Self-forgiveness

[Inexpiable]

Hello everyone,

 

I'm new to this, so I hope you will forgive me if I'm posting this introduction in the wrong forum. Here's my story:

 

When I was 17, I started dating a 15 year old girl I met in high school. We had a truely beautiful relationship, and spiritual kinship like none other I've ever known. Years passed and the relationship flurished. We both attended seperate colleges, and established ourselves in high-paying jobs before settling down for marriage. The marriage was storybook for the first two years. Half way through the third year, I felt a growing discontent. I resented having my life mapped out before me. I craved the unexpected, uncertainty, and conflict! Yes, CONFLICT! We had never had a single fight in our 12 year relationship. We knew each other's thoughts and were consistantly in agreement on everything as our interests, likes and dislikes were identical. She was the first woman I had ever loved. THIS was the life we had built. My discontent with this truely numbing maritial-bliss ate away at me until I decided I just wanted OUT. To seal that fate, I had an "exit affair" that I made certain my wife knew about. I wanted to hurt her so she would hate me as I was already starting to hate myself for what I was doing. I did not want her forgiveness, I wanted her permission to leave. It worked. We divorced quickly, ending a 12 and a half year relationship. My parents, friends, and coworkers immediately distanced themselves from me, having learned of what true evil I was capable of. I found myself feeling more alone than I had ever imagined would be possible. I recall awakening every morning shocked to see my reoccuring nightmare was one I could never awake from. Whatever had been coming over me quickly passed, but my fate was sealed. Weeks, months and years passed and I struggled to accept my new life. I learned that regardless of how much time passes, no amount of genuine soul-bleeding contrition can ever atone for such an inexpiable transgression. As the years have passed, I grown more and more imperturbable. Souless, and cold. Devoid of all spirit. Hollowed by relentless caustic self-abhorrence.

 

Just four years after that divorce, I attempted to seek refuge from my self-inflicted personal hell, in another marriage. This relationship quickly became tumultuous as I discovered my new bride had her own set of "issues" she brought to the union. It seems a part of her personality I was unaware of is her cronic explosive rage and all around discontent about life in general. Anyone and everyone is the cause of and or target of her rancor. I quickly fell out-of-love with her when she said, "hey this is just WHO I AM," refusing to seek accept responsibility and take remedial steps. For the past 10 years, I've had to endure her daily tirades, that most of which although are not directed AT me, I'm still on the receiving end because I'm "her husband and have a responsibility to listen to her" as she says. That I do. One cannot help but HEAR her! Even the neighbors! I NEVER fight with her, but remain taciturn, too withdrawn to feel any pain she may try to dish out. We share no intimacy, physical or otherwise. I've been questioned on numerous occasions by peers and family (hers and mine) why I endure her abuse. I always give them the lame excuse of "commitment to my vows", but I know the real reason is self-punishment for what I had done to my first wife and marriage 14 years ago. I can NEVER forgive myself for being such an a**h*** to one so undeserving. My present marriage is the prison in which I serve my lifetime sentence. One of self-less servitude to an ungrateful shrew, with no hope of ever experiencing love again, and only distant yet painful memories of what it was like. A sentence I'm sure many of you will find too lenient but that's where I am today. How's that for "coping?"

[meanon]

You posted this in just the right place. I agree with your diagnosis: Self forgiveness. Why are you doing this to yourself? It isn't making things better for your first wife, it doesn't in any way alleviate her pain. Some people can not handle living their entire life from a young age with another person - often the split comes many, many years into the relationship. It has something to do with developing personalities between the ages of around 15 - 19 together, with no time or space to forge identity on one's own. There are cases when this doesn't happen - I just wanted you to know that the way you felt is not uncommon for someone in your position. Neither is it uncommon to seek an exit affair although it is cruel to do so deliberately as you have done.

 

If we make a bad mistake in life, what can we do? Express regret, try and make amends, limit the damage as far as possible, resolve to never let it happen again. Seeking unsuitable liaisons with women to escape seems to be your mistake - you've done it twice. Learn from it, become more self sufficient. If you love your wife do try and help her, she's not the only on with unresolved issues. If not then it really is kinder to leave her to seek some happiness with someone who can love her. You are wasting two lives by staying.

 

I think you should accept responsibility for what you have done, wear your guilt well - don't seek to absolve it by false means. Live a good life. I bet your ex has moved on although I'm sure she bears the marks, time for you to do the same.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon

Why are you doing this to yourself?

I'm convinced I deserve nothing else. In an effort to atone for my inexcusable act of selfishness, I now selflessly live to serve someone else. I expect and want nothing in return from her. I work very hard and long hours to provide a nice home and financial support for her. We are living on the edge of being above our means however, so the stress of losing this house-of-cards is incredible. I work 7 days per week, never taking a day off. Never taking vacations. I exist to serve, period. Enduring years of this lifestyle is starting to take it's toll on me. Although I'm in excellent condition otherwise, I have recently been diagnosed with very high blood pressure.

 

It isn't making things better for your first wife, it doesn't in any way alleviate her pain.

This is very true. My ex "moved on" and remarried less than a year after our divorce. We had an accidential encounter at the bank one afternoon a year after our divorce. There, we stopped and spoke briefly, exchanging the superficial and innane dialog of near-strangers. However, as we parted, she said, "I can NEVER forgive you for what you did." I just said, "As well you shouldn't." We've not seen each other in the 13 years since, but her words still ring in my ears and fuel my self-loathing.

 

Some people can not handle living their entire life from a young age with another person - often the split comes many, many years into the relationship. It has something to do with developing personalities between the ages of around 15 - 19 together, with no time or space to forge identity on one's own.

This was also the case in our situation. Throughout our entire relationship, it seemed there was not ME or HER, only "US." I had no self outside of the relationship. Perhaps it was just maturity, but without warning, I felt a growing need for independence. A selfishness that was incompatable with the warm-n-fuzzy sufficating codependent heaven I had been existing in. Some saw my exit as an immature need to sow my wild oats, however the issue was far deeper than that. I did not lead a promiscuous lifestyle ("exit affair" excepted) but became more reclusive, more "busy," immersing myself in my career, advancing my education, etc., becoming a hyper-responsible adult.

 

There are cases when this doesn't happen - I just wanted you to know that the way you felt is not uncommon for someone in your position.

Thank you, however it offers this chronically hyper-responsibile individual little solice to consider himself in good company, when it comes to such vile and irresponsible behavior. I do not deny my failure. I do not blame anyone but myself. I accept responsibility for the damage I've done. I just don't know what else I can do. Nothing seems like it's enough.

 

Neither is it uncommon to seek an exit affair although it is cruel to do so deliberately as you have done..

My cruelty was/is TOTALLY atypical of me, however no less evil. All the more justification for my sentence.

 

If we make a bad mistake in life, what can we do? Express regret, try and make amends, limit the damage as far as possible, resolve to never let it happen again.

I've done all that. Since my fall, I've lived the life of a saint, however none of that seems to matter. It seems I can never gain the self-respect I once had. The only consolation I have in life now, is knowing that I'm serving a lifetime sentence for my transgression.

 

Seeking unsuitable liaisons with women to escape seems to be your mistake - you've done it twice.

Actually, that's not accurate at all. I never sought "unsuitable liaisons." My first wife was a relationship of inexperience and learning which blossomed innocently during high-school. My exit affair was nothing short of my exploitation of someone else to LOCK the door behind me on the way out. My second marriage was a sincere attempt at "starting over" in my life. At that point in my life, I sincerely thought I had overcome my past and wanted so deeply to move on in with my life. However when I discovered the hostile nature of my new wife, instead of leaving or becoming resentful towards her, I discovered how to redirect her rancor deep inside of me. Her relentless belligerence served to validate my position and my self-loathing started to once again flourish.

 

Learn from it, become more self sufficient.

"Self sufficient?" Although living under the same roof as this woman, I can assure you, I'm very ALONE in this world. I'm not sure how much more self sufficient I can become short of moving to an Igloo in Antarctica and existing on lichin.

 

If you love your wife do try and help her, she's not the only on with unresolved issues. If not then it really is kinder to leave her to seek some happiness with someone who can love her. You are wasting two lives by staying.

For the record, I do NOT love my wife. She does not love me. That was clearly established a decade ago. She is welcome to leave at any time. I'm not doing anything to prevent that. However I do provide her with a comfortable lifestyle, which she accepts with little complaint (except she thinks I should demand more money from my employer). Over the years, she has grown as UNattractive on the outside as she is on the in. I doubt that she would seek "happiness" elsewhere if she chose to leave. I think she's about as happy as she is capable of and that isn't saying much. I, on the other hand, am not worthy of happiness. To cope with that, I've become extremely anhedonic/anti-hedonistic. The best I can do in this life is endure each day. I serve my spouse, employeer, neighbors, etc. Am responsible, charitable, outgoing and friendly, trustworthy, and intend to be such, util the day I die. Hopefully, that won't be too far in the distant future, because only then will my sentence be served in full.

 

I think you should accept responsibility for what you have done

Been doing that for 14 years.

 

wear your guilt well - don't seek to absolve it by false means.

I blame nobody but myself. Any misery as a result, is justified.

 

Live a good life.

Undeserved.

 

I bet your ex has moved on although I'm sure she bears the marks

She has, and she does. However she has done nothing wrong.

 

time for you to do the same.

THAT is the part I have difficulty accepting.

[Bronzepen]

You've done your penance. 12 years of bliss with your first marriage and 14 years of hell in your second.

 

Time to be happy again.

 

Although, it sounds like you have never experience happiness. Not even in your first marriage. It couldn't have been a blissfull marriage if you weren't happy with being bliss.

 

Sounds more like you don't want to be happy. You might have some deeper rooted issues that you have to deal with first.

 

Seek counseling.

[ojibwaywmn]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

Sounds more like you don't want to be happy. You might have some deeper rooted issues that you have to deal with first.

 

Seek counseling.

 

I agree....meanon's advice has been argued every step of the way. So I am not sure if you really want advice or are you looking for someone to validate your self-pity?

 

Being able to forgive yourself is very tough to do, it will take some time. What done is done. No one is perfect. But save yourself from this terrible grip of blame, self-pity, and guilt. It is the only way to live this life.

[shopgrl]

It sounds like you're torturing yourself for something you've done many, many years ago. What's done is done. Unfortunately, we cannot turn back time and correct our mistakes. It's time for you to REALLY accept what you did, forgive yourself and move on.

 

As for the situation with your current wife, you will never be happy with someone else until you are happy with yourself. It sounds to me that you may need some counseling or some time alone to find happiness. Life is too short to be living the way you are.

 

I'm curious though, do you think you are so unhappy and full of regret because deep down you are still in love your first wife and wish you never did what you did to her?

[meanon]

Sorry computer blip will re-send soon

[meanon]

Thanks for replying.

 

You recognise that you had needs that were not being met in the relationship. A growing need for some space for personal development, for independence is not selfish, it's normal, it's life. The affair was selfish, yes, but you are human - people make mistakes like this all the time. Accept that you are flawed instead of castigating yourself for failing to live up to perfection - THAT's responsibility.

 

It doesn't surprise me at all that your ex-wife said that to you when she met you. She was trying to hurt you. By now she will have moved on and unless she is really evil (you wouldn't love her if she was) she would never wish this on you. Regardless of whether you believe this, as your action has no effect on her this really is all about you, nothing about her. What you did is well in the past. Only you are keeping it alive in the present.

 

You are not seeking to take responsibility for what you have done, in my view, as responsibility means acceptance. You are seeking ONLY to punish yourself, not seek amends, not learn something from it, not live a better life, NOTHING constructive. Of course you know her, I do not, but your wife may be capable of achieving a happier life with someone who loves her, people can change and the future is not known to any of us.

 

You say you tried to seek a fresh start and it was only when your wife's nature asserted itself that your self loathing began. To some extent then, you had come to terms with your past. If this is the case your current need to continue punishing yourself is not logical, nothing changed other than your state of mind. I do think you became increasingly depressed and that illness is the source of your problem. If you had a broken leg would you tell yourself you deserved it and leave it untreated for 14 years? Get help now, please. If you committed homicide you'd have done your time. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is a normal response. It is pathological. Do something about it, please.

 

You have my deepest sympathy, yours is a tragic tale. Please try and get some help and let us know how you are getting on.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by Bronzepen

Time to be happy again.

 

Although, it sounds like you have never experience happiness. Not even in your first marriage. It couldn't have been a blissfull marriage if you weren't happy with being bliss.

Just to clarify, the discontent came at the very end of the relationship. Things were truely wonderful until that point. The simple fact was that I had outgrown her. With her, I effectively remained the 17 year old I was when we met. Had I stayed, I would never have made the professional or academic accomplishments that I have since leaving. THOSE, I value today far more than that sufficating utopia we shared as a marriage.

 

Sounds more like you don't want to be happy.

"Want" is the seed of discontent. The years have taught me that apathy can easily replace happiness, and with no effort at all. Instead, I focus my efforts on utilitarian activities rather than squandering them on such incorporeal maladies as happiness.

 

You might have some deeper rooted issues that you have to deal with first.

You're probably right about the issues, however what purpose would be served by pursuing them at this point?

[2SidestoStories]

"Want" is the seed of discontent. The years have taught me that apathy can easily replace happiness, and with no effort at all.

 

So you'd rather be attached to your complaining and your feigned apathy? Forgive me if I don't believe it when you state that you are apathetic. Self-deprication does not equal apathy. Projecting yourself as utilitarian does not equal apathy.

 

The validation you are seeking will not come from your current wife, as you are well aware. The validation you are seeking will not come from your first wife, either. Should she ever find it in her heart to forgive you, it will be for her sake and not for yours.

 

The only person here who can break the habits you've formed is you. You know this as well as anyone. You wouldn't have titled your thread "Self-forgiveness" were that not the case.

 

What is it that truly matters to you? Do you actually know? I would suggest you figure that out before classifying yourself as a failure and then living up to that "standard."

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by ojibwaywmn

I agree....meanon's advice has been argued every step of the way. So I am not sure if you really want advice or are you looking for someone to validate your self-pity?

"Self-pity?" You're way off base on that one. One cannot feel "pity" for one who is so deserving. Substitute "contempt" for pity and you'll be closer to the mark.

 

Being able to forgive yourself is very tough to do,

I know of habitual philanderers who seem to "forgive themselves" quite readily. However they obviously hold themselves to lower standards and consequences than I do.

 

it will take some time.

I have to wonder how much time is required. How is today any different than the day after I destroyed that marriage? What has changed besides the passage of time?

 

 

Lastly; what might appear to be resistance on my part (only because I've had 14 years to come to the conclusions I have), I sincerely appreciate you sharing your POV. Until I discovered this forum, I have never discussed this part of myself with anyone.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by shopgrl

I'm curious though, do you think you are so unhappy and full of regret because deep down you are still in love your first wife and wish you never did what you did to her?

I'm not sure how to answer that one. As I left her, yes, I still loved her. I loved her deeply and it killed me inside to leave, but just didn't want to remain in that marriage. That may not make sense to the outsider but that was the case. It made perfect sense to me at that maturity level, as we had practically grown up together. As the years have passed however, my memories of her and our relationship have faded but were replaced by what I had done. Now any memories of our past serve only as a reminder of my capacity for true evil. Do I still love her? No.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon

You recognise that you had needs that were not being met in the relationship. A growing need for some space for personal development, for independence is not selfish, it's normal, it's life.

A my independence was a "need" she wasn't able to provide. Until that point she had been the very air I'd breath. We were that to each other. That may make for great romance novels but it sucks to live it in real life, that is, unless you're both totally codependent. In which case, you surrender all boundaries, all sense of "self."

 

It doesn't surprise me at all that your ex-wife said that to you when she met you. She was trying to hurt you. By now she will have moved on and unless she is really evil (you wouldn't love her if she was) she would never wish this on you.

Perhaps you're correct, however I invision her feeling all warm-n-fuzzy inside with satisfaction if she knew.

 

Regardless of whether you believe this, as your action has no effect on her this really is all about you, nothing about her. What you did is well in the past. Only you are keeping it alive in the present.

 

How long is enough time? When does everything suddently become ok? One day? A month? A year? 14 years???

 

You are not seeking to take responsibility for what you have done, in my view, as responsibility means acceptance. You are seeking ONLY to punish yourself, not seek amends, not learn something from it, not live a better life, NOTHING constructive.

In the culture I was raised in, facing one's punishment is taking responsibility.

 

Of course you know her, I do not, but your wife may be capable of achieving a happier life with someone who loves her, people can change and the future is not known to any of us.

More power to her. However not likely as she has managed to drive away even her parents and siblings, as they don't visit, call or write any more. She blames them. I know better. The last words her sister said to me some years ago were, "I donno how you put up with it man..."

 

You say you tried to seek a fresh start and it was only when your wife's nature asserted itself that your self loathing began. To some extent then, you had come to terms with your past.

True. I had not absolved myself of guilt, but vowed I'd never make the same mistakes. This woman was VERY different than my first wife (more than I knew!!!), and she supported my need for independence, as she was an independent woman herself and I admired that in her.

 

If this is the case your current need to continue punishing yourself is not logical, nothing changed other than your state of mind.

I suppose it's just that I came to the conclusion that I was undeserving of the happiness I was persuing in that second marriage, that I was somehow cheating the system by attempting to start over, therefore my punishment was to endure this latest version of domestic hell.

 

I do think you became increasingly depressed and that illness is the source of your problem.

Having never met me, I can understand how you may draw that conclusion based upon what's written here, however I don't begin to conform to the DSM-IV's definition of depression. To get a clearer image of who I am while you're surfing the DSM-IV, look up SPD, then subtract the fantasy-life as well as any need for a sexual outlet (alone or otherwise). Sort of "Data" on StarTrek. Successful, extremely high-functioning, but totally detached and otherwise disinterested in social activities and interpersonal relationships, favoring more "productive" use of my time. In my case this is a manifestation of a my philosophy, not a disorder. I also do not drink, do drugs, smoke, gamble or pick your favorite vice or avenue of escapism.

 

Don't fool yourself into thinking this is a normal response. It is pathological.

It's the coping mechanism I've employed, and since this forum is about that very subject, I thought I'd share.

 

Please try and get some help and let us know how you are getting on.

In the unlikely event that I check-in someplace, I'll let you know the outcome.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by 2SidestoStories

What is it that truly matters to you? Do you actually know? I would suggest you figure that out before classifying yourself as a failure and then living up to that "standard."

What matters? Well, I suppose that since I so successfully proved I am not a GOOD person, the best I can hope for is to be a USEFUL person. Ya know, a contributing member of society. However don't construe that as a need to be needed. More an evaluation of personal worth through contibution. Yes, that matters. Especially at the office.

[Thinkalot]

I hope you can see your way to listen to the replies by meanon and others and forgive yourself. We all make mistakes! Big and small. Read some books on personal growth, and self-love, and they will give you plenty of suggestions. There are other ways of viewing your life and your actions, that will allow you to move forward. I truly hope you can. A counsellor might help you get there. And yes, you deserve to be free of this.

 

So many people cheat, and recover and forgive themselves and are forgiven. It is life. We are no perfect humans. But we can grow and learn through our actions.

[meanon]

Maybe sometimes you feel as if you have no emotion, feel souless and cold, totally detached - I would imagine you have had to switch off to withstand your current marriage. But those human emotions are still there - you have simply turned them all inwards. If you were detached you would not feel caustic self loathing.

 

my independence was a "need" she wasn't able to provide. Until that point she had been the very air I'd breath. We were that to each other. That may make for great romance novels but it sucks to live it in real life, that is, unless you're both totally codependent. In which case, you surrender all boundaries, all sense of "self."

Exactly - so why not forgive yourself for ending it? The manner may have been wrong but make no mistake - most of the pain will have come from the ending of it.

 

I invision her feeling all warm-n-fuzzy inside with satisfaction if she knew

Really I can't see anyone feeling that unless they were absolutely heartless. A waste of a life for no reason is a tragedy. Life is too precious to waste this way - in any culture.

 

How long is enough time? When does everything suddently become ok? One day? A month? A year? 14 years???

Opinions will vary but I think everyone will agree that 14 years is WAY too much time. I think when you made a fresh start you were right to do so - it was right then, why not now?

 

In the culture I was raised in, facing one's punishment is taking responsibility.

Again - enough punishment already! Responsibility is also about taking ownership for your mistakes. That means understanding why you did it, making sure you never do it again, living with the consequences. You are not living with the consequences. You are seeking annihilation of self. I'm sorry to labour this point but I know it is important to you as little else is - you are evading taking responsibility for your actions by thinking they are atoned by some random, unconnected painful infliction. This makes no sense to me. The only parallels I have heard about are historic religious ones. If you are religious please speak to someone whose views you respect to see if they think your actions are justified from that perspective.

 

I suppose it's just that I came to the conclusion that I was undeserving of the happiness I was persuing in that second marriage, that I was somehow cheating the system by attempting to start over, therefore my punishment was to endure this latest version of domestic hell.

A hell of a turn around from deserving of a fresh start to hoping for death in the not too distant future. This is not logical, surely you can see that? I know something of depression. Have you talked to a professional about this? I'm sorry I don't know what a DSM-IV is, a profile of depression? I would be wary of such things which in my experience are pop psychology, an interesting read but no substitute for a professional assessment. Medication could help you within 2/3 weeks. Even if you don't think it's worth a try, what harm can it do? Please try it.

 

In the unlikely event that I check-in someplace, I'll let you know the outcome.

Let us know either way.

 

Please look after yourself, I so hope you do. You say you want to be a useful person (I think you are also a good person). You could achieve so much. You have wasted too much of your life already, don't waste any more.

[Qgal]

Leave the marriage. Live on your own for awhile. Learn what makes you happy (without distraction). Learn who you are and what you truly want out of life.

 

Many of us have made mistakes in our lives. It is not the end of the world. When we do we need to correct them. We are all human. Mistakes are allowed.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon

I'm sorry I don't know what a DSM-IV is, a profile of depression? I would be wary of such things which in my experience are pop psychology, an interesting read but no substitute for a professional assessment.

 

Oh I see, you reside in the U.K. It's understandible then, that you wouldn't be familiar with the DSM-IV. It's hardly "pop psychology." Instead, DSM-IV stands for Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition, published by the American Psychiatric Association, Washington D.C., 1994, the main diagnostic reference of Mental Health professionals in the United States of America.

 

There, now you can dazzle all your U.K. friends with that bit of U.S. trivia.

[meanon]

I have no need to do so. Thanks.

[broncepen]

Originally posted by Inexpiable

Just to clarify, the discontent came at the very end of the relationship. Things were truely wonderful until that point. The simple fact was that I had outgrown her. With her, I effectively remained the 17 year old I was when we met. Had I stayed, I would never have made the professional or academic accomplishments that I have since leaving. THOSE, I value today far more than that sufficating utopia we shared as a marriage.

 

In a "utopia" marriage you would have accomplished your profession and academic's. Sounds more like your marriage wasn't all that perfect (just like everyone else's). In all relationships, it takes a lot of effort to make it work. Did you ever talk to your ex about what was bothering you or what you wanted to do? Instead of outgrowing your ex, maybe you should have tried growing together.

 

Here is one question for you. If you could go back in time, would you change anything?

 

"Want" is the seed of discontent. The years have taught me that apathy can easily replace happiness, and with no effort at all. Instead, I focus my efforts on utilitarian activities rather than squandering them on such incorporeal maladies as happiness.

 

Well, if you don't want to squander your effort on an incorporeal malady as happiness then why do you squander them on self-contempt, as you put it. Shouldn't apathy also replace self-contempt?

 

You're probably right about the issues, however what purpose would be served by pursuing them at this point?

 

Probably for the same reason your punishing yourself. You've put all this effort on self-contempt, why not deal with the issue(s) that MIGHT be causing you to be this way.

[Bronzepen]

Whoops,

 

typed my name wrong above.

 

Apologies.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by broncepen

In a "utopia" marriage you would have accomplished your profession and academic's.

Within the womblike protection of that cozy marriage, I lacked the maturity (and ability to grow) to even realize I had ambitions beyond that which I had already accomplished in life. It wasn't until I was out on my own and the fruits had come to bear of my total absorbtion into career and simultaneous academia, when I realized my potential and possibilities for a future that far exceeded my modest ambitions.

 

Sounds more like your marriage wasn't all that perfect (just like everyone else's).

I suppose that all depends upon what yardstick you're measuring by, but if my exposure to the marriages of others can be any indicator, I can assure you, this marriage wasn't "just like everyone else's."

 

In all relationships, it takes a lot of effort to make it work. Did you ever talk to your ex about what was bothering you or what you wanted to do?.

Yes. Her response was, "I've done nothing wrong in this marriage, I've been a good wife to you, and you a good husband to me, we have built a beautiful life together and our future stands before us, whatever you're feeling is your responsibility to deal with." How I dealt with it, given who I was at the time, has already been discussed.

 

Instead of outgrowing your ex, maybe you should have tried growing together.

Should'a could'a would'a, makes no difference now.

 

Here is one question for you. If you could go back in time, would you change anything?

Yes. If I could go back with the knowedge of today, I'd return to the moment when she and I first met, then totally avoid that encounter. Then our entire history together would be nonexistant. No scars. No tears. No resentment. No memories. Nada.

 

Well, if you don't want to squander your effort on an incorporeal malady as happiness then why do you squander them on self-contempt, as you put it. Shouldn't apathy also replace self-contempt?

Apathy is how I deal with the life around (external to) me today. Self-contempt is a tool to facilitate self-dicipline, not unlike the rants of a drill-sergeant in military basic traning.

 

Probably for the same reason your punishing yourself. You've put all this effort on self-contempt, why not deal with the issue(s) that MIGHT be causing you to be this way.

It's a conscious choice. The punishment MUST befit the crime.

[NEONINK]

I wasn't going to reply, but thought I should.

 

You know... You are in good company, with many. In fact, tens of millions and counting.

 

An entire faith was created with just forgiveness in mind. Christianity.

An entire dogma of recovery with the 12-step program is maintaining self-forgiveness.

 

So, if it's good enough for tens of millions, forgiveness should be good enough for you.

 

Life goes on. We all make mistakes. If we didn't make mistakes, we would be God. Which we aren't. But if you recognise your mistakes and learn from them, they are NOT mistakes but lessons in life. Find Tony (Anthony) Robbins books and they will help greatly. The Giant Within is a good one. Good luck. You were not the only one that didn't get the manual on how-to-not-screw-up.

[moimeme]

I haven't the patience to read through all these replies since it seems you are fending off any help offered.

 

In my case this is a manifestation of a my philosophy, not a disorder

 

And it would be typical of disordered behaviour to deny the disorder and claim any sort of rationalization to make the disordered behaviour seem 'normal'. It sounds as though you are dissociative. You are also seized with obsessive thinking; this dwelling on your past is clearly that.

 

You claim you remain in an abusive relationship and that you 'deserve' it. That's a common belief of someone who's abused.

 

Buddy, deny it all you want, but you are in trouble. Get yourself to a psychologist and get a full psychological evalulation. Something is going on that can be fixed. You are in major denial that something could be 'wrong' with you. People construct the most elabourate - and illogical - rationalizations to defend themselves against the possibility they may be ill. You're only hurting yourself by doing this.

 

BTW, the DSM-IV is well and fine, but it needs revision. Go to http://www.mentalhelp.net and read the descriptions of the disorders there.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by moimeme

I haven't the patience to read through all these replies since it seems you are fending off any help offered.

 

In my case this is a manifestation of a my philosophy, not a disorder

 

And it would be typical of disordered behaviour to deny the disorder and claim any sort of rationalization to make the disordered behaviour seem 'normal'. It sounds as though you are dissociative. You are also seized with obsessive thinking; this dwelling on your past is clearly that.

I don't recall denying I have issues. However the DSM-IV has very specific prerequisite criteria which must be met before a classification can be made, and I was saying I do NOT meet the needed criterion for SPD (despite similarities in personality traits) or even the definition of Depression by a long-shot. Of course to you, that means I'm in denial.

 

Imagine this scenario, if you will. A guy has F' up royally in his life. He finds himself crushed by that realization. However, in this culture, being a man has certain societal expectations imposed upon him. He must find a way to overcome this weight. Some might crawl into a bottle, but he sees the classic definition of a U.S. hetrosexual male is to be stoic and rigid in resolve; to succeed at all costs; to be the provider. To function successfully, he has to just suck-it-up, get off his wimpy ass and forge ahead. He permits himself no emotion since it's a sign of weakness and serves only to inhibit his efforts. He finds constructive avenues to pursue where he can build upon his successes. He discovers the more firm he is with himself, the more successful he becomes. Outwardly, his persona is charming, outspoken, polite and giving, however his true-self is one of extremely rigid self-imposed rules to maintain the facade which has rewarded him handsomely for over a decade. In hindsight, he now looks at who he once was, in disgust. His old self was an abhorrent sniveling worm. Someone he would never dream of returning to be.

 

So, where exactly would you say his motivation, if any, is to "seek help?" For him, happiness has been proven irrelevent. It seems he found a coping strategy which not only rewards him, but those around him as well. What purpose is served by him seeking therapy? Just so he can learn it's "ok to cry" at the end of some manipulative tear jerker movie or touching human interest story? Oh pullleeeze! It seems far more productive to nurture a healthy dose of cynicism and forge ahead as the classic male while lugging the baggage of my past.