What's best for me/her?

[starting2wakeup]

Dealing with my W since our last/sole MC session has been rather difficult. Save for 3 minutes this morning when she stopped by my office to pick up a child support check, we have only spoken over the phone. Our exchanges are brief and awkward, and given the circumstance I can't say I am at all surprised by this. I am surprised at how quickly she seems to get agitated with me now.

 

The other day she picked up our oldest daughter from school early as she wasn't feeling well. She called me at my office and asked if I could call our youngest daughters school to let them know that she was going to be picking her up early too. I told her I couldn't. I was at work. I had people waiting on me and things to do. She instantly got short with me and the conversation ended. Why couldn't she call I thought. You have a phone, you are talking to me right now on one. And isn't the number of the school programmed into your phone? Hit a damn button and call them yourself.

 

She has for so long relied on me for little (and big) things in order to get through the day and while I still have the urge to help, I also know I just can't do that anymore. Our girls were not in trouble and calling the school was by no means a priority. It's not like they wouldn't give her her own kid if she didn't call first. If she was calling to see how I am doing or to just hear my voice, that would be one thing, but her becoming so agitated so quickly make me wonder if she just doesn't get it. I was in the middle of work. I'm lucky to have a job in the first place, let alone one that allows me to get off early every other week in order to pick up my girls from school. I can not risk losing my job and she knows this. So why bother me at work with a simple task that she herself could do. It almost felt like a test and I'd like to think that I passed.

 

We did see each other the other night so I guess we have seen each other more than I realized. We both went to our youngest daughters Christmas school play. I was in a great mood. It is not my week with the girls so I was thrilled to see them and while I am not a fan of holiday songs, when they are sung by a bunch of preschoolers, it's freakin' adorable. My W on the other hand looked like her dog had just died. She barely spoke to me and while we sat on the same row for the program, we had the middle isle in-between us. I saved her a seat next to me but she chose to sit on the other side of the isle. There was a clear buffer between us and it was there because she put it there. It hurt for a split second but it passed pretty quickly. I was there to see my daughter sing Joy to the World and nothing was going to stop me from enjoying that.

 

This week without my girls has been rough, and it's only Wednesday. I'm trying to focus on me but it's hard. Take last night, I wasn't overcome with loneliness but I did feel stuck. I wanted to be productive but I could not get myself to move forward. I feel like I am just waiting for my girls to come back, for it to be my week so I can get back to being me, being a father. Thank God I have them for Christmas.

[controlledchaos]

i'm glad you enjoyed the holiday concert. i'm sorry things are tense. they might be for awhile. i know i have days where i'm totally cordial and nice, and days where i cannot be polite. however, i am also dealing with a man that is STILL spying on me ( and likes to point it out) and who provokes me and is full of contempt towards me.

 

we have VERY little interaction. VERY little. if we do communicate it's usually via text or face to face during exchanging kids.

 

that's good that you'll have your kids for christmas. my kids will be with their dad too. it's his weekend. so, i figured the kids and i will do some stuff friday during the day and then sunday when i see them again. i'm ok with it. and i'm glad that they'll have this time with their dad. i know they are partly excited and partly sad ( because we won't all be together). but, they know we're gonna do some special stuff after the 25th.

 

have you read the book "boundaries?" it's pretty good. even in just working out having bounaries with anyone, doesn't have to be a partner of sorts. i'm getting better and better at setting boundaries. they piss people off because i'm standing up for myself. but, *I* feel better about myself and my handle/ control over situations. i am not left with annoyance or anger because i know i did what was best for me ( or said what was best for me). being in counseling helped me see that i am not responsible FOR someone elses feelings. i only need to be responsible TO someone else. meaning, don't cause them pain intentionally, make sure my actions are moral and honorable. but, if i am honest with them and myself and they decide to feel hurt by my stance then that is THEIR deal, not mine. it helps a lot!

[debtman]

starting2wakeup, I hear you regarding the awkwardness with the ex and the loneliness of not having the kids, certainly the hardest part. I see my stbx 3-4 times/week while picking up/dropping off the kids and it's just weird. In Feb. her new boyfriend is going to be moving into our house so they can "try out" living together before deciding if they're buying a house together in May (which is when they have to be out and I get to go back, I'm living with my parents right now). I haven't spoken with him (I used to see him at volleyball until I said I was going to stop going and he offered to stop) since they started sleeping together last month, and that's going to be awkward, but, for the sake of the kids, I know that I need to get along with him civilly when I have to see him.

 

This will be my first weekend without the kids since I left the house (back in early-Nov.), so I'm trying to make lots of plans and keep busy. I'll call them every night, which helps a little, but there's just a big hole in my chest when I think of the time I am, and am going to miss with them.

 

On the plus side, when I DO get time with them (like tonight when I'll take them out to dinner), I get to focus completely on them with no distractions, no stress and no one second guessing my actions.

 

As far as being stuck, I hear you. Last night I was missing them, so I put on some sweats and spent the next hour working out, stretching and getting out some frustration. That helped...

 

Just keep "doing" for yourself and focus on making yourself happy. You deserve it! With each passing day it gets easier and time heals all...

[starting2wakeup]

Thank you to those who responded since my last post. It is more appreciated that I can ever begin to explain.

 

I spoke briefly with the W late last week about the holidays and the conversation did not go how I thought it would. Not that I wanted it to go a certain way (well, maybe I did) but I certainly did not foresee it going down the path it did. We were trying to figure out what to do on Christmas. I was under the impression that she was going to come over on Christmas eve so that we could have dinner as a family. Then she would come over early the next morning to see the girls open their presents. She informed me that she would just be coming over Christmas morning, which is fine, but it feels weird. We've had the same routine, as a couple and as a family, for over 10 years. Breaking that is strange. I'm not really sad about it... it's just different.

 

She also acknowledged (to my surprise) that she has been rather short and "mean" to me lately when we have spoken. She said she was mad at what our MC suggested, that we live our lives as a separated couple. I asked her why. What else did she expect her to say? She said that she was hoping for another option, that the MC would have a suggestion that would not separate us so permanently. I wanted to say, "It was YOU who has separated us permanently. YOUR actions", but I didn't. Instead I told her that I agreed with the MC. I repeated what was said in the first 5 minutes of our session. "You said you didn't want to be in any relationship right now. I understand that. But I'm in love with you and I want a relationship. Since you don't, I need to step away and heal, and try and work on me. I don't think you realize how much it hurts to be in love with someone, to see them everyday and KNOW that they don't want to be with you." I told her to let me know if she had any other suggestions but I didn't see any other way. I hate it. I don't like it. But I agree with it.

 

I went away for the weekend and stayed with a friend which was nice. We went to a local bar and caught a show and the next day we went to the city's IMAX theater to see TRON. It helped to get away for a few days but then today when I saw her, it was like I was back on day one. I start IC in after the holidays. I can honestly say I am looking forward to it. I just don't know how to act around her. I don't want to be cruel but I also don't want to seem like a push over. It's hard to be myself with so many confusing emotions.

[imagine]

This continuing contact is torture. MB advises to Plan A her for six months (for a man) -meet her emotional needs and no lovebusting (sounds like you have already done that) then go to Plan B.

 

Plan B involves writing her a love letter- you do insist on conditions for her return. All contact will be through an intermediary (no exceptions). This is to protect your love for her and prevent the torture of contact.

 

See "marriage builders" for a list of plan B letters.

[debtman]

starting2wakeup,

 

I don't think you realize how much it hurts to be in love with someone, to see them everyday and KNOW that they don't want to be with you.

 

I hear you. I see my stbx at least every other day when I pick-up/drop off the kids and talk to her on the phone/email almost daily. She already has OM in her life, but she calls sometimes and tells me that she's "not sure it will work out with him" and she misses the "comfort" we had together. So do I, and I miss being with the kids all the time, but I will NOT put myself in that situation again. I'm just starting to find moments of peace and beginning to see the potential for "getting over" this and moving on. It will be easier when the divorce is final in Feb. (and I don't have to think about my "wife" sleeping with another man in our marital home), but the OM is moving into the house on Feb. 1 (while I live with my parents) so they can "see if they're compatible" before buying a home together in May, when I get the house back and my life gets back on track...keep reminding myself this is a TEMPORARY situation and that I can USE this as an incredible learning experience about myself and relationships.

 

I also went to see TRON the other night at the IMAX.

 

I know it's hard...and even harder every time you see her...I try to keep reminding myself that I NEED to keep my emotions OUT of our interactions and that they will do nothing except muddy the waters. Focus on the mechanics of the situation. Don't be "cold" but try to keep some distance, to protect yourself if nothing else...

 

Good luck...

[controlledchaos]

this is our first year where christmas will be different as well. i decided to step back and really look at the holiday, what it meant to me and to my H. we have differing views on christmas and always have. i'm ok not sharing the eve or day with the kids because we've made alternative arrangements this year that we're gonna start as a NEW tradition. it took me a while to come to this acceptance but now that i'm here i am looking forward to it. i want my own time with them for this new tradition. especially since my H wasn't interested in staying together as a family.

 

i agree with the limiting contact. limit it as much as you possibly can. last year this time i was begging my H to love me, to work on things. to try and save us. he was supposed to have moved out after thanksgiving and he didn't. december was an awful month. he was telling me he didn't love me and couldn't remember the last time he did. he told me i was basically like a prostitute, using sex as my leverage. that me asking him to love him was me begging and complaining and he was annoyed with it. he moved out in Jan and we still talked a lot!! by mar. 1 that changed. basically the night i felt like my life and my kid's lives were in danger i realized i had to change something. so, i stopped interacting with him. it was the best thing i had done. it's HARD!! but, worth it. months down the road you'll see it.

 

and it sucks soooooo bad loving someone that doesn't love you back. i know it crushed me more times than i can count knowing he didn't love me back. most of the time it seemed he barely even liked me as a person much less loved me. hearing him tell me he couldn't remember the last time he loved me ( we were together 15 yrs) and that he wouldn't marry me again ( if he had it to do over) were such incredible punches i the gut! my feelings changed for good after the gun/ knives/ audio/ video surveillance. his actions spoke loudly and i didn't want to see what would come next. so, i backed off. it was a good choice.

 

you're not alone!!! enjoy this weekend as much as you can. start some new traditions with your kids! show them that you can have fun and enjoy the holiday!! good luck :-)

[debtman]

controlledchaos, thanks for the positive outlook. Reminding myself that things will get better and this situation is temporary is my only solace sometimes.

 

We're sticking with our previous tradition this year where I'll go over, make sushi dinner for the stbx, my MIL, and SIL and her husband and the kids. It will be weird, but the kids will be there and her family loves me and I feel the same. Starting next year, we have all the holidays "divided" according to the divorce agreement, so we'll only have to be together on the kids birthdays, which will be a positive move. Plus, once she moves out, we'll only have to see each other at drop off/pick up. Once both kids are in school, we won't even need to do that because they can just get on/off the school bus at the respective home.

 

starting2wakeup, stay focused. Work on yourself, treat yourself, be good to yourself. You deserve it...

 

And remember, some of the best advice I've gotten regarding how to "treat" the stbx,

"There's a difference between being friendly and being friends."

[KOSiz2Phacet]

controlledchaos, when I come across your posts sometimes I feel like I'm actually reading one of those books for women who have been abused. I have trouble separating fact from fiction sometimes, so please help me out: You stopped "interacting with him" and all of a sudden those grave threats to you and your children just stopped? Man that's wild, way wild. I mean, this bad bad man and his aggression just ... 'stopped', just like when you close the cover of a book. Open / close / open / close / ... if you do that fast enough and hard enough does that create the wind of change? Good luck.

[starting2wakeup]

LC has not worked for days and today was... I backslid people, big time.

 

My W's birthday was Wednesday. Since I have the girls this week I made a date for us all to meet up for lunch so that the girls could see her and give her her present. The lunch went well. We both got a little teary eyed early on but I managed to keep my emotions in check and believe me, it wasn't easy. She showed up for lunch dressed to the nines! She has said in the past that she likes to dress up because it makes her feel better and I'm sure this is true. I now do the same thing, try to look my best that is. Anyway, while she may have gotten all dolled up to ease the stress of getting one year older, the cleavage she was rocking, that was for me. I'm a boob man through and through. She knows its my kryptonite. I tried not to read too much into it at the time but damn if it didn't make lunch difficult.

 

I was surprised that she didn't ask to see the girls more. I know on my birthday all I wanted was to spend as much time with them as I could. Of course I feel that way every day. She did tell me at lunch that she had finally told her main physician about her eating disorder which I feel is a step in the right direction.

 

The days since, leading up to today were fine. While we spoke briefly on the phone we didn't see each other but for a few minutes yesterday morning to make plans for her to come over early Christmas morning. Today.

 

Usually on Christmas the kids are up by 5 am but by some miracle they actually slept until just before 7. My W called just before 6 to let me know that she was on her way over. When she got to the house the girls were still asleep and while I want to say that one thing lead to another, looking back, that simply was not the case. In record time we ended up getting rather hot and heavy on the couch. I'm not going to get graphic but for the record there was no intercourse. Good tidings were however had by all, if you get my drift. She initiated everything. Less than 5 minutes in the door she started to kiss me and before it went to the next level she asked if it was "ok." Obviously I said yes.

 

I make no apologies for this morning. It was nice. It was REALLY nice. It has been months since we've kissed (let alone anything else) but now, now my head is trying to make sense of it all. Not once did I think, "Oh great! Everything's fine and she wants to get back together!" I did think, "Was that my Christmas present?" I hate that I thought that but it's the truth.

 

All in all Christmas morning was kinda great. The girls had a great time and it was nice to have the family back together, or at least the feeling of such, even if it was for a few hours. There were a few tough moments for her. I had a couple presents from my folks that were clearly bought before the separation with both of us in mind.

 

When she left she told she me loved me. I told her I loved her and I don't regret saying it. It's the truth. BUT I am confused as all Hell now. I don't think she wants to get back together and truthfully, I'm in no rush either. I love her but we definitely have some issues that need to be worked out before I consider going down that path with her. What I'm struggling with right now is how, or even should I address what happened. Do I just keep moving on as I have been, or at least been trying and stick to LC? Or should I bring it up with her? Ask her what she is thinking because truthfully, at this point I have NO idea what she is thinking.

 

This confusion lead me to do something today that I haven't done in weeks/months and told myself I was never going to do again, I checked her FB page. For the most part it was like looking at a strangers page. She posted yesterday "I blew the perfect fairytale, but you can't find your dreams with someone else if you don't know what your dreams are." Post like that are the reason I stopped looking at her FB page. How in the Hell do I read into that? I know the answer, "Don't read into it. In fact, don't read it at all", and I agree, 100%, but this morning, the last few days... I'm confused.

 

debtman, controlledchaos, tojaz and anyone else on LS who have taken the time to give their opinions and share their stories, I thank you. I hope you have a Merry Christmas and that we all have an amazing 2011. Lord knows, we deserve it.

[Windsurf66]

OP,

 

I have read through your posts and here is my 2 cents.

 

I think it is quite clear what she wants. She does not want to be anybody's wife/gf/lover simply because she wants the freedom to explore and f*** around. Her past indiscretions point to this; that she had inappropriate emails to other men and she had been visiting the bars to meet other guys. And possibly, she may just be looking around for an open r/s at this point of time. Its not about the labels, which she has been using as an excuse, its about her not wanting to be in a monogamous r/s. Its that simple.

 

But she wants to keep u around, either for your friendship or as a backup, or for both. Her dressing up provocatively, is simply to manipulate you and string you along. Her saying that she "love" you, is also manipulation, because her words do not match her actions. She is manipulating you to string you along. That simple.

 

So what should you do? Well to me, i will just pretend to fall into her manipulation and let her string me along, while I am making plans for divorce and start meeting up other people to move on. At the same time, just enjoy whatever this whore is providing. She will most likely use her body to string you along well, at least that is what whores will do

[debtman]

starting2wakeup,

Puts you in a tough spot...just when you started to think you had "figured things out" and started to compartmentalize the old relationship, this happens and throws everything back up in the air. Based on what you've said before, it sounds like she's doing this intentionally to string you along, keep you as a back-up and make sure she has time to make sure she's making the "right" decision for her before she cuts you off entirely after finding someone else.

 

My stbx has OM and I can always tell when things aren't going "perfectly" with them or when he's out of town with his kids (and they can't talk because his kids and wife...also stbx...don't know about her yet) because I get lots more calls, emails, etc. She wants to be "friends" with me because she wants me there as a back-up in case things don't work out with him.

 

I keep reminding myself how she has treated me, how little she has thought of me in her recent decisions and I remember one of the BEST pieces of advice that I've gotten on LS..."There's a difference between being friendly and being friends."

 

That said, you may want to REALLY evaluate what you want here. Don't let this bump derail you and let you get sucked back in to a situation that will end up the same way it was before. What_Next and surfer203 are doing LOTS of work (MC, IC, etc.) with their cheating spouses to try to fix things and that's the ONLY way to avoid ending up in the same situation if they're going to try to make it work...

 

You may be better off moving forward with your current course of action, treat this as a one-night stand that means NO MORE than that and don't let her tempt you into being her back-up doormat...in other words, there's a difference between sex and a relationship...don't let one trick you into thinking that it's the other...

 

good luck...

[tojaz]

Thanks for the well wishes S2W, it sounds you had a somewhat merry all be it confusing Holiday.

 

I would post and suggest you ignore it, tell you not to over think it or read anything into it yadda yadda, but we all know you will. Who wouldn't.

 

Her intentions are any ones guess right now, I'd wager that she might not even know herself. She may be dipping a toe in the waters, stringing you along for some security, possibly a little bit of both. Biggest trap your going to find with what your going through is that we all look for logic and answers where there is none.

 

So, if you want to know whats on her mind, you have to make the decision of what you can live with. A. The pain of not liking the answer, or B. The madness that comes from wondering and playing scenarios over and over.

 

If it was me, I think i would see what her plans where for New Years, and if she where to try and initiate a repeat performance..... think about baseball and ask her what it was she was thinking. Once again though I refer you to scenario A. prepare yourself.

 

TOJAZ

[starting2wakeup]

Windsurf66, your scenario has certainly crossed my mind. I am proceeding with caution and appreciate you taking the time to express your opinion.

 

debtman, you are a stronger man than I. When I contemplate your situation I am amazing at how well you handle yourself. You are acting like an adult and that is not an easy thing to do, not matter what your age. The thought of my W with another man is disgusting. The thought of another man around my children is however infuriating! Personally I find your strength inspiring. The fact that you haven't marched up to YOUR house and knocked the SOB up side his head says a lot. It says that you have your head on straight. That you put your kids first and are a good parent. The Stronger Parent.

 

I am familiar with What_Next and surfer203 situation. I think everyone on LS is aware of surfer203's situation. You are absolutely right, I need to focus on what I want and let those goals guide me. There is no way in Hell I am going back to the way things were and even less chance that I will ever let someone treat me that way again, especially her.

 

tojaz, I believe you are right, I'd be willing to wager she has no idea what she wants. You are also right about me looking for logic in a place where it simply does not exist, so you're 2 for 2. You and debtman in particular have provided invaluable information and insight since I first posted on LS and for that I thank you! As to whether I should go with option A or option B... is there a option C?

 

I spoke with my W for just under an hour last night. She told me that she had a good time Christmas morning and made a point to tell me she felt "comfortable" with it. In the last few years of our marriage sex became a pretty big issue. My W was sexually molested by a family member at a very young age for an extended period of time. From the age of 14 she bounced around from one abusive relationship to the next before she eventually meet me. I took her away from all that. Anyway, a year before our separation she decided to seek therapy for what was later diagnosed as PTSD from her years of abuse. The therapy worked so much in that it brought the major incident from her past to light. When confronted the relative admitted to what they did and then, her family moved on like nothing had ever happened. It made me sick. Most, if not all of her family make me sick. My W attributes her PTSD therapy to a decline and eventually a disgust of sex. This was certainly true in our bedroom. Of course, it doesn't make any sense when placed within the context of her past indiscretions. At least not to me, but again, I may be looking for logic where there is none.

 

In keeping with the theme of surprising things my W springs on me, she also mentioned that she had been thinking about going, as a family to my folks house. I have the girls again this week and had thought about taking them to see their grandparents and new cousin (I recently became an Uncle). I was taken back that she had thought this would even be OK and that I would be into it but as she kept talking I was able to get a better read on her. As I mentioned, her family are THE most selfish people you will ever meet. My parents on the other hand are like Ozzie and Harriet. They took her in as their own and to this day she considers them the only real parents she has ever had. In a way I think that my W is just now coming to terms with her actions. She knows that she has hurt my folks and that they may never look at her the same. This is really making her depressed. So much so that she sent me an email this morning to reiterate how bad this past year has been and how bad she feels for hurting my folks. The email was more a less a little pity party for herself. Reading it all I could think was, "actions have consequences".

 

As far as moving forward, right now I am going to spend as much time with my kids as I can. I'm going to focus on them and myself. I have an IC appointment coming up with the same councilor who saw us as a couple earlier this month. I'm going to bring up what has happened since I last saw them and get their take on the situation. And keep posting, I'm sure I'll keep posting.

[tojaz]

tojaz, I believe you are right, I'd be willing to wager she has no idea what she wants. You are also right about me looking for logic in a place where it simply does not exist, so you're 2 for 2. You and debtman in particular have provided invaluable information and insight since I first posted on LS and for that I thank you! As to whether I should go with option A or option B... is there a option C?

 

Well the only option C is to shut down, cut bait, and move on. Your words don't strike me as the type that can do that so easily. Some can, I couldn't either, and to be honest, I'm pretty glad about that even though it feels like someone standing on your crotch in the moment.

 

She means a lot to you, so C. isn't an option because your going to want to exhaust all possibilities before that. I will tell you that Option A carries the most risk, but also is the only option with any chance of success.

 

Its interesting you make the connection of her family being selfish people and she now acts very selfishly as well. Thats called family of origin, she grew up surrounded by selfishness, thats what she knows.

 

Theres a lot of insight to be found in her past, all though there are no hard and fast rules there. As you start seeing how those dynamics are at play there, it will help you to understand a little about how shes seeing all this. Thats a big plus where your at right now. Shes throwing a lot of different messages out there, slow play it so you don't miss anything.

 

TOJAZ

[trippi1432]

My W was sexually molested by a family member at a very young age for an extended period of time. From the age of 14 she bounced around from one abusive relationship to the next before she eventually meet me. I took her away from all that. Anyway, a year before our separation she decided to seek therapy for what was later diagnosed as PTSD from her years of abuse. The therapy worked so much in that it brought the major incident from her past to light. When confronted the relative admitted to what they did and then, her family moved on like nothing had ever happened. It made me sick. Most, if not all of her family make me sick. My W attributes her PTSD therapy to a decline and eventually a disgust of sex. This was certainly true in our bedroom. Of course, it doesn't make any sense when placed within the context of her past indiscretions. At least not to me, but again, I may be looking for logic where there is none.

 

S2W - Where the therapy helped to uncover the abusive past did your wife and her family ever seek to heal from it? In that, I mean not only an admission by the abuser but her own parents acknowledgment of the role they played in the abuse?

 

Parents typically want to protect their children, and when abuse is at the hands of someone else (even a close relative, step-parent...etc), parents feel helpless. While the abuser might admit the abuse or even apologize, the scars run much deeper than that....to the point of the parent's own feelings of guilt (sweep it under the rug, get help for their own guilt, ignoring that the child needs help too, or blame the child).

 

If the therapy stopped once the admission was uncovered, all this accomplished for her, and maybe even her parents, was to dredge up old hurt and pain. That doesn't end with just an admission, she needs to hear from her parents that they are sorry that they did not protect her and her parents need to acknowledge that they did not do that job well...that really comes down to how willing her parents are in caring about her well-being. As parents, we all make mistakes, but they need to acknowledge her hurt and pain as a child for her to be able to heal her inner child which may be causing some of the issues you are seeing right now...just a thought.

 

It's no wonder she clings to your parents, they are obviously a well-adjusted and protective parenting role model for her. What you have stated about your wife attributing the therapy to her eventual decline and disgust of sex makes perfect sense that further therapy to heal her inner child was not met. I would say that she needs IC with a totally different counselor than who she had before.

[debtman]

starting2wakeup, tojaz and trippi1432 are absolutely correct. Sounds like your wife would benefit from more IC and from a different counselor to get a different perspective. Sounds like she's using you to help her bolster her confidence and address some insecurities she has. She needs to address those in herself instead of looking for someone else to "fix" them or tell her she's "okay."

 

Her reaction to "hurting" your parents is good in that it shows her remorse and guilt. My stbx knows that people (our neighbors, my family & friends) aren't happy with her decisions and she keeps telling me how "hurtful" it is to have people treating her like that and she can't understand why they're doing that to her...insanity...btw, thanks for the kind words, I'm working hard to let things go, forgive (but not forget) and to put her actions behind me and move on. I've done lots of counseling in the past and done several 12 step programs and the lessons that I learned there certainly help me focus on the important things...the kids. The support of my family, friends and people on LS have gone a long way to help me deal with the emotions, the anger and have kept me focused on the fact that this is TEMPORARY, and everything will be better down the road...and yes, I've certainly visualized the bashing in the door scenario several times, but I know it won't accomplish anything positive except for the momentary physical release.

 

It's good that you see your wife realizing some of the consequences of her actions, at least she's aware of reality and how her actions affect other people, but, if she doesn't get some help, to figure out the CAUSE and address it, any fix will be temporary and you'll end up back in the same spot...

 

Good luck, and keep posting...

[starting2wakeup]

tojaz, option C is starting to look more and more attractive. You are however right, I'm not the type to walk away without asking 20 questions first, even when I know I may not like the answers.

 

trippi1432, neither her nor her family have come anywhere close to healing. As for her parents acknowledging their lack or protection, there lack of even the most minimal of parenting skills, that is simply never going to happen. Her Dad left when she was a pre-teen and her mother is the most selfish woman who has ever walked the face of the Earth. She will never admit to anything. She no longer talks with her Dad (though she does have the desire) and while her mother is in the picture, she only shows up when it benefits her. As for IC, I have suggested that she seek new counseling as she has been speaking to the same one for far too long. Clearly, they are not getting anywhere.

 

debtman, as always, thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. You are dead right, if she doesn't start getting the proper treatment she will undoubtedly continue to make poor life decisions and I can not let those poor choices drag me and my children down with her.

 

OK, so I think I would like to change the name of this thread to 'What's best for ME." It has recently been brought to my attention that my W's employer may be more thanjust an employer.

 

Red Flag #1, a friend of hers, someone who really cares about her, told my mother about a "girls night" that they both recently attended. Apparently when ever my W would leave the room, all of the other women would instantly start to talk s**t about her. This upset her friend a great bit. She did step up for her but said that it was hard to hear her talk about her new job as it was clear that there was more going on with her new employer than just work. She told my mom how sorry she was for how things had played out as she knew how good I was for her and what a great guy I was in general. She also said that she no longer liked to be around her as it was too hard to hang around someone who constantly makes bad choices and then turns around and complains about them. This last statement struck a nerve as it sounds exactly like her mother, with whom my W dubbed the psychic vampire, because she tends to the suck the life out of you by simply being around.

 

Red Flag #2. My W took a night class just before we separated in a nursing field. It has gotten back to me that my W was brought up in the new class. While in training my W reported a local doctors office for improper procedures. This resulted in said office from refusing to corporate with any future nursing classes. This incident was brought up in the class as the teacher wanted everyone to know that if they see something wrong to report it to her first, as a past student had gone over the teachers head last year, resulting in a lot of problems. There was someone in this class who was repeating from last year. They of course knew that my W was the one the teacher was talking about. Turns out there was someone else in the class that knew my W. He had rode on a train recently with her to D.C. for her new job. Now I'm getting this info third/fourth hand but apparently on thios train ride my W was rather open about leaving me and going to D.C. to meet someone new, her new employer.

 

As I write this I am away from my home with my girls, visiting family. I want nothing more than to confront her with this new info as it has really put me on edge. I'm pissed and I want the truth. There are simply too many red flags and too much that does not make sense. I sent my W an email late last night asking her to come clean. I told her that I did not trust her and was sick of feeling like she is pulling something over on me. I told her to come clean, even if she thinks it will hurt me. Just be honest. Will I be happy if all of the above is true? No, but I do feel that presented with the truth, even half the truth, that I will be able to move on. If she is seeing her employer then I'm out. Forget a reconciliation, I'm gone. If however she denies it, which I think she will, I feel like I need to draw a line in the sand, to hijack a phrase I read on another thread. In fact, on said thread (titled "Hurt...) I read something that made a lot of sense. seibert253 posted a "game plan" that, at the moment, sounds like what I need. It went as follows

 

1. You need to have what I like to call a reality talk with her. This is where you tell her your expectations from her before you will even consider staying married to her. It is her choice to abide by these. You are not making her do anything, and make this crystal clear to her. But, make sure you let her know that if she choses not make this 100% commitment to saving your marriage, you will D her. Plain and simple.

A. End all contact with the OM, your marriage will never heal with a third party in the mix

B. Total transparency on her part. Free and total access to cellphone, computer, emails, etc.

C. MC and IC for her. If she does not address the issues which lead to her cheating, she WILL do this again.

D. She moves back home. You will never be able to verify anything she does if she's living somewhere else

E. She must abide by all of these, and this is not negotable

 

2. If she refuses these, then it's time to start the 180 right away. Read up on it here

3. Go NC or LC. If you have kids, then ALL conversations with her should be about the kids and finances, nothing else. No kids, finances only NOTHING ELSE. She calls, don't answer let it go to VM. She texts, don't reply. She needs to see you're not going to tolerate this lack or action and commitment on her part, you're preparing to move forward without her, and she needs to experience what life will be like without you.

4. Contact an attorney, have D papers drawn up, and have her served. Nothing shocks a foggy WS to reality faster than seeing and reading the D papers. (worked well for me)

 

The only issue I see with the above is that I do not want her to move back in. We have a separation agreement in which I made out very good. I pay her no alimony, I keep the house, etc. If she were to ever move back in, that agreement would cease to be. If at a later point we separate again, we would have to make up another agreement and there is no guarantee that I would get off as well as I did oh so many months ago when we first separated. BUT (notice that's a big but) she is currently living/renting a place from her employer. It's technically his house, though he does not live there at the moment, he lives in D.C. So there in lie my dilemma.

 

Now, more than ever, I need opinions. Right now I'm am thinking that I should wait until Sunday when I get back home and then confront her, face to face. On the other hand, the waiting is eating me up insde. Should I wait and talk to her face to face or should I call her right away?

 

Oh, she was also in the ER two days ago. She fainted while waiting at the doctors office. They said she had extreme exhaustion which sounds like BS to me. Her employer was with her at the time.

 

I swear, I don't know why I just don't walk away? We have such a history, two beautiful girls and, I do love her but she is surrounded by so much stress and pain.

 

I'm... hurt, confused, lost and f**king tired of feeling like a doormat/backup plan!

[debtman]

I know how you feel man. It's crazy, but, my advice is to let it go. You're better off. She doesn't sound like she's interested in REALLY changing, just giving the appearance of changing.

 

I had 3 different "conversations" with my stbx today, the first was a rant about how unfair the separation agreement we worked out together with the mediator was (we haven't signed it yet and it was 2 months ago we hashed out the part about the house, but NOW she has a problem with it...I'm sure after going through the details with her mom & OM). The second was just to let me know how selfish, unfair and vindictive I am and to outline everything I did wrong in our 10 year relationship. The third call was to say that everything would have been fine if I would have just answered her first question in the first call and to let me know that she hasn't "replaced" me with the OM, it was just "obvious" to her that I didn't want to spend the time with her that she needed when we were together.

 

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of listening to it and getting worked up over it. I love the time with my kids, I love the time I have on my own. I miss the "good" times we had, but I'm not willing to take those back if I have to have the "bad" times as well. If she was a "friend" of mine and we didn't have kids together and hadn't been married, I wouldn't hang around with her anymore. I wouldn't let someone else treat me that way and keep going back. I miss what we had, but it's over and we can NEVER get that back. Not since I lied to her about my finances 2 years ago (which she brings up EVERY time we argue, so, she has obviously never forgiven me as she said she did) and certainly not since she started sleeping with someone else.

 

She wants to move out of the house Jan. 1 into a rental home instead of staying there until May 1, which was the original plan because it would give me time to get back on my feet financially and give her time to find a house to buy so the kids wouldn't have to move twice. Whatever, I'll do what I need to do in order to afford mortgage, child support, debt payment, etc. I am capable of that. Now, I don't have to deal with the extra bs of having the OM move in to "try out" living together and I don't have to rush to put a new toilet in the bathroom so his kids would have an extra bathroom when they came for the weekends...NICE!

 

Anyway, I'm certainly biased, but, from the sounds of it, you're better off without the insanity in your life and your kids will be better off having at least one stable place where they can go to relax, have fun and spend quality time with you.

 

Good advice you posted as far as dealing with LC as far as kids go. I'm going to start focusing on that to avoid getting into more arguments that I don't feel the need to participate in anymore. She wants to divorce me? She'll have to find someone else to yell at, not me anymore...

 

Good luck.

[starting2wakeup]

debtman, you are right, it is probably best for me to go ahead, cut my losses and move on. The thing is, I know myself. I know I won't be able to move forward, Hell, to even catch my breath until I have talked to her. What I'm struggling with is, do I call her today and get the conversation over with or do I wait until Sunday when I can talk to her face to face? And even then, will that one conversation be enough? I think it will matter what comes out of it. I do know that right now I feel enraged and depressed at the same time and it's preventing me from having a good time with my kids.

 

I think that it is great that you will get to move back into YOUR house sooner rather than later. I hope the new year is a 1000 times more prosperous and fulfilling than the last. I know I am looking to 2011 as a fresh start personally. And I also thought the advise about dealing with the kids was spot on. I've already played out such a conversation in my head, to prep myself I guess. "Does this having anything to do with the kids? No. Then I don't want to talk about it." We're not husband and wife, we're not friends, we're parents and that's all we are ever going to be.

 

It kills me that I have this overwhelming urge to talk to her. I want her to know what I now know. I am fully aware that no good may come of a conversation with her but, it's all that I can think about. I want the truth as I feel it will set me free. But I'm also looking for the truth from someone who has proven herself to be less than trustworthy.

[tojaz]

tojaz, option C is starting to look more and more attractive. You are however right, I'm not the type to walk away without asking 20 questions first, even when I know I may not like the answers.

 

 

OK, so I think I would like to change the name of this thread to 'What's best for ME." It has recently been brought to my attention that my W's employer may be more thanjust an employer.

 

Red Flag #1, a friend of hers, someone who really cares about her, told my mother about a "girls night" that they both recently attended. Apparently when ever my W would leave the room, all of the other women would instantly start to talk s**t about her. This upset her friend a great bit. She did step up for her but said that it was hard to hear her talk about her new job as it was clear that there was more going on with her new employer than just work. She told my mom how sorry she was for how things had played out as she knew how good I was for her and what a great guy I was in general. She also said that she no longer liked to be around her as it was too hard to hang around someone who constantly makes bad choices and then turns around and complains about them. This last statement struck a nerve as it sounds exactly like her mother, with whom my W dubbed the psychic vampire, because she tends to the suck the life out of you by simply being around.

 

Red Flag #2. My W took a night class just before we separated in a nursing field. It has gotten back to me that my W was brought up in the new class. While in training my W reported a local doctors office for improper procedures. This resulted in said office from refusing to corporate with any future nursing classes. This incident was brought up in the class as the teacher wanted everyone to know that if they see something wrong to report it to her first, as a past student had gone over the teachers head last year, resulting in a lot of problems. There was someone in this class who was repeating from last year. They of course knew that my W was the one the teacher was talking about. Turns out there was someone else in the class that knew my W. He had rode on a train recently with her to D.C. for her new job. Now I'm getting this info third/fourth hand but apparently on thios train ride my W was rather open about leaving me and going to D.C. to meet someone new, her new employer.

 

As I write this I am away from my home with my girls, visiting family. I want nothing more than to confront her with this new info as it has really put me on edge. I'm pissed and I want the truth. There are simply too many red flags and too much that does not make sense. I sent my W an email late last night asking her to come clean. I told her that I did not trust her and was sick of feeling like she is pulling something over on me. I told her to come clean, even if she thinks it will hurt me. Just be honest. Will I be happy if all of the above is true? No, but I do feel that presented with the truth, even half the truth, that I will be able to move on. If she is seeing her employer then I'm out. Forget a reconciliation, I'm gone. If however she denies it, which I think she will, I feel like I need to draw a line in the sand, to hijack a phrase I read on another thread. In fact, on said thread (titled "Hurt...) I read something that made a lot of sense. seibert253 posted a "game plan" that, at the moment, sounds like what I need. It went as follows

 

 

 

The only issue I see with the above is that I do not want her to move back in. We have a separation agreement in which I made out very good. I pay her no alimony, I keep the house, etc. If she were to ever move back in, that agreement would cease to be. If at a later point we separate again, we would have to make up another agreement and there is no guarantee that I would get off as well as I did oh so many months ago when we first separated. BUT (notice that's a big but) she is currently living/renting a place from her employer. It's technically his house, though he does not live there at the moment, he lives in D.C. So there in lie my dilemma.

 

Now, more than ever, I need opinions. Right now I'm am thinking that I should wait until Sunday when I get back home and then confront her, face to face. On the other hand, the waiting is eating me up insde. Should I wait and talk to her face to face or should I call her right away?

 

Oh, she was also in the ER two days ago. She fainted while waiting at the doctors office. They said she had extreme exhaustion which sounds like BS to me. Her employer was with her at the time.

 

I swear, I don't know why I just don't walk away? We have such a history, two beautiful girls and, I do love her but she is surrounded by so much stress and pain.

 

I'm... hurt, confused, lost and f**king tired of feeling like a doormat/backup plan!

 

Ok S2W. Best piece of advice, and also the hardest to follow.....

CALM DOWN!

 

This my friend is a marathon, even if everyone treats it like a sprint. Its natural to want to jump to action with every new piece of information you get, but its all pieces of a puzzle that need to be assembled. Act on facts and whole truths, not on suspicions.

 

I'll tell you a hard fact. I acted on every suspicion I had, drew a line in the sand based on it. Ran with every scrap she gave rather then taking the time to let the story to fully develop. The exact opposite of how itreat the threads here...... I'm divorced! and, I never got the answers either!

 

Whats best for you depends on whats most important to you. The business side, or the emotional side, and right now those sides are at odds and have you protecting a separation that you do not want!

 

If shes playing the game dirty, she will trip herself up eventually. In the mean time, by all means be watchful and cautious, but don't go hanging your own skeletons in the closet. Showing her mistrust right now is going to do two things.... 1. If there is nothing going on in the shadows, it will demonstrate a lack of trust, more ammo for her to convince herself that the marriage isn't working and that mistrust will then be applied to everything you say and do from here on out, making you that much more suspect and undesireable. 2. If there is some hanky panky going on, shes going to try harder to hide it once your suspicions are known in order for her to buy time and save face.

 

TOJAZ

[Steadfast]

It kills me that I have this overwhelming urge to talk to her. I want her to know what I now know. I am fully aware that no good may come of a conversation with her but, it's all that I can think about. I want the truth as I feel it will set me free. But I'm also looking for the truth from someone who has proven herself to be less than trustworthy.

 

You're looking for real answers that give a definitive truth. You don't want to make decisions that will effect your future based on speculation, right? You want to know what she's feeling 'deep down'. You want to be sure.

 

Look, even if you were to get those things from her, how can you be sure it's the truth? You said it yourself; how can we trust the untrustworthy?

 

The best course of action for someone in your shoes is to base your decisions on her actions. They are incapable of lying. Her actions will show what she really wants, or at the very least, they will demonstrate her indecisiveness. She's likely feeling plenty of that, given there's still many unresolved issues concerning her 'old life'. Deep down, she knows what she's doing is wrong and that guilt is waging war with her selfishness. With all of that going on inside of her, how can you expect to get real, tangible information to base a decision on? Trust the old adage: talk is cheap.

 

I am not suggesting that you model yourself after me, but I was faced with a similar situation. My ex told me I wasn't being 'replaced' by her lover, but she confused the issue by telling me she was crazy (in lust) over him, and although she loved me, she wasn't in live any longer. Because she wasn't sure how it would all pan out, she kept me on a string...she threw me just enough bread crumbs to keep me hopeful. She didn't 'want' me, she 'needed' me. She needed me for all the things she needed me for before she cheated. This is the paradox of a cheater: I wasn't being replaced because her OM had no intention (or was unable) to provide to her these things. Yet, I was being replaced in her bed, and she took away her affection. Simply put, she wanted to use me. And she did.

 

Warped? Sure, but that's the cheater's logic and that is likely where you are with your wife too. My response? On the advice of some trusted friends I simply went through the agony of waiting it out for awhile. I remember marking a day six-months ahead. By then I decided, we'll either be reconciling or I'll be filing for divorce. In the meantime I left her alone, tried to be as cool as possible and didn't talk about 'us' when I did see her.

 

I filed for divorce two months after marking that date. When it became clear that she had no intention of stopping the pain she was causing me, my only recourse was to move away from it. Translation: I could not make the pain go away, so I went away from the pain. I could not decide for my wife, and you can't decide for yours. We can only decide for ourselves.

 

That was three-years ago, and since that time her cycle of anger, neediness, remorse and anger has been very consistent. She's went through a batch of men, while I've had two steady girlfriends; one that I've been with for a little over a year. She's great; kind, loving, independent and very pretty. I treat her well but have learned to base my decisions regarding our relationship by her actions. So far, they've been admirable.

 

While you really want to hear what you need to hear, my advice is to not hold your breath waiting. A loving wife is truly interested in your best interests. A bad one is only interested in her own. Who wants a bad wife?

Edited December 31, 2010 by Steadfast

[starting2wakeup]

tojaz, Calming down is not to easy but it does make sense. A whole lot of sense. I have not spoken to my W, at least about her employer, since my last post. She is still recovering from her ER visit so I thought it was best to give her her space and let her recover. Both you and Steadfast suggested that I foucs on facts and actions, so if you will allow me a moment, here are some facts, or at least the ones that jump to mind first.

 

Fact: in counseling my W said she did not want a relationship. Fact: My W later told me that she wished the MC would have suggested a plan that did not include us spending less time together. Fact: My W initiated an intimate moment Christmas Day, the first we have had in months. Fact: She is currently renting a place to live from her employer. Fact: Her employer's fiance recently left him. Fact: In the last 2 months my W has traveled to D.C. multiple times. Fact: Her employer lives in D.C. Fact: I have meet her new employer, I have however never meet his (ex?)fiancee. Fact: My W has been telling me/ texting me that she loves me more in the last two weeks than in the last two months.

 

I'm not quite sure what I should pull from all of that. Her employers fiancee leaving feels like a big red flag, though I heard that she had apparently asked for the ring back. I was told that her reason for breaking things off was because he found out his job (military) would be keeping him out of the states for several years. Of course, this is what I "heard", I have no idea what the actual facts are. I definitely get the feeling that my W has no real idea what she wants. Her life has turned completely upside down, all by her own doing.

 

tojaz, you had mentioned something previously about making connections with her and her family. It would kill her to hear it but she is in many ways acting like her mother, in that she keeps making poor decisions, which she feels are best for her. They then blow up in her face and she complains about it to those around her. Frankly, I'm tired of the drama. My W has always been surrounded by drama, most of which was not her fault, - illness, surgery, etc. It's hard to fault somebody for poor health but it does take its toll, still, she was/is my wife, I would do anything to help her. Now however I'm at the point, as are apparently most of her friends, where I just don't want to hear about it, her drama that is. It was one thing when she was my wife, or at least wanted to be my wife. I would do anything for my family. But she asked to be released from all that, from our material bond and so I did. Now I feel like, unless its about the kids, I don't care. I don't want to hear about her new life, outside of me, outside of us. If she's sick or hurt, yes, I want to know, I want to help, but everything else, it just hurts too much to even hear about.

 

You are right in that I do not want a separation but I also do not want her to think that she can just move back in and things will go back to the way that they were. I also don't want her to move back in and then turn around and leave again. Our girls are already confused as to the whole situation, though they have both proven to be far stronger that I would have ever imagined. Of course they do spend most of their time with me.

 

Steadfast, Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your own situation. Your comment about actions speaking louder than words has definitely struck a chord. I too think the guilt of her actions are starting to get to her. Her whole life she has struggled. With herself and her family. She has had past relationships that have literally left her broken and bloody. Then we meet and all of that went away. Me and my family took her in, showed her compassion, trust and love, and she walked away from that. Now she is back to struggling to even breath. I want to help, but I also realize I need to do what is best for me, what is best for my children. I'm no good to my girls if I'm left stressed and depressed at the end of each day from chasing a woman who does not want me and has in the past year showed me tremendous disrespect and neglect.

 

I am going home tomorrow. She is still not feeling well from her trip to the ER so I will be watching the girls again this week, which is fine by me. She did agree to watch them after school so that I can get in enough hours at work. I had previously asked to speak with her in person tomorrow night. I plan on not pushing the issue. I won't even bring it up but I know that I will want to talk to her. Even if she is not being honest with me 100%, I am going to be with her. That doesn't mean I'm going to show her my whole hand, but I do want to talk about the information I was presented with about her employer. My main concern is, if they is something more going on, I want to know because of my children. They have been around him, they know him by name though they have only meet him a handful of times. They have also meet his fiancee now that I think about so I guess she does exist. If another man is going to be around my children, I want to know about it. She can walk down whatever road she wants to, with or without me, but she isn't going to drag our girls with her, not without me checking a map first.

[Steadfast]

What I'm sensing from your post is slightly veiled anger that she's not more 'thankful' for the better life that you and your family gave her. This is common and again, I can relate. My ex-wife also came from a less fortunate family and I mistakenly thought that what I provided in the way of possessions and lifestyle would 'cement' her love and devotion.

 

It did not.

 

My mistake was expecting that, but it's common when we try to show a person what they mean to us. I didn't try to buy her, but I did expect her to show more appreciation. I realize now that she sensed this, and I see how wrong it was. I have nowhere to hide. That does not justify her cheating and I'm not saying this is the case with you, but I am making an example of how pride and seeking control can affect a relationship. In my defense, I didn't think it through and I didn't take the time to examine it.

 

We must examine our motivation. It is something we must constantly remind ourselves to do. The need to control is strong, but that isn't true love. That's what unconditional means; no 'conditions'. Think about it, and know it's a shame what we sometimes have to endure to realize this.

 

No question you must track down this suspicion you have regarding her boss, but you'd be a fool to think she'll give you any straight answers. The cheater's way is to have you read between the lines. That is to say, she'll boldly proclaim her need for freedom but won't say why she wants it.

 

Regarding the children, unless she'd declared unfit you'll have little say in where she takes them or who they are around. I am sorry to put this so bluntly, but you'll get a war if you start one. Best to play it cool and trust she knows what truly bad decisions involving her children might mean.

 

In the meantime, gain respect by acting like someone who deserves it. One trick I learned was to put the emphasis back upon them. Say; "At least I don't have to worry about the kids being safe when they're with you". This will encourage her to keep that trust, but at the same time let her know that you truly have the children's best interests in mind.

 

Stay cool, stay calm and know you can control only you. Keep posting-

[starting2wakeup]

Steadfast, I can certainly admit to being angry when she first told me she wanted a separation. I had/have done so much for her, without asking for anything in return and yeah, at the end of the day it hurt that there was no appreciation for all of the sacrifices I had made. Right or wrong, it stung. Here I had worked so hard to help provide a life she had only ever dreamed of and what do I get, left behind. I never tried to buy her love, Hell, most of my paycheck went to food and her medical bills, it wasn't like I had the extra cash to buy her expensive things. All I wanted was for us to be happy and for my family to feel secure.

 

I saw her today for all of about 15 minutes. After she saw the girls she gave me a hug that lasted for a good 90 seconds. I didn't bring up anything, about her employer or otherwise. BUT I WANT TO! I want to talk to her so bad it's killing me! I just have to think of a way to approach it.

 

Going back to acting on facts and actions, I found it very odd that she only spent 15 minutes with her own girls before leaving to go watch a friends kid. She (my W) looked like crap. It was clear that she is still not feeling well and should have been in bed. She even admited to feeling tired and needing to rest so it bothered me when she left, having only spent a fraction of her day with her kids, whom she had not seen since Christmas Day, to run off and baby sit some bodies else's. Oh, and to add one more Fact to my list, Fact: She gets a text every 5 minutes. It's annoying as Hell and VERY unattractive because the text always gets priority. She never texted before, but since she got her own phone... Thank God I don't have to pay that bill anymore because I'm sure it's through the roof.

 

I want to call her right now but instead I am going to watch a movie and try and go to bed, but... I really want to talk to her. I don't know how much longer I can hold out. I just have to make sure that when we do talk I am in control of myself and my emotions.