This could be why you can't just leave him

[redcurls]

I get nothing but pain. Let me repeat. I get nothing but PAIN. And I keep pursuing him. His treatment of me became increasingly worse with time. The more I allowed it, the worse it got. I just got less and less and in response became more and more persistent that if I will love him more, prove to him how valuable I am to him, both personally and professionally he will "see the light" and love me back in return. Instead, he just became more and more neglectful, cruel, dismissing. I have allowed this toxicity to escalate and reach these levels.

 

I need help.

[Fieldsofgold]

Wow, FOG--thank you so very much for taking the time to think this through and post. I too have wondered about this. I, and so many others, have posted something along the lines of, "I used to be such a strong, independent woman, now I have no sense of control, I've become dysfunctional in this relationship, I can't believe I accept such crumbs etc." At first I too thought it was, "true love" but a month or two ago, I realized that this could not possibly be the case. True love doesn't involve sneaking, lying, feeling marginalized etc. BUT I could not figure out what "IT" was? I thought it was some type of addiction, but that didn't quite fit either. Perhaps you have really named it. In my case, my 20 yr. marriage was falling apart, my H was emotionally hurtful towards me and had been for the past 10 years as he struggled with depression. So while it wasn't really his "fault," living with it definitely took it's toll on me, so I chose to alleviate my pain through an A. In the beginning I thought the A was literally saving me from feeling so awful about myself (the trauma of the past 10 years) but then, I really do think the accumulating trauma of the A took me further into an unhealthy place and from there it spiraled.

I am definitely going to look into this further so thank you!

 

It sounds like you went from a train wreck to a train wreck. I hope that you find what you need to help you out of it.

 

I'm reading with a more personal interest as well. I had several abusive situations early in my life. Earlier this year I dated a man who lied to me about being married. Thankfully, when I found out, I had enough self-respect and morals in place to dump him immediately. But it took me a while to quit brooding over it, trying to figure it, wanting to lash out at him.

 

As I was reading these studies in a work-related setting, I began to realize why I had had so much trouble releasing all the garbage related to him. He was an abuser. He abused me by lying about his marital status for months. He publicly and privately humiliated me by openly and publicly dating me as though he were single. I didn't know he was married, but others may have! He could have damaged my reputation. I would never have knowingly dated a married man. He knew that. He betrayed my trust by lying to me about his marital status. All of that was a form of betrayal and abuse. Since I had been physically and emotionally abused in very serious ways in the past, my anger toward him, my ability to let it go, was tied to that past abuse. The need to understand why he did what he did was tied up in the past abuse.

 

I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else, but it is quite clear to me. The key to it all was realizing that to lie to me about his marital status was more than just low-down, skumbag, immoral, unethical, dishonest behavior. It was actually a form of abuse he perpetrated on me.

 

My intellect didn't realize it, but my gut sure did. That's why it was so hard for me to just forget him and move on. The f***er was not just a low-down scumbag liar. He abused me! I was once again an abuse victim! That's something I don't tolerate well at all.

 

Now that I can make some sense of my feelings about it all, now maybe I can let go of it and put it to rest.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[Summer Breeze]

So the idea is that this trauma causes a connection and a determination and desire to hold on. This is being talked about as the situation for the OW but what about the reconciling BS? I know hysterical bonding is a part of the process of healing but is it possible this connection and need to reconcile comes from the same theory?

 

Someone I met on a forum who was a BS told me that A fog was nothing compared to the fog she went under when she found out the truth and did everything possible to keep her M going.

 

I think I love these forums because I'm amazed at the sharp similarities and differences with the OP and BS at different points in the A.

[Fieldsofgold]

So the idea is that this trauma causes a connection and a determination and desire to hold on. This is being talked about as the situation for the OW but what about the reconciling BS? I know hysterical bonding is a part of the process of healing but is it possible this connection and need to reconcile comes from the same theory?

 

Someone I met on a forum who was a BS told me that A fog was nothing compared to the fog she went under when she found out the truth and did everything possible to keep her M going.

 

I think I love these forums because I'm amazed at the sharp similarities and differences with the OP and BS at different points in the A.

 

Yes, I think exactly the same thing can go on with BS. Actually, it could apply to ANY relationship where two or more people interact. As one poster pointed out, it happened to her in a religious setting.

 

BUT, for the purposes of this thread, I had requested somewhere back there that we limit this particular discussion to affairs and AP's only, so as not to get derailed. (I'd be delighted if someone wants to do a similar thread for BS's.)

[Fieldsofgold]

Very interesting concept. I've heard this term used in abusive relationships but never thought of it in terms of other types of unhealthy relationships. It makes sense, though.

 

Look at me, for example. I didn't grow up in an abusive home at all but when I was about 8 yrs old, my parents joined a cultish religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) and this religion, I believe, had a strong, negative influence on my life. I left the religion in my mid-20's but it made its mark on me. It was very confining and controlling and these have been ongoing themes in my life and relationships. My last marriage was with a very controlling, verbally abusive guy and this is where I learned about traumatic bonding through reading about these relationships. Shortly after I left him and we divorced, I met xMM -- who happens to be the owner of the company I work for. There's the exploitive issue, and abuse of trust and power. Dead on.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sorry it was your experience. But it is a very good example of how this can work.

[Fieldsofgold]

I get nothing but pain. Let me repeat. I get nothing but PAIN. And I keep pursuing him. His treatment of me became increasingly worse with time. The more I allowed it, the worse it got. I just got less and less and in response became more and more persistent that if I will love him more, prove to him how valuable I am to him, both personally and professionally he will "see the light" and love me back in return. Instead, he just became more and more neglectful, cruel, dismissing. I have allowed this toxicity to escalate and reach these levels.

 

I need help.

 

RC, as I read your post, I almost felt like I was having a flashback to my marriage. I was exactly the same way as you, did exactly the same things as you. Tried to be more and more perfect, so he would at least be able to tolerate me. I even went to counselling to improve myself, so he could love me! The harder I tried, the worse he treated. I know first-hand just how crazy-making it is.

 

I read all sorts of self-help books along with the counselling. Finally, from somewhere, I got the idea that my pursuing him was the problem, so I devised an experiment. I tried being cool, aloof, and indifferent. Almost instantly he was more interested in me. I tried it several different times, and it worked every time. Quickly, too. But I knew I didn't want a relationship with a man where I had to act contrary to my feelings to gain his interest. And the minute I reverted to acting loving toward him, his interest would die.

 

He eventually left me for his OW. Poor her - I was devastated, but long-term it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

 

I experienced the same thing to a lesser degree in a dating relationship a few years later.

 

Here's what I learned. You can never be "perfect enough" to make someone love you. Every time you attain a level of perfection, they will raise the bar.

 

People don't love you because of how good/loving/caring you are. In a healthy relationship with an emotionally healthy person, you don't have to earn love. People (healthy people) love you because YOU are worthy of love - even when you are grumpy, mean, and screw up.

 

The problem is not you. The problem is that this man, and my xH, and the x BF I mentioned, are screwed up people. They are not capable of loving others. They don't respect others. They are flawed, flawed, flawed. No matter what YOU do, THEY will still be screwed-up, abusive, unloving people.

 

You need to separate yourself from him. Staying around him will keep your perspective of you screwed up. Get counselling, and work on your self-esteem. Work on trauma, abuse, and maybe PTSD. You probably have some variant of that. Look for a good counsellor. The first couple I talked to scoffed at the idea that I had trauma issues. They couldn't help me. Look for someone YOU are comfortable with.

 

Get some books on the subject. I mentioned one in my opening thread that seems to be referenced a lot. Google some of the characteristics of trauma I listed in my first few posts. Do some on-line, or library, or bookstore research.

 

I chose to avoid romantic relationships while I healed, because I figured I was the common denominator in each bad relationship, my "manpicker" was broken, and I would keep picking bad ones until I healed.

 

My heart aches for you, because I remember what that pain is like. Get counselling, read, research, keep reading and posting here. For me, now, that time in my life almost seems like a different lifetime! (or maybe that's just traumatic splitting!)

[KarmasTestDummy]

So if I'm putting two and two together correctly him breaking NC is the emotional equivalent for an OW in an affair in which he has just broke your heart to a woman in a domestic violence relationship that is hugged and apologized to and promised to never do it again after a violent episode. A man's means of keeping you convinced he loves you and can't be without you despite an unwillingness or inability to change. Kinda makes sense, especially to any of us OW who have listened to the eminem/rhiana song Love the way you lie and related to it. I've experienced both and I can see the correlation but I think that it may just be human nature to try to make amends for bad behavior (the genuiness is key) but it's in the woman's character or self esteem whether she will accept it or refuses to be fooled more than once.

[Fieldsofgold]

So if I'm putting two and two together correctly him breaking NC is the emotional equivalent for an OW in an affair in which he has just broke your heart to a woman in a domestic violence relationship that is hugged and apologized to and promised to never do it again after a violent episode. A man's means of keeping you convinced he loves you and can't be without you despite an unwillingness or inability to change. Kinda makes sense, especially to any of us OW who have listened to the eminem/rhiana song Love the way you lie and related to it. I've experienced both and I can see the correlation but I think that it may just be human nature to try to make amends for bad behavior (the genuiness is key) but it's in the woman's character or self esteem whether she will accept it or refuses to be fooled more than once.

 

Yeah, you got it.

 

About the genuineness being key - I think at the moment an abuser is making amends, he/she is as genuine as can be. I think the real key is whether the "abusive episode" happens a second time.

 

I will have to say, at my age and experience level, it'd be a rare instance to give someone who abused me more than one shot. The likelihood it will happen again is soooo very high.

 

Take care.

 

(((((hugs))))

[pureinheart]

Glad you get it, Pure.

 

I don't see traumatic bonding as an excuse to justify having an affair. I think if people can be educated as to the traumatic/neglect/abuse aspects of an affair - not just for the BS but for the AP as well, it could motivate people to avoid them in the first place.

 

Also, if a person has been in an abusive/traumatic/negligent relationship in the past, they can be on alert to avoid another potential type of trauma - an affair.

 

If a person is already in an affair, and hurting, but having a hard time walking away, it could give them something solid to work toward, namely recognizing the difference between nurturing love and traumatic bonding, and they could possibly get more beneficial, appropriately directed help and therapy in getting out and getting over it. That would beat the white-knuckle NC that people struggle with so much here.

 

I see recognizing traumatic bonding as anything but an excuse to have an affair. I see it as a tool to help avoid or get out of a hurtful situation.

 

I think a lot of AP do confuse traumatic bonding with love. Recognizing it for what it is, could potentially save a lot of AP a lot of years, a lot of pain, and a lot of damage to their esteem.

 

Thanks FOG,

 

Well, think about it...how many times do we hear in the forums that, "it just happened". I don't believe that the poster is trying to excuse anything, they genuinely feel like they were caught off guard. Very rarely did the individual set out to have an A.

 

I strongly believe that exDM used this tactic on me without him really understanding what he was doing. It was simply a tactic that had been used on him and he had used it prior on others, and it worked.

 

As we hear the stories described it's evident of severe trauma...some call it drama, although I think it is a reaction to a lot of hurt and a very traumatised person.

 

What I found interesting is traumatic bonding can work hand in hand with commitment phobics...a book I read, "Men who can't love" (that might not be the exact name)...very informative book that gave me many answers.

 

FOG, I used to take his behavior towards me very personal, and I would like to communicate to those who may be dealing with extreme behavior that you didnot make this person this way, therefore you cannot fix this. They need professional help and it can take years to unravel the hurt. Some of this hurt originated when they were kids...well kids devise their own mechanisms to deal with radical hurt.

 

When I was around 8 or 9 I was sexually molested. I did not know how to cope. I did not tell anyone because I did not understand these adult activities. I became self destructive which lead to a serious of behaviors so that I could cope. Some of these coping mechanisms I carry to this day.

 

ExDM had a much harder childhood than I, he was beaten mercilessly among many other atrocities.

 

I realise we are all responsible for our actions, although I do understand his behavior and hope the help he is getting is not just another manipulation tactic. I hope he heals...I have nothing against him...I am not equipped to handle the deep issues he has.

Edited December 9, 2010 by pureinheart

[pureinheart]

FTR, all relationships are subject to taraumatic bonding...not just A's

[pureinheart]

This is it. This is why I can't let go of him. He is a lier, I know it, and he knows that I know it - still, he continues to lie. Blatently, to my face, without flinching. He ignores me for days, constantly telling me that our relationship is the worse thing that ever happened to him... Constantly asking me to let him go (only to come up with excuses to keep communicating with me)... Constantly telling me how much stronger his bond is with his wife... How he wants to "do what's morally right" and end our relationship...

 

He does all that - and worse. And I keep coming back for more. I put up with all of this, and I keep chasing him. I'm so ashamed. Now I know why. Now I know why a highly educated, successful, very intelligent, attractive woman will let an unworthy man do this to her. Now this crazy sickness has a name.

 

 

Thank you.

 

RC, something tells me this man would play even worse games with you if you choose to really walk away.

 

When you walk, cut all the ties you can because the minute he knows your really gone he will change his tactics...it's the flipside of the behavior you've been experiencing....please do not fall for it.

[Fieldsofgold]

Thanks FOG,

 

Well, think about it...how many times do we hear in the forums that, "it just happened". I don't believe that the poster is trying to excuse anything, they genuinely feel like they were caught off guard. Very rarely did the individual set out to have an A.

. . .

 

As we hear the stories described it's evident of severe trauma...some call it drama, although I think it is a reaction to a lot of hurt and a very traumatised person.

 

What I found interesting is traumatic bonding can work hand in hand with commitment phobics...a book I read, "Men who can't love" (that might not be the exact name)...very informative book that gave me many answers.

 

I would like to communicate to those who may be dealing with extreme behavior that you did not make this person this way, therefore you cannot fix this. They need professional help and it can take years to unravel the hurt.

 

...I am not equipped to handle the deep issues he has.

 

Very good points.

[pureinheart]

I get nothing but pain. Let me repeat. I get nothing but PAIN. And I keep pursuing him. His treatment of me became increasingly worse with time. The more I allowed it, the worse it got. I just got less and less and in response became more and more persistent that if I will love him more, prove to him how valuable I am to him, both personally and professionally he will "see the light" and love me back in return. Instead, he just became more and more neglectful, cruel, dismissing. I have allowed this toxicity to escalate and reach these levels.

 

I need help.

 

RC, When MM went into the separated mode with his wife, as they were going through divorce what you described above is what I went through.

 

He was cruel and abusive (Please keep in mind this was in 2008 and I am away from him and have forgiven him). He was taking a lot of drugs at the time also. I strongly believe that he did things purposefully on his motorcycle to physically hurt me...I let it happen too...I can't tell you of all of the cruelty...when I would get hurt on the dumb as* bike he would blame me...my daughter and SIL had to come and pick me up more than once due to his abuse...(all I can say is he is VERY lucky, he pissed my family and friends off bad...they hate him to this day).

 

RC, I almost literally pulled all my hair out ( it took all this time to grow back).

 

None of his abuse made sense, but this is the strange part of traumatic bonding...the key is to give the OP just enough affection to keep them wanting, dangle carrots in front of them....then when the time is right, treat them like sh*t so that they will pine for the better treatment (which is actually horrible treatment)...please read into depth this theory RC...as this rabbit hole is deep and can be complicated.

 

You know what terrified me after exDM....being treated right...me and my old friends got together for their 70 year old mothers grad from college...I hadn't seen one of the brothers in years...he treated me like a total lady and I know he is the real deal and it totally scares the hell out of me....now is that f-ed up or what....yes my dear, get help.

 

BTW, shortly, when I get the nerve I will contact this right on guy:)

[pureinheart]

Hi FOG,

 

The sad thing is the posts RC wrote...thank God for the safety of this thread:)

 

People look down on the experiences that RC, myself and others have lived to tell about...it can lead to self hatred because we "allowed it to happen"...

 

The guilt is incredible no matter what type the R is...people around you look at you like you like it...shoot just read some of the threads.

 

RC, I am not sure where you are at spiritually, but will go out on a limb here and suggest you go to God with this one...this is a biggy gf and you are way heavy on my heart...you have got all of my prayers and will get off this board and start...((((((((((hugs to all)))))))))))

[Ellin]

Yeah, you got it.

 

About the genuineness being key - I think at the moment an abuser is making amends, he/she is as genuine as can be. I think the real key is whether the "abusive episode" happens a second time.

 

I will have to say, at my age and experience level, it'd be a rare instance to give someone who abused me more than one shot. The likelihood it will happen again is soooo very high.

 

Take care.

 

(((((hugs))))

 

I disagree.

 

Abuser is not just a poor lost soul, who has no control over their behavior and afterwards they are genuinely remorseful. I did believe it for most of the time I was in a very abusive M and this was what kept me there and in a state of confusion.

 

But then I read it up and learned that on more or less conscious level (and usually more rather than less) abusers know exactly what they're doing and they're doing it for a purpose. The nice episodes, the remorse after violence etc are played out in order to keep the victim stuck in the R because if it was just all bad it wouldn't last that long.

 

Once I realised that, everything fell into place and the whole dynamics became so plain before my eyes, all the confusion disappeared and I found it easier to get out.

[pureinheart]

According to Google search, Taumatic Bonding was first given credibility when some bank robbers in Sweden had I think 5 hostages for 131 hours and the hostages became attached to their captors...it has since been called "Stockholm Syndrome". We find this also in history with Patti Hearst.

 

Ellin, I know what you are saying is the truth...it just blows my mind that anyone would set out to be this cruel. I knew exDM was extremely calculated, although pretended to "not know what he was doing", I mean so calculated that he would time everything down to the second. I was amazed because maybe I am a space case, although it just takes too much thought IMO to be as calculated as he was...wow...

[ladydesigner]

Wow this is one of the most thought provoking threads I have read in quite some time here and it REALLY hits home with me. Not only have I experienced trauma as a child, but as a young adult in an abusive relationship, then on to a M tarnished by infidelity on both sides ( him and me). So I think I probably need a lot more IC than I first thought (and I have had years of therapy and it obviously has not been enough). One thing that still bothers me is I can't let go of feeling rejected by my XAP. I am at a point where I have been in NC long enough to be over this, and for the most part I am. I do not miss my XAP, I do not think of him fondly, I do not want him back, but I constantly think of how I was rejected and I am assuming it has something to do with the trauma of the A and aftermath. Probably other past traumas have fueled all this as well. Anyways I want to thank you for this thread! Thank you!

[BB07]

Great and thought provoking thread fields.....It is giving me lots to think about.

[redcurls]

I, too, can't stop thinking about the topic of this thread and how relieved I am, on some level, that I can now put a "title" on this horrid dysfunction that is my affair.

 

I'm going back in my mind over every traumatic experience I have ever had and trying to understand how it contributed to my current situation. I'm bewildered, to say the least.

[wheelwright]

Yeah, you got it.

 

About the genuineness being key - I think at the moment an abuser is making amends, he/she is as genuine as can be. I think the real key is whether the "abusive episode" happens a second time.

 

I will have to say, at my age and experience level, it'd be a rare instance to give someone who abused me more than one shot. The likelihood it will happen again is soooo very high.

 

Take care.

 

(((((hugs))))

 

Hi FoG

 

I will say I also found this thought provoking, and it is certainly one of the ways in which I have thought about my M and my A R.

 

I recently found an Einstein quote (gosh he was clever! need admiring icon)

 

'the definition of insanity: doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results'.

 

I found this quote helpful in the same way your thread is.

 

Also, E. offers a solution:

 

'You can't solve a problem with the same thinking you went into it with'

 

I think these quotes may work for all sides in any A set up.

 

I like reading and hearing about the pscho stuff, but these quotes are raw and real. There is no escaping them with ah, but...

[Fieldsofgold]

I, too, can't stop thinking about the topic of this thread and how relieved I am, on some level, that I can now put a "title" on this horrid dysfunction that is my affair.

 

I'm going back in my mind over every traumatic experience I have ever had and trying to understand how it contributed to my current situation. I'm bewildered, to say the least.

 

"The Betrayal Bond" by Patrick Carnes. I haven't read the book, I haven't even seen a copy, but it is a book I'm seeing referenced a lot about the subject.

 

Maybe you could order a copy off Amazon.

 

I think when something strikes such a chord with a person, as this thread has done with some of us, there is something there for us to learn. Something we need to learn.

[redcurls]

Thanks, FOG. I think its in stock at my local B&N. I will get it tomorrow.

[Fieldsofgold]

I never felt I had closure. There were all the unanswered questions, things I couldn't understand about it. I accepted that there would not be closure, there would not be answers, and I moved on. But there was always that big confused question mark hanging in the back of my mind. How did I get sucked in/fooled by the guy, why would he want to do what he did? Why can't I let go of the desire to make him take responsibility for what he did? Why do I still have the urge to want him to hurt? (I know - not very nice, but the truth.) Everyone has their own set of questions, but I think most everyone here knows what I'm talking about with the no closure/unanswered questions.

 

To realize that he is just another garden-variety emotional abuser helps me both understand "how he could do what he did" and "how I got sucked into it."

 

He's just a sick abusive man, and that's what abusers do. I have past conditioning that makes it easier for me to respond to certain patterns of behavior in other people, in certain ways. It is easier for me to respond to old familiar patterns, and harder for me to let go of the urge to do serious harm to the person when I realize what they are doing. (LOL - sort of)

 

Recognizing him as nothing special - just another user/abuser - pretty much explains it all to me, supplies the answers to all those unanswered questions, gives me closure, and a degree of peace about it all. Now I can truly put it to rest.

 

Feels good. Well, maybe not good, bit a measure of peace about it all.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[jthorne]

Recognizing him as nothing special - just another user/abuser - pretty much explains it all to me, supplies the answers to all those unanswered questions, gives me closure, and a degree of peace about it all. Now I can truly put it to rest.

I am glad you have found your closure. I know it has really been important to you.

 

On a slightly different note, I've been thinking about your thread, and about some OW who have said that the A is the best relationship they have ever been in. I commented on it in another thread, so obviously it's been on my mind this morning.

 

Considering what you've written about traumatic bonding, do you think this might be a reason why an OW would find the A the best relationship they have ever experienced, and in fact, feel that it is healing?

[Fieldsofgold]

I am glad you have found your closure. I know it has really been important to you.

 

On a slightly different note, I've been thinking about your thread, and about some OW who have said that the A is the best relationship they have ever been in. I commented on it in another thread, so obviously it's been on my mind this morning.

 

Considering what you've written about traumatic bonding, do you think this might be a reason why an OW would find the A the best relationship they have ever experienced, and in fact, feel that it is healing?

 

Thank you, JThorne. It was very confusing to me, because I am typically able to let things go, and move on. Things bigger and much more important to me than he ever was. While I did move on anyway, I couldn't understand why it remained such an issue to me. *

 

I think a lot of people have a hard time walking away from an affair when they are bothered by similar lingering issues. It keeps them emotionally hooked, in an unhealthy way, and apparently for some, it is a very strong hook. * *

 

I read about people here who are in these relationships that have so many unhealthy features, (which they tend to minimize, or to which they are oblivious,) and they talk about the incredible bond they have with the person - I think that incredible bond is simply abuse bonding/trauma bonding.*

 

I think the draw to stay in the relationship even once they realize it is hurtful and unhealthy, is trauma bonding, and that need to "fix" the broken relationship, this time, is trauma repetition. You keep getting in abusive relationships, trying to fix it this time.

 

I also came to see that anyone in an A, (with the possible exception of OWoman) is in an abusive relationship of some degree. I've mentioned why affairs are abusive in a previous post on this thread. Based on my previous postings, I believe that if a person is in an affair, they are in fact in an emotionally abusive relationship. The back and forth of abandonment, neglect, and then the "reward" of affection and attention - no matter how subtle it may be, has all

the dynamics of an abusive R.

 

I believe people who have experienced trauma (including accumulative trauma), are more susceptible to getting into affairs, and that trauma bonding keeps them there, and keeps them thinking that the incredible connection*is love. * * *