The Ultimate Denial of a WS

[Snowflower]

It has always been ALL about her. She is incredibly spoiled.

Just imagine she told her H about us, he forgave her and now she wants to be friends with me...Good job, Peace and Love everywhere !

Either her H is naive or he doesn't know everything (PA).

 

Friendship was always the name she gave to the A itself. She never called me "lover", "honey" or whatever, just "my friend". It was her way of keeping it light and pushing away any eventuality of commitment.

 

 

Interesting that she has always tried to keep it light and kept considering the affair as the two of you being "friends." I think this is more unusual for a woman since women generally seek romantic affection. In any case, I would imagine that this is quite hurtful to you.

 

As for her husband, I'm sure she is/was using the same "we're just friends" line with him. She was able to minimize the affair to him and to herself that way. Now she is trying to use that same rationale on you and to keep it light. And to ease her guilt. I agree with the other posters who said it is all to make HER feel good and what is easy for HER.

 

Meanwhile, you and her husband are getting the lousy ends of the deal.

 

It's good you realize this, East; hope it will save you from further hurt.

[redcurls]

Denial, you say?

 

Throughout the entire span of our affair, for over a year, xMM kept explaining to me what a good marriage he has. How he keeps no secrets from his wife, how she has access to his email and FB accounts, how they have built a life where they do everything together, how he is proud to be a man that rushes home every day to be with his family.

 

And he was saying all these things to me. ME!

 

And he was saying all these things using his mouth and lips that were all over MY body not too long before, and will be all over MY body again not too long after.

 

Oh, yeah. The perfect family man. The perfect husband and father.

[ladydesigner]

I had the same reaction....and I too believe my husband was trying to get caught.

 

And I, initially, only felt empathy for this OW who now had her MM at her kitchen table crying about "getting back home."

 

My heart broke for her.

 

They still had occasional contact, and when I discovered it, I threw him out again asking, Why are you still here?"

 

But he initiated NC and again, she seemed heartbroken, hoping they could still "be friends."

 

Of course, they could not.

 

And I wonder why people would want to "be friends."

 

To ease their guilt? To keep the emotional aspect open? The door open? To ease their lonliness?

 

I always wondered about this "friends" thing too. Although my XAP ended with me he still pursued via email and wanted to remain friends. I did not, but obviously was still weak and maintained LC until I had had enough. I realized I wanted my M and could not have that with XAP being a "friend" in my life. I cut the strings.

 

But to the original OP question I never did or could see myself with my XAP. I originally saw him as friend and I was attracted to him on an intellectual level. I thought I could have my revenge affair in a NSA manner. Of course I ended up falling for him. My XAP said he did as well and was not expecting to fall so quickly or so deeply. Now I just chalk it up to really bad boundaries on my part and a complete lack of sense and integrity. I will never put myself in that position again. i find that both myself and my XAP are both to be at fault. He knew full well I was married with kids and still continued to flirt and pursue regardless of my statyus. I finally gave in.

[Snowflower]

Yes, we agree!

 

So, back to the topic of this thread:

 

I guess I'm just disagreeing with the concept that the WS is in denial. I think they are just trying to avoid taking responsibility for what they have done or said (for whatever reason) and accept the consequences of reality.

 

Well said. I think the WS lies to themselves most of all and they often do this through avoidance of contemplating what they are actually doing (an affair).

 

If they can just continue to blame their crappy marriage or their unloving spouse, then they can go on living in their alternate reality.

 

When reality sets in, then they are faced with the consequences of their actions and reality is a cold slap in the face. I've read it over and over again here and I think back to my own situation where my H was just so far removed from what reality really was in the situation that it was almost funny.

 

My H was another one who admitted that he wanted me to catch him/to make him stop what he was doing. Total avoidance on his part. He didn't want have to appear to be the bad guy to the OW so I would have had to come in and take that role: big, bad wifey figured it out. It was the weirdest thing and those who have been on the outside of the affair dynamic, as the BS usually is, to see the crazy-making clearly.

[2sure]

When I was OW..the MM never ever spoke ill of his wife or family or anything like that. It was the opposite. They talked about how wonderful life at home was, beautiful wife, smart kids. If anything, they would occasionally portray themselves as selfless providers.

 

They were the ultimate in ego feeding selfishness.

 

They had it all, just wanted a little bit more.

 

Thing is...the OW (me) was the little bit and the wife and family was the all.

[Snowflower]

Denial, you say?

 

Throughout the entire span of our affair, for over a year, xMM kept explaining to me what a good marriage he has. How he keeps no secrets from his wife, how she has access to his email and FB accounts, how they have built a life where they do everything together, how he is proud to be a man that rushes home every day to be with his family.

 

And he was saying all these things to me. ME!

 

And he was saying all these things using his mouth and lips that were all over MY body not too long before, and will be all over MY body again not too long after.

 

Oh, yeah. The perfect family man. The perfect husband and father.

 

Just like I said, it is crazy-making! RC, you are probably hearing the lies he is telling to himself and the self-justifications he is using to be in an affair: "no, I really am a perfect husband and family man. I am open with my wife and I spend a lot of time with her."

 

His self-delusion is extreme. It's almost like he is insane.

 

He is lying to himself and when reality comes crashing down for him, whether it is a d-day or his conscience suddenly gets the best of him, he is likely going to fall apart and spin out of control.

 

RC, get away and protect your heart.

[redcurls]

Just like I said, it is crazy-making! RC, you are probably hearing the lies he is telling to himself and the self-justifications he is using to be in an affair: "no, I really am a perfect husband and family man. I am open with my wife and I spend a lot of time with her."

 

His self-delusion is extreme. It's almost like he is insane.

 

He is lying to himself and when reality comes crashing down for him, whether it is a d-day or his conscience suddenly gets the best of him, he is likely going to fall apart and spin out of control.

 

RC, get away and protect your heart.

 

Its over. And its too late too. My heart is shredded beyond recognition.

[herenow]

Well said. I think the WS lies to themselves most of all and they often do this through avoidance of contemplating what they are actually doing (an affair).

 

If they can just continue to blame their crappy marriage or their unloving spouse, then they can go on living in their alternate reality.

 

When reality sets in, then they are faced with the consequences of their actions and reality is a cold slap in the face. I've read it over and over again here and I think back to my own situation where my H was just so far removed from what reality really was in the situation that it was almost funny.

 

My H was another one who admitted that he wanted me to catch him/to make him stop what he was doing. Total avoidance on his part. He didn't want have to appear to be the bad guy to the OW so I would have had to come in and take that role: big, bad wifey figured it out. It was the weirdest thing and those who have been on the outside of the affair dynamic, as the BS usually is, to see the crazy-making clearly.

 

Yup! So contatry to the OP who says the WS is in denial after the affair (I think that is what the OP is trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong), I think the denial is more during the affair.

 

When reality hits, it more about preservation of whatever the WS wants. When they don't get what they want, the are forced to face the consequences.

 

If the OW/OM and/or the BS allow the WS to avoid that reality, then status quo continues, IMO.

[East7]

Denial, you say?

 

Throughout the entire span of our affair, for over a year, xMM kept explaining to me what a good marriage he has. How he keeps no secrets from his wife, how she has access to his email and FB accounts, how they have built a life where they do everything together, how he is proud to be a man that rushes home every day to be with his family.

 

And he was saying all these things to me. ME!

Oh, yeah. The perfect family man. The perfect husband and father.

 

That's worse ! That the same as banging and saying "I'm not a cheater, no I'm not a cheater..." Insane really...

 

Yup! So contatry to the OP who says the WS is in denial after the affair (I think that is what the OP is trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong), I think the denial is more during the affair.

 

Actually during the A and after it. During the A they minimize their M and after it they minimize the A. Two faces of the same coin (denial).

[OWoman]

I guess I'm just disagreeing with the concept that the WS is in denial. I think they are just trying to avoid taking responsibility for what they have done or said (for whatever reason) and accept the consequences of reality.

 

But... isn't that trying to duck taking responsibility / accepting consequences at the root of denial?

[seren]

Both true! Very perceptive....

 

Just as they NEED to minimize the spouse to justify pursuing the affair, they NEED to minimize the AP when they re-enter or re-commit to the marriage.

 

Know all that crap that was said, or implied about the spouse? Same holds true for the AP.

 

He lied to me, to her, but mostly to himself!

 

The delusion is so great. In fact, one of our biggest arguments in MC is how now he needs to minimize his affair and I won't let him!

 

Why? Because by doing so he is indirectly minimizing the pain it caused me. Because I, not in any fog, remember every hurtful thing that was done and said in the aftermath of DDAY.

 

He does not. And if we are going to heal from it all, the truth has to prevail.

 

Many OW/OM are surprised that many BS do not want to hear what an orgre they were.

 

We just want the truth, and the acknowledgement of it, to be discussed openly and honestly from our WS.

 

Oh absolutely Spark even though my H did not tell OW that he loved her (oh that he had done it for love) she loved him. I so get onto him when he says bad things about her, I just don't allow it. If he wants to feel bad about the A, go ahead, but accept that it is your bad to carry.

Personally, after I have got to know her, I just felt sorry for her, her home life was crap and boy did her husband make her suffer. I didn't like her as a person, but it still did/does not give H the right to speak about her in a derogatory way.

I think many OW/OM would be suprised that many BS don't want to hear about them being awful, just want to know why their WS did what they did and what it was about the AP that enabled this.

[herenow]

But... isn't that trying to duck taking responsibility / accepting consequences at the root of denial?

 

Yes, but I don't think the WS is in denial. I think they are doing and saying whatever they need to avoid the conflict, knowing full well what they did was to blame.

 

Maybe they are "denying" the truth to the OW/OM and/or the BS, but I think that is different than being in denial. Does that make sense?

[TigerCub]

I think many OW/OM would be suprised that many BS don't want to hear about them being awful, just want to know why their WS did what they did

 

I can certainly understand that because by talking trash about the OW/OM the WS would be:

 

- minimizing what they did

- most of all pretty much saying that they jepordized their M and all it stood for just for a piece of trash they don't even like apparently - I think that would make the whole thing more insulting.

I'm not saying the WS should gush about the OW/OM - but they shouldn't just make them seem so trashy and worthless because that would speak about how little they valued the M in the first place - if they were willing to throw it all away for them.

 

However, I think that WSs think that if they make the OW/OM look bad to their BS that they are showing that they "came to their senses" and appreciate the BS oh so much more than the OM/OW.

[TigerCub]

This is a great post TigerCub! I completely agree with everything you wrote.

 

I know that exMM threw me under the bus on D-Day because he admitted to me that he minimized the extent of our A (just sex, when he was telling me he was madly in love w/ me) to his wife, and I can only imagine what else he said about me based on the crappy and blame-shifting stuff he had told me about HER. It only makes sense that he would do the same about me, once it came time to save his hide. But then after I realized all of these things I also realized I couldn't really blame him because I too had been caught up in the fantasy as you say -- I had these crazy strong feelings for him but when I looked at him realistically, he was a liar and a cheat and honestly rather cowardly and self-centered. So what did I expect and how could I expect him not to start seeing things more realistically now that he was forced out of the fantasy?

 

Exactly SB!

That's the thing - once you're out of the fog you see things so much more clearly and can be a lot more objective about what to expect the MM to do.

 

The thing is - They gotta have really bad qualities if even IN THE FOG you have your doubts, even in the fantasy - there was a part of me that was like "what the hell?! he's not going to change and you'd always be looking over your (sorry, HIS) shoulder if you were ever really together anyways"

[East7]

However, I think that WSs think that if they make the OW/OM look bad to their BS that they are showing that they "came to their senses" and appreciate the BS oh so much more than the OM/OW.

 

That's a good point. They are so desperate of being accepted by the BS, that they almost despise the OP, the one they used to tell sweet words not long ago. Completely phony.

[Spark1111]

That's a good point. They are so desperate of being accepted by the BS, that they almost despise the OP, the one they used to tell sweet words not long ago. Completely phony.

 

My FWS never did this.....

 

If he had tried, I would have called him on it for all the reasons other posters have mentioned above.

 

I kept telling him to go get her; I kept telling him that if I had been texting words of undying love that I intercepted, I would have had a bag packed a long time ago.

 

I never disparaged her. And inititally, he didn't either.

 

Over time, with hind sight being 20/20.....not only did he lie to her in his self-delusion, but there were many things she told him that were not....all together true.

 

The point I am trying to make is that somewhere in the midst of their affair relationship, they both put forth a facade and hormones, secrecy and projection painted the rest of the portrait.

 

Maybe that IS the nature of the affair relationship. All is not as it seems; everyone puts their best face forward, and the truth lies somewhere outside of it.....a truth you cannot see until you are far away from it.

 

You didn't meet the spouses, the families, many of the friends, the co-workers because you had to keep each other a secret. You could not assess each other's true personna.

 

Who was your affair partner? Whoever you wanted them to be. And they did the same for you.

[2sure]

Who was your affair partner? Whoever you wanted them to be. And they did the same for you.

 

Nailed it. That was my experience exactly as OW - they made the affair and even myself seem so much more than reality. They and the dynamics of the affair were a real ego boost to me and to them. But I knew it was an illusion, even looking back ...why I knew and they didnt...I cant explain.

 

And with that knowledge when I eventually became a BS..who the OW was didnt really matter.

[Owl]

Hmmmm....

 

My wife had an EA. She believed that she was in love with OM.

 

She never has 'trash talked' OM at all, although she did come to the realization that she never truly knew him. She could understand why I had plenty of reason to hate him, to think ill of him in any number of ways. She could see how from my angle that would be justified.

 

But I will say she never "through him under the bus". She has acknowledged that their relationship was largely based on fantasy rather than true interpersonal knowledge of each other...but doesn't try to minimize what they thought they shared.

 

I don't really expect that she would. If she hadn't felt it was "worth it" at the time, she never would have taken the actions she had.

 

The closest she comes to bad-mouthing now would be when she says she's glad that thing worked out the way that they did, and that she realizes now that she made a huge, huge mistake all the way around by having the EA, and she's glad we were able to save our marriage.

 

I admit that I didn't have an expectation that she WOULD 'throw him under the bus', nor was it a requirement for us to reconcile. I wonder how much of a factor that might be in some situations where this happens?

[BB07]

To me.........the WS who throws the AP under the bus is refusing to accept the truth of the damage they have caused to all parties, and yet again they are blame shifting.

 

Also.......the BS who won't put up with that silly crap of the WS calling the AP nasty names and in general accepting him/her making the OW/OM the bad guy shows a lot of class and a lot of wisdom. Seems that most of the reconciled couples on LS are the ones who made the WS accountable to the spouse but also accountable to themselves. In other words the bull****e has to fly out the window.

[NoIDidn't]

Yes, but I don't think the WS is in denial. I think they are doing and saying whatever they need to avoid the conflict, knowing full well what they did was to blame.

 

Maybe they are "denying" the truth to the OW/OM and/or the BS, but I think that is different than being in denial. Does that make sense?

 

Its denial, HN. LOL. The avoidance of anything is denying it the chance to be dealt with.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I agree with the others that its denial. People employ conflict avoidance because they refuse to accept reality. And refusing to accept reality is being in denial.

[East7]

Who was your affair partner? Whoever you wanted them to be. And they did the same for you.

 

This is very true, although xMW was honest with me, never made promises or pretended. What I can say in addition is that we both had fantasized about each-other.

 

Hmmmm....

 

My wife had an EA. She believed that she was in love with OM.

 

She never has 'trash talked' OM at all, although she did come to the realization that she never truly knew him.

 

But I will say she never "through him under the bus". She has acknowledged that their relationship was largely based on fantasy rather than true interpersonal knowledge of each other...but doesn't try to minimize what they thought they shared.

 

Well, having read the story (in 2006 if I'm not wrong) the circumstances limited your W actions to online-flirting. It wasn't really an A in the classic meaning of the relationship.

 

The denial is more flagrant when they have developed both Emotional (with many "I love you-s") and physical relationship and make it later look like insignificant.

I think when the A goes physical, it goes in an upper stage even if for most women, the emotional A has already a huge romantic meaning.

[Woggle]

What else do you expect from a person who is willing to betray and cheat on a person they made a much deeper promise with than the one they made to you? By nature they are being dishonest so why is this a shock?

[September]

Not sure what my xMM would have disclosed to his BS. I do know that he did tell her and his family that he was in love with me and that I made him incredibly happy.

 

After he went home, I can't imagine him saying too much about it though. They are both real rug sweepers. Our relationship was for nearly two years and was very very emotionally and physically intense. I have pages and pages of love notes from him, discussions about our future together, discussions about buying property together, we opened a joint bank account and so on and so on. If she knew any of those details, I am not sure how she could ever get over it.

 

Sometimes it's easier to just pretend it didn't happen...

[pureinheart]

It's just one of the many examples of why a woman should never trust anything a man says. It's what he DOES that we should be paying attention to!

 

You crack me up OB...I swear I feel this way sometimes!

[pureinheart]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

 

 

Hi East,

 

I think you worded OP very well, so I hope I can give a proper response.

 

Personal experience: Me-

 

As a WS, after finding out that home boys (h's) had A's, I digested it for a bit and afterwards had A's in which I left the M's for. I didn't care...I've always been that way though, as I do what I want to when I want to. Would I have been a WS if they had not had A's...I don't know.

 

ExDM former WS- He cheated on her from day one (according to him) and she cheated on him, when her cheating started I don't know.

 

I personally think they enjoyed the cheating game as it gave spice to the M...was it denial? I don't think so.