatever action that committed by someone against us, it is up to each of us to respond appropriately. I was not a perfect wife, he was not a perfect husband. He respond by cheating and emotional abuse and I responded by self medicating and a lot of abuse of my own. It does not matter who did what to the other...God is only going to judge each of us for our actions. (ii) There won't be an footnote with the words "but...he/she did so in so first".

 

I don't disagree with you that marriages that are stifling or lack what is necessary for healthy growth kill love...but there is no reason to look for it outside of that marriage. Leave first. I really don't understand the concept that my marriage was bad..so I cheated concept. It is inconsistent with what I believe God wants for marriage in general and me personally.

 

It is not difficult for me to see who is wrong in the dynamic of infidelity in a marriage. I view a trouble marriage and infidelity as two very separate and distinct entities. As does God. The two aren't mutually exclusive as evidenced by those couples who do not cheat when things suck. There are choices made by both parties to contribute to the health and well being of a good marriage as well as choices that contribute to the lack there of. But if affairs were made by consensus of both parties then there would be no need for secrecy, lying, gas lighting and general nature of bulls**t.

 

(iv)Your arguments have been totally in the direction of minimizes the responsibility of those who chose the path of cheating and place those individual choices in the laps of those who had nothing to do with it...less than healthy marriage yes...cheating no. Is Mr. Messy responsible for the years of thoughts of suicide and self medicating because he treated me as less a wife should have been treated? Should he have been held responsible if I had succeeded in the suicide attempt or would that have been entirely my decision. One that I made alone in my own head with my own thought process which he wasn't privy to? So why is it okay to blame a BS for a thought process they weren't privy to? I can honestly say that I don't think I am the only one who doesn't get your rationale.

 

I don't know where you are in your healing process and I do hope you are further alone than some of your posts suggest. I do get you are finding your way through your feelings and it isn't easy, but I do have one question....by your rationale... (v) what are you responsible for in your husband's unhappiness? If he cheats how much blame do you accept? If he leaves how much of that is all on you instead of his personal decision?

 

I thank God everyday that I won't be held responsible for the choices Mr. Messy made and I am equally grateful that he won't be held responsible for mine(because some of the things that I have done to physically hurt some people can be a b!tch at payback time). You will continue to look for reasons why you made the choices you made until you feel like you have reached something you can personally live with...that won't make it true though, it just means you can live with it.

 

Thanks for this reply Bent. It is great and I mean that. There is a bit of heart in it for me, but more than that you speak eloquently about important stuff - I generally feel these days you do that. That's something I look for.

 

I will respond to bolded.

 

(i) My recent posts are a reflection of my lack of dissonance - which I felt very painfully during stages of my affair, and especially in the time after DDay. I have sorted what I feel, and I went through a hell of looking at every angle till I got here. I can assure you I did not take an easy option - which I incidentally feel saying my A was fog would have been.

 

(ii) True!

 

(iii) That to me is like saying a kid is bad at school cos of the school, and his home life has nothing to do with it. Of course it's connected. Except where infidelity is used as abuse or is an addictive cheating thing. Then there is a connection, but a sinister one.

 

(iv) True they have. And I have reaons for it. And they may be less self-serving than you assume. Whatever WSs or OPs may have done wrong, it is up to all of us to show humility. Including BSs. I don't like self-righteousness or crowing. If everyone on here were promoting As, you would hear me shout about the rights of BSs. That's who I am.

 

(v) Good questions. I risked a lot on the strength of feelings I had for my xMOM. The goodwill of my H being the biggest risk. I have worked hard since DDay to get that back. I am lucky. I would have been responsible if it were lost through my cheating. And that would have been a huge blight for a number of people. And that would have been my fault.

 

If he leaves, that's combined effort.

 

If he cheats, I don't care unless it hurts others. He has cheated before.

 

If he leaves, it will be sad. It will be a relief. It will be the outcome of the R, and not a particular fault. I hope we both would learn.

 

It has been a traumatic journey finding my truth. My grief for xMOM has been immense, at a time when I was being told by many that it was only fog, or worse. I have wondered what it means to betray my H on such a grand scale, and if that means I am lost. I have questioned my love for H, xMOM, and my beliefs about love. I have thought about God.

 

I have been told what my feelings mean, morally, scientifically, practically, in the heat of passion, in the cold light of day.

 

I have been touched by the wisdom and experiences of BSs here.

 

And amazed that there were other OW who felt like I did.

 

I have not searched for what I can live with. I have searched for truth, so I find that last comment to miss its mark.

[wheelwright]

No action causes another. We are all responsible for the actions we take and how they make another person feel, but no ones' actions make us do anything.

 

If a person is feeling unloved in their marriage or other committed relationship, to the extent they want to look elsewhere for that fulfilment, they are free to chose how to do that - have an affair, leave the marriage, speak to their partner about their needs. If their lack of fulfilment is bad enough to seek it elsewhere, it seems to me they have nothing to lose by leaving the marriage.

 

But from the fact the WS rarely leaves his/her BS for the OW/M, it seems that his/her needs are getting met just fine at home and s/he actually has a deficiency within him/herself that gives the motivation to have sex outside the marriage/committed relationship.

 

As for the 'three great virtues' - I thought they were faith, hope and charity. But really, all virtues are 'great'.

 

Bolded - great points.

 

First I agree with loosely. But then the WS causes the BS pain by infidelity, don't they? You can't have it both ways (so to speak).

 

Second, well there would be a whole lot more divorce. Maybe that would be good. I clearly don't have fast rules about that set up in my psyche, or I wouldn't be a WS.

 

Why divorce, when you can work through your M issues, your childhood issues, and get your rocks off with an A? It's painful but it works. Like chemotherapy? Or an operation?

 

Drastic measures.

 

ps those last bits were tongue in cheek - sorry, but some don't get that and it's hard with the written word!

Edited December 11, 2010 by wheelwright

[bentnotbroken]

Thanks for this reply Bent. It is great and I mean that. There is a bit of heart in it for me, but more than that you speak eloquently about important stuff - I generally feel these days you do that. That's something I look for.

 

I will respond to bolded.

 

(i) My recent posts are a reflection of my lack of dissonance - which I felt very painfully during stages of my affair, and especially in the time after DDay. I have sorted what I feel, and I went through a hell of looking at every angle till I got here. I can assure you I did not take an easy option - which I incidentally feel saying my A was fog would have been.

 

(ii) True!

 

(iii) That to me is like saying a kid is bad at school cos of the school, and his home life has nothing to do with it. Of course it's connected. Except where infidelity is used as abuse or is an addictive cheating thing. Then there is a connection, but a sinister one.

 

(iv) True they have. And I have reaons for it. And they may be less self-serving than you assume. Whatever WSs or OPs may have done wrong, it is up to all of us to show humility. Including BSs. I don't like self-righteousness or crowing. If everyone on here were promoting As, you would hear me shout about the rights of BSs. That's who I am.

 

(v) Good questions. I risked a lot on the strength of feelings I had for my xMOM. The goodwill of my H being the biggest risk. I have worked hard since DDay to get that back. I am lucky. I would have been responsible if it were lost through my cheating. And that would have been a huge blight for a number of people. And that would have been my fault.

 

If he leaves, that's combined effort.

 

If he cheats, I don't care unless it hurts others. He has cheated before.

 

If he leaves, it will be sad. It will be a relief. It will be the outcome of the R, and not a particular fault. I hope we both would learn.

 

It has been a traumatic journey finding my truth. My grief for xMOM has been immense, at a time when I was being told by many that it was only fog, or worse. I have wondered what it means to betray my H on such a grand scale, and if that means I am lost. I have questioned my love for H, xMOM, and my beliefs about love. I have thought about God.

 

I have been told what my feelings mean, morally, scientifically, practically, in the heat of passion, in the cold light of day.

 

I have been touched by the wisdom and experiences of BSs here.

 

And amazed that there were other OW who felt like I did.

 

I have not searched for what I can live with. I have searched for truth, so I find that last comment to miss its mark.

 

 

I am sorry you were cheated on...I think cheating is wrong no matter what. But to compare a child and an adult who is supposed to know better....I can't see. When I was a child I understood like a child, I spoke as a child...when I became an adult I put away childish things I Cor. 13:11(completely paraphrasing here) but I don't see how you equate the two. Children aren't responsible for holding a family together, they are selfish by nature and they didn't ask and marry anyone.

[wheelwright]

I am sorry you were cheated on...I think cheating is wrong no matter what. But to compare a child and an adult who is supposed to know better....I can't see. When I was a child I understood like a child, I spoke as a child...when I became an adult I put away childish things I Cor. 13:11(completely paraphrasing here) but I don't see how you equate the two. Children aren't responsible for holding a family together, they are selfish by nature and they didn't ask and marry anyone.

 

Does that mean you agreed with the rest of my post then ?

 

I should have thought of a better example, but it's the one most pertinent. You have to extrapolate, and I agree that's not always possible. It's a metaphor here. I'll try and come up with something better.

[bentnotbroken]

Does that mean you agreed with the rest of my post then ?

 

I should have thought of a better example, but it's the one most pertinent. You have to extrapolate, and I agree that's not always possible. It's a metaphor here. I'll try and come up with something better.

 

 

Actually no. But it's late and we aren't going to agree...don't feel much like riding the pretty pony tonight.

[wheelwright]

It is an assumption on your part that I think growing up is sticking to a prescribed way of behaving. But considering the fact that you don't know me personally, I understand how you would reach such a conclusion.

 

It is immature to not deal with your problems with the person you have the problems with. If you have problems with your spouse, you should deal with your spouse. Not with someone else. It doesn't help fix your problem.

 

I am for finding the simplest answer that does the most good. An A is not a simple answer, and it does more harm than good.

 

Do not misunderstand my stance as saying that I would never have an A. Affairs are just not practical to me. Even if I do hate the W of the guy that I want to have an A with. Affairs inspire a level of paranoia and cynicism that I am not comfortable with long-term. I could not live my life wondering if his W told him not to talk to me anymore, or assuming that that is the case. I refuse to go forward in life hoping that I meant something to him, or wondering if we saw things the same way.

 

My mental and emotional health will not hinge on the feelings of others, or my assumption of their feelings.

 

I am sorry for assumption.

 

Bolded - very complex. But in essence correct. I am there now.

 

By the way, what does that mean in a M?

[wheelwright]

This is really well said WW:)...it would have taken me about 10,000 characters to say what you said!

 

Thanks Pure.

 

You seem to be doing good these days. Hope all's well.

[NoIDidn't]

I am sorry for assumption.

 

Bolded - very complex. But in essence correct. I am there now.

 

By the way, what does that mean in a M?

 

No worries about the assumption. I'm guilty of it as well.

 

Can you expand the question at the end of your post? When I made that statement, I was thinking more of the wondering what others I have dealt with romantically feeling - not so much in a marriage.

[wheelwright]

No worries about the assumption. I'm guilty of it as well.

 

Can you expand the question at the end of your post? When I made that statement, I was thinking more of the wondering what others I have dealt with romantically feeling - not so much in a marriage.

 

'My mental and emotional health will not hinge on the feelings of others, or my assumption of their feelings.' - NID

 

Because MPs assume/trust that their partner will not betray them by infidelity. And feel bad when that happens. I wondered if you would not feel bad in this scenario? That's a part of how I feel, but not the whole story.

 

I just thought there was a richness in this statement - one of those that seems true, and may be, or on deeper examination may not. And therefore reveals something else if discussed.

 

It speaks to where I am right now too.

[turnstone]

That's not what Newton claimed:

 

 

 

It's good enough for the Universe...

Yeah, because humans are inanimate objects with no will of their own and never influence their own destiny.</sarcasm>

 

Bolded - great points.

 

First I agree with loosely. But then the WS causes the BS pain by infidelity, don't they? You can't have it both ways (so to speak).

I'm not trying to have it both ways, can you tell me how I am?

 

Second, well there would be a whole lot more divorce. Maybe that would be good. I clearly don't have fast rules about that set up in my psyche, or I wouldn't be a WS.

Rather than divorce, fewer people need to get married in the first place.

 

Why divorce, when you can work through your M issues, your childhood issues, and get your rocks off with an A? It's painful but it works. Like chemotherapy? Or an operation?

 

Drastic measures.

 

ps those last bits were tongue in cheek - sorry, but some don't get that and it's hard with the written word!

I'm glad they were tongue in cheek. Advocating an affair to save a marriage is obviously puerile.

[wheelwright]

Yeah, because humans are inanimate objects with no will of their own and never influence their own destiny.</sarcasm>

 

I'm not trying to have it both ways, can you tell me how I am?

 

Rather than divorce, fewer people need to get married in the first place.

 

 

I'm glad they were tongue in cheek. Advocating an affair to save a marriage is obviously puerile.

 

Ok you sound cross to me. So I'll bear that in mind.

 

To spell out the both ways thing, it makes no sense to say at one and the same time that:

 

the WS caused the hurt of the BS by their actions

 

and

 

the BS didn't cause the pain and hurt actions of their WS's infidelity by their actions

 

(if you believe the cause and effect of the former, you have no reason to disbelieve it in the latter)

 

either you believe in cause and effect in a fairly simple way, or you believe things are more beautiful and complex.

 

I go for beautiful and complex. But then I'm a fool I guess...

[NoIDidn't]

'My mental and emotional health will not hinge on the feelings of others, or my assumption of their feelings.' - NID

 

Because MPs assume/trust that their partner will not betray them by infidelity. And feel bad when that happens. I wondered if you would not feel bad in this scenario? That's a part of how I feel, but not the whole story.

 

I just thought there was a richness in this statement - one of those that seems true, and may be, or on deeper examination may not. And therefore reveals something else if discussed.

 

It speaks to where I am right now too.

 

I would feel bad if I cheated and my H was hurt as a result - even if I felt that the A benefitted me in some way. I would feel bad if I neglected some aspects of my homelife obsessing about my lover. All of this feeling bad about the actual or potential feelings of others is a problem for me. Takes time away from things I'd rather be doing, feeling, experiencing.

 

I guess I'm selfish in a different way than that used to typically characterize "cheaters". I see no point to borrowing trouble.