The Ultimate Denial of a WS

[East7]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

[OpenBook]

It's just one of the many examples of why a woman should never trust anything a man says. It's what he DOES that we should be paying attention to!

[woinlove]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

 

Those two points are certainly possibilities. I think a third possibility is that the WS was caught up with infatuation, lust, excitement or fantasy and mistook it for some deeper connection. I don't think this applies to your case, since, if I recall correctly, you and WS knew each other quite well. However, one of my MM who wanted to leave his M would be crazy if he didn't come to his senses and recognize our fling for what it was, although at the time he thought he had found his soul mate and love of his life. Since MM is still married more than a decade later, I assume he did come to his senses and would be category 3:

 

3 - they realize the A was a fantasy and that they had projected feelings of true love where none existed.

[East7]

It's just one of the many examples of why a woman should never trust anything a man says. It's what he DOES that we should be paying attention to!

 

It's valid for MW as well. Never give much credit to what a woman says but what she does.

[TigerCub]

Affairs are about being caught up in a fantasy. I know for me that's what it was - yes I developed REAL feelings for xMM, and yes, I got caught up and felt that we were 'meant to be together', but in the back of my mind, there was always doubt that was really true.

 

Yeah, we would have made a great couple if he wasn't a cheater but then again, I wouldn't have met him because if he was faithful, he wouldn't have approached me in the first place. - kinda a catch 22 thing...

 

However East, your 2 theories could also very well be true.

 

I think people lie to themselves all the time -

- MW could be lying to herself now to be ok with the A ending.

 

- her BS could be lying to himself and pretending he's in a happy M

 

- I lied to myself and for a brief while believed that xMM was this fantastic guy that I would somehow (against all odds) end up with and we'd be happy and he'd never cheat on me (yeah, the logical part of me called BullShyte on that one quick)

[East7]

However, one of my MM who wanted to leave his M would be crazy if he didn't come to his senses and recognize our fling for what it was, although at the time he thought he had found his soul mate and love of his life.

 

Well, clearly you haven't been in love, for you it was just a fling.

I'm talking about those WS who claimed being in love and then saying the opposite.

Denying having loved someone is not being true to yourself. Even if you stop loving someone you put your feelings in their context "Yes I was in love but I'm not anymore" would be more honest.

 

Since MM is still married more than a decade later, I assume he did come to his senses and would be category 3:

 

3 - they realize the A was a fantasy and that they had projected feelings of true love where none existed.

 

Or maybe because you dumped him and he had no choice.

 

Generally APs break-up not because there are no real feelings but because one of them is in a committed relationship.

[woinlove]

Well, clearly you haven't been in love, for you it was just a fling.

I'm talking about those WS who claimed being in love and then saying the opposite.

Denying having loved someone is not being true to yourself. Even if you stop loving someone you put your feelings in their context "Yes I was in love but I'm not anymore" would be more honest.

 

 

 

Or maybe because you dumped him and he had no choice.

 

Generally APs break-up not because there are no real feelings but because one of them is in a committed relationship.

 

Well, he thought I was in love because I told him so and I thought so at the time. Fling is my description well after the fact. It was only later when I finally was able to truly love someone that I realized what real love is. Not everyone is capable of really loving others. I was capable of being "in love" well before I developed into the kind of person who could really love and make a commitment.

 

You are right that I didn't give him a choice. Still, with the wisdom of hindsight, we really weren't suited for each other even though we wove an amazing fantasy at the time, and so I hope he came to realize that. Again, I'm sure this isn't your situation - but it was mine.

[someday]

Maybe the MM simply fell out of love with the OW? If a MM is able to fall out of love with his W is it not possible that they can also fall out of love with the OW?

 

Maybe the MM was only in 'lust' with the OW and to get what they wanted told them what they thought they wanted to hear? If the MM is able to lie to his W in this manner (to stay M'ed) isn't it possible that they could also lie to the OW in this manner?

[Spark1111]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

 

Both true! Very perceptive....

 

Just as they NEED to minimize the spouse to justify pursuing the affair, they NEED to minimize the AP when they re-enter or re-commit to the marriage.

 

Know all that crap that was said, or implied about the spouse? Same holds true for the AP.

 

He lied to me, to her, but mostly to himself!

 

The delusion is so great. In fact, one of our biggest arguments in MC is how now he needs to minimize his affair and I won't let him!

 

Why? Because by doing so he is indirectly minimizing the pain it caused me. Because I, not in any fog, remember every hurtful thing that was done and said in the aftermath of DDAY.

 

He does not. And if we are going to heal from it all, the truth has to prevail.

 

Many OW/OM are surprised that many BS do not want to hear what an orgre they were.

 

We just want the truth, and the acknowledgement of it, to be discussed openly and honestly from our WS.

[Ellin]

It's valid for MW as well. Never give much credit to what a woman says but what she does.

I think it's valid for anyone who got involved in a R with someone while still attached to someone else. This will obviously result in some kind of emotional confusion. Developing feelings for someone new do not automatically erase feelings that exist for the current partner. These feelings can be overshadowed but later can still re-emerge.

[Snowflower]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

 

It's the MO of some WS. These are very likely the same WS who, at the beginning of the affair, began a full denial and minimizing of their spouse and marriage.

 

I always say that the WS/MP who trashes their spouse to the AP are the very same ones who are likely to trash the AP to their spouse.

 

And the same thing with minimization of a partner/relationship.

 

So if your (general you) MM trashed talked his wife with you, expect that he will try to trash talk you after d-day to his wife.

 

If your MM totally minimized his marriage ("well, it hadn't been good for years") then expect him to minimize to his wife the affair relationship, as well ("she was just a friend"). Same MO, different relationship for the WS.

 

MPs are generally very poor communicators and are often conflict avoiders. These types of character traits often lead them to affairs, IMO.

[BB07]

It's the MO of some WS. These are very likely the same WS who, at the beginning of the affair, began a full denial and minimizing of their spouse and marriage.

 

I always say that the WS/MP who trashes their spouse to the AP are the very same ones who are likely to trash the AP to their spouse.

 

And the same thing with minimization of a partner/relationship.

 

So if your (general you) MM trashed talked his wife with you, expect that he will try to trash talk you after d-day to his wife.

 

If your MM totally minimized his marriage ("well, it hadn't been good for years") then expect him to minimize to his wife the affair relationship, as well ("she was just a friend"). Same MO, different relationship for the WS.

 

MPs are generally very poor communicators and are often conflict avoiders. These types of character traits often lead them to affairs, IMO.

 

 

I think this post is 100% accurate of what happens after the ****e hits the fan. Isn't a very flattering picture of the AP is it?

 

I also like to say that during the affair there is most likely a lot of deceiving oneself going on by the AP/OW/OM.

[East7]

 

Just as they NEED to minimize the spouse to justify pursuing the affair, they NEED to minimize the AP when they re-enter or re-commit to the marriage.

 

Well said ! Typical.

 

Ok Guys I must admit that this thread was inspired by the fact xMW broke NC yesterday.... She wanted to talk....ughh

 

 

Now that she decided to stay with H, she is telling me that basically we were "friends who had sex" so we can go on as "just friends" because she misses me (not that she loves me, but she just misses me), trying to minimize all our relationship to something closer to friendship.

She is the very one who would tell me how much she is in love with me, how boring her Hubby is etc etc.

I don't know what she wants from me. Probably keeping an EA..It makes me sick because I genuinely loved her and I am feeling much better now.

[secretlady76]

Well said ! Typical.

 

Ok Guys I must admit that this thread was inspired by the fact xMW broke NC yesterday.... She wanted to talk....ughh

 

 

Now that she decided to stay with H, she is telling me that basically we were "friends who had sex" so we can go on as "just friends" because she misses me (not that she loves me, but she just misses me), trying to minimize all our relationship to something closer to friendship.

She is the very one who would tell me how much she is in love with me, how boring her Hubby is etc etc.

I don't know what she wants from me. Probably keeping an EA..It makes me sick because I genuinely loved her and I am feeling much better now.

 

Right, well, if you're sensible you'll tell her to stick her suggestion up her arse and not to contact you again. You will then make it impossible for her to contact you again. If you're not sensible, you'll believe what she's saying and fall for her manipulation and get sucked back into it.

 

Don't give her the ego trip, get rid.

[herenow]

MPs are generally very poor communicators and are often conflict avoiders. These types of character traits often lead them to affairs, IMO.

 

True!

 

My H admitted that he did things on D-day hoping he would get caught. He believed that getting caught would be the best way to end the affair. His OW began to ask more of him than he was willing to give her, and he didn't want the "conflict" of having to end it himself.

 

He expected to use me as a excuse to end it with her. What he didn't expect was my reaction to his affair. When I told him to go be with her, he was then faced with real "conflict" and that was the start of his healing. He had to accept responsibility for his actions towards me, her and himself, there was no running away from it.

 

A WS may, as the OP said, be in denial. Or, they may just be avoiding the conflict of accepting responsibility for their actions. As long as BS and/or OW/OM will allow a WS to avoid dealing with reality of their own issues, nothing will ever get resolved, IMO.

[whichwayisup]

Well said ! Typical.

 

Ok Guys I must admit that this thread was inspired by the fact xMW broke NC yesterday.... She wanted to talk....ughh

 

 

Now that she decided to stay with H, she is telling me that basically we were "friends who had sex" so we can go on as "just friends" because she misses me (not that she loves me, but she just misses me), trying to minimize all our relationship to something closer to friendship.

She is the very one who would tell me how much she is in love with me, how boring her Hubby is etc etc.

I don't know what she wants from me. Probably keeping an EA..It makes me sick because I genuinely loved her and I am feeling much better now.

 

You are her ego stroke now. It is unfair to YOU to keep any friendship with her, she is just being selfish.. When she needs that extra boost, she'll reach out to you. When she wants to flirt and cross the lines, she'll reach out to you.. Notice how it's all about her? She misses how you made her feel, all related to ego.

 

I hope you choose not to pursue a friendship with her, that will do more damage to you.

[OWoman]

As long as BS and/or OW/OM will allow a WS to avoid dealing with reality of their own issues, nothing will ever get resolved, IMO.

 

Very true. But, being forced to confront their issues if they're not really willing, or ready, to confront them will also just drive the issues underground.

[Star_Bright]

Affairs are about being caught up in a fantasy. I know for me that's what it was - yes I developed REAL feelings for xMM, and yes, I got caught up and felt that we were 'meant to be together', but in the back of my mind, there was always doubt that was really true.

 

Yeah, we would have made a great couple if he wasn't a cheater but then again, I wouldn't have met him because if he was faithful, he wouldn't have approached me in the first place. - kinda a catch 22 thing...

 

However East, your 2 theories could also very well be true.

 

I think people lie to themselves all the time -

- MW could be lying to herself now to be ok with the A ending.

 

- her BS could be lying to himself and pretending he's in a happy M

 

- I lied to myself and for a brief while believed that xMM was this fantastic guy that I would somehow (against all odds) end up with and we'd be happy and he'd never cheat on me (yeah, the logical part of me called BullShyte on that one quick)

 

This is a great post TigerCub! I completely agree with everything you wrote.

 

I know that exMM threw me under the bus on D-Day because he admitted to me that he minimized the extent of our A (just sex, when he was telling me he was madly in love w/ me) to his wife, and I can only imagine what else he said about me based on the crappy and blame-shifting stuff he had told me about HER. It only makes sense that he would do the same about me, once it came time to save his hide. But then after I realized all of these things I also realized I couldn't really blame him because I too had been caught up in the fantasy as you say -- I had these crazy strong feelings for him but when I looked at him realistically, he was a liar and a cheat and honestly rather cowardly and self-centered. So what did I expect and how could I expect him not to start seeing things more realistically now that he was forced out of the fantasy?

[herenow]

Very true. But, being forced to confront their issues if they're not really willing, or ready, to confront them will also just drive the issues underground.

 

True, but then they have to accept the consequences of those actions as well.

 

Had my H not accepted responsibility and confronted his issues head on, he would have been served with divorced papers and we would now be divorced.

 

Action=Reaction

 

On the flip side, had I not taken responsibility for my own part in taking our marriage for granted, I'm sure there would have been consequences for my actions.

[Spark1111]

True!

 

My H admitted that he did things on D-day hoping he would get caught. He believed that getting caught would be the best way to end the affair. His OW began to ask more of him than he was willing to give her, and he didn't want the "conflict" of having to end it himself.

 

He expected to use me as a excuse to end it with her. What he didn't expect was my reaction to his affair. When I told him to go be with her, he was then faced with real "conflict" and that was the start of his healing. He had to accept responsibility for his actions towards me, her and himself, there was no running away from it.

 

A WS may, as the OP said, be in denial. Or, they may just be avoiding the conflict of accepting responsibility for their actions. As long as BS and/or OW/OM will allow a WS to avoid dealing with reality of their own issues, nothing will ever get resolved, IMO.

 

I had the same reaction....and I too believe my husband was trying to get caught.

 

And I, initially, only felt empathy for this OW who now had her MM at her kitchen table crying about "getting back home."

 

My heart broke for her.

 

They still had occasional contact, and when I discovered it, I threw him out again asking, Why are you still here?"

 

But he initiated NC and again, she seemed heartbroken, hoping they could still "be friends."

 

Of course, they could not.

 

And I wonder why people would want to "be friends."

 

To ease their guilt? To keep the emotional aspect open? The door open? To ease their lonliness?

[East7]

You are her ego stroke now. It is unfair to YOU to keep any friendship with her, she is just being selfish.. When she needs that extra boost, she'll reach out to you. When she wants to flirt and cross the lines, she'll reach out to you.. Notice how it's all about her? She misses how you made her feel, all related to ego.

 

I hope you choose not to pursue a friendship with her, that will do more damage to you.

 

It has always been ALL about her. She is incredibly spoiled.

Just imagine she told her H about us, he forgave her and now she wants to be friends with me...Good job, Peace and Love everywhere !

Either her H is naive or he doesn't know everything (PA).

 

Friendship was always the name she gave to the A itself. She never called me "lover", "honey" or whatever, just "my friend". It was her way of keeping it light and pushing away any eventuality of commitment.

 

No I'm not buying the friendship line.

 

And I wonder why people would want to "be friends."

 

To ease their guilt? To keep the emotional aspect open?

 

In my case she does it very probably for these both reasons (feeling less guilty and leave a door open).

Edited December 16, 2010 by East7

[Heather1]

Ahhh, the mythical "friend" option.

 

It eliminates the withdraw of NC, or it's offered as a "I'm done, but I want to let this trickle off & not piss you off so you'll tell my spouse." Plus, it's as confusing as could be.

 

If there's no attraction on either end anymore....possible. Otherwise, naive & actually kind of cruel if one person has lost the attraction entirely & the other has not.

[OWoman]

True, but then they have to accept the consequences of those actions as well.

 

Of course. Accepting the consequences of our actions is part of being adult.

[OWoman]

And I wonder why people would want to "be friends."

 

To ease their guilt? To keep the emotional aspect open? The door open? To ease their lonliness?

 

Beats me. That's why I've always kept my "lovers" category very separate from my "friends" category. Lovers are disposable, but friends are forever.

[herenow]

Of course. Accepting the consequences of our actions is part of being adult.

 

Yes, we agree!

 

So, back to the topic of this thread:

 

I guess I'm just disagreeing with the concept that the WS is in denial. I think they are just trying to avoid taking responsibility for what they have done or said (for whatever reason) and accept the consequences of reality.