homosexuality vs. incest vs. beastiality,polygamy,etc.

[goingstrong]

 

The point still remains valid. When laws or opinion are against incest, one TYPE of relationship is denied. When laws or opinion are against polygamy/polyamory, one type of relationship is denied. When laws or opinion are against homosexuality (gay couples), ALL types of relationships are denied.

 

 

Your's is a non-sequitur argument. You are seeing what you want to see, and hearing what you want to hear and disregarding the rest. You can have same gender poly and incest relationships as well.

[creighton0123]

If a person believes that having children, and (also importantly) raising them with their natural father and mother in the best possible environment, is a great good and an extremely important part of any human's life, then the thing that homosexuality has in common with the other practices is that it tends to prevent that by substituting a relationship that has the potential to produce children in a good environment with one that cannot.

 

Thank you for the respectful post. To your original point (the entire discussion in general), bringing this debate up may be considered akin to discussing whether women should really have the right to vote, or whether people of color should really be segregated. The comparison of gay couples to incest, pedophilia, bestiality, etc. etc. (sometimes even necrophilia) is a topic that is most often used by hate groups. All of these things, as mentioned, have nothing to do with sexual orientation. I fail to see the reason for their comparison.

 

I agree with you on one thing: As both a gay man and an adopted man, a child should, whenever possible, be raised by his or her biological mother and father.

 

However, reality teaches us that this is not the case. With children in foster care and with orphanages throughout the world believing that gay couples should not, under any circumstances raise children, when we're more than capable causes a great deal of harm to the children that would otherwise grow up and be released into society believing themselves to be unwanted.

 

Allowing gay couples to foster and adopt children does not in any way, shape, or form change the number of children who are being born into good homes by their biological parents.

 

You said "substituting a relationship that has the potential to produce children in a good environment with one that cannot".

 

You're confusing "ideal" and "good", implying that children being raised by gay couples are not in a "good" environment. As research has shown, children of gay couples when compared to children of straight couples fair no better or worse in the level of success and happiness of the child. I think people overestimate what children need to be happy and successful. A child who is adopted by gay parents, especially at a young age, may wonder about his or her biological parents, but that is no different than a child adopted by straight parents. Sexual orientation, in this situation, is irrelevant.

[loverofloveandstuff]

It's only a hate topic if you are an incestaphobe and homosexual, thus do not want to be compared to them as you feel you are clearly superior. Otherwise it's nothing of the sort.

 

Just sayin'

[112233]

I think there is a middle ground between forcing someone and doing nothing. It involves doing things like trying to get through to the other person that you think they are hurting themselves.

 

It's also something best done on a personal level. I have no big objection to reasonable education but it's best funded by, for instance the people using the substance in question. Tax the MJ and fund whatever programs the addicts need with the tax.

[112233]

It's only a hate topic if you are an incestaphobe and homosexual, thus do not want to be compared to them as you feel you are clearly superior. Otherwise it's nothing of the sort.

 

Just sayin'

 

Point set match?

 

I'm honestly a bit surprised how many gays are so intolerant of others in this thread but I guess it's not that unusual, should have expected it.

[creighton0123]

Point set match?

 

I'm honestly a bit surprised how many gays are so intolerant of others in this thread but I guess it's not that unusual, should have expected it.

 

This is not about being intolerant at all. It is just saddening knowing that the relationship I have with the most important person in my life (my partner) is constantly being compared to incest, bestiality, pedophilia, polygamy, necrophilia, etc. etc. etc.

 

The vast majority of heterosexual men and women have no idea what it's like having their lives and their relationships constantly exposed to study, discussion, vitriol, analysis, opinion, etc. etc. etc.

 

You then say something like "Point set match?" For you to treat this as a game is extremely belittling and demeaning.

 

Both my boyfriend and I live in a nation where it is acceptable for people to treat us with a significant amount of disregard. Up until 2003, a number of states had laws on their books that could have us both arrested and thrown in jail just for being in a relationship. Even today, it is perfectly legal for a landlord to kick us out of a rental property or an employer to fire us from our jobs simply for how we love.

 

In all but six states, we are left without full rights, benefits, protections, and responsibilities essential for building a strong household. The federal government treats us as nothing more than glorified roommates. Gay couples that meet abroad cannot sponsor their partners to bring them here.

 

Gay youth are often exposed to a significant amount of harassment and vitriol by parents, school faculty, other students, and society as a whole, often to the point of depression and sometimes driven to suicide.

 

LGBT men and women in America are more often the recipients of social hostility today than any other group. When we take any action to promote fair and equal treatment, this hostility increases.

 

I'm not calling anyone here homophobic or bigoted. In fact, the conversation so far has been extremely respectful. Instead, I am expressing disdain that conversations such as these, that reduces who and how I love to a comparison with bestiality is so very demeaning.

 

I don't expect you to understand, but try stepping in my shoes and seeing the world through my eyes. Pretend for a second that you're doing something so simple as walking down the street holding the hand of the person you love only to have people scream "FAGGOTS!" at you. Pretend that you are walking back to your car after a night out constantly looking over your shoulder for fear that you will be beaten or even killed by people who simply believe you're gay (I've been there, believe me). Pretend that every time you introduce an acquaintance to the person you love, you're told to "stop flaunting your immoral lifestyle". Pretend that you are constantly and consistently reduced to academic discussions on morality. Pretend, just for a second, that the relationship you have with the person you love most in the world is constantly reduced to liberal politics, recommendations for conversion therapy, insult, pseudo-religious hostility, and vitriol....

 

As I said earlier, discussions like these are par-for-par the same discussions that were had when it came down to things like abolition, establishment of integration, womens' right to vote, and others.

 

Men and women despite sexual orientation can avoid polygamous relationships (I don't really see the harm in mature, adult, open relationships). They can avoid incestuous relationships. They can avoid the appeal of having sex with animals. They can avoid the appeal of having sex with corpses. These are all types of relationships people have.

 

A gay person, on the other hand, cannot avoid the core of their attraction.

 

-RJ

[sb129]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologise if this repeats what others may have said.

 

Regarding bestiality- as someone else said, there is only one consenting party, so I consider it to be a form of animal abuse.

 

Incest- if one of the parties is non consensual, then again, I think it is wrong and abusive.

I am aware that there are many couples out there who happen to be related to eachother, and while it doesn't float my boat, if nobody is being harmed by the relationship, then I don't particularly care what they get up to.

 

Gay marriage/ adoption- the "ideal" is that Timmy and Sally live with Mummy and Daddy and everyone lives happily ever after.

 

However that "ideal" is impossible for millions of children, and if Daddy and Daddy (what happens in that case, who gets called Daddy?) can provide a loving environment for children to grow and thrive, then I think they should go for it.

[112233]

This is not about being intolerant at all. It is just saddening knowing that the relationship I have with the most important person in my life (my partner) is constantly being compared to incest ....

 

Yeah yeah blah blah. News flash; some of the cousins who are happily together out there in the world are probably disgusted to be compared to a couple homosexuals. If you find that offensive, please reflect that your disgust probably hurts them the same way. I don't really care what you do but you're casting the same sort of aspersions on someone else most important relationship too.

 

Feels really neat I bet.

 

The rest of your post is off topic and/or masturbatory so I'm ignoring it.

[creighton0123]

Yeah yeah blah blah. News flash; some of the cousins who are happily together out there in the world are probably disgusted to be compared to a couple homosexuals. If you find that offensive, please reflect that your disgust probably hurts them the same way. I don't really care what you do but you're casting the same sort of aspersions on someone else most important relationship too.

 

Feels really neat I bet.

 

The rest of your post is off topic and/or masturbatory so I'm ignoring it.

 

Nah. I never said I was disgusted by romantic couples who are related in some way, shape, or form. However, that does not change the fact that a comparison of innate sexual orientation to unrelated relationship compositions is a valid comparison.

 

You implied disgust. I pointed out the implications of this comparison in general. Things that transcend sexual orientation have no place being compared to sexual orientation, unless you're also willing to compare straight couples to these things as well.

 

You're comparing an innate minority to any fetishism or composition of relationships outside of sexual orientation is an invalid comparison.

 

"Yeah yeah blah blah."

 

Until this point, most in this forum have been very respectful and courteous. Haven't yet encountered any responses that have been dismissive. I applaud you...

[112233]

You're comparing an innate minority to any fetishism or composition of relationships outside of sexual orientation is an invalid comparison.

 

Maybe the gay guys you dated or have available to date are interchangeable cogs to you but I bet, given the bull**** they have to wade through, that any cousins or similar people in a loving relationship don't feel nearly that dismissive of their partner. If that were true I'm sure they wouldn't pursue such a painful course of action.

[sb129]

News flash; some of the cousins who are happily together out there in the world are probably disgusted to be compared to a couple homosexuals.

 

I had to laugh at this- can you imagine the fundamentalist mormons who regularly commit paedophilia and incest in the name of "god" taking that comparison lightly?

 

Wash your mouth out boy!

 

Creighton- I have no problem with homosexuality per se, and its not fair for you to get persecuted for your sexual orientation.

 

However, the world isn't fair, and people all over the world get persecuted for many things, and have done for hundreds of years.

 

Be thankful that you aren't being burned at the stake, and also be thankful that you DO have a loving relationship, which is more than I can say for many of the people on this board.

 

You may need to consider growing a thicker skin.

[112233]

 

I had to laugh at this- can you imagine the fundamentalist mormons who regularly commit paedophilia and incest in the name of "god" taking that comparison lightly?

 

Wash your mouth out boy!

 

No kidding, and ... I'm here all week unless I get banned, tip your server.

[creighton0123]

 

Be thankful that you aren't being burned at the stake, and also be thankful that you DO have a loving relationship, which is more than I can say for many of the people on this board.

 

You may need to consider growing a thicker skin.

 

You're correct. As of two weeks ago, the UN failed to add sexual orientation and gender identity to their universal human rights clauses. This allowed current member nations to continue persecuting gay men and women. Still, persecution is more radical in the middle east, especially in Iraq and Iran. In Iraq, radicals who capture gay men are killing them in a horribly disgusting and painful manner (super glue to the anus and force-fed laxatives). In Iran, they're hanging gay men left and right in the public square.

 

Either way, this isn't about growing a thicker skin. Everything I do regarding my pursuit of full civil equality, involving my activity in LGBT activist organizations, is done to ensure that nothing should happen to my partner if anything bad should happen to me.

 

You'd be surprised how thick my skin is. :-D A few years ago, three punks tried to assault me because I was gay. Having taken Tae Kwon Do for 3 years, I got away with just a cut on my forehead. They didn't get away so lucky.

 

Just know this: Any time ANYONE tries to reduce the relationship between me and the man I love to a hick getting his kicks on with a farm animal, I will fight back. I want to transform this world into one where my partner (my greatest love) isn't exposed to such ignorant comparisons. I do this only to protect him, not me.

 

You have all been very respectful and polite. I thank you for that from the bottom of my heart :-)

[goingstrong]

Just know this: Any time ANYONE tries to reduce the relationship between me and the man I love to a hick getting his kicks on with a farm animal, I will fight back. I want to transform this world into one where my partner (my greatest love) isn't exposed to such ignorant comparisons.

 

Dude, how many times do people have to explain to you that this is a debate about two consenting adults and not bestiality and pedophilia?? Again, you hear only what you want to hear.

 

I firmly believe that you're intolerant and phobic of poly/incest relationships just so you do not have to carry them into your human rights struggle, but in the end, you're just as intolerant of them as other people are of homosexuality. Point, set, match..next.

[sb129]

Where do you live?

 

Hey- I understand what you are saying re: comparing homosexuality to bestiality. Its a stretch!

 

The point others are making is that to some people, its ALL lumped together in the "naughty/bad/distasteful" box. Those people (however ill informed/obtuse they are) are still entitled to their opinion, and I personally wouldn't bother trying to change their minds too much.

 

Good move, knowing TKD.

[goingstrong]

You'd be surprised how thick my skin is. :-D A few years ago, three punks tried to assault me because I was gay. Having taken Tae Kwon Do for 3 years, I got away with just a cut on my forehead. They didn't get away so lucky.

 

 

Yea, you're really enlightened. It is one thing to defend yourself, and another to brag about it. The only hick here is...you get the point.

 

Besides, I think the person challenging you meant verbally and emotionally.

Edited December 19, 2010 by goingstrong

[112233]

I firmly believe that you're intolerant and phobic of poly/incest relationships just so you do not have to carry them into your human rights struggle, but in the end, you're just as intolerant of them as other people are of homosexuality. Point, set, match..next.

 

I just thought him inattentive but you're right, he notices details when he wants to. Wouldn't it be inconvenient if someone besides his circle got on the we want our rights bandwagon. Disaster.

[creighton0123]

Dude, how many times do people have to explain to you that this is a debate about two consenting adults and not bestiality and pedophilia?? Again, you hear only what you want to hear.

 

I firmly believe that you're intolerant and phobic of poly/incest relationships just so you do not have to carry them into your human rights struggle, but in the end, you're just as intolerant of them as other people are of homosexuality. Point, set, match..next.

 

Uhh... the title of the thread includes bestiality....

 

I am neither intolerant or phobic about polygamous relationships. I know a few men and women in polygamous/polyamourous relationships and they are happy as happy can be. I do recognize, however, the differences between sexual orientation and relationship composition. Logically and rationally, the two should not be compared.

 

Intolerance against incest, for example, is not the same as intolerance against minority sexual orientations. Treating this as a debate and/or game is very demeaning and insulting. To continue treating this topic as a game by saying things like "Point, set, match.. next" shows that you really do not understand.... :-(

[creighton0123]

Where do you live?

 

Hey- I understand what you are saying re: comparing homosexuality to bestiality. Its a stretch!

 

The point others are making is that to some people, its ALL lumped together in the "naughty/bad/distasteful" box. Those people (however ill informed/obtuse they are) are still entitled to their opinion, and I personally wouldn't bother trying to change their minds too much.

 

I currently live in Boston. I was attacked in upstate NY, though. One of my attackers called me a year later to apologize and to come out, letting me know that his hostility towards me was a manifestation of his hostility towards himself.

 

It is rational to recognize that if one is going to lump same gender couples in the naughty/bad/distatesful box, they must also do the same for straight couples.

 

It isn't rocket science, as you understand, to point out the difference between sexual orientation and relationship composition. One can avoid an incestuous relationship, a polygamous relationship, or a sexual attraction to animals. For the first two, those involve relationship compositions of the gender you're attracted to. Gay or straight, all people can be in a relationship with someone they're related to or multiple people.

 

However, to hold the same opinion for gay couples is to say that all valid relationships they are in are immoral or anti-ethical, as though relationships with people of the opposite gender for gay men and women are viable.

 

I'm afraid they can never understand how demeaning and hurtful it is to constantly be the topic of discussion or to have what is otherwise the most important aspect of one's life (the person he or she loves) reduced to a topic of politics or comparison to other things. Most heterosexual men and women just don't understand.

 

It would be like me or any other Caucasian, middle class person pretending to understand problems and conflict faced by racial minorities. Sure, we might be able to observe what they're going through, but we can never truly understand.

 

Good move, knowing TKD.

 

At first I only took TKD for exercise and self-improvement. It was costly, but fun. After being attacked, I began to realize that it was a good idea :-)

[creighton0123]

Yea, you're really enlightened. It is one thing to defend yourself, and another to brag about it. The only hick here is...you get the point.

 

Besides, I think the person challenging you meant verbally and emotionally.

 

You inferred bragging. It wasn't my intention to. I was merely pointing out that it is very difficult and often violent for LGBT men and women to be honest about themselves in many parts of this country. Every gay man and women should be able to defend themselves.

[loverofloveandstuff]

Uhh... the title of the thread includes bestiality....

 

I am neither intolerant or phobic about polygamous relationships. I know a few men and women in polygamous/polyamourous relationships and they are happy as happy can be. I do recognize, however, the differences between sexual orientation and relationship composition. Logically and rationally, the two should not be compared.

 

Intolerance against incest, for example, is not the same as intolerance against minority sexual orientations. Treating this as a debate and/or game is very demeaning and insulting. To continue treating this topic as a game by saying things like "Point, set, match.. next" shows that you really do not understand.... :-(

 

we established later on that this is a debate about homosexuality and incest. I said that. Debate whatever you want but that has been said several times throughout the thread.

[loverofloveandstuff]

Uhh... the title of the thread includes bestiality....

 

I am neither intolerant or phobic about polygamous relationships. I know a few men and women in polygamous/polyamourous relationships and they are happy as happy can be. I do recognize, however, the differences between sexual orientation and relationship composition. Logically and rationally, the two should not be compared.

 

Intolerance against incest, for example, is not the same as intolerance against minority sexual orientations. Treating this as a debate and/or game is very demeaning and insulting. To continue treating this topic as a game by saying things like "Point, set, match.. next" shows that you really do not understand.... :-(

 

You obviously hold a strong emotional bias. This is a valid debate whether you like it or not. It's only a 'hate' debate in your eyes because you hate incest.

[creighton0123]

Nah.

 

While my personal opinion is that incest is troublesome due to the replacement of a familial relationship with a sexual relationship, since it doesn't impact me personally in any valid way, shape, or form, I hold little to no opinion of weight.

 

However, what I do recognize is that discussions such as these are fundamentally demeaning and devaluing in that they present invalid comparisons that are most often misused by the religious right as justification.

 

I would have the very same opinion if one were to compare straight couples who cannot conceive despite desire to couples where one partner is post-menopausal.

 

But please, pretend that you understand. Just pretend that there is a significant number of people out there who take what is otherwise your personal relationship with someone you love and have it compared to someone having sex with an animal or someone wanting to marry an inanimate object....

 

Discussions like these are extremely sensitive. Hell, I would be equally as upset if I were someone in a polyamorous relationship compared to bestiality.

[creighton0123]

we established later on that this is a debate about homosexuality and incest. I said that. Debate whatever you want but that has been said several times throughout the thread.

 

Yes, and I established very clearly that the two are fundamentally invalid comparisons. Incestuous relationships transcend sexual orientation. The comparison of the two is fundamentally invalid.

 

Incest has little to do with innate sexual orientation. To say an unrelated homosexual couple is like an incestuous couple must require that one can say an unrelated heterosexual couple is like an incestuous couple. The comparison is horribly flawed.

[loverofloveandstuff]

Nah.

 

While my personal opinion is that incest is troublesome due to the replacement of a familial relationship with a sexual relationship, since it doesn't impact me personally in any valid way, shape, or form, I hold little to no opinion of weight.

 

However, what I do recognize is that discussions such as these are fundamentally demeaning and devaluing in that they present invalid comparisons that are most often misused by the religious right as justification.

 

I would have the very same opinion if one were to compare straight couples who cannot conceive despite desire to couples where one partner is post-menopausal.

 

But please, pretend that you understand. Just pretend that there is a significant number of people out there who take what is otherwise your personal relationship with someone you love and have it compared to someone having sex with an animal or someone wanting to marry an inanimate object....

 

Discussions like these are extremely sensitive. Hell, I would be equally as upset if I were someone in a polyamorous relationship compared to bestiality.

 

Can we please keep it on topic. Homosexuality and Incest, two consenting adults. Beastiality was knocked from the discussion on the first page.

Who exactly is this discussion demeaning to?