When and why women go for the nice guy

[hoping2heal]

hoping 2 heal. this is a real post. i've probably got alot of baggage.

 

i'll be the first to admit i'm not a great looking guy. not great attitude or bright outlook on life, overweight. i'm working on making improvements.

I just feel i'm at the mercy of a woman giving me a chance.

 

The poor attitude and outlook on life would be a major turn off for me, tbh. If you think losing weight would boost your chances with the ladies and give you more confidence than committ to that but I'll be honest and tell you that a david downer is not attractive. Some of the best advice I ever heard was "be the person you would want to date". Would you want to date a girl who was hum glum?

 

Excess weight is one thing but a bad attitude is just plain a deal breaker for me and probably for many other women too unless they are like that themselves in which case you don't really want to spend Friday nights furnishing one another's negativity party, do you?

[griffinchicken53]

i think i love you hoping2heal......

prob why i want someone more attractive, they probably won't be david downers.

 

i am trying to change my outlook and have noticed improvements in the way people talk to me. i've just got to remember to make changes for myself, and not for hopes of getting a girl.

[hoping2heal]

i think i love you hoping2heal......

prob why i want someone more attractive, they probably won't be david downers.

 

i am trying to change my outlook and have noticed improvements in the way people talk to me. i've just got to remember to make changes for myself, and not for hopes of getting a girl.

 

Griffin, you would be surprised at the amount of negative very attractive people both men and women.

 

This is something I have been trying to stress to you from the begining. Simply being attractive makes you neither a wonderful nor a terrible person inwardly. Simply being average or less than average looking does not automatically mean you will be a wonderful nor terrible person inwardly either.

 

I have been exposed to a wide variety of people. I have met some people who based on looks alone really could not afford to be so selfish, mean and just plain nasty but oh they were. Just as I have met some very attractive both men and women who were thoughtful and genuine and all around awesome. People are on a case by case basis and their outward appearance alone is not enough to simply say they make bad partners.

 

As for the latter part of your post, yes do some things to make yourself happy with you - and you will start gaining confidence and that will start attracting women.

[Untouchable_Fire]

This is something I have been trying to stress to you from the begining. Simply being attractive makes you neither a wonderful nor a terrible person inwardly. Simply being average or less than average looking does not automatically mean you will be a wonderful nor terrible person inwardly either.

 

Just because someone is very attractive now does not mean they were in years past.

 

I have noticed that people who were more attractive growing up, don't tend to have as great of personalities as those who grew up less attractive.

 

I think part of that reason is that when you are unattractive you must develop other skills to gain attention. Those people learn to be funny, or smart, or very nice... ect.

 

In fact the most odious person I know grew up as one of those child beauty queens. Today she has no looks, charm, or any real redeeming quality. Quite frankly I think she abuses her kids too... but that's for another thread.

[deebeechrisyo]

The extremely hot ones are not worth the effort. I'm just glad I learned that at 16-17 instead of 30.

 

I'm with you there. I find the cute/pretty girls much more attractive then the hottest girls anyway. It's hard to explain why... whenever I see a very hot girl, porn stars come to mind and I'm pretty much turned off lol. A pretty face with an average body is oh so good.

[phineas]

When history dictates caution, watch carefully for want and attraction to match up. Consistency of action and word *can* mean change has occurred. People grow and change and learn from life experience. Acceptance with boundaries can be as healthy as it is 'nice'.

 

This perspective is far easier to apply to non-romantic relationships, because everything is arms-length and few elemental emotions are involved. Attraction, infatuation, emotional intimacy and sex cloud romantic dynamics.

 

Had I paid better attention to the want/attraction dynamic when younger, picking healthy and compatible partners would have been far easier. Live and learn

 

I believe this is the main reason why the last woman lost interest. She has a history of dateing jerks / players.

Men whose own needs were all that was important.

 

I knew her for a yr so I knew what she had been attracted to & wasn't interested & it seemed my lack of interest made her's grow. So she's the type of girl that chases after guys who really arn't interested in anything long term with her.

I thought at 38 she had learned that these men were no good for her because she told me she saw they wern't & said she wasn't going to date anybody unless they were upfront about wanting a relationship.

 

I noticed when I barely touched my cellphone when I went away on vacation she was loosing her damn mind sending me texts.

Responding asap if I sent one ect.

 

It was right up to the night when she was at my house & she said she wanted to date me & I didn't try to sleep with her on the spot I think it went south.

 

The kind of guy she dated would of never let her leave his house without pushing for sex. I know this. I know some of the guys she dated in the past & that is what those guys are like. I'm not like that.

 

Afterword I did push a little & she half-heartedly resisted but didn't stop me & I felt like I was forcing myself on her & her attraction level went up & she was texting me about when she could see me again before I even got home.

 

but I felt like a major creep so I backed off a little & didn't push & her attraction level went down & she dropped me to emotional tampon status.

 

I was looking for a relationship. I'm pretty sure I dodged a bullet with that one.

[Floridaman]

i'm 31 years old. i'm not after the 20 something college girl. ideally i would think somewhere inbetween 27-34 in the age range.

Thanks for the info, Griffin. That puts things in perspective here. I assumed you were in your 20s.

 

On that Dale Carnegie book, it's not about dating but about learning how to be good at conversation. I read it years ago and think it could help you.

Let's say i go with a scale of 1-10 as far as appearance. to be fair i'm going to put myself at a 4-5 range. now back in high school i went for the 9-10s and got lots of rejection. i don't want a 9-10. maybe somewhere in the 6-7 range.

This is good also. You're seeing yourself more realistically.

BTW, I wasn't considered a great looking guy, though I wasn't plain or below (I think). A woman at my 30th HS reunion told me I have generally kept the same looks while most of the other men there were bald, fat, gray hair, etc.

this makes sense. i've always gone after the extremely hot ones, and am like "what was i thinking?" i need to break the pattern.

Breaking that pattern will be good and could end so much of the heartbreak you've experienced. Like you and others posted here, many of those so-called "hot" girls don't have much in the personality dept.

i think i love you hoping2heal......

i am trying to change my outlook and have noticed improvements in the way people talk to me. i've just got to remember to make changes for myself, and not for hopes of getting a girl.

Watch out. Hoping2heal might be a hot girl!!! Just kidding. (I've read some of posts and know a little about her background). Her taking the time to post here and trying to help you in your situation says a lot about her personality.

Again, I urge you not to focus on looks. Relationships aren't based on physical appearance alone.

 

Keep your "dealbreakers" list as short as possible (no smoker, no drugs, no openly promiscuous, must be similar faith, outlook, etc.) as you don't want to screen-out potential girls that might work well for you. I don't think you'll be immediately successful in dating but you will obv. learn more with each girl you date.

[Taramere]

Yes becasue it would be better if he marries a women who feels she settled the whole time and just got married becasue her bioligcal clock was tickign then she cheats on him later in the relationship.

 

You have no way of knowing whether a woman some guy on a message board likes, and has a shot with, is just using him for "settling" purposes and will end up cheating on him. All we really know, about guys on this board who worry about being too nice for women to be attracted to them, is that they're low in confidence.

 

In some cases so low in confidence, and with such a tendency to ruminate, that unfortunately they are probably in danger of turning themselves into very negative, depressing people for others to be around. Being a nice person isn't an attraction killer, but being a shadow of eternal gloom and hopelessness is probably quite commonly perceived as a major turn off.

[Life2B]

I like the nice guys no matter what they look like. I like looking at hot guys and fantasize about them but I think most of them are not really relationship stuff. Of course there are very nice hot guys as well. I just never meet them and even when I do either we're just friends or he's not attracted to me (or of course he's gay). But when it comes down to it I've never fallen head over heels and all my relationships were just hard work with average looking nice guys. I think that looks aren't that important. Find a nice guy and if he's hot that's a bonus

[GoodOnPaper]

I like looking at hot guys and fantasize about them but I think most of them are not really relationship stuff.

 

I think this is the sort of thing that gets confusing for some of us guys who have struggled to attract women. What sort of physical attraction is there to someone who has this "relationship stuff"? It sounds like it can't compare to the attraction to some hot guy even under the most casual of circumstances.

[sally4sara]

I think there are a lot of people fooling themselves in this thread.

 

After so many years of dating; hot, average, cute in a quirky way guys, I learned one thing about men in general (probably people in general too).

 

Pretty much all of you are jerks. Or at least capable of being quite jerky. Otherwise I wouldn't have dumped so many of you. It doesn't matter what you look like; you're all jerks. And that goes for the women folk too.

 

The only through and through hot and jerky guy I dated was in high school when I was too naive to know that someone could seek out your company AND want to make the time you spent with them awful.

 

So I listened to the advise of others. Mom, best friends, older people who should have known better. It wasn't until I stopped looking for immediately identifiable red flags others warned me about and just dated who I wanted that I found my perfect blend of jerk/nice/hot. Every guy I dated before him had weird ideas of how I, as a woman, should act. Every guy before him lacked that concern for your fellow human quality I admire.

I asked him where he learned to be so perfect. He said it was Spiderman, Dwayne Wayne, and Fozzie Bear - waka waka waka.

[Floridaman]

Pretty much all of you are jerks. Or at least capable of being quite jerky. Otherwise I wouldn't have dumped so many of you. It doesn't matter what you look like; you're all jerks. And that goes for the women folk too. .

Wow. Talk about some broad, sweeping generalizations.

You might as well say ALL PEOPLE are jerks, including yourself.

[sally4sara]

Wow. Talk about some broad, sweeping generalizations.

You might as well say ALL PEOPLE are jerks, including yourself.

 

Quite capable.

 

And I did say pretty much all people. Why some of you believe one has to be a jerk to get a date and yet still can't get a date is beyond. If it was true, most of the guys posting on here would have women crawling all over them.

[Floridaman]

Quite capable.

 

And I did say pretty much all people. Why some of you believe one has to be a jerk to get a date and yet still can't get a date is beyond. If it was true, most of the guys posting on here would have women crawling all over them.

I agree with you on the bolded. It's crazy to think women only go for jerks, though I may have seen this type of behavior with former GFs and not really recognized it.

 

For the record, I never intentionally acted like a jerk to keep women interested. As I said, I never acted like that towards my former GF who I turned into a fiance and later wife and she didn't date jerks either, though her former fiance acted like a jerk in ditching her, breaking their engagement and going after some other skirt... His loss was my gain though.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Floridaman

[Woggle]

S4S aren't you just as bad as you claim men to be in saying that all men are jerks? You get mad when I even say that most women are a certain but then you make this broad generalization.

[sally4sara]

S4S aren't you just as bad as you claim men to be in saying that all men are jerks? You get mad when I even say that most women are a certain but then you make this broad generalization.

 

I said the same goes for women too. Try to read post in their entirety rather than just what is said about men. Since I have less experience dating women, I can't speak so much for how often it applies. But considering how many self absorbed PEOPLE I've met, I said it probably applies to most women too.

 

Besides Woggle, since you can't call out men for their crap because you're a man - I'm getting pretty sick of you checking me for every post I make to see if I only call out men for their crap. Why do I have to be so much more fair than you to not get hassled by you about this? Its not like you're going to follow my lead; I'm a woman after all and that would make you a "traitor" right?

 

I'd dump you too because you're unfair.

[Woggle]

At least I admit that I take sides.

[Floridaman]

Otherwise I wouldn't have dumped so many of you.

 

I'd dump you too because you're unfair.

Man, could I teach you something and bring you back to reality.

 

No, I've never been a "player," which is what I suspect you are.

You, however, might build up feelings for me and guess what would happen next....

 

Take a listen to this song from a "player" who got his heart walked on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiIqyF6RnzU

The leader of a big 60s-70s rock and roll group who maybe realized he had sex with a few too many women... now look how low he is..

 

"...sometimes late at night... when there's nothing here but my old piano... I'd almost give my hands to make you see my way..."

"...you got me down on my knees for you mammma..."

 

"Stand tall... don't you fall and do something you'd regret later..."

Edited December 15, 2010 by Floridaman

[Taramere]

Take a listen to this song from a "player" who got his heart walked on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiIqyF6RnzU

The leader of a big 60s-70s rock and roll group who maybe realized he had sex with a few too many women... now look how low he is..

 

Medallion Man!

 

Back in the 1980s, when I was a judgemental teen, I knew there had to be a parallel universe where men like Lionel Ritchie, Peter Stringfellow and former Radio 1 DJ Gary Davies would be regarded as the Love Gods they clearly considered themselves to be. I'm not sure whether to thank the Internet for introducing me to that strange, parallel universe - or shoot it.

[sally4sara]

Man, could I teach you something and bring you back to reality.

 

No, I've never been a "player," which is what I suspect you are.

You, however, might build up feelings for me and guess what would happen next....

 

Take a listen to this song from a "player" who got his heart walked on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiIqyF6RnzU

The leader of a big 60s-70s rock and roll group who maybe realized he had sex with a few too many women... now look how low he is..

 

"...sometimes late at night... when there's nothing here but my old piano... I'd almost give my hands to make you see my way..."

"...you got me down on my knees for you mammma..."

 

"Stand tall... don't you fall and do something you'd regret later..."

 

I've never cheated or lied about how I felt for someone to keep them around. I've never expected more out of someone than I could offer. So I'm not sure how I could be considered a "player".

 

Woggle delights in holding me to a standard he cannot live up to himself. That was the kind of mentality that had me ending things with people before.

How it goes for dating women, I'm not very aware of.

How it often went for me in dating men was they offer up monogamy (which they were getting in return) and expected that was all there was to it for them. I like to cook and only had one dance hall I enjoyed going to on one particular night out of the week. I would rather watch a movie at home than in a cold, over priced theater. Seeing as I didn't go dancing every week, my relationships ended up being all about cooking for the guy and whatever friend he had over. I'd find interesting events and exhibits to go to - always the same excuse; not their kind of thing. Well neither is playing mom to you and all your friends while you play video games and watch sports "my kind of thing" since we are not married and I had to do it at my own place too. I like to cook doesn't mean I like to be cafeteria lady! Never any reciprocity in the friends hanging around being my friends. The charity work I do was usually seen as me wasting time I could have been giving them (cooking and play hostess no doubt is a much more important charity to devote time to ). And that they might join me - HA!

But hey, they were only sleeping with me so I guess I should have felt honored right?

 

Were they outright jerks? No. If they had been they wouldn't have made it past a date or two. They, and most people I meet, are just out for what they can get with the smallest amount of effort they can get away with. and that just wasn't enough to get me to cool my jets for very long. Now I don't have to worry about it.

But I come on here and read about how jerks always get the wimminz. That they are too nice and that is why they get none. Yeah, you all think you're nice if you're only sleeping with one girl and don't call her names or hit her but that in of itself isn't much of an offering if they're giving you the same and more.

[Life2B]

@GoodOnPaper It's like looking at playboy for guys. It's purely lust.

[Taramere]

Were they outright jerks? No. If they had been they wouldn't have made it past a date or two. They, and most people I meet, are just out for what they can get with the smallest amount of effort they can get away with. and that just wasn't enough to get me to cool my jets for very long.

 

There are a lot of men out there who will automatically disparage anything that's popular with women. Whether it's a particular type of music, movie, tv programme, book or any other artform...if a lot of women like it then it must be disparaged. In light of that it would make sense, in a way, that any man who is popular with women is automatically going to be regarded with a certain amount of contempt or mistrust by other men.

 

The bloke you're describing, desirous of playing eternal teenager while some mumsy-but-at-the-same-time-attractive woman is thrilled to bring him sandwiches and cups of tea and doesn't have any needs beyond that need to be of service, sounds like someone who would be popular with other men. I can think of quite a few friends' boyfriends/husbands who are like that. Nice blokes, but I wouldn't want to be stuck in a room on my own with them for too long. There's just not much common ground - they're blokes' blokes who aren't very comfortable around women unless those women are in a clear role that provides them with some personal benefit... such as a secretary, mother, supportive sister or wife. It doesn't matter how friendly or polite you are with a guy like that - or how supportive you are of him ("he's a really good guy") when your friend is mulling over whether he's really someone she wants to spend the rest of her life with. You can practically cut the mistrust with a knife.

 

Then you get the guys who genuinely enjoy female company, behave in a really considerate way and seem to like/understand women very well, and who are therefore sometimes considered to be pricks by the more blokey type of man. The flipside is that because they often have a lot of female friends there's the increased risk that they'll end up cheating on a partner with one of said female friends (my personal experience, at least).

 

I don't think there's a clear demarcation which helps people to know "this one's a jerk, that one's a nice guy." Guy A could be your best friend in 100 different ways, but could break your heart by cheating on you with one of his female buddies. Guy B could have a mildly misogynistic mindset which is unpleasant for any woman to be around - but be redeemed by having a strong value against hitting/cheating on women. Guy A and Guy B would probably regard eachother as jerks.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Taramere

[sally4sara]

There are a lot of men out there who will automatically disparage anything that's popular with women. Whether it's a particular type of music, movie, tv programme, book or any other artform...if a lot of women like it then it must be disparaged. In light of that it would make sense, in a way, that any man who is popular with women is automatically going to be regarded with a certain amount of contempt or mistrust by other men.

 

The bloke you're describing, desirous of playing eternal teenager while some mumsy-but-at-the-same-time-attractive woman is thrilled to bring him sandwiches and cups of tea and doesn't have any needs beyond that need to be of service, sounds like someone who would be popular with other men. I can think of quite a few friends' boyfriends/husbands who are like that. Nice blokes, but I wouldn't want to be stuck in a room on my own with them for too long. There's just not much common ground - they're blokes' blokes who aren't very comfortable around women unless those women are in a clear role that provides them with some personal benefit... such as a secretary, mother, supportive sister or wife. It doesn't matter how friendly or polite you are with a guy like that - or how supportive you are of him ("he's a really good guy") when your friend is mulling over whether he's really someone she wants to spend the rest of her life with. You can practically cut the mistrust with a knife.

 

Then you get the guys who genuinely enjoy female company, behave in a really considerate way and seem to like/understand women very well, and who are therefore sometimes considered to be pricks by the more blokey type of man. The flipside is that because they often have a lot of female friends there's the increased risk that they'll end up cheating on a partner with one of said female friends (my personal experience, at least).

 

I don't think there's a clear demarcation which helps people to know "this one's a jerk, that one's a nice guy." Guy A could be your best friend in 100 different ways, but could break your heart by cheating on you with one of his female buddies. Guy B could have a mildly misogynistic mindset which is unpleasant for any woman to be around - but be redeemed by having a strong value against hitting/cheating on women. Guy A and Guy B would probably regard eachother as jerks.

 

You always say it so much better than I do!

I promise you these guys, after I broke up with them, were truly stunned that I would dump such a "nice guy" as themselves and nursed the wound with assumptions that they were not jerky enough to keep me. That I had no reason to dump them. After all, they didn't cheat or knock me around so what other reason could there have been?

[SteveC80]

I like the nice guys no matter what they look like. I like looking at hot guys and fantasize about them but I think most of them are not really relationship stuff. Of course there are very nice hot guys as well. I just never meet them and even when I do either we're just friends or he's not attracted to me (or of course he's gay). But when it comes down to it I've never fallen head over heels and all my relationships were just hard work with average looking nice guys. I think that looks aren't that important. Find a nice guy and if he's hot that's a bonus

 

Exhibit A,a women who will go with an average guy to get a relationship but still fantasize about the really hot guy

[Taramere]

You always say it so much better than I do!

I promise you these guys, after I broke up with them, were truly stunned that I would dump such a "nice guy" as themselves and nursed the wound with assumptions that they were not jerky enough to keep me. That I had no reason to dump them. After all, they didn't cheat or knock me around so what other reason could there have been?

 

It reminds me of times I've gone on a date, and spent most of the time thinking "this is awful. We're not connecting at all. It's like making conversation with a stone..." Then at the end of the date the guy has said "I'd really like to see you again..." and you think to yourself "WTF? He didn't seem to enjoy himself at all. Why does he want a repeat?"

 

I think sometimes it does just come down to the guy thinking "I'm physically attracted to her. I want a girlfriend. She'd fit in okay at the office annual Christmas bash. Why wouldn't I want to see her again?" Whereas you're sitting there thinking "we have nothing in common. Our senses of humour don't gel and the thought of having to accompany him to endless events where I have to make tortured conversation with his friends and colleagues' wives/girlfriends makes me want to eat my own fingers down to the knuckles."

 

If a man is very self centred it's not going to occur to him to contemplate whether you would actually be happy in that role he's picturing you in. If he's happy then you should be happy, is probably how his thinking goes. I suspect the notion that happiness is something women should be content to experience on a second hand basis is a pretty die-hard one.