Self-forgiveness

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by kara Have you heard of Freud and Nietsche by the way? You really seem to have missed all they had to teach the world, but there is hope: grab a book!

Of course I've heard of them, however Freud was taught in my college strictly from a historical sense, as most of his stuff is outdated in this day in age. Your reference to Nietzsche, on the other hand puzzles me, as I fail to see his relationship to Freud. Additionally, I gained some of my cynical style of writing, just by reading Nietzsche, and of course, H. L. Mencken. I'm curious. Why Nietzsche?

[meanon]

Enough of the self diagnosis

 

There is a world of difference between the current trend to label the effects of negative life experience as pathology and your symptoms which, I agree with gaia here, suggest a severe illness. Therapy is a red herring at this point, in my view.

 

I guess that's for you to judge. Seems everyone else has.

 

OK I judge this is more of the same - a refusal to accept help, if logic won't work you have other means at your disposal . People treat as they are treated as well you know. But we fall out all the time here on LS, it doesn't last long. The volume of posts on your thread shows both that people care about such a tragic, pointless waste of a life and the frustration of dealing with someone who is being exceptionally illogical whilst claiming to be rational.

 

Even if I am wrong, you may as well be a sane scornful misogynist with no sense of irony. Go and see a psychiatrist and meanwhile try not to add LS to your punishing regime. Hope to see you on the threads, Inexpiable

[Inexpiable]

Ok, folks. I'll acquiesce. How 'bout we just sit down, hug and hold hands while we pass around the Prozac and sing Cum-bay-ah!

[moimeme]

Over the years, I've been around many people who have been seeking counciling (always for "depression"). A couple, have done so since puberty. What puzzles me is that there never seems to be a plan for any of them to get off counciling. You select a shrink, they milk you every week or two, but offer no recovery plan. Their goal (admittedly based solely upon my observations) seems to be to establish a dependency in each patient to keep their couches booked and those checks coming in. Where, exactly is their incentive to help anyone?

 

Again, cliché after cliché. There are numerous types of therapy and therapists. You are talking about Freudian psychoanalysis. That can go on for years (just ask Woody Allen). LOTS of therapists use other methods. Besides, you yourself, having studied psych SO much, should understand that counselling (the proper spelling, btw) alone will not help most disorders. Meds are required in many cases. The meds unstick the neurotransmitters that are messed up. Then the individual can understand and follow therapeutic recommendations.

 

Maybe you should read some of the science around things like "depression" since you seem to scoff at it as a diagnosis. Science has been advancing by leaps and bounds in determining the role of our biochemicals in causing these conditions - and in treating them. But, hey, why learn about this when you think you already know everything there is to know about psychiatry and neuropsychiatry?

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by Inexpiable

Ok, folks. I'll acquiesce. How 'bout we just sit down, hug and hold hands while we pass around the Prozac and sing Cum-bay-ah!

 

 

Again with the sarcasm and patronization. Yes, that's what everyone was suggesting - hugging, singing, and maybe even making s'mores!

[meanon]

Ok, folks. I'll acquiesce

LOL At last! Not that we don't trust you but tell us when you've been

 

[color=red]Meanon singing.... [/color]

[color=blue]

Cum By Yah....[/color]

[SoleMate]

This poster is going over familiar ground and is very resistant to advice. Granted. But has everyone considered:

 

* This is the FIRST time in his LIFE that he has brought these issues up with anyone

 

* He is in a lot of pain

 

* He has some long-established ideas about how his life must be

 

Given everything, I want to congratulate the poster on his ability to open up and discuss his problems, which admittedly are severe. Even typing them down, and responding to challenges here, has taken you further than you've been before. Stay on this path, and I see some light for you, and a possibility of not only having a happy life, but feeling like you deserve it as well.

[meanon]

I want to congratulate the poster on his ability to open up and discuss his problems

 

Me too, Inexpiable.

[kara]

Of course I've heard of them, however Freud was taught in my college strictly from a historical sense, as most of his stuff is outdated in this day in age. Your reference to Nietzsche, on the other hand puzzles me, as I fail to see his relationship to Freud. Additionally, I gained some of my cynical style of writing, just by reading Nietzsche, and of course, H. L. Mencken. I'm curious. Why Nietzsche?

 

Because he doesn't believe in saints and more, and you come across as religious (wanting to be GOOD, as you put it in one of your previous posts). quote:Originally posted by Inexpiable

Ok, folks. I'll acquiesce. How 'bout we just sit down, hug and hold hands while we pass around the Prozac and sing Cum-bay-ah!

 

 

Again with the sarcasm and patronization. Yes, that's what everyone was suggesting - hugging, singing, and maybe even making s'mores!

I kind of think the sarcasm here is not meant to patronize but to vent frustration and anger and this seems to be exactly this poster's problem, he needs a mirror for his own feelings. Mr.Inexpiable, do correct me if I am wrong please. The fact that you make fellow posters angry indicates there is a lot of supressed anger somewhere, try screaming in an open field or read B.Shaw's comments on Nietzsche, I did both and felt absolutely refreshed!!!

Science has been advancing by leaps and bounds in determining the role of our biochemicals in causing these conditions - and in treating them.

Agree, moimeme. Regardless of that though, why abadon the putative "alleviation", due to a lack of putative "cure?

Karali

[NEONINK]

I'm curious if Agnositics or Athesiests ever come to total fulfillment without the spirituality of man? i.e. inner peace.

 

Sure, we may have the physical, emotional, and intellectual qualitities, but wouldn't man always be yearning for something else missing?

 

Of course. Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl

Imagine everything stripped away from you and the most inhumane treatment given the Holocaust victims, and still he finds meaning in the mundane, everyday occurrance of a rising sun or a crumb of discovered bread.

 

I think you are making life much harder than it has to be, but good luck in your search. I just hope to don't exclude spirituality because of ignorant religious people. God knows they are out there, and some of the most sorry people you could ever meet. In fact, I dare say with a criminal at least I know the quality I'm looking at. But with the "well meaning" subtle thumper they use trickery to put you at ease, then steal your vitality. It almost drove me from my center.

 

Then if you really want to expound on those ideas.... read anything by Emmet Fox, especially the Seven Day Mental Diet which is free by searching on the internet.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by NEONINK I'm curious if Agnositics or Athesiests ever come to total fulfillment without the spirituality of man? i.e. inner peace.

I don't see why not. Excluding religious superstition from one's thought process frees the mind for its quest of TRUE knowledge. Peace comes with the surrendering of human arrogance and the acceptance of our infinitesimal relevance in the cosmos.

 

Sure, we may have the physical, emotional, and intellectual qualitities, but wouldn't man always be yearning for something else missing?

Sure, a thirst for knowedge. A quest for the TRUTH. Man's primative fabrication of a divinity to fill-in-the-blanks of this knowledge, is merely an unfortunate distraction.

 

I just hope to don't exclude spirituality because of ignorant religious people.

No, I don't. I exclude spirituality because it sanctifies ignorance.

[moimeme]

No, I don't. I exclude spirituality because it sanctifies ignorance.

 

Frankly, I am SICK TO DEATH of people who think they are intellectually superior because they don't believe in things spiritual. Somehow, they also think this gives them license to be abusive and ignorant towards people who do. Which, of course, negates their claims of being superior, intellectually or otherwise.

[kara]

It was GOOD first, and now it's TRUTH? What's next, dying for other's sins?

Halleluja then.

[meanon]

No, I don't. I exclude spirituality because it sanctifies ignorance

 

This was my view in my early 20s. I am agnostic. I know of people, atheists/agnostics, who emigrated to foreign cultures and struggled to adjust to cultures in which pursuit of materialism was elevated to the only legitimate form of human endeavour. Everything can be reduced to biology, I believe, but we are genetically predisposed towards certain personality types and those who have a more intuitive method of relating to the world are often spot on. They know human nature in a way that science has yet to fathom.

 

I think spiritualism is a fairly deep human need for many people, filled in many different ways. Some are counter logical and others aren't. Most enhance the human condition at an individual (rather than societal) level.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by kara

It was GOOD first, and now it's TRUTH? What's next, dying for other's sins?

Halleluja then.

I don't suppose, given your admirable dedication and unquestionable idolization of Nietzsche (like that of any good sophomoric cultist enamored by boundless cynical nihilism) you've considered the fact that Nietzsche only slashed-n-burned what was and had always been? His strength and contribution was in his ability to challenge the conventional and accepted wisdom of the time. However there is where he left off. In my admittedly limited readings of his works, that's ALL he ever did. Not unlike the chronic dissident who attends meetings (or TROLL in internet forums) soley to stir the pot of discontent while completely failing to offer viable alternatives. I believe you do yourself a disservice by not diversifying your philosophers. Else, there's little difference between you and any other religious zealot on the street.

 

As for your inane statement above.... Obviously you have been unable to keep up with the conversation.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by meanon I think spiritualism is a fairly deep human need for many people, filled in many different ways. Some are counter logical and others aren't. Most enhance the human condition at an individual (rather than societal) level.

Agreed, and for that same reason, I say "to each his own." I'm NOT on a pulpit here. Listen, if Jahova/Christ/Allah/Budda/Gaia/Ra/whoever gets you through the day, I say, "hey, whatever works for you." My statement was just a direct response to a query on the source of my own nonspirituality.

[kara]

admirable dedication and unquestionable idolization of Nietzsche

A) Assumption with no evidence and without even considering you are assuming: am I the one not questioning really? Nothing is unquestionable, including and especially your GOOD and TRUTH and that was my whole point.

 

I believe you do yourself a disservice by not diversifying your philosophers. Else, there's little difference between you and any other religious zealot on the street.

B)I agree. Have you looked into what Shaw had to say about Nietzsche?

 

As for your inane statement above.... Obviously you have been unable to keep up with the conversation.

C) Exactly. I have been following your monologue instead.

 

D) This was not supposed to turn into "the battle of the philosophers". I thought you posted your story to find something to help you cope with your misery, but I assumed didn't I?

 

viable alternatives.

E) You make me smile by saying this. You have proven to be a very swift killer of any alternative brought up so far here, yet you haven't found an alternative yourself. I can see my mistake now, you weren't looking, were you? Did we all just assume you did and helped you feel good by being less-than-sharp about this? I hopeit was at least this, otherwise we all wasted our times.

 

F) No need to be defensive, I am not trying to help you. I am TROLLING this just to shine a ray of SKEPTICISM onto what seems to be a rigid dedication: your life!

 

Thanks for the thought tennis as well. Do you know the score?

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by kara

I am TROLLING this just to shine a ray of SKEPTICISM onto what seems to be a rigid dedication: your life!

Trolling, huh? I see. So I'll ignore the rest of your post as well as those in the future. BTW, TROLLING is typical behavior of those afflicted with Antisocial Personality Disorder, but hey I'm not the resident expert. Only moimeme can make a true definitive diagnosis.

[kara]

[moimeme]

Yup. My shingle's right up there. Mind you, underneath 'armchair advisor', it says 'you tell me your problem, I'll suggest a cause for you to investigate'. But hey, why should you pay attention to detail when you amuse yourself so much more by pretending to misunderstand in order to be provocative.

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by moimeme Yup. My shingle's right up there. Mind you, underneath 'armchair advisor', it says 'you tell me your problem, I'll suggest a cause for you to investigate'.

Good sport! Dang, it's gettin' hard not to like you.

[uriel]

Yes, _Men Who Can't Love_ is directed toward women, although you might find it incidentally enlightening. _Getting to Commitment_ is directed toward men who want to get over the same issues from their angle. I didn't think that was a direction in which you'd choose to go.

 

Nice knee-jerk gendered assumption about my agenda in recommending this, btw. Friendly fellow, aren't you? Bit of a misogynist?

 

I frankly don't care if you stay with your wife or not, except that, in hearing how you characterize her, I can't imagine why you do. All this roundabout analysis forestalls action. Divorce seems the better alternative to this unhealthy dynamic. She's a materialist who doesn't love you. You've become savage and don't love her. Get out.

 

BTW, just in case you don't want to give up on the analytical round, I've got you pegged as a cerebral narcissist. Getting off on all this negative attention making you and your problem seem special, right? Trouncing everyone as a fool boosting your wavering ego? Your kind is actually quite common. Did that sting? If so, you've passed the first diagnostic test.

 

You might try Sam Vaknin's _Malignant Self-Love_, including web discussion by him. You'll find a like mind at work -- although a bit more advanced in his thinking on these matters than you've demonstrated thus far. Another sting? That's it, then. Diagnostic test #2, asked and answered.

 

-- uriel

[Inexpiable]

Originally posted by uriel

Nice knee-jerk gendered assumption about my agenda in recommending this, btw.

Whoa... I made no such assumption about your agenda. For that matter I never assumed you even had one. Perhaps you can share with us all what your agenda is and why exactly, you even have one.

 

Friendly fellow, aren't you?

We try.

 

Bit of a misogynist?

Very much the contrary, actually. I'm at a loss on what basis you come to that conclusion. Perhaps it was my remark implying the arrogance of women authors who believe they have a clearer vision into the male psyche than men do.

 

She's a materialist who doesn't love you. You've become savage and don't love her.

A fair assessment, except for the "savage" label. I'm far too even-tempered to be called that.

 

Get out.

Yeah, I suppose I could do that. But first, let me weigh the pros/cons. If I stay, I have only to tune out her ceaseless tyrades and accept them for what they are. On the other hand, if I divorce her, she gets to clean me out and tap my wages (like my first wife did until she remarried) for life, while I freeze to death on a park bench. Gee, let me think...

 

BTW, just in case you don't want to give up on the analytical round, I've got you pegged as a cerebral narcissist.

Amateur! Moimeme, you are NOT. I meet even LESS of those diagnostic criteria than that of many other disorders. That's the funny thing about PD symptoms, everyone PD-free or otherwise, still display at least SOME symptoms of each.

 

You might try Sam Vaknin's _Malignant Self-Love_, including web discussion by him. You'll find a like mind at work -- although a bit more advanced in his thinking on these matters than you've demonstrated thus far. Another sting?

Sting? Of course not. If his "his thinking on these matters" is "more advanced" than mine, it only supports my position that your assumption-based arm-chair diagnosis of me is not applicable. The only way one could possibly pigeon-hole me into any flavor of narcissism is to carefully select certain traits while conveniently ignoring those which discredit such a position. Nice try, though.

[moimeme]

Moimeme, you are NOT

 

There's only one of yrs. truly.

 

quote:Originally posted by moimeme Yup. My shingle's right up there. Mind you, underneath 'armchair advisor', it says 'you tell me your problem, I'll suggest a cause for you to investigate'.

 

Good sport! Dang, it's gettin' hard not to like you.

 

I'm eminently likeable. I just don't put up with BS and when I see people trying to feed me some, I put a stop to it rapidly. There are few pretensions that I don't enjoy poking. Self-deception isn't fun to have at because its victim is often unaware, but it quickly becomes clear who's exhibiting which. If it's not self-deception, then I'm game for a round of attack, parry, and riposte.

[gaia]

Yeah, I suppose I could do that. But first, let me weigh the pros/cons. If I stay, I have only to tune out her ceaseless tyrades and accept them for what they are. On the other hand, if I divorce her, she gets to clean me out and tap my wages (like my first wife did until she remarried) for life, while I freeze to death on a park bench. Gee, let me think...

 

 

So, you're not staying to punish yourself then? You're staying because it's the lesser of two evils. I think most of us can relate to this a bit better (esp Samson )

 

Don't wish to get involved in the diagnostic debate really, but I would think that 12 years of functioning normally within a stable relationship with no apparent social difficulties would pretty much rule out any kind of personality disorder.