Self-forgiveness

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by NEONINK

I wasn't going to reply, but thought I should.

 

You know... You are in good company, with many. In fact, tens of millions and counting.

 

An entire faith was created with just forgiveness in mind. Christianity.

An entire dogma of recovery with the 12-step program is maintaining self-forgiveness.

 

So, if it's good enough for tens of millions, forgiveness should be good enough for you.

 

Life goes on. We all make mistakes. If we didn't make mistakes, we would be God. Which we aren't. But if you recognise your mistakes and learn from them, they are NOT mistakes but lessons in life. Find Tony (Anthony) Robbins books and they will help greatly. The Giant Within is a good one. Good luck. You were not the only one that didn't get the manual on how-to-not-screw-up.

I'm agnostic at best, but more of a nihilist in truth. Besides, what's it to me that "tens of millions" would rather pass their guilt on to some deity than carry the load themselves? Seems cowardly, not to mention a rotten thing to do to the son of God. "Here Christ, hold this for me will ya... Thanks, what a pal."

 

 

I am not familiar with Robbins work. Perhaps I'll look him up.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by Inexpiable

Within the womblike protection of that cozy marriage, I lacked the maturity (and ability to grow) to even realize I had ambitions beyond that which I had already accomplished in life. It wasn't until I was out on my own and the fruits had come to bear of my total absorbtion into career and simultaneous academia, when I realized my potential and possibilities for a future that far exceeded my modest ambitions.

 

I suppose that all depends upon what yardstick you're measuring by, but if my exposure to the marriages of others can be any indicator, I can assure you, this marriage wasn't "just like everyone else's."

 

Yes. Her response was, "I've done nothing wrong in this marriage, I've been a good wife to you, and you a good husband to me, we have built a beautiful life together and our future stands before us, whatever you're feeling is your responsibility to deal with." How I dealt with it, given who I was at the time, has already been discussed.

 

Should'a could'a would'a, makes no difference now.

 

Yes. If I could go back with the knowedge of today, I'd return to the moment when she and I first met, then totally avoid that encounter. Then our entire history together would be nonexistant. No scars. No tears. No resentment. No memories. Nada.

 

Apathy is how I deal with the life around (external to) me today. Self-contempt is a tool to facilitate self-dicipline, not unlike the rants of a drill-sergeant in military basic traning.

 

It's a conscious choice. The punishment MUST befit the crime.

 

 

Oh but it does make all the diffrence. No marriage is perfect and I got news for you, niether was yours. Doesn't matter what yardstick you use. "Just like everyone else", marriage is not perfect.

 

So you had to leave because you realized your potential and possiblities for a future that far exceeded your modest ambitions. So where are you now?

 

Your in an unhappy marriage but you won't leave this one, because the punishment MUST befit the crime. Where is your ambition now?

 

Sounds more like you failed in your ambitions and have nothing to show for it but use the excuse of being a bad husband from a previouse marraige to justify your penance/failure with your current marriage.

 

Shoulda, coulda, woulda makes all the diffrence. What we SHOULDA done in the past, shows us what we COULD do in the present and teaches us what we WOULD do or not do in the future.

 

The lesson you learned from your past is to punish yourself and live a life of apathy. But is this a solution? Yes it's your choice but the purpose of a punishment is to learn from it. What have you learned? Disconnecting yourself from a problem is not gonna make it go away.

 

Using apathy to deal with problems is just another way of sweeping them under the rug and not facing up to them.

 

Your answer for what you would change if you could was, you would totally avoid the encounter with your first wife.

This is you running away from the problem again. If this marriage was perfect in your eyes, wouldn't you want to try and make it work for you and your ex, based on the knowledge that you now have? Saying that you wouldn't want to meet your ex pretty much shows that you were not happy at all in your marriage. Beginning or end.

 

I know it's hard but try to face your demons. At least seek counseling. You have nothing to lose.

[moimeme]

So, where exactly would you say his motivation, if any, is to "seek help?" For him, happiness has been proven irrelevent

 

It hasn't been proven anything. He's just decided on avoidance as a coping mechanism. Mind you, he has indeed sought help by posting here. Problem is, he's dealing with armchair helpers without professional qualifications. Some folks need help that is more educated/experienced than what they can find here.

 

Were you so content with your lot, you would not have posted here. You don't want to show the chinks - that you are actually human and that you do feel the twinges of pain. But you're failing to convince yourself and so you needed to vent. It's not helping much; you're trying to build the defence back up by parrying everyone's response. It's not really working, though, now is it?

 

What purpose is served by him seeking therapy? Just so he can learn it's "ok to cry" at the end of some manipulative tear jerker movie or touching human interest story?

 

If nothing else, to burst his own stereotype of what therapy is and what it would achieve. He's just making excuses, though. At heart he fears living so he's trying to be a walking zombie. He'd rather quit on life than grieve his mistakes, let them go, and move on - possibly to make more mistakes and suffer more pain.

 

He doesn't believe he had the resources to deal with any more. He's wrong.

[meanon]

DSM-IV has very specific prerequisite criteria which must be met before a classification can be made, and I was saying I do NOT meet the .... definition of Depression by a long-shot. Of course to you, that means I'm in denial.

 

To me it means you lack the insight to diagnose yourself. You may lack the biological indicators but you have the cognitive ones aplenty, at least from the UK classification and I don't believe that there will be that much variation. To me it also means you are using a classic defence mechanism of intellectualisation and rationalisation to refuse help. As always in these cases - the refusal to admit the possibility, the refusal to hope, to try is very telling. What have you to lose?

[moimeme]

Does it really matter if it's depression or Atypical Depression or Dysthemic Disorder or Avoidant Personality Disorder or dissociation any one of the shopping list of issues? For that matter, a competent examiner will also do a differential diagnosis to ensure there is no physical condition contributing to your mental state. There is a reason that people aren't just handed their own copies of the DSM-IV and told to sort out what they have. Diagnosing mental troubles is quite a bit more complex than reading a list of symptoms.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon

To me it means you lack the insight to diagnose yourself.

Oh, I see. So when it spells out that certain behavior MUST manifest itself during adolesence to meet the specific definition, which was NOT the case with me, it's still possible the definition fits, because I "lack the insight." Oh, ok.

 

To me it also means you are using a classic defence mechanism of intellectualisation and rationalisation to refuse help. As always in these cases - the refusal to admit the possibility, the refusal to hope, to try is very telling.

What can I say, I'm an INTJ to the core. We rely upon reductionism, classification, and rationalism to catagorize the world about us. That's who we are. It's what we do. Dang, I forget... What exactly is it that you say I'm denying?

 

 

What have you to lose?

Time, which could be better utilized and $110/hr to have someone keep nagging with, "and how do YOU feel about that?"

[meanon]

LOL - I am having a bad time of it tonight

 

See it as an investment in lengthening your punishment term rather than hoping for early death! Go for medication if you can't stomach the wimpy therapy. Then see how you feel in a few weeks time. Therapy alone would be of little use anyway, in your present state of mind.

[gaia]

Sorry to join this thread so late.

 

After reading your initial post, my feeling was one of absolute horror that anyone could be going through this. Having read all the replies and your intellectual arguments against them, I feel the same way, only frustrated as well!

 

During this thread, you have described yourself as anhedonic, devoid of any spirit, too withdrawn to feel pain, hoping death comes soon, having no hope of ever loving again and having no need of any sexual outlet. That sounds like depression to me, even if you don't meet all the other criteria. From what I know of depression, the level of belief you seem to have in your own inherent badness and obligation to suffer endless punishment suggests a rather severe illness. It is not uncommon to lose insight in this situation.

 

As Moi says, DSM-IV is not designed to be a self-diagnosis aid. Anyway, looking at lists of symptoms, deciding that you don't fit any of the classic illnesses perfectly and concluding therefore that there is nothing wrong with you is flawed. You do not have to fit anything perfectly to be helped.

 

Clearly you are unhappy. You may say this is irrelevant and that is up to you. I don't see what you have to lose by seeing a psychiatrist. If he/she turns round and says "Sorry, you don't fit the DSM-IV profile - I can't help you" then you have your confirmation. If, however, there is help available (which I'm certain is the case) you might be able to live the rest of your life with some fulfilment.

 

I am really sorry if this sounds at all harsh - you are intellectualising this problem to such a degree that I cannot help but respond in kind.

 

Please get an assessment by a professional.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon

Go for medication if you can't stomach the wimpy therapy. Then see how you feel in a few weeks time.Therapy alone would be of little use anyway, in your present state of mind.

Alrighty then... Chlorpromazine for everyone! I'll buy the first round. This discussion of shrinks and med's reminds me of the time I rented an apartment from a psychiatrist. He told me he used the "old school" of treatment, "Acid Therapy." ...as in Lysergic Acid (LSD). He would have patients trippin' on his couch as a form of therapy. I don't know if he is still in practice, but perhaps that's what I need?

[moimeme]

Well, try this on for size. If you are so well-read about psychiatric disorders, look up Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. This is NOT OCD. It's quite different.

[meanon]

My BNF (that's British National Formulary should you wish to impress your American friends with your knowledge of British trivia ) says who cares if you think we are all psychotic at least one of us will get treated

 

The Acid trip sounds more fun I must admit.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by moimeme

Well, try this on for size. If you are so well-read about psychiatric disorders, look up Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. This is NOT OCD. It's quite different.

 

 

Not so much well-read but 6 semesters of Psych, (4 of which were Abnormal-Psych) under my belt from college to meet "humanities" credits. Hey, it was bound to be more interesting than "Baroque Art Appreciation" or 18th Century Lit'. I'm well aware of OCPD, and although I can clearly "see myself" in some of that, I also see some of myself in the description of PTSD as well as the forementioned SPD, and yes, even Depression. I'm sure if I reread all of the disorders, I'd meet 50% or more of the criterion for each. Hell, the first words out of my Ab-Psych prof's mouth was, "...Don't be alarmed, but you're ALL going to see a little of yourself in most of the disorders we will be discussing..." Kinda weakens the credibility of the whole thing. A science in its infancy, at best.

 

Hey, for a far more entertaining read than the boring old DSM, check out these abnormal personality types...

 

http://dbs2000ad.com/narayan/index.php

 

Now THERE'S a shrink who is breaking out of the pack while raising the bar of arrogance to a whole new level!

[moimeme]

Some of his stuff looks interesting, but this obsession with Roloff's death is somewhat disturbing.

[Dixiecron]

Inexpiable, I'm INTJ too, so I know the feeling about trying to out-think the shrink. Ever consider an intuitive method to getting inside yourself?

 

Hate to break up this real intellectual thread and stuff, but in my experience in a past lifetime, a few hits of acid did a lot more healing than years with a shrink (no, the shrink was not for my recent relationship probs, so don't go there).

 

If you don't live down under and can deal with going into yourself and your psyche for real, try some salvia divinorum, consumed in the traditional method (do -not- smoke it). Perfectly legal outside of Australia (for now, at least) and highly recommended by Mexican shamans who use peyote when salvia is not available.

 

Just call me Neal. Cassady, that is...

[uriel]

Inexpiable: You need to get a copy of Steven Carter's Men Who Can't Love. Your experiences are textbook. Hope this helps -- uriel

[gaia]

"...Don't be alarmed, but you're ALL going to see a little of yourself in most of the disorders we will be discussing..." Kinda weakens the credibility of the whole thing.

 

No. Just reflects the diversity of human experience. You do have features of OCPD. This personality type also predisposes to depression.

 

I do wonder why you posted here at all. I assume it was to get advice. The advice (from the overwhelming majority) is "You need help".

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by uriel

Inexpiable: You need to get a copy of Steven Carter's Men Who Can't Love. Your experiences are textbook. Hope this helps -- uriel

 

Hey, now THERE'S something new. A book about men, actually written (ok, co-authored) by a MAN! 'course "Steven Carter" is probably nom de plume for "Barbara Smith" or something.

 

Book Description

Featured on Oprah and Sally Jesse Raphael, this definitive look at the dynamics of male-female communication gets to the heart of the all-too-common phenomenon: women who are ready and willing to commit, and men who back off just as the relationship moves toward the next level. This book can help you:

 

Recognize early warning signs of the commitmentphobic man

Determine the extent of his fears--and his willingness to change

Analyze your own role in the situation

Avoid unnecessary stress and heartache

 

So although this book is obviously targeted toward women readers, you believe I may get some benefit. I'm not sure in what way. Perhaps you're suggesting I abandon all inhibitions and fall deeply in love with my bitch of a wife who becomes meaner and more ugly (picture Larry Flynt in drag) each passing day? Like, Eeeeeuuuuuu! But hey, I'm committed. I've never had, nor would I have an affair. I bring home the bacon. She is not wanting for anything material, which seems to be her only need. What better man to be married to her than me?

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by Inexpiable

...in this culture, being a man has certain societal expectations imposed upon him. He must find a way to overcome this weight. Some might crawl into a bottle, but he sees the classic definition of a U.S. hetrosexual male is to be stoic and rigid in resolve; to succeed at all costs; to be the provider. To function successfully, he has to just suck-it-up, get off his wimpy ass and forge ahead. He permits himself no emotion since it's a sign of weakness and serves only to inhibit his efforts. He finds constructive avenues to pursue where he can build upon his successes. He discovers the more firm he is with himself, the more successful he becomes. Outwardly, his persona is charming, outspoken, polite and giving, however his true-self is one of extremely rigid self-imposed rules to maintain the facade which has rewarded him handsomely for over a decade. In hindsight, he now looks at who he once was, in disgust. His old self was an abhorrent sniveling worm. Someone he would never dream of returning to be.

 

 

Your wife may or may not be miserable without you, but living with someone like you would make ME utterly miserable. If I wasn't a nasty bitch, I'd become one. Your ego is astoundingly huge. And judging by your rude, sarcastic response to the post about a suggested book, you are also a mysoginist. Your manner in answering most of the posts is offensive and patronizing. Yup, you're quite the charmer.

[gaia]

I quickly fell out-of-love with her when she said, "hey this is just WHO I AM," refusing to seek accept responsibility and take remedial steps.

 

Are you familiar with the concept of irony?

[kara]

Hi and FORGIVE me for not being sympathetic, but let's face it: you are telling us it is your CHOICE to suffer, you swiftly meet and neutralize every counter-argument and suggestion brought; well, all I can say is "happy suffering"!!! I can't help but think that you were comfortable and happy (oh, yeah, and I mean " the" happy we all know) this way, at least untill something prompted you to post your story here. Being GOOD means good and fair to all people, INCLUDING yourself, oh well, but you are way too superior to be good to aren't you? It is the OTHERS...

Have you heard of Freud and Nietsche by the way? You really seem to have missed all they had to teach the world, but there is hope: grab a book!

 

I wish you a life, as wonderful as you LIKE (!!!) it to be...

[kara]

Sorry that's Nietzsche, wouldn't want to cause more confusion. Hope you find him easily now

[moimeme]

Inexpiable

 

It's becoming amusing; your evident belief in your superiority and your scorn for people's suggestions are splendidly reinforcing my suspicion that something like OCPD is at play here. OCPD, as I understand it, is a condition that causes the best of therapists despair, because its sufferers are SO convinced they know more than therapists and SO in denial that they could have anything wrong that the prognosis is very bleak.

 

I suspect this is a completely futile discussion. I had hope that the fact of your posting here might have meant that some tiny piece of you understands that you could actually live more happily if you let go of this thing, but your defense mechanisms are still winning the battle. You can choose to override them but it's up to you.

 

If you were as logical and intelligent as you think you are, you would realize that your ideas of what therapy is and what it could do for you are based on zero information other than your own impressions, and therefore are bogus.

[meanon]

So Inexpiable

 

Which is it?

 

Are you the outwardly charming, highly responsible perfectionist seeking to do only good?

 

Or are you the scornful, superior misogynist with .... no sense of irony

 

I suspect you are merely doing what you do best: seeking punishment/isolation/alienation. You do it well

 

You have it down to a fine art, time to try your hand at something new

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by moimeme

InexpiableIt's becoming amusing; your evident belief in your superiority and your scorn for people's suggestions are splendidly reinforcing my suspicion that something like OCPD is at play here. OCPD, as I understand it, is a condition that causes the best of therapists despair, because its sufferers are SO convinced they know more than therapists and SO in denial that they could have anything wrong that the prognosis is very bleak.

If you had met me 30 years ago, you would likely have concluded a diagnosis of APD, as I was quite diffident as a result of a sheltered youth.

If you had met me 18 years ago, you would have come to the diagnosis of, co-dependent with NPD, which worked so well while it lasted in marriage #1.

If you had met me 14 years ago (just following my divorce), you would have concluded the diagnosis of situational clinical depression.

Now having rebelled against my past with every fiber of my soul, invoking every strategy I can come up with, you see me as OCPD.

Situational depression excepted, I don't believe ANY of the other disorders are transitional.

 

Perhaps the famous Gary Larson cartoon would fit here. The one with the patient on the psychiatrist's couch, and the shrink writing "Just Plain Nuts!" on his tablet.

 

If you were as logical and intelligent as you think you are, you would realize that your ideas of what therapy is and what it could do for you are based on zero information other than your own impressions, and therefore are bogus.

Over the years, I've been around many people who have been seeking counciling (always for "depression"). A couple, have done so since puberty. What puzzles me is that there never seems to be a plan for any of them to get off counciling. You select a shrink, they milk you every week or two, but offer no recovery plan. Their goal (admittedly based solely upon my observations) seems to be to establish a dependency in each patient to keep their couches booked and those checks coming in. Where, exactly is their incentive to help anyone?

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon Which is it?

I guess that's for you to judge. Seems everyone else has.