Would you be okay with your girlfriend getting a drink with an ex?

[Ruby Slippers]

Vertex is an adult. Everyone here has spoken their mind amply. He has made his decision, and that's his right to do as an adult. Even in this ends up being a mistake, we learn the most from the mistakes we make, so like Miles Davis said, "Do not fear mistakes. There are none."

 

It is true to Vertex's character to give someone who made a mistake another chance. It's good to be forgiving and trusting.

 

I agree that the girl has problems that she will not easily or quickly resolve, but in any case, it's Vertex's call if he wants to be with her while she grows up -- and while he does, too.

[carhill]

Yep, my advice, although brief and a bit harsh, was predicated on repeated instances of being a forgiving sucker for many years and the harsh realities of the consequences of those choices. Fair enough. Owned. Hope he does better.

[Ruby Slippers]

I wish nothing but good things for this guy Vertex, although we are all stuck behind anonymity posting our experiences, it seems I am not the only one who can see the writing on the wall. I guess he has to learn the hard way.

I don't worry about Vertex. He's smart and has strong character. He will lead a fulfilling life of integrity because that's who he is.

[Els]

What he fail's to see and correct me if I am wrong is that his girlfriend lacks integrity, and he is ok with that. There is something wrong there.

 

I believe what he sees is that she is a human being with flaws who makes mistakes. Yes, hers are worse than some... and better than others. Besides, which flaw is 'worse' really is a subjective matter. Everyone has flaws, and what matters is whether or not their partner is willing to forgive that particular flaw and/or stay while they try to address them. Vertex has indicated that he is.

 

I would very honestly say that, from everything I've heard, I would much rather have her as a partner (assuming her gender is male) than lots of people here. There are people who do far worse things, and are lauded for them. For instance, I think people who cheat on their wife because she's pregnant and has a low libido are far, far worse. But the response to their threads here is even more sickening... some people actually agree with what they do.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Elswyth

[Mme. Chaucer]

I believe what he sees is that she is a human being with flaws who makes mistakes. Yes, hers are worse than some... and better than others. Besides, which flaw is 'worse' really is a subjective matter. Everyone has flaws, and what matters is whether or not their partner is willing to forgive that particular flaw and/or stay while they try to address them. Vertex has indicated that he is.

 

I would very honestly say that, from everything I've heard, I would much rather have her as a partner (assuming her gender is male) than lots of people here.

 

I feel this way too.

[Els]

Btw, Vertex, I just recalled something. You mentioned you were mainly only attracted to Asian girls. Is she Asian?

 

The reason I ask, is because many Asians who were brought up in the Asian culture are not taught to be blunt and vocal about their feelings and desires for fear of being WRONG, and are also reared to base their self-worth on how others perceive them. While this is no excuse, it is something you need to know, especially if you intend to continue dating Asians. It is the reason why some traditional Asian men, instead of communicating their 'dirty' sexual desires to their wives, seek out prostitutes on the sly instead. Also the reason a kid, sitting in a class where going to the toilet is prohibited, doesn't just stand up and say, "Look, Teacher, if I sit here any longer I am going to pee my pants, so I really need to go to the loo." No - he either really pees his pants, or waits til the teacher is gone so he can slink out. And who can blame him? If he had actually stood up and said that, he'd probably get the ass-whopping of his life, first from the teacher, and second from his parents when they call them in.

 

This isn't healthy, but sadly it's the way it is.

[Distant78]

Btw, Vertex, I just recalled something. You mentioned you were mainly only attracted to Asian girls. Is she Asian?

 

The reason I ask, is because many Asians who were brought up in the Asian culture are not taught to be blunt and vocal about their feelings and desires for fear of being WRONG, and are also reared to base their self-worth on how others perceive them. While this is no excuse, it is something you need to know, especially if you intend to continue dating Asians. It is the reason why some traditional Asian men, instead of communicating their 'dirty' sexual desires to their wives, seek out prostitutes on the sly instead. Also the reason a kid, sitting in a class where going to the toilet is prohibited, doesn't just stand up and say, "Look, Teacher, if I sit here any longer I am going to pee my pants, so I really need to go to the loo." No - he either really pees his pants, or waits til the teacher is gone so he can slink out. And who can blame him? If he had actually stood up and said that, he'd probably get the ass-whopping of his life, first from the teacher, and second from his parents when they call them in.

 

This isn't healthy, but sadly it's the way it is.

 

Generalization here, and it doesn't validate what his girlfriend did to him.

[Els]

Generalization here, and it doesn't validate what his girlfriend did to him.

 

It is a generalization; however, it's true in many cases. It doesn't validate or excuse anything, but he needs to understand this may be likely if he continues dating Asians.

[Distant78]

It is a generalization; however, it's true in many cases. It doesn't validate or excuse anything, but he needs to understand this may be likely if he continues dating Asians.

 

It's true but to lump all Asians in one box is ridiculous and there's nothing wrong with Asians.

[hART]

It's true but to lump all Asians in one box is ridiculous and there's nothing wrong with Asians.

Asia is a big country and Asians in America might be more Americanized than someone coming from the east if they grew up here. This is a big issue with minorities, because when they go to where their family is from they are considered "white/American", but in America they are minorities. For example, I am from jewish decent, but know little about the culture or faith or behavior, so therefore I am primarily American in identity. Is she a shy/passive person? The only thing that bothers me about that if she is, then why would she initiate contact with him and then lie.

[lamaman3]

Honestly man - I feel really bad for your girlfriend. She sounds like a cool and loving girl who wanted to have a friendly catch up with an ex onetime to see whats new in his life. She even told him about you.

 

Yea she said he contacted her and sounded creeped out about it - but if you've had alot of experience with women - you know that THEY ALL do this and its completely innocent. They go out and act creeped out when men hit on them - but why do they then spend 2 hours getting ready to go out to make themselves look as hot as possible? Its just a way for women to feel good about themselves, and in this case, to not make you jealous or cause unnecessary problems with your relationship.

 

The minute you had that first awkward conversation she freaked out because she could tell you were jealous and then tried damage control to make you feel good and not cause unnecessary problems with the relationship and not lose you to your own jealousy.

 

Everyone needs to have some privacy in their life - if you don't think so then I invite you to go ahead and give her your username on LS and let her browse through every single post youve ever written on here. Don't want to do that? Would you be embarrassed if she did that? Now you know how she feels knowing someone read through her private conversations. Too bad she assumed you would respect her privacy and decided to let her hair down and use your computer for her facebook.

 

I think you are going to see some problems come up in your relationship now. Imagine if you had an ex who mentioned that she had a new boyfriend but said you should have a friendly catch up sometime. Now imagine she sends you another message saying her boyfriend had seen the message by hacking her account and forbids her to see you or contact you and now he will spend weeks discussing her feelings about you. What would you conclude about that guy? Personally, I would feel bad for my gf that she has to be with a man who dosent let her live life and express her loving shining personality - I'd also think the guy has some MAJOR insecurity issues to work out.

 

Forget about trying to psychoanlayze her behavior - her behavior is COMPLETELY normal. If anyone is going to have to examine their issues its you with insecurity issues.

[durkadurka]

Honestly man - I feel really bad for your girlfriend. She sounds like a cool and loving girl who wanted to have a friendly catch up with an ex onetime to see whats new in his life. She even told him about you.

 

Yea she said he contacted her and sounded creeped out about it - but if you've had alot of experience with women - you know that THEY ALL do this and its completely innocent. They go out and act creeped out when men hit on them - but why do they then spend 2 hours getting ready to go out to make themselves look as hot as possible? Its just a way for women to feel good about themselves, and in this case, to not make you jealous or cause unnecessary problems with your relationship.

 

The minute you had that first awkward conversation she freaked out because she could tell you were jealous and then tried damage control to make you feel good and not cause unnecessary problems with the relationship and not lose you to your own jealousy.

 

Everyone needs to have some privacy in their life - if you don't think so then I invite you to go ahead and give her your username on LS and let her browse through every single post youve ever written on here. Don't want to do that? Would you be embarrassed if she did that? Now you know how she feels knowing someone read through her private conversations. Too bad she assumed you would respect her privacy and decided to let her hair down and use your computer for her facebook.

 

I think you are going to see some problems come up in your relationship now. Imagine if you had an ex who mentioned that she had a new boyfriend but said you should have a friendly catch up sometime. Now imagine she sends you another message saying her boyfriend had seen the message by hacking her account and forbids her to see you or contact you and now he will spend weeks discussing her feelings about you. What would you conclude about that guy? Personally, I would feel bad for my gf that she has to be with a man who dosent let her live life and express her loving shining personality - I'd also think the guy has some MAJOR insecurity issues to work out.

 

Forget about trying to psychoanlayze her behavior - her behavior is COMPLETELY normal. If anyone is going to have to examine their issues its you with insecurity issues.

 

 

Wow I don't even know where to start with how wrong this post is.

 

Just because every girl does it doesn't mean it's a good thing to do, and it broadcasts all the wrong messages in the beginning of a relationship.

[lamaman3]

Had to chime in on this saying, I feel sorry for the poor guy that's dating my ex, she came with me to Vegas this weekend and even though we didn't do anything too intimate, that guy has no clue.

 

Hah.

 

Considering he is screwing her while you are paying for her to have a sexless all expense paid trip to vegas so she can drunkenly dump her emotional baggage on you, I'm not sure its him thats getting the short end of the stick here......

[Els]

Asia is a big country and Asians in America might be more Americanized than someone coming from the east if they grew up here. This is a big issue with minorities, because when they go to where their family is from they are considered "white/American", but in America they are minorities. For example, I am from jewish decent, but know little about the culture or faith or behavior, so therefore I am primarily American in identity. Is she a shy/passive person? The only thing that bothers me about that if she is, then why would she initiate contact with him and then lie.

 

It's true but to lump all Asians in one box is ridiculous and there's nothing wrong with Asians.

 

You people are not reading my post thoroughly. Firstly, I said 'many Asians', not 'all Asians'. Of course there is nothing wrong with Asians, but we have our own flaws which are inherently different from those of people raised in Western cultures. Secondly, I said 'an Asian raised in a traditional Asian culture'. If the person is a 2nd/3rd generation American and her parents have adapted completely to American culture, then my point is moot. Thirdly, I realize Asia is a big continent, because as a Chinese myself, I was born in it and lived there for 20+ years. However, our education and family systems are more alike than you would think, and are very different from Western ones.

 

You can go ahead and be PC all you like, but you'd better have something to substantiate your claims, that surpasses mine of having lived in a Chinese family and studied in a Malay school, and having had close friends of Chinese, Malay, Indian, and Japanese descent.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Elswyth

[sumdude]

Yep, my advice, although brief and a bit harsh, was predicated on repeated instances of being a forgiving sucker for many years and the harsh realities of the consequences of those choices. Fair enough. Owned. Hope he does better.

 

My advice came from the same place so I'm with ya on that. At this point the issue was confronted rather than allowed to fester which is good. He's chosen to forgive her, this time. Now she's on notice and will have to continue prove to Vertex that's she's worth it. He'll find out if it's a one time thing or a pattern of behavior eventually.

[Els]

My advice came from the same place so I'm with ya on that. At this point the issue was confronted rather than allowed to fester which is good. He's chosen to forgive her, this time. Now she's on notice and will have to continue prove to Vertex that's she's worth it. He'll find out if it's a one time thing or a pattern of behavior eventually.

 

Yup, agreed.

[VertexSquared]

Sorry guys, was away for a few days.

 

Yep, my advice, although brief and a bit harsh, was predicated on repeated instances of being a forgiving sucker for many years and the harsh realities of the consequences of those choices. Fair enough. Owned. Hope he does better.

 

Thank you for the advice. I have a question, though. Do you imply though that forgiveness is often taken advantage of? That people are somehow incapable of fixing their mistakes? Do you find this to be empirically true in your experiences?

 

 

 

I don't worry about Vertex. He's smart and has strong character. He will lead a fulfilling life of integrity because that's who he is.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

 

Btw, Vertex, I just recalled something. You mentioned you were mainly only attracted to Asian girls. Is she Asian?

 

The reason I ask, is because many Asians who were brought up in the Asian culture are not taught to be blunt and vocal about their feelings and desires for fear of being WRONG, and are also reared to base their self-worth on how others perceive them. While this is no excuse, it is something you need to know, especially if you intend to continue dating Asians. It is the reason why some traditional Asian men, instead of communicating their 'dirty' sexual desires to their wives, seek out prostitutes on the sly instead. Also the reason a kid, sitting in a class where going to the toilet is prohibited, doesn't just stand up and say, "Look, Teacher, if I sit here any longer I am going to pee my pants, so I really need to go to the loo." No - he either really pees his pants, or waits til the teacher is gone so he can slink out. And who can blame him? If he had actually stood up and said that, he'd probably get the ass-whopping of his life, first from the teacher, and second from his parents when they call them in.

 

This isn't healthy, but sadly it's the way it is.

 

Yes, I am white and she is Asian/Chinese.

 

I do agree with a lot of your points. Her family is not very vocal about feelings to one another. I know that my girlfriend and her mom, for instance, do things for each other but rarely express love (hugs, love-yous, etc). Her dad was also somewhat strict and I think this contributed to her lack of expression (he passed away years ago, however). I've definitely factored this into things.

 

Again, while I understand that it doesn't necessarily justify a wrong being right, it does help to understand the background a bit. She was born/raised here in America, however, if that helps any.

[Els]

Yes, I am white and she is Asian/Chinese.

 

I do agree with a lot of your points. Her family is not very vocal about feelings to one another. I know that my girlfriend and her mom, for instance, do things for each other but rarely express love (hugs, love-yous, etc). Her dad was also somewhat strict and I think this contributed to her lack of expression (he passed away years ago, however). I've definitely factored this into things.

 

Again, while I understand that it doesn't necessarily justify a wrong being right, it does help to understand the background a bit. She was born/raised here in America, however, if that helps any.

 

That's great. While her being raised in America helps integrate her into American society, her family's culture may have an impact too, as you mentioned. I'm sincerely crossing my fingers for you that she'll make the most of the 2nd chance you gave her, and that your relationship will flourish from here on.

[carhill]

Do you imply though that forgiveness is often taken advantage of? That people are somehow incapable of fixing their mistakes? Do you find this to be empirically true in your experiences?

If the forgiveness is of actions reflective of a basic psychological and/or emotional 'style', the Hoover news IME is pretty grim. Unhealthy incursions by such aspects of personality, even recognized and purportedly accepted as unhealthy, can be exceedingly difficult to change, hence have a high probability of repeat.

 

In your case, I'll offer an example, and it reflects my question of wondering why Mike dumped her. Are her actions reflective of a life crisis, incongruent with her basic emotional and personality style, or are they consistent with her behaviors and perspectives over time? For example, did she suddenly become deathly ill, lose a parent to death or illness, re-live a past life trauma like rape, etc, etc. ? In the midst of that trauma, did she exhibit behaviors out of the norm for her psychology and history?

 

That's the key balance I've discovered from my own personal journey as well as long experience with other people in relationships and being married.

 

In all instances, I think forgiveness can be a valid action and tool for moving forward; however, forgiveness doesn't have to equate with continuing the relationship. One merely forgives the hurtful actions and accepts them as such, without prejudice. It facilitates moving on without residual hurt, anger, or hate. It's kind of like erasing the chalkboard, leaving room for new experiences to populate it.

 

So, if these actions from your GF are shockingly out of the ordinary for her and she has sought foregiveness with a clear plan of action to recover the relationship to a healthy place, I would be inclined to follow forgiveness with working on the relationship. If not, I'd forgive and end the relationship. Only you know the true particulars in enough detail to form healthy conclusions for yourself in alignment with your personal boundaries. Respect those boundaries and expect her to respect them as well. Boundaries are where it gets real. What goes on there will bring a lot of clarity. Hope it works out.

[VertexSquared]

We've both experienced life crises, of sorts -- she lost her father to cancer at 13-14 and I lost mine to an accident at 18.

 

I am not entirely sure why Mike dumped her. According to her, though, all her relationships have ended abruptly and without warning after 5-6 months, and always with the sort of "It's not you/it's me/I can't see this growing into anything more than it is now" logic. Sex was apparently mediocre (many of her exes had low sex drives/impotence issues) and communication was never deep. She also found it hard to be herself out of fear of what others would think, and she'd similarly find it hard to bring up something that was bothering her because she feared that the guy would just leave instead of sticking around to listen.

 

One of her best friends, who we'll call Jane, has also told me that men have largely mistreated her in the past (Jane also heavily berated my girlfriend for this lying-incident because apparently this relationship is so much more healthy). My girlfriend is definitely an easily-frazzled scaredy-cat type when it comes to stress (but nothing a hug/kiss and a mutual trip to the local tea/gelato stop won't fix).

 

Regarding your final point, it's hard for me to say. Within the context of the relationship, I think this is quite erratic of her. She's always been relatively forthcoming with me and we talk many things out, kiss-and-make-up, etc. Then again, it's only been 6.5 months or so. I really hope this doesn't happen again.

 

I'd like to better understand her past so that I can better comprehend her current personality and likely issues, as well as how to resolve said issues.

[carhill]

Thanks. Other than PTSD, like from a rape, I meant contemporaneous crisis. For example, my father died when I was a young adult and it was quite disturbing at the time but has/had no impact on the man I was 20 years later during my marriage.

 

Her emotional 'style' can be 'scaredy-cat', 'easily frazzled' when faced with stress, yet she can still make decisions in accordance with her boundaries. Style and action are unique IMO. Shockingly out of character decisions and choices can be a sign of poorly developed and enforced boundaries. This was the case in my situation. My exW didn't want to 'take on' the project and chose to divorce me instead. The difference was we were faced with a life crisis during our marriage where I'm not getting that feeling from you regarding your girlfriend. Past hurts and unhealthy relationships, yes.

 

Also, the pattern of her relationships ending after 5-6 months is an important indicator of her 'style'. One potential is, at this point, intimacy reaches a level where she feels out of control and seeks to balance herself by seeking out intimacy more in line with her comfort zone, whether by ending the relationship or pursuing another potential while still in it. This dynamic happened to myself and my exW at just about the same point in time, but I ignored this important sign and, like you apparently are doing, pushed through it and continued on. What I didn't adequately discern was that the depth of intimacy essentially stopped at that point and, hence, in my exW's case, became action versus emotion for her. She 'thought' the relationship instead of deepening her 'feeling' in it. Your path will be uniquely your own. I'm providing samples of potentials from personal experience.

 

Lastly, and this is another outgrowth of my divorce and the MC process, ask yourself how far and to what depth she's gone to *understand* you and proactively seek to *empathize* and show *compassion* for your perspective. Disconnect your attraction for a moment and look at it dispassionately. Who's doing most of the relationship 'work' here? I'm asking this question because, full of love, we have a lot in our love bank to give. Over time, without balance, those withdrawls can empty our love bank and leave us penniless and broken. Watch the balance carefully. It's easy to spend when one is flush with love cash. Words to the wise