Jesus--not real?

[BrainRightHeartWrong]

jesus did exist because jesus built my hotrod!

 

sorry for that one but these conversations always never have a definate conclusion

 

the answer is 43

[moimeme]

going to be somehow separated from the rest of humanity after this life just because they believe in something other than the teachings of Christ

 

Please bear in mind that only some denominations plus the fundamentalists believe that heaven is reserved for Christianity alone.

 

the answer is 43

 

Nope. Used to be 42. Now it's 469

[amerikajin]

I understand that, moimeme, but that only underscores my point: Christians can't even agree as to the teachings of Christ.

 

I think that's why it's much more practical for Christians to say "Those who practice the virtues of Christ are going to heaven" rather than saying "Those who believe in Christ are going to heaven." It's not the belief that counts it's the action.

 

Yes, religion can be a touchy subject for me. Lots of people like to walk around and talk about how moral they are and how moral others aren't, and they try to force the rest of us to live according to their standards of worship - standards which they often fail to live up to themselves. Wanna worship your God, fine? Worship your God. But don't try to vote people into office who are going to use your God to try and run my life. I can run my own damn life, thank you.

 

We've got this God damned jack ass in the White House right now - talking about how moral he is and trying to rub out others who aren't as moral as he and his Christian band of brothers. Yet here they are...lying through their teeth, concocting an excuse to rain down payloads of destruction upon foreigners in the name of American values. Those aren't my values, and I'm an American.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by amerikajin

Muslims believe he was THE divine messiah or A messiah?

Everything that Christians believe about Jesus, Muslims subscribe to as well. The resurrection, the salvation, the ascenscion, etc., They don't make a big deal out of Jesus, just like Christians don't make a big deal out of Moses--but they certainly consider the New Testament as part of their scriptures. Some Muslim extremists deny the divinity of Christ, they are not the norm. Muhammad was not divine, he was a military leader who was, as Muslims believe, the final prophet of Allah, and the Qu'ran is his testament. Christians deny that Muhammad's testament is God's final say--and that's the difference. Jesus has nothing to do with such a disagreement. In addition, Sunni and Shi'ite muslims both, as far as I know, recognize Christ--their split comes from a struggle over who would secede Muhammad after he died.

How much better this world would be if we'd all just follow that one simple piece of advice and throw all of the dogma out the window.

I've stated before that I felt that God needed different religions, that is different ways of presenting himself, to different people and cultures. That's just my belief, and I feel it accomplishes both faith in something, while not propagating the hate that comes with not accepting other beliefs.

You see, that's what I don't get. Why did God create us and why is he going to judge us if he already knows which way we're going to lean? Do we exist for no purpose other than the amusement of some bored God who's sitting above watching this unfold and laughing his ass off: "Yeah, I knew Lee Harvey Oswald was gonna whack JFK but s***, had to give the boy a chance, you know?"

You're thinking of God as a giant human, as if his thought proccesses are in our realm of understanding. Amerikajin, it's quite easy to find fault in something, if that's what you're looking for. Spiritually, you and I really aren't that different. Except that when I have questions, I search for the answers, but when you have questions, you prefer the questions unanswered, because unanswered questions are great evidence of fault.

but there is a scripture that tells us that Jesus wants us to be either hot or cold because he will spit out those who are lukewarm

You added the "Jesus" part, these are apocolyptic words, and I'd have trouble explaining why that has nothing to do with Christianity or faithfulness--but read some of the many commentaries on Revelations--Sir Issac Newton and Matthew Henry come to mind.

[moimeme]

Christians can't even agree as to the teachings of Christ

 

Well, that would have much to do with the fact that 'Christianity' encompasses a large number of denominations. I'd be mighty frightened, Amerikajin, if every single Christian parroted exactly the same dogma. That could only mean brainwashing and cultism. The fact that Christians don't agree means merely that they are flawed humans and therefore may have goofed somewhere along the way in their interpretation of what went on.

 

Don't blame all Christians for the sins of some, please. It's as bad as hating all men because some men cheat.

[amerikajin]

>>>You're thinking of God as a giant human, as if his thought proccesses are in our realm of understanding. Amerikajin, it's quite easy to find fault in something, if that's what you're looking for. Spiritually, you and I really aren't that different. Except that when I have questions, I search for the answers, but when you have questions, you prefer the questions unanswered, because unanswered questions are great evidence of fault. <<<

 

Not so, Dyer. I search for the answers just like you, but my search comes through reflection based on my experiences - not someone else's writings. My attitudes are, as one would expect, different at age 30 than they were at age 15, and I'm sure they'll be much different when I'm 45. I think that each day we get a little closer to understanding God in our own way, but it's not through scripture or the manuals written by someone 2000 years ago (that's my opinion anyway). Rather, it comes through the careful study of one's own experience in this life.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by amerikajin

Rather, it comes through the careful study of one's own experience in this life.

It seems that's brought you to exactly the place I've described--that unanswered questions are evidence of fault.

 

Your careful study has brought you to:

 

"Lots of people..."

 

"You see, that's what I don't get..."

 

"Isn't it funny how..."

 

"I find it odd that..."

 

etc.

[amerikajin]

>>>It seems that's brought you to exactly the place I've described--that unanswered questions are evidence of fault. <<<

 

Well at the risk of getting into semantics with someone who's probably better equipped to win this battle than I am ....I will say that I'm not sure if I'm prepared to say that unanswered questions are evidence of "fault". The only thing I can say is that the unanswered questions are just that: unanswered questions. That's why I have a hard time with the tyrannical majority of people who subscribe to a given religion foisting their beliefs upon others. With so many unanswered questions, how can someone be so sure as to say "This is how we're going to regulate our society?"

 

>>>Your careful study has brought you to<<<

 

Yes, it has brought me to exactly the place you've described. Trust me, in 15 years, you'll be a different man. I'm not saying you will believe exactly as I do or even come close to it. We all have different experiences, but it's these experiences that will shape us as individuals. Your experiences won't be found in the Bible, they'll be experienced by you firsthand - that's my point.

[dyermaker]

No, what I meant about fault is that you'll find questions such as "How can a God send people who believe in other religions to Hell?" and use that as evidence against religion in general--instead of searching for answers, a good place to start would be baptism by fire and circumstance, and catechismal references that state a belief in Christ isn't valued any more above a good heart and conscience--and that we truly don't know who's going to hell and who is not.

 

And, please, enough of the examples of Christians who suck. There are plenty of atheists who are quite lame, should they speak for all atheists? or in your case, I think, Deists?

[End of my rope]

First off, amerikajin, do you intentionally single out my post to pick apart? You pick it apart and look at it's individual parts and not as a whole.

 

You said:

 

You see, that's what I don't get. Why did God create us and why is he going to judge us if he already knows which way we're going to lean? Do we exist for no purpose other than the amusement of some bored God who's sitting above watching this unfold and laughing his ass off: "Yeah, I knew Lee Harvey Oswald was gonna whack JFK but s***, had to give the boy a chance, you know?"

 

I believe that sonofhud answred that question best in a post subsequent to mine...

 

Originally posted by sonofhud

Sometimes my parents would tell me not to do something, knowing full well the choice I would make, yet they still allowed me to make the wrong choice to learn. I think its probably the same way with God.....but I do believe he is all knowing. The Bible says he knows the number of hairs on our heads.

 

God created us, he knows us better than we know ourselves, and the one thing he can't make us do is all he wants us to do.

 

Dryer, you stated:

 

I've stated before that I felt that God needed different religions, that is different ways of presenting himself, to different people and cultures. That's just my belief, and I feel it accomplishes both faith in something, while not propagating the hate that comes with not accepting other beliefs.

 

I agree with this theory completely. I've heard one similar to it once before...

 

Your experiences won't be found in the Bible, they'll be experienced by you firsthand - that's my point.

 

The Bible is a guide for us to live our lives by, it's not meant to replace life.

 

Lots of people like to walk around and talk about how moral they are and how moral others aren't, and they try to force the rest of us to live according to their standards of worship - standards which they often fail to live up to themselves. Wanna worship your God, fine? Worship your God. But don't try to vote people into office who are going to use your God to try and run my life. I can run my own damn life, thank you.

 

America was born out of religous persecution. Our fore fathers came here so that we could worship God any way we pleased. Frankly I don't want someone in the office of Presidency who isn't a believer in God. It's bad enough that the non believers take away our Pledge of Alliegence in schools and our Ten Commandments at court houses, but to say that we shouldn't put someone in office that is going to use God as a guide? That's crazy.

 

(Now before I get picked apart for that sentence I would like to say that I don't condone what happened with the public being intentionally mislead by our government. Nor do I think that it should be blamed on his belief in God.)

 

On a side note, no one is forcing you to worship "OUR GOD". Worship Aliens if you wish to.Moral standards are a neccesity in a civilized culture, with out it we would have total chaos.

[dyermaker]

End of my rope, nonreligious people have morals as well. The belief in a religion is NOT neccessary for one to be moral, and in some cases, it's the religious people who are immoral. Frankly I'd rather have a smart, compassionate atheist in office, than a religious wacko like say, Falwell.

 

America was born out of religous persecution. Our fore fathers came here so that we could worship God any way we pleased.

America was born out of the desire for economic soveirgnty. Our forefathers were inspired by the European Enlightenment, many of them Anglican, they weren't persecuted like those in the 1600's and early 1700's. You're thinking of the Pilgrims, who aren't the fathers of our democracy ideologically.

[End of my rope]

Originally posted by dyermaker

End of my rope, nonreligious people have morals as well. The belief in a religion is NOT neccessary for one to be moral, and in some cases, it's the religious people who are immoral. Frankly I'd rather have a smart, compassionate atheist in office, than a religious wacko like say, Falwell.

 

Point taken, and for the record I wasn't implying that non religious people can't be or aren't moral...just that for me, I would rather have a "believer" in office. (but not a religious wacko)

 

 

America was born out of the desire for economic soveirgnty. Our forefathers were inspired by the European Enlightenment, many of them Anglican, they weren't persecuted like those in the 1600's and early 1700's. You're thinking of the Pilgrims, who aren't the fathers of our democracy ideologically.

 

I was refering to the Pilgrims...not the fellows who actually formed our country.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by End of my rope

(but not a religious wacko)

Anyone who would pretend their lust for oil is religiously justified is most definitely, in my book, a wacko.

[Curt]

He is as Real as The Sun, Moon, Sky, and Land...

 

He is the Alpha and the Omega...

 

The Bright Morning Star...

 

The Friend That Sticketh Closer Than a Brother...

 

The Great Physician...

 

The Great I am...

 

The Saviour.

 

Long May He Reign!

[amerikajin]

>>>No, what I meant about fault is that you'll find questions such as "How can a God send people who believe in other religions to Hell?" and use that as evidence against religion in general--instead of searching for answers, a good place to start would be baptism by fire and circumstance, and catechismal references that state a belief in Christ isn't valued any more above a good heart and conscience--and that we truly don't know who's going to hell and who is not.<<<

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with religion, Dyer - in fact I would defend any person's right to religious worship. But when people say "The Bible says..." and insert it into an argument as if it's the final word on everything, I'm sorry, I just tune out. It's a good book, but it was a book written by men - mortal men like you and me. I don't have a problem with spirituality, which at its best, is the pursuit of the meaning of our existence and the existence of everything around us, but far too often, religion is used as a tool to control others. I've made enough observations in my life about people who are supposedly "religious" to know that religion is something that's best kept to one's self and shared among others who seek to share such ideas with others.

 

>>>And, please, enough of the examples of Christians who suck. There are plenty of atheists who are quite lame, should they speak for all atheists? or in your case, I think, Deists?<<<

 

Of course, bad people come in many delicious flavors...but I'm guessing that you had to compare the two, the Christian Coalition is infinitely more powerful and influential in our nation's political machinery than the Atheist's Coalition or the Deist's Coalition. Sure, there's that annoying bunch of legal hounds known as the ACLU, but they also defend the KKK, so they're hardly committed to defending the interests of non-Christians exclusively.

[sonofhud]

I think this has been one of my hardest struggles over the last few years in understanding what I believe and my faith in God -judging other people. I know exactly what you are talking about amerikajin.

 

Lots of people like to walk around and talk about how moral they are and how moral others aren't, and they try to force the rest of us to live according to their standards of worship - standards which they often fail to live up to themselves.

 

This is very true. At my own church I have had to overcome this problem. Yet I find myself judging them because they are judging others....it goes round and round. Its just our human, sinful nature I suppose. Of course one of my best friends, who is a former Christian and now calls himself deist, loves to point that fact out. Its really easy to find fault in something you don't believe or haven't tried to experience. Its much easier to believe God has no influence over our everyday lives, IMO.

 

But as a Christian, it is my job to reach out to him and try to show him the love of Jesus. This is where Christians leave a bad taste in many non-believers mouths. We tend to point out people's faults and tell them if you don't do this, you are going to hell. That is not how Jesus taught. No matter how hard I try I can't make someone I love, love God or Jesus. I can only change myself and my own actions and hope they see something in me to influence them to take a closer look in what I believe.

[XDOR]

Some people think Jesus didn't exist.

Some people think the earth is flat.

 

I think both are crazy.

[InmannRoshi]

Some people think the earth is flat.

 

And others believe that a man took two every species of animal and plant on earth and put them all on a big wooden boat.

[moimeme]

And others believe that a man took two every species of animal and plant on earth and put them all on a big wooden boat.

 

And then there are those who understand that in the age of Biblical writing, many lessons were taught by allegory.

[sonofhud]

Originally posted by InmannRoshi

And others believe that a man took two every species of animal and plant on earth and put them all on a big wooden boat.

 

I don't agree with that statement. God said bring two of every kind, not species. For example, a dog is a kind of animal not a species. Noah would not have brought 2 dalmations, 2 beagles, 2 cocker spaniels....ect. (just using dogs to make my point)

[InmannRoshi]

Originally posted by moimeme

And others believe that a man took two every species of animal and plant on earth and put them all on a big wooden boat.

 

And then there are those who understand that in the age of Biblical writing, many lessons were taught by allegory.

 

Since elected leaders are making public policy on a wide variety of issues from stem cell research, doctor assisted suicide and homosexual marriage based on this document's contents, perhaps Christian denominations should join together with a highlighter pen and mark out the allegory from the factual for future point of reference, less we run the risk of further confusing allegory as fact.

[morrigan]

Jesus was a historical figure, whether or not one believes he was a messiah. I personally believe in the divinity of Christ, my boyfriend does not, but we both think that both Buddha and Christ were exemplary people.

 

My boyfriend, as an atheist, is a far better Christian than I. Reading Anton Lavey when I was younger made me realize there are a lot more satanic behaviors (selfish, egotism, greed) in humanity. The Christian philosophy is to treat others as you would wish them to treat you. The Satanic philosophy is to treat others as they have treated you. But I have met responsible Christians, atheists and Satanists.

 

I don't equate divinity with perfection, I see Jesus as someone who learned throughout his whole life and chose to make decisions for the welfare of others. Does being a Christian the way Jesus wanted people to be make you adored by everyone? Probably not--I know a woman who is a great Methodist minister, who works hard and tries in any way to assist the local poor and the elderly. It's hard for her to find time to be with her family, some people feel she does too much community work and not enough church work, some people feel the other way, some just don't like women being ministers. It's a life of dedicating yourself to others, often times relinquishing or not having time for close relationships with family or friends.

[End of my rope]

My boyfriend, as an atheist, is a far better Christian than I.

 

How is this? The definition of a Christian is to be Christ like. If someone doesn't believe in Christ, and in turn try to be Christ like, how then can they be an atheist Christian?

[moimeme]

Since elected leaders are making public policy on a wide variety of issues from stem cell research, doctor assisted suicide and homosexual marriage based on this document's contents, perhaps Christian denominations should join together with a highlighter pen and mark out the allegory from the factual for future point of reference, less we run the risk of further confusing allegory as fact.

 

How's about maybe electing leaders who don't do that??????????????????????? How's about working to ensure that people with those sorts of biased policies don't attain positions of high authority or at least that when in high authority they don't then abuse those positions to put forth non-political agendas????

[morrigan]

End of my rope, that's your definition of being a christian, and you have every right to have that belief.

 

I just don't feel the same way. A lot of people feel Christ's divinity made him perfect. I don't agree with that idea. I don't have a problem with someone who admires Christ but does not feel they were of a higher supernatural power.

 

I meant that his character is much like what a christian should be--loving, open, tolerant, assisting, not afraid to defend people who have been injured, willing to give, financially and materially, as much as they can to someone else who doesn't have. He believes that Jesus was a teacher and an example of what we can do for others, but he does not believe in his divine nature.