klind1970 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 What is everyones view on the bible saying that divorce is wrong and you will go to hell? If your religous is it better to believe this and stay in a marriage or be miserable for the rest of your life because your mate has told you that they will never have feelings of love for you again...... Just thought I would throw this topic of discussion out there!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
befuddled11 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I was never aware that it indicated anywhere in the Bible that people who divorce will go to Hell. Can you post which scriptures say this? I surely don't believe this is the case. Never have, never will. God is a loving, merciful God and he looks at our hearts.....and if we are miserable in our marriage and have done all we can to work on it and save it, I don't believe he expects us to stay miserable. I think this mindset is what caused people of past generations, mainly women, to stay in horrid marriages.....married to alcoholics, abusers, etc......all because they felt it was their lot in life to remain, no matter what. I've been divorced for nearly 10 yrs. I was married to a cheater and an abuser. Surprisingly, it was my priest who encouraged me to get out (which blew my mind).....when I'd fully expected him to tell me I should stay no matter what. In my case, God was very instrumental in giving me the strength and courage to make the final step to "leave"..after a year of being separated.....and being stalked and threatened by my husband at the time (I'd had him charged w/ assault and unlawful confinement, and he didn't take that too well). I gave it a full year of praying and crying and begging God to change his heart and inspire him to get his head out of his butt and get the help he needed.......but that wasn't even close to the case. Marriage takes 2 and I was trying all alone. He was too busy sleeping with half of northern Alberta and British Columbia. I had been raised to believe that marriage was for life, so it was a very very hard decision for me to leave him, let alone file for divorce. But many things happened in my life, I attribute them directly to God and having a lot of friends and family praying for me, and that's how I ended up moving away to start all over. I don't believe for a minute that God expected me to stay there and be abused and betrayed. However.......I believe he had a large lesson for me to learn from that.........and that lesson was: Never make the same mistake again of marrying someone I know in my heart God wouldn't want me to marry. Next time I marry (I haven't remarried since because this time I will not settle for less), I will pray big time about it, to ask God to show me whether he's the one I should marry. With my past marriage, I was more or less just "doing my own thing." Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Is the Bible the final word on... Never. Link to post Share on other sites
Tony T Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 The final word should be your conscience. If you're in a bad relationship you're certainly not doing the other person any major favors by sticking around. The world suffers as well. The only thing to consider is that you have done everything possible to heal the marriage. If that's been done, there is no other choice but to divorce. In my opinion, the religious aspect of marriage is a technical matter. The Bible says "What God has joined together let no man put asunder." I think that is correct. Therefore, those whose "marriages" are chaotic, abusive or otherwise flawed were never "married" in the first place. Their souls were not joined together by God. Anybody can go into a church and go through a ceremony. Only two people who were absolutely meant for each other can be married. All the others are just living together and pretending to be married....and there are lots of those. If you are unhappy, don't screw up the rest of your life. With the wisdom you have gained, go out and find somebody you can REALLY be married to. I'm sure that's what God wants for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Reckless Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by klind1970 What is everyones view on the bible saying that divorce is wrong and you will go to hell? ... The bible does not say this. Marriage is indeed presented as a permanent union but Jesus clearly stated that adultery constitutes grounds for divorce and that the wronged partner is free to remarry with God's blessing (Matthew 19:9). I'm not a Catholic and don't know or care about 'church' teaching on this matter. The bible also speaks of Christians being within their rights in certain circumstances to seek separation from their marriage partner. The Scriptures encourage people to use the 'powers of reasoning' and staying in an abusive relationship with someone that threatens the mental, physical emotional or spiritual well being of themselves or their children is contrary to sound judgement and surely not in the plan of a loving creator. Whether or not you take that as the 'final word' is a personal choice, since God and good sense has endowed us all with free will. Bible teaching is the 'final word' only if you want it to be. God might 'hate a divorcing' but no more than violence and bad treatment within the family (Malachi 2:16). As for the punishment for disobeying scripture personally I believe you pick your poision and since I don't believe in 'hell' I'll quote my mother who told me that being in an unhappy marriage is as close to hell on earth as you can get without using a pitch fork! Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by Reckless Jesus clearly stated that adultery constitutes grounds for divorce and that the wronged partner is free to remarry with God's blessing (Matthew 19:9). Please note that this is only true for a husband who finds his wife is cheating on him. Link to post Share on other sites
Author klind1970 Posted March 14, 2004 Author Share Posted March 14, 2004 Thanks for the insight guys!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Reckless Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker Please note that this is only true for a husband who finds his wife is cheating on him. Jesus was asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?” According to Mark’s account, Jesus said: “Whoever divorces his wife [except on the ground of fornication] and marries another commits adultery against her, and if ever a woman, after divorcing her husband, marries another, she commits adultery.” (Mark 10:10-12; Matthew 19:3, 9) By the expression “commits adultery against her,” Jesus introduced a view that was not recognized in the rabbinic courts—the concept of a husband’s committing adultery against his wife. According to The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: “In rabbinic Judaism a woman by infidelity could commit adultery against her husband; and a man, by having sexual relations with another man’s wife, could commit adultery against him. But a man could never commit adultery against his wife, no matter what he did. Jesus, by putting the husband under the same moral obligation as the wife, raised the status and dignity of women.” By the phrase “after divorcing her husband,” Jesus recognized the right of a woman to divorce an unfaithful husband—a practice apparently known but not common under Jewish law in that day. It was said that “a woman may be divorced with or without her will, but a man only with his will.” According to Jesus, however, under the Christian system, the same standard would apply to both men and women. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Reckless, I see no biblical evidence of a woman being allowed to divorce her husband if he's unfaithful, but I'd certainly like to--could you clarify? Link to post Share on other sites
Reckless Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker Reckless, I see no biblical evidence of a woman being allowed to divorce her husband if he's unfaithful, but I'd certainly like to--could you clarify? Dyer, the post was itself a look at the 'biblical evidence' ie. an analysis of Jesus' words in the bible regarding a woman's right to divorce her husband. If you're asking for a biblical example of a case where this law was put into practise in the 1st century Christian congregation, as far as I know, there isn't one - but neither is there a 'case study' of a man divorcing his wife in the scriptures. In any case this does not detract from the central question: 'what does the bible say on the matter'. Since the bible is a guide book for those that choose to following it, its laws and principles are not necessarily illustrated with a 'real life' example of each case in point. The first paragraph of my post quoted Jesus' words found in the bible in Mark chapter 10 verses 10 through 12, if quoting (and reasoning on) the words in scripture does not constitute 'biblical evidence' maybe you'll have to explain what in your opinion, does. I absolutely do not wish to sound antagonistic, I am genuinely interested in what you would regard as 'biblical evidence'. Respect, R. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by Reckless The first paragraph of my post quoted Jesus' words found in the bible in Mark chapter 10 verses 10 through 12, if quoting (and reasoning on) the words in scripture does not constitute 'biblical evidence' maybe you'll have to explain what in your opinion, does. Your quote was in reply to my statement that only a man could divorce a woman on grounds of her unfaithfulness. You then quote Mark 10:10-12, which state that divorce is not permitted--for if you 'divorce' your husband/wife, and begin to know another, you are commiting adultery. You then interpret that quote as allowing women to divorce their husbands, but that's where you lose me. Mark 10:10-12 was saying that you can't go sleeping with someone else, that even if you've divorced them (by the way, there is no ban on divorce, it's only remarrying another after divorce, you don't have to sleep/live/talk with your spouse) you cannot go sleeping with anyone else. Matthew 19:9 was explaining that a man COULD remarry if his wife had been unfaithful. I was asking for some sort of scriptural reference that women were afforded the same benefits, for I could find none. Link to post Share on other sites
Karlise Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I would just like to add my two cents. The bible has been translated numerous times across the centuries. I have long wondered if certain passages or teachings have been twisted or distorted because... remember, it's faulty humans who re-wrote the texts. And certainly, biased faulted humans can and do make mistakes. Whenever someone quotes the bible I am hard pressed to bite my tongue. Yes, many religious teachings are wise and good. That said, many RELIGIONS, per se, are often corrupt (i.e. read the history of the Catholic church, for starters) Everyone has a private relationship with God that I think should take precedence over what you read or hear 'from the bible' I know some will accuse me of blasphemy here, but that's what I believe. God gave us free will and a consience. I say that you if you have done what you can but the marriage is in shambles, then you should close that chapter and move on. I mean honestly...should women stay with men who beat and abuse them or their children? I can't see a loving God ever condoning that. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by Karlise The bible has been translated numerous times across the centuries. I have long wondered if certain passages or teachings have been twisted or distorted because... remember, it's faulty humans who re-wrote the texts. You are quite correct, but the nine translations I have checked on this issue are almost identical. That said, many RELIGIONS, per se, are often corrupt (i.e. read the history of the Catholic church, for starters) The Catholic Church, as a RELIGION, is not corrupt. I suppose you mean the humans who are in charge? Link to post Share on other sites
Reckless Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker Your quote was in reply to my statement that only a man could divorce a woman on grounds of her unfaithfulness. You then quote Mark 10:10-12, which state that divorce is not permitted--for if you 'divorce' your husband/wife, and begin to know another, you are commiting adultery. You then interpret that quote as allowing women to divorce their husbands, but that's where you lose me. Mark 10:10-12 was saying that you can't go sleeping with someone else, that even if you've divorced them (by the way, there is no ban on divorce, it's only remarrying another after divorce, you don't have to sleep/live/talk with your spouse) you cannot go sleeping with anyone else. Matthew 19:9 was explaining that a man COULD remarry if his wife had been unfaithful. I was asking for some sort of scriptural reference that women were afforded the same benefits, for I could find none. Okay, I see where you're coming from. Well, Matthew 19:9 already says that divorce IS permitted on the grounds of adultery, so the question is, "can a woman have adultery committed against her?(and thus be free to seek a divorce)" In other words, if woman's husband sleeps with somebody else, is it considered 'adultery'? At the time the answer was no. Jesus implied that the answer was yes but we have to move away from Mathew to Mark to see that. As I said, at the time, if a woman slept with somebody other than her husband, it was considered adultery against her husband and he could therefore divorce her. But, if a man slept with a woman that was not his wife, it would not be considered adultery 'against' his wife. She therefore could not seek a divorce (since it was considered that no fault had been committed). That's where the second quote comes in (ie. post No. 8). Jesus was not asked on this occasion about women and their marital rights (casi non existent in his day) but in answering a question about a man's rights to divorce (the context being that the tradition at the time allowed a man to divorce his wife on the most trivial of grounds) and having already stated elsewhere that only adultery frees someone to re-marry, Jesus uses language on this occasion to open the principles to include both men and women on an equal footing. He stated that a woman can have adultery committed 'against' her. This was a new idea that would not have been lost on his listeners (both male and female), namely that a man can be guilty of adultery against his wife. She could therefore (based on the principle Jesus himself had already stated (in Mathew that adultery disolves the wedding vows), 'legally' seek a divorce. The idea, not of having a husband divorce his wife (common) but as quoted in Mark 10:12, of a wife 'divorcing her husband' was totally new. Once you establish the grounds for divorce and show that both men and women can seek one it seems that the standard applies to both sexes. Since Jesus was often between a rock and a hard place when he spoke and chose his words very carefully, I don't think it's hair splitting to interpret what he said in this way, ie that a woman can have adultery committed 'against' her and find herself in the position of 'divorcing her husband'. Of course, everything is open to interpretation but I just wanted to present a point of view that Jesus was in no way supporting laws, even two thousand years ago, that trapped women in the kind of marital situations that men could walk away from. Link to post Share on other sites
ldybg51 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I have pondered on this myself. I wonder if it is because women were 'lesser' than men and were not afforded as much thought as men were in the biblical times. It was all about a Man taking a Wife. Could this be applied to our times, times which women are just as imortant, and thought about (maybe even more haha) than men. Can we just assume that because it was okay for a man to divorce his wife and take another if she had been unfaithful that it is okay for women also in this day and age? Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by Reckless Well, Matthew 19:9 already says that divorce IS permitted on the grounds of adultery It specifically, in all translations I have read, uses pronouns which are gender-specific, granting a divorce only if the woman has been adulterous. Of course, everything is open to interpretation but I just wanted to present a point of view that Jesus was in no way supporting laws, even two thousand years ago, that trapped women in the kind of marital situations that men could walk away from. Yeah, what you say makes sense, it was ahead of it's time--we hardly consider our wives our property anymore, it seems more to be the other way around Link to post Share on other sites
Reckless Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ...in all translations I have read, uses pronouns which are gender-specific, granting a divorce only if the woman has been adulterous. Absolutely, but look at the times in which he lived, women would not have been part of the discussion (they wouldn't usually even have been in the room, except to serve the food and maybe clean up a little...). The fact that Jesus taught and conversed with them was peculiar even to his friends so of course when addressing most subjects it was normal that it was 'male orientated'. Even then some found some the things he said 'shocking' so I doubt if calling God 'she' and predicting the birth of Germaine Greer would have been very popular. Still the reason we're still talking (and making movies) about the man so long after his death, is that there is always another level to what he said. I hate to present Jesus as some flaming liberal but as you said, he was without a doubt 'ahead of his time'. Link to post Share on other sites
sonofhud Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 All I could find were quotes from 1 Corinthians 7:12-14, and this is of course the words of Paul, not Jesus. New International Version [12]To the rest I say this (I, not the lord); if any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. [13]And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. [14]For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the ubelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. New King James Version [12]But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. [13]And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. [14]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbeliving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. Link to post Share on other sites
End of my rope Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 As for me, and my opinion, it's that it isn't divorce that the bible "frowns" upon, it is the adultry that follows if you decide to remarry... Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Originally posted by End of my rope As for me, and my opinion, it's that it isn't divorce that the bible "frowns" upon, it is the adultry that follows if you decide to remarry... This is the truth, as I understand it. Link to post Share on other sites
Thinkalot Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 The bible is a guide, and a good one at that. But a guide only...not the final say. IMHO Link to post Share on other sites
amberdawn Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 First of all, when you ask this sorta question of course everybody is going to disagree and have different opinons of what the Bible says and doesn't say. Every single person interprets the Bible differents ways. Personally i think that if you get married, obviously you are in a very serious relationship and at the time never think that you would end up divorcing. If something goes wrong, like cheating, or it's just not working out, one way or the other you are your own person and you know what is best for you. It's my opinon that you're not going to go to hell just because you want a divorce to get out of (in whatever situation, but it might not be like this) a relationship that would probably cause you more pain if you stayed in the situation then going to 'Hell'. Divorce is something one does or doesn't believe in, just as the Bible is. If you don't believe in a divorce, why get married? I think that it only matters what YOU personally believe in. If you believe in God and the Bible, then okay...that's YOUR opinon, and your beliefs. If you believe that the Bible says that divorce is wrong then that is your interpretation. It only matters how you interpret what YOU believe in. Link to post Share on other sites
Karlise Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Dyer...you checked nine translations of the bible? You speak nine languages? HOLY MOLY.... I am impressed Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Karlise Dyer...you checked nine translations of the bible? You speak nine languages? Nine translations into English, the language I speak. New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952. Noah Webster Version 1833 Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 J.N.Darby Translation 1890 American Standard Version 1901 Hebrew Names Version 2000 Link to post Share on other sites
Karlise Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Oh, OK. That makes sense I was flabbergasted at the idea you speak 9 languages fluently!!! LOL Anyway, again translation is an art. Truly, no one can can perfectly capture the essense, time and culture of a long-ago time. Remember, many biblical stories are allegorical in nature. They were designed to teach people who for the most part were illiterate and uneducated, who may have had their own strong beliefs in folklore or magic or what have you. To translate teachings designed for a certain time, culture and societal mindset is a huge undertaking. I highly doubt any one person has done it perfectly. That is why I feel strongly that some things have been warped or twisted over time (perhaps not conciously so) I don't the bible is the final statement on anything. I think it is a guide Link to post Share on other sites
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