This could be why you can't just leave him

[Fieldsofgold]

I am glad you have found your closure. I know it has really been important to you.

 

On a slightly different note, I've been thinking about your thread, and about some OW who have said that the A is the best relationship they have ever been in. I commented on it in another thread, so obviously it's been on my mind this morning.

 

Considering what you've written about traumatic bonding, do you think this might be a reason why an OW would find the A the best relationship they have ever experienced, and in fact, feel that it is healing?

 

Thank you, JThorne. It was very confusing to me, because I am typically able to let things go, and move on. Things bigger and much more important to me than he ever was. While I did move on anyway, I couldn't understand why it remained such an issue to me.

 

I think a lot of people have a hard time walking away from an affair when they are bothered by similar lingering issues. It keeps them emotionally hooked, in an unhealthy way, and apparently for some, it is a very strong hook. * *

 

I read about people here who are in these relationships that have so many unhealthy features, (which they tend to minimize, or to which they are oblivious,) and they talk about the incredible bond they have with the person - I think that incredible bond is simply abuse bonding/trauma bonding.*

 

I think the draw to stay in the relationship even once they realize it is hurtful and unhealthy, is trauma bonding, and that need to "fix" the broken relationship, this time, is trauma repetition. You keep getting in abusive relationships, trying to fix it this time.

 

I also came to see that anyone in an A, (with the possible exception of OWoman) is in an abusive relationship of some degree. I've mentioned why affairs are abusive in a previous post on this thread. Based on my previous postings, I believe that if a person is in an affair, they are in fact in an emotionally abusive relationship. The back and forth of abandonment, neglect, and then the "reward" of affection and attention - no matter how subtle it may be, has all the dynamics of an abusive R.

 

I believe people who have experienced trauma (including accumulative trauma), are more susceptible to getting into affairs, and that trauma bonding keeps them there, and keeps them thinking that the incredible connection is love.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[BB07]

I hope this isn't OT, but there is a theory that we try to play out our childhood issues (if we are unfortunate to have them) into adulthood and that we try to fix them in our screwed up way. I wonder if this has a tie in to what you are describing fields as I was physically abused by my father and also molested when I was a teen. In later years I was in two emotionally abusive relationships discounting the affair. Yuck........so much baggage!

 

I know the above has had some bearing on my choices throughout my life and frankly it pisses me off that something in my subconscious causes me to lean this way or that way or choose dysfunction over function.

[MorningCoffee]

I hope this isn't OT, but there is a theory that we try to play out our childhood issues (if we are unfortunate to have them) into adulthood and that we try to fix them in our screwed up way. I wonder if this has a tie in to what you are describing fields as I was physically abused by my father and also molested when I was a teen. In later years I was in two emotionally abusive relationships discounting the affair. Yuck........so much baggage!

 

I know the above has had some bearing on my choices throughout my life and frankly it pisses me off that something in my subconscious causes me to lean this way or that way or choose dysfunction over function.

 

Not O/T, as it relates to why it can be so hard to leave an affair.

 

OK - really revealing myself here --

 

Re the bolded, yes, I have been learning in IC the extent to which my early years, in a family emotional system that quashed the expression of any strong emotions that might roil the supposed calm, together with emotionally distant parents, prepared me for a life-long pattern of attaching emotionally to unavailable women.

 

Even through my long, and mostly harmonious and happy marriage, there were repeated instances of crushes (not affairs) on such people. (I remember how painful a couple of those crushes were, and how bewildered my loving wife was when I was suffering from them. Bless her.)

 

After I was single again (widowed after 30+ year M), I had a couple relationships with available people, and these followed a normal pattern. But the affair was the most emotionally connected and intense one.

 

Since my AP was "unavailable" in one sense but engaged in the love affair with me, this fed my emotional need to "win" the love of an unavailable person. And for the duration of the affair, I was winning her! The resulting bond was incredible for me. And the loss of that source of love was very, very hard to get over.

 

Now I am learning how and why this all made sense psychologically for me, how to live more consciously, and what I want in a healthy relationship.

 

So not only do we sometimes pursue patterns in adult life to meet leftover emotional needs, but if we are lucky, we can use these experiences to work on those issues. Hopefully we become more evolved individuals, capable of less distorted and more complete relationships.

[Fieldsofgold]

Not O/T, as it relates to why it can be so hard to leave an affair.

 

OK - really revealing myself here --

 

Re the bolded, yes, I have been learning in IC the extent to which my early years, in a family emotional system that quashed the expression of any strong emotions that might roil the supposed calm, together with emotionally distant parents, prepared me for a life-long pattern of attaching emotionally to unavailable women.

 

Even through my long, and mostly harmonious and happy marriage, there were repeated instances of crushes (not affairs) on such people. (I remember how painful a couple of those crushes were, and how bewildered my loving wife was when I was suffering from them. Bless her.)

 

After I was single again (widowed after 30+ year M), I had a couple relationships with available people, and these followed a normal pattern. But the affair was the most emotionally connected and intense one.

 

Since my AP was "unavailable" in one sense but engaged in the love affair with me, this fed my emotional need to "win" the love of an unavailable person. And for the duration of the affair, I was winning her! The resulting bond was incredible for me. And the loss of that source of love was very, very hard to get over.

 

Now I am learning how and why this all made sense psychologically for me, how to live more consciously, and what I want in a healthy relationship.

 

So not only do we sometimes pursue patterns in adult life to meet leftover emotional needs, but if we are lucky, we can use these experiences to work on those issues. Hopefully we become more evolved individuals, capable of less distorted and more complete relationships.

 

Wow, MC, thank you for sharing that.

 

Reading about your experience makes it make more sense, IRL terms.

 

BB, you are right on topic. I listed several different effects of trauma in one of my early posts:

 

trauma reaction, trauma arousal, trauma blocking, trauma splitting, trauma abstinence, trauma shame, trauma repetition, trauma bonding.

 

I can see the effects of several of them in my life. Especially the repetition.

[freestyle]

Not O/T, as it relates to why it can be so hard to leave an affair.

 

OK - really revealing myself here --

 

Re the bolded, yes, I have been learning in IC the extent to which my early years, in a family emotional system that quashed the expression of any strong emotions that might roil the supposed calm, together with emotionally distant parents, prepared me for a life-long pattern of attaching emotionally to unavailable women.

 

Even through my long, and mostly harmonious and happy marriage, there were repeated instances of crushes (not affairs) on such people. (I remember how painful a couple of those crushes were, and how bewildered my loving wife was when I was suffering from them. Bless her.)

 

After I was single again (widowed after 30+ year M), I had a couple relationships with available people, and these followed a normal pattern. But the affair was the most emotionally connected and intense one.

 

Since my AP was "unavailable" in one sense but engaged in the love affair with me, this fed my emotional need to "win" the love of an unavailable person. And for the duration of the affair, I was winning her! The resulting bond was incredible for me. And the loss of that source of love was very, very hard to get over.

 

Now I am learning how and why this all made sense psychologically for me, how to live more consciously, and what I want in a healthy relationship.

 

So not only do we sometimes pursue patterns in adult life to meet leftover emotional needs, but if we are lucky, we can use these experiences to work on those issues. Hopefully we become more evolved individuals, capable of less distorted and more complete relationships.

 

 

 

Excellent, insightful post---I believe that what I bolded boils it down to the salt in the pan.....

 

Very few people are brave enough to look that deeply into their own inner workings..........

[Fieldsofgold]

"to win the love of an unavailable person" . . .

 

I agree with you Freestyle . . . But why? Why do we have that need? Do we need that to feel worthwhile? Successful? Validated?

[Fieldsofgold]

"to win the love of an unavailable person" . . .

 

I agree with you Freestyle . . . But why? Why do we have that need? Do we need that to feel worthwhile? Successful? Validated?

 

. . . or are we still just trying to fix the damaging early relationships?

[redcurls]

Since my AP was "unavailable" in one sense but engaged in the love affair with me, this fed my emotional need to "win" the love of an unavailable person. And for the duration of the affair, I was winning her! The resulting bond was incredible for me. And the loss of that source of love was very, very hard to get over.

 

Okay. Taking a deeeep breath here. This is it.

 

My parents divorced when I was a baby. My dad came in and out of my life very infrequently, sometimes vanishing for YEARS. That's UNVAILABILITY. This is what I am trying to do, isn't it? To prove that I can win the love of an unavailable man. To prove that I am important to him.

[MorningCoffee]

. . . or are we still just trying to fix the damaging early relationships?

 

I'm no expert, but one suggestion I have seen is that the early experiences create a conditioned feeling, an emotional state, and under the "right" circumstances with the "right" type of person as its focus, we are compelled to attempt to replicate that emotional state.

 

Maybe it's because it just feels somehow so familiar even if painful, or maybe we subconsciously think this time we'll get it right.

 

I like to think it's my higher self calling to me to "work on this issue, dummy, and you'll be happier".

[ladydesigner]

 

I think a lot of people have a hard time walking away from an affair when they are bothered by similar lingering issues. It keeps them emotionally hooked, in an unhealthy way, and apparently for some, it is a very strong hook. * *

 

I read about people here who are in these relationships that have so many unhealthy features, (which they tend to minimize, or to which they are oblivious,) and they talk about the incredible bond they have with the person - I think that incredible bond is simply abuse bonding/trauma bonding.*

 

I think the draw to stay in the relationship even once they realize it is hurtful and unhealthy, is trauma bonding, and that need to "fix" the broken relationship, this time, is trauma repetition. You keep getting in abusive relationships, trying to fix it this time.

 

I also came to see that anyone in an A, (with the possible exception of OWoman) is in an abusive relationship of some degree. I've mentioned why affairs are abusive in a previous post on this thread. Based on my previous postings, I believe that if a person is in an affair, they are in fact in an emotionally abusive relationship. The back and forth of abandonment, neglect, and then the "reward" of affection and attention - no matter how subtle it may be, has all the dynamics of an abusive R.

 

I believe people who have experienced trauma (including accumulative trauma), are more susceptible to getting into affairs, and that trauma bonding keeps them there, and keeps them thinking that the incredible connection is love.

 

Wow FoG I have the chills reading all this and like you I feel this thread is giving me the closure I have needed for so long. I realize I have a road ahead of me in which I need to explore within myself. I also need to forgive myself.

 

I was molested as a child, raped in teens, had a very emotionally distant father growing up who was emotionally abusive as well, was lucky enough to experience a physically abusive relationship, infidelity in marriage, you name it. It is sick that I have viewed this trauma bonding as love. I realize this now and am coming to terms with this. How to change this pattern is what I need to figure out next. I guess the first step is identifying it.

[Fieldsofgold]

Okay. Taking a deeeep breath here. This is it.

 

My parents divorced when I was a baby. My dad came in and out of my life very infrequently, sometimes vanishing for YEARS. That's UNVAILABILITY. This is what I am trying to do, isn't it? To prove that I can win the love of an unavailable man. To prove that I am important to him.

 

I'm taking a deep breath, too! This is giving me chills. This is powerful stuff.

 

RC, this explains volumes for me, too. The underlined!

Edited December 10, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[ladydesigner]

Okay. Taking a deeeep breath here. This is it.

 

My parents divorced when I was a baby. My dad came in and out of my life very infrequently, sometimes vanishing for YEARS. That's UNVAILABILITY. This is what I am trying to do, isn't it? To prove that I can win the love of an unavailable man. To prove that I am important to him.

 

 

Yes redcurls, this is the pattern I have been following as well. I believe it was Spark who gave me this insight. I had an emotionally distant father, never showed much affection and was always critical. I have always found men who were either 1. Unavailable or 2. Emotionally distant and commitment phobic

 

Aaagghh this stuff just hurts so much

[redcurls]

Not on is MM unavailable by virtue (ha!) of being married, he is also VERY much under his wife's complete control (not judging here - he seem to LIKE it this way) so he is even more UNAVAILABLE that most.

 

That's why I can't let go. Because I can't accept that I have "failed" in getting an unavailable man love and attention. Again.

[MorningCoffee]

Okay. Taking a deeeep breath here. This is it.

 

My parents divorced when I was a baby. My dad came in and out of my life very infrequently, sometimes vanishing for YEARS. That's UNVAILABILITY. This is what I am trying to do, isn't it? To prove that I can win the love of an unavailable man. To prove that I am important to him.

 

Wow, that is powerful. Maybe it is what you are trying to do. I'm not qualified to say, I'm no expert. But there are parallels: in my case the emotional distance was within the home and was part of our family system, whereas with your situation the distance was both emotional and physical.

 

Something to think about. Haven't looked back to see if you mention it or not -- are you in counselling? That can be the place to explore these issues, in a safe environment with someone trained in how family systems work and the long-term effects our experiences can have.

 

Best wishes.

[Fieldsofgold]

Not on is MM unavailable by virtue (ha!) of being married, he is also VERY much under his wife's complete control (not judging here - he seem to LIKE it this way) so he is even more UNAVAILABLE that most.

 

That's why I can't let go. Because I can't accept that I have "failed" in getting an unavailable man love and attention. Again.

 

WOW, so your dad was more unavailable than most, and so you picked a man who was the most unavailable of the "unavailable!" Wow!

 

I think you've nailed it.

 

What MC posted, what Freestyle posted, and what you've posted, esp. about your early history and conclusions . . . I am seeing my own "reasons" so clearly now.

[Fieldsofgold]

I'm no expert, but one suggestion I have seen is that the early experiences create a conditioned feeling, an emotional state, and under the "right" circumstances with the "right" type of person as its focus, we are compelled to attempt to replicate that emotional state.

 

Maybe it's because it just feels somehow so familiar even if painful, or maybe we subconsciously think this time we'll get it right.

 

I like to think it's my higher self calling to me to "work on this issue, dummy, and you'll be happier".

 

Yes, this is good MC. I think it might be G-d calling us to be more healthy and complete.

[Fieldsofgold]

"Maybe it's because it just feels somehow so familiar even if painful, or maybe we subconsciously think this time we'll get it right."

 

MC, I think both of these are right. I think I am drawn to what feels familiar, and at least initially, comfortable - even though I may not realize what that

"draw" is.

[BB07]

"Maybe it's because it just feels somehow so familiar even if painful, or maybe we subconsciously think this time we'll get it right."

 

MC, I think both of these are right. I think I am drawn to what feels familiar, and at least initially, comfortable - even though I may not realize what that

"draw" is.

 

 

Fields.....I think you hit the nail on the head or should I say my head.

 

This thread has me thinking about something else that is related, but I've always thought of myself as being someone who has a strong intuitive sense about people but it's slapping me in the face when I examine that in regards to the men in my life. I still do believe I have a good intuitive sense about people, but what is it that is broken in me that causes me to override that? Do I just ignore the warning signs or is my need to fix myself or have it turn out right this time more powerful than my intuition?

[Fieldsofgold]

Wow FoG I have the chills reading all this and like you I feel this thread is giving me the closure I have needed for so long. I realize I have a road ahead of me in which I need to explore within myself. I also need to forgive myself.

 

I was molested as a child, raped in teens, had a very emotionally distant father growing up who was emotionally abusive as well, was lucky enough to experience a physically abusive relationship, infidelity in marriage, you name it. It is sick that I have viewed this trauma bonding as love. I realize this now and am coming to terms with this. How to change this pattern is what I need to figure out next. I guess the first step is identifying it.

 

The similarities in so many of our backgrounds here is significant, I think. I am so sorry for what you went through. I think it's important that you mentioned forgiving yourself. I have a lot of self-unforgiveness, both for things I am guilty of, and for misplaced blame, too.

 

I get so focused on forgiving others, I forget I need to forgive me, too.

 

The importance to us of the things we are realizing here - I can almost feel sort of a collective weight being lifted from us.

 

You're right that the first step of identifying it is the most important part. At least now we have a better idea of what we're trying to heal.

 

When I was reading some of the other facets of traumatic reactions, particularly trauma abstinance, I realized that a lot of my little quirks I couldn't understand before, or change, suddenly make sense.

 

It's like what Redcurls said in an earlier post. She had tried to attribute her behavior to some sort of relationship addiction pattern, although that never quite fit. That's how I was about some of the things in my life. I was trying to change things, without realizing what I was actually dealing with.

 

Knowing what I'm dealing with IS the first step.

 

 

 

I like that you

[redcurls]

Fields.....I think you hit the nail on the head or should I say my head.

 

This thread has me thinking about something else that is related, but I've always thought of myself as being someone who has a strong intuitive sense about people but it's slapping me in the face when I examine that in regards to the men in my life. I still do believe I have a good intuitive sense about people, but what is it that is broken in me that causes me to override that? Do I just ignore the warning signs or is my need to fix myself or have it turn out right this time more powerful than my intuition?

 

 

I struggle with the same issue. I am sooooo good at "reading" people. Inlife, business, social circumstances. With regards to MM - the warning signs were there. Of course they were. Both about his personality, and more so about his marriage, and how he is under wife's complete control.

 

Did it deter me? NOOOO. I just had to go "there." stuck my hand in the fire. My god how it burns.

[redcurls]

Wow. I can't even fault my MM (or xMM, whatever) for any of this. I KNEW what I was getting into as far as his circumstances, and I did it anyway. I did it just so I can "fix" what is broken within ME. I did it just so I can prove to myself that I can "have" him, his love, attention. I did it because I wanted to become important to him. I did it so I can prove to myself that in spite of his UNAVAILABILITY - I "got" him.

 

So I (me, me, me) did this to myself - and to HIM and his family as well.

 

Regardless of the "justifications - not very proud of myself at this moment.

[Fieldsofgold]

Fields.....I think you hit the nail on the head or should I say my head.

 

This thread has me thinking about something else that is related, but I've always thought of myself as being someone who has a strong intuitive sense about people but it's slapping me in the face when I examine that in regards to the men in my life. I still do believe I have a good intuitive sense about people, but what is it that is broken in me that causes me to override that? Do I just ignore the warning signs or is my need to fix myself or have it turn out right this time more powerful than my intuition?

 

BB, I know. My head is sore, too, from so many slaps upside it in this thread!

 

It's interesting that you bring up intuition. "September" started an interesting thread about women's intuition, asking the same questions.

 

I, too, have unbelievable intuition - until it comes to the most important, intimate R's, that is.

 

One poster suggests that wishful thinking overrides intuition every time. I think that's true. I also really lime JThorne's sig: "People show us who they are, but we ignore it. We want them to be who we want them to be."

 

Regarding my last R, I will have to admit that I had a feeling that he wasn't available, at the beginning. I KNEW he couldn't be married because he wouldn't be openly dating me , but I wondered if he had another gf, or maybe was in love with/pining away for, someone else. I quizzed him several times, several different times, about his availability. He firmly denied it, and so, short of doing a home inspection, I accepted his answer. BUT I DID have that intuition. That's why I asked. My wishful thinking, along with his adamant denials, overrode my intuition.

 

Like MC suggested, maybe it is that we sense a familiarity about them that makes us ignore our intuition.

 

Check out September's thread about it. It should be interesting.

[Fieldsofgold]

Wow. I can't even fault my MM (or xMM, whatever) for any of this. I KNEW what I was getting into as far as his circumstances, and I did it anyway. I did it just so I can "fix" what is broken within ME. I did it just so I can prove to myself that I can "have" him, his love, attention. I did it because I wanted to become important to him. I did it so I can prove to myself that in spite of his UNAVAILABILITY - I "got" him.

 

So I (me, me, me) did this to myself - and to HIM and his family as well.

 

Regardless of the "justifications - not very proud of myself at this moment.

 

Just be glad you're seeing it now, instead of 5 years from now!

 

I like what LadyDesigner said about forgiving ourselves.

 

And yes, you CAN blame xMM, too. He's no blameless lamb in all this. He did his part to help you keep stringing along. And he may likely continue to try keeping your hand in the fire. Don't for one minute think that he is blameless. (btw, I'm calling him xMM, because I don't think you will ever look at him the same way again )

[redcurls]

Just be glad you're seeing it now, instead of 5 years from now!

 

I like what LadyDesigner said about forgiving ourselves.

 

And yes, you CAN blame xMM, too. He's no blameless lamb in all this. He did his part to help you keep stringing along. And he may likely continue to try keeping your hand in the fire. Don't for one minute think that he is blameless. (btw, I'm calling him xMM, because I don't think you will ever look at him the same way again )

 

Yeah. He has done his own share of uglies. And he IS a pathological lier. I suspect it stems from his dynamics at home, but the reasons are not relevant to his relationships with ME.

 

xMM. Yes. I think you're right. Can it be?

[freestyle]

"to win the love of an unavailable person" . . .

 

I agree with you Freestyle . . . But why? Why do we have that need? Do we need that to feel worthwhile? Successful? Validated?

 

 

Not claiming to be an expert myself, but I've been doing extensive research and reading on the dynamics of infidelity, abusive relationships,& FOO (family of Origin) issues.

 

I keep seeing recurring themes........

 

For example,have you ever known someone in your life that went through several bad relationships? They kept rejecting the one's who treated them well, and fixated on the one who mistreated them , or was unavailable?Couldn't get that one person out of their head?

 

(*raising my own hand, sheepishly*--that was me years ago)

 

There is a common theory that it's an attempt to heal an early childhood wound---which may have been imprinted even before a sense of conscious identity is fully developed.

 

Imagine a young toddler experiencing rejection--reaching out for a parent , only to be rebuked, for whatever reason..(Daddy's going to work, Mommy's too busy right now...)

 

If that child feels rejected too often, if love and affection, praise are withheld--they will alter their behavior in an effort to get those fundamental needs met. To feel securely loved, accepted...........

 

A very young child doesn't have the tools to rationalize rejection.Being that dependent on a parent for survival--repeated rejection could be viewed in the young mind as a threat to survival. So love must be won, at any cost!!!

This can etch the deepest grooves into the tissues of a developing psyche.

And our thought patterns can easily slip into and run merrily along in those well-greased, established grooves.It takes work, and conscious effort not to get stuck in those grooves, and forge new pathways of thought.

 

These same dramas keep repeating--from ALL positions of the triangle.

 

I'm speculating that in some cases--the type of OW/OM who deliberately sets out to interlope on an already established relationship is actually reenacting a childhood drama of sibling rivalry or competing with mommy for daddy's attention.Or vice versa....

 

Or the WS--rebelling in teenage style fashion ("You can't tell me who I can or can't be friends with!!!") setting up the BS to fill the role of the mean parent that they want to "get back at..'.(I'll show YOU!")

 

Or the BS who stays with a serial cheater--has he/she become so ingrained to being abused (serial cheating IS abuse, IMO)because that's all he/she has ever known?It's familiar, therefore comfortable?

 

I know there are some who will scoff at these theories as pop psychology--but they make sense to my sense of logic.

 

These light bulb moments going off for several posters in this thread--well, it's happened to me , too.I've only recently started on my own Emotional Archeological Dig---whoo boy! It's pretty amazing when you start playing connect the dots..........

Edited December 10, 2010 by freestyle