The Ultimate Denial of a WS

[OWoman]

You didn't meet the spouses, the families, many of the friends, the co-workers because you had to keep each other a secret. You could not assess each other's true personna.

 

Who was your affair partner? Whoever you wanted them to be. And they did the same for you.

 

Hmmm - I must say, I can't relate to this, though I'm sure it is true in some situations. In mine, I only had As with people I knew, and who I'd checked out very thoroughly beforehand. I knew exactly who they were, from other contexts and through my research. I'm just not a naturally trusting person - no way would I involve myself with anyone I did not know and "trust".

 

The days of meeting someone in a bar, or through a friend, and considering them shag material stopped once I graduated. When you have kids, a home, a job and other responsibilities, you just can't afford to take stupid chances like that.

[East7]

What else do you expect from a person who is willing to betray and cheat on a person they made a much deeper promise with than the one they made to you? By nature they are being dishonest so why is this a shock?

 

Well said Woggle, I feel responsible for my own hurt and deception as I tell my self everyday : "Dude what did you expect she was married".

 

The fact is that all OM/OW are in a kind of fog themselves when they have feelings. I fell for her and I let it happen with "her help", with her "I love you-s and I need you-s"

 

And IMO what hurts most of OM/OW is the fact that probably all that "crazy love" they have been promised was only a mirage.

 

I personally think they enjoyed the cheating game as it gave spice to the M...was it denial? I don't think so.

 

Hi PiH

 

I don't think there is denial when the A are revenge A or loveless A (pure sexual).

[pureinheart]

Well said Woggle, I feel responsible for my own hurt and deception as I tell my self everyday : "Dude what did you expect she was married".

 

The fact is that all OM/OW are in a kind of fog themselves when they have feelings. I fell for her and I let it happen with "her help", with her "I love you-s and I need you-s"

 

And IMO what hurts most of OM/OW is the fact that probably all that "crazy love" they have been promised was only a mirage.

 

 

 

 

I am really sorry East, you know, I have to say exDM never promised anything, yes his actions showed both outcomes...he did get D'ed..he did tell me in the beginning that he would never marry again and I need that actual marriage commitment, so we parted after our time was completed.

 

I think it is unfair to give mixed signals, although it happens all of the time.

 

I really wanted to believe that even though he told me the truth, that it wasn't, and was devasted in my own denial. If there was any R or situation in my life that I heard what I wanted to it was that...we were best friends first. Looking back, it should have remained as friends.

 

I do understand your lose.

 

I'm reading a book, and it discusses the possibility of running into each other unexpectedly...I pray that never happens, as should we be with others I know we would be playing the "nice" game...very fake it would be. I hate fake.

 

Take care East, your good people and there is a wonderful person out there for you!

Edited December 17, 2010 by pureinheart

[pureinheart]

Hmmm - I must say, I can't relate to this, though I'm sure it is true in some situations. In mine, I only had As with people I knew, and who I'd checked out very thoroughly beforehand. I knew exactly who they were, from other contexts and through my research. I'm just not a naturally trusting person - no way would I involve myself with anyone I did not know and "trust".

 

The days of meeting someone in a bar, or through a friend, and considering them shag material stopped once I graduated. When you have kids, a home, a job and other responsibilities, you just can't afford to take stupid chances like that.

 

Oh, hell no...I sometimes studied people for years. Prefer people that have grown up "here", as I can check them out from a number of past friends, and then can get a feel for "who they really are". I must have reliable background.

 

Also the older you get, more experience is acquired, more knowledge, more of a past and life story to tell.

 

I know I will eventually hook up with an old friend...like someone I've known a minimum of 20 years!

 

The online dating, I guess it works for some, but I think it is a great risk...exDM's sister is into that, she has traveled to far places to "meet" these guys she has only spoken to online....she is very sick now and I hope she didn't get something from one of these encounters:mad:

[TigerCub]

That's a good point. They are so desperate of being accepted by the BS, that they almost despise the OP, the one they used to tell sweet words not long ago. Completely phony.

 

I honestly don't even think that they do despise the OP. I think they're just saying all that crap and overdoing it just to flatter the BS (at least that's how the WS sees it probably).

 

But then again, it totally depends on the OP and how the BS found out about the affair as well - if the OP turned all crazy and wanted **** to hit the fan for the MP - then yeah I can see some resentment, but if that stuff didn't happen - I honestly can't see how they genuinely despise the OP.

[Owl]

Well, having read the story (in 2006 if I'm not wrong) the circumstances limited your W actions to online-flirting. It wasn't really an A in the classic meaning of the relationship.

 

The denial is more flagrant when they have developed both Emotional (with many "I love you-s") and physical relationship and make it later look like insignificant.

I think when the A goes physical, it goes in an upper stage even if for most women, the emotional A has already a huge romantic meaning.

 

Well, personally I'd consider it more than online flirting. They were exchanging many "I love you's" both online and over the phone daily/hourly, planning on meeting together within the next two weeks (at that time mind you), and he purchased her plane tickets to fly out and live with him when d-day occurred...and she agreed and was planning to do so.

 

A little more than 'online flirting'.

 

It was a full blown emotional affair. I'll grant it never went physical...I wasn't willing to be a doormat and sit there and let that happen.

 

Trust me...in some ways I really believe it was worse BECAUSE it was long-distance...as you yourself had alluded to in another thread. The fantasy factor made it much harder to deal with BECAUSE he'd never had the chance to "let her down" with reality.

[JaneyAmazed]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

 

 

I understand what you are saying. I think there's a difference in people who were in the affair for a long time vs. a short-term affair like mine. For some people, especially in a short-term affair, I think it's easy to confuse love with lust. The reason I believe I couldn't have really loved him is because I didn't know him well enough. I didn't share day-to-day life with him. I spent maybe 2 hours a week with him maybe twice a month. The rest of the time were e-mails, but it wasn't a real relationship. It couldn't be. It was definitely a fantasy for me. During the affair, I was so dependent on him, it really did mess up my thinking. I thought I was in love, but after being separated from the situation for several weeks, I see clearer now. So it's not denial for me. I think I liked him a lot and I definitely lusted for him, but I don't think it was real true love. If I had stayed with him longer or got to spend more time with him, it's very possible it would have turned into real love. I'm glad I won't ever know that now.

[JaneyAmazed]

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

 

 

I thought I'd address this too. These are things that I learned along the way during the affair. At first I didn't think any of those things. At first, I really loved all his good qualities and didn't see much bad (other than the obvious - he knew I was married and didn't care). Along the way, I could see little things that I would consider red flags. The fact that he didn't think he could ever be faithful to anyone, his views on certain things that were important to me weren't important to him, etc. AP and I knew we could never be a real couple, so I let a lot things go. I focused on the here and now and the good things about him during the affair. Also, I had stooped to such a low level, I actually thought that I could exuse a lot of things that I wouldn't have if I had been living right. It's hard to explain. I guess since I was cheating and he was helping me cheat, I didn't respect him much, but I didn't respect myself either. Now that I've been away from that, I see how both of us should have respected our families enough to not have made excuses to see each other. I fault myself just as much as him, but it is hard to see him the way I used to because it really was a fantasy. I believed what I wanted to about him, but now things are clearer.

 

[blizzard]

I recall xMM telling me "He didn't know who he was anymore" when his wife was suspecting the affair...right before dday.

I think it can sometimes be a pull of direction. The wife saying "You used to be this and that...you said forever...who are you!?" And then, there is the internal mind that he may have really liked who he had become.

Sometimes, I feel sad for my xMM. I really think he liked the person he was with me...I honestly believe this. Carefree, a relationship not linked to her alcoholism. But, I believe he returned to her because it was what he was supposed to do...when she vowed to recover and he vowed forever. I don't envy the life he returned to...and I don't envy either of them. I just feel sorry that he stepped back into a tough situation that was sucking the life out of him. But, it is what he is suppose to do. He always felt pressured to be the "good one" in his own family out of several siblings that failed.

Did xMM minimize? Yes. Sometimes I did too...it helps the hurt when you pretend it wasn't anything special. We discussed on several occasions of why it would be hard for us to work out...once our divorces were final. So, I am sure he pulls from that to ease his guilt. At dday he said I deserved better than him, so I am sure eases guilt by a sense of "letting me go" for my own good.

 

I asked xMM if he had been totally honest with her about the i love yous. He said no. He couldn't hurt her anymore. That she didn't need to know the details. So basically, I took the fall. Guess he told her I chased him. The BS sees me as preying on her victimless husband. UGH!

 

I like what snowflower and tiger said...

unfortunately, he was speaking the truth of her alcoholism though...it's a known fact.

Edited February 10, 2011 by blizzard

[Spark1111]

And if BS was so terrible, why did they need to keep the M? Their projection of guilt and fault onto the OP is much like attributing all of the marital problems to the BS. I think in an A, pretty much any argument can be held for both sides of the equation.

 

In the end, I think it it's because it has very little to do with the BS or OP, and much more to do with the WS him/herself. They don't have good conflict resolution skills which is why, IMO, they end up in these situations in the first place.

 

What we can identify in any A universally is that there is a WS involved in TWO dysfunctional relationships. There is one common denominator in both of those R's...the WS.

 

 

Oh, yeah, the WS is quite a peice of work during the affair.

 

I kept telling him if she is your soul mate, what ae you doing here?

 

I kept asking him, if she made you happy, then why were you so miserable?

 

And yes, like many reconciled fBS, I did not believe him, not one iota, when he TRIED to minimize her or the affair relationship.

 

So I think it is a defense mechanism to protect the psyche.

 

First, when they need to give themselves permission to enter the affair, they need to create a negative marital environment and minimize the marriage.

 

And then again, when they want to return to the marriage and begin to realize the devastation the affair caused, THEY NEED to minimize the AP and the affair.

 

Once again it is all about the WS protecting themselves and their self-image from THEIR actions and its consequences.

[SoMovinOn]

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

It is natural human psychology to convince ourselves we've made the right choice any time we make a choice. There is a natural tendency to, at first, question our choice, then convince ourselves it was correct.

 

Think of "Buyer's Remorse".

 

Nothing worth being angry over.

[SoMovinOn]

It's just one of the many examples of why a woman should never trust anything a man says. It's what he DOES that we should be paying attention to!

 

No need to limit that to men. No person should trust what another person says, in any situation, if their actions do not support their words.

[East7]

So I think it is a defense mechanism to protect the psyche.

 

First, when they need to give themselves permission to enter the affair, they need to create a negative marital environment and minimize the marriage.

 

And then again, when they want to return to the marriage and begin to realize the devastation the affair caused, THEY NEED to minimize the AP and the affair.

 

Once again it is all about the WS protecting themselves and their self-image from THEIR actions and its consequences.

 

Excellent post Spark.

 

I started the thread when xMW was denying the whole thing between us, still breaking NC with me. Crazy...

After telling me how much she loves her H, she came a few months later to tell me she still loves and misses me. Talk about consistency.

[East7]

I understand what you are saying. I think there's a difference in people who were in the affair for a long time vs. a short-term affair like mine. For some people, especially in a short-term affair, I think it's easy to confuse love with lust. The reason I believe I couldn't have really loved him is because I didn't know him well enough. I didn't share day-to-day life with him. I spent maybe 2 hours a week with him maybe twice a month. The rest of the time were e-mails, but it wasn't a real relationship. It couldn't be. It was definitely a fantasy for me. During the affair, I was so dependent on him, it really did mess up my thinking. I thought I was in love, but after being separated from the situation for several weeks, I see clearer now. So it's not denial for me.

I think I liked him a lot and I definitely lusted for him, but I don't think it was real true love. If I had stayed with him longer or got to spend more time with him, it's very possible it would have turned into real love. I'm glad I won't ever know that now.

 

Janey, thanks for your input.

Yes it makes a difference if the A was long or short term. Some (like your case) spend a few months, others years. In a 4 months A surely you didn't had time to know each-other and I believe you when you say you are not in denial. Your attitude is healthy and clear. Each situation is different.

I would be more impressed from fMM/fMW who spend literally years in A and end up denying or minimizing it.

[Mimolicious]

What makes me angry is those WS who after going back to their M, begin a full denial and minimizing their AP.

 

During the A they say :

 

- I love OP, I'm crazy for OP.

- I'm torn, I miss OP, I want to be with him/her.

 

Once they go back to BS the very same WS says :

 

- OP would have been a terrible partner / husband / wife

- OP and I were very different

- OP and I couldn't reasonably have a LTR.

- Hubby/W is so much better..

 

If OP was so terrible why did they need to keep the A ? (sometimes for years).

 

IMO :

 

1- either they want to convince themselves that they have made the "good choice", pure conscious dishonesty, in other words lying to themselves.

 

2 - or they "project" their guilt on OP shoulders to feel better and less guilty.

 

They say the same shyte about their S, just in a different order. Bad, then good when they need to kiss ass. Thing is that they need to rico suave the OP first, then throw them under. The S, gets thrown under first and then...

 

Of course, this applies to the scenario that you are describing since it seems like the WS ditched the OP and settled for the S. We know that is hardly ever really the case. Right?

[2sure]

Regarding "minimizing" the affair.

When the WS does that, it is especially insulting to the BS - for whom the discovery of the affair is...well, a great big freaking deal.

 

My exH's infidelity was long term and chronic , even though he was not attached to any one partner. He loved me and it was difficult for him when I left, he didnt want me to.

 

For him, it was like a dark hobby. He did it when he was bored with himself or needed an ego feed. It was not more than that to him.

He minimized his infidelity to me because to him...it wasnt important, that was his truth.

 

Years ago before marrying, I was OW to MM more than once. They were happy with the bulk of their lives ( family, wife, career, success) but wanted something more, just for themselves. Something separate and selfish. I knew that even though they said they loved me and saw how difficult it was for them when I left them...that although they didnt want me to leave...it was because they couldnt stand the idea of not having absolutely everything. The real life and the affair.

 

Had they been caught, they would have said: It was stupid and selfish, I dont know why I did it. It wasnt important.

 

 

And it would have been the truth.

 

Affairs are way more important to BS and OW than they are to MM.

[msbrightside]

Both true! Very perceptive....

 

Just as they NEED to minimize the spouse to justify pursuing the affair, they NEED to minimize the AP when they re-enter or re-commit to the marriage.

 

Know all that crap that was said, or implied about the spouse? Same holds true for the AP.

 

He lied to me, to her, but mostly to himself!

 

The delusion is so great. In fact, one of our biggest arguments in MC is how now he needs to minimize his affair and I won't let him!

 

Why? Because by doing so he is indirectly minimizing the pain it caused me. Because I, not in any fog, remember every hurtful thing that was done and said in the aftermath of DDAY.

 

He does not. And if we are going to heal from it all, the truth has to prevail.

 

Many OW/OM are surprised that many BS do not want to hear what an orgre they were.

 

We just want the truth, and the acknowledgement of it, to be discussed openly and honestly from our WS.

 

OMG .. that is powerful.. wow

[jj33]

Affairs are about being caught up in a fantasy. I know for me that's what it was - yes I developed REAL feelings for xMM, and yes, I got caught up and felt that we were 'meant to be together', but in the back of my mind, there was always doubt that was really true.

 

Yeah, we would have made a great couple if he wasn't a cheater but then again, I wouldn't have met him because if he was faithful, he wouldn't have approached me in the first place. - kinda a catch 22 thing...

 

However East, your 2 theories could also very well be true.

 

I think people lie to themselves all the time -

- MW could be lying to herself now to be ok with the A ending.

 

- her BS could be lying to himself and pretending he's in a happy M

 

- I lied to myself and for a brief while believed that xMM was this fantastic guy that I would somehow (against all odds) end up with and we'd be happy and he'd never cheat on me (yeah, the logical part of me called BullShyte on that one quick)

 

Maybe your affair was about being caught up in fantasy but that doesnt mean all affairs are about being caught up in fantasy. I know mine was not a fantasy and I know many others are not fantasies. Tell that to the people who are now married to the MM that they had an A with.

 

I think you are rewriting history. If he had left and you had lived happily ever after it would not have been a fantasy would it?

 

Only you know what happened in your situation but this sounds a lot more like a rationalization to me.

[BB07]

Maybe your affair was about being caught up in fantasy but that doesnt mean all affairs are about being caught up in fantasy. I know mine was not a fantasy and I know many others are not fantasies. Tell that to the people who are now married to the MM that they had an A with.

 

I think you are rewriting history. If he had left and you had lived happily ever after it would not have been a fantasy would it?

 

Only you know what happened in your situation but this sounds a lot more like a rationalization to me.

 

 

I saw some truth in Tiger's post and I'm not rationalizing. lol

The more time that goes by the more I'm thankful that I did not end up with him and that isn't even including the lies. It's the passive aggressiveness I was starting to see, the way my needs and wants were secondary. He really wasn't much fun when we went out, (maybe he had to work to hard to keep his stories straight,). The way he promised things that he never delivered on. He wasn't very thoughtful or considerate of me at times. The passive aggressiveness was the most concerning and when asked, is something wrong, he would say no, when there clearly was.

Of course it wasn't all bad, but the things I mentioned are major things and they were there before I found out about all the lies. I see now that it would not have worked even if he hadn't been such a liar because the skills (ha ha) that he had that made him such a good liar and victim aren't conductive to a good honest open relationship and they don't point to someone who has the capability of being open to change.

[jj33]

BB I think your situation was exceptional in many ways. Some affairs are based on fantasy and some affairs are just about one AP or the others ego just like all non affaire relationships.

 

The thing is affairs as a general rule cant be written off as fantasy. I know mine was not a fantasy to either of us. And again what about the people who wind up happily married to their APs. Surely those are not fantasies.

[woinlove]

Oh, yeah, the WS is quite a peice of work during the affair.

 

I kept telling him if she is your soul mate, what ae you doing here?

 

I kept asking him, if she made you happy, then why were you so miserable?

 

And yes, like many reconciled fBS, I did not believe him, not one iota, when he TRIED to minimize her or the affair relationship.

 

So I think it is a defense mechanism to protect the psyche.

 

First, when they need to give themselves permission to enter the affair, they need to create a negative marital environment and minimize the marriage.

 

And then again, when they want to return to the marriage and begin to realize the devastation the affair caused, THEY NEED to minimize the AP and the affair.

 

Once again it is all about the WS protecting themselves and their self-image from THEIR actions and its consequences.

 

This is a great post, Spark. About the bolded, we see so much on this forum of how MM/MW often speak of their M and the BS during the A. That the minimization of the AP and A is just more rationalization to protect themselves makes sense.

[woinlove]

]And again what about the people who wind up happily married to their APs. Surely those are not fantasies.

 

If one is going to have a very long, fulfilling marriage, I don't think it can be built on fantasy. At least that wouldn't work for me.

 

However, one can certainly start out in a fantasy R with someone and develop into something much more. My own M first started as a LDR which I think had a lot of fantasy. I see our R and M as an evolution where the feelings continually deepened, we got to know the real us better and better, and shared more and more of our lives. However, if our R had ended during that LDR stage, I would have said our R was fantasy. Fantasy in R's is not restricted to A's. It involves at least one person only showing and sharing part of themselves. Usually this is only a short period in a new R, but in a LDR or in an A it can stretch into a very long period.

 

When a MM/MW leaves the M for the AP sometimes the reality doesn't match the fantasy, and sometimes maybe it never was a fantasy or maybe it was but it deepens into something more. If it wasn't a fantasy, then I think the MM/MW wasn't married in the sense most of us would think of as M. Legally, perhaps, but not in mind and spirit.

Edited February 12, 2011 by woinlove

[jj33]

Many relationships affairs or otherwise start out with an idealization of the other person or the way the future will unfold. That is not a special feature of a affair.

 

But are you saying all Rs that dont end in marriage are fantasies?

 

Or that if a spouse is absent in spirit or mind are in a fantasy marriage?

 

I think the MM/MW wasn't married in the sense most of us would think of as M. Legally, perhaps, but not in mind and spirit.

 

Wow. If so then many many peopel are in fantasy marriages. There are so many many marriages where people dont cheat but they are not present mentally and spritually and not committed mentally or spiritually. They are maintaining the status quo .They escape with golf, with sports, with work with computers, by drinking.

 

Many spouses have passively checked out of their marriages but dont cheat. I think the difference HAS to be did they actually have a relationshp with another person otherwise many many marriages are fantasies by your definition.

 

We will obviously have to agree to disagree. Its interesting that you dont give any credence to the shades of grey that from my perspective, exist in relationships whether they are Rs between single people, marriages or affairs.

 

To me relationships are much more subtle and complex than that I dont see the world in such black and white terms. I think that mentality is sometimes what causes problems in marriages and also leads to scenarios where one spouse does cheat and the other spouse has no idea and claims the marriage was very happy. In both cases (I am not saying they are necessarily interelated) the person who fails to see shades of grey or the nuances, misses the signs and signals that they are getting from their spouses because they see everything in black and white.

[East7]

I like this saying:

 

The affair is AP's reality and MP's fantasy.

 

The single APs invest 100% into the A, often they don't have parallel relationships. The MW/MM is their reality.

 

On the other side, MPs live in a different world: their marriage is their reality, they wake up with their spouse, go to work, come back home and have dinner, play with kids or whatever then go to bed with the BS. Their marriage is their reality, but they have the AP in their mind 24/7, they are physically at home and mentally elsewhere. Thus the affair is their fantasy even if the stolen moments spent with the AP are real. It is called havig a double life.

 

I have been in a long distance A so the fantasy factor was even bigger. My xMW had an amazing imagination, she was able to fantasize me and her in a kind of dreamland, hand in hands, grow old together kind of things while spending her real life with another man. For me she was my daily reality, I would wait for the telephone call, skype and our endless talking, make up plans to meet etc.

 

To come back to the topic, the denial is easier for the WS because they will justify it with the fact that it was just "fantasy".

[woinlove]

Many relationships affairs or otherwise start out with an idealization of the other person or the way the future will unfold. That is not a special feature of a affair.

 

But are you saying all Rs that dont end in marriage are fantasies?

 

No, I wasn't saying that.

 

Or that if a spouse is absent in spirit or mind are in a fantasy marriage?

 

No, I wasn't saying that.

 

 

 

Wow. If so then many many peopel are in fantasy marriages. There are so many many marriages where people dont cheat but they are not present mentally and spritually and not committed mentally or spiritually. They are maintaining the status quo .They escape with golf, with sports, with work with computers, by drinking.

 

Many spouses have passively checked out of their marriages but dont cheat. I think the difference HAS to be did they actually have a relationshp with another person otherwise many many marriages are fantasies by your definition.

 

We will obviously have to agree to disagree. Its interesting that you dont give any credence to the shades of grey that from my perspective, exist in relationships whether they are Rs between single people, marriages or affairs.

 

To me relationships are much more subtle and complex than that I dont see the world in such black and white terms. I think that mentality is sometimes what causes problems in marriages and also leads to scenarios where one spouse does cheat and the other spouse has no idea and claims the marriage was very happy. In both cases (I am not saying they are necessarily interelated) the person who fails to see shades of grey or the nuances, misses the signs and signals that they are getting from their spouses because they see everything in black and white.

 

Many ongoing affairs involve the AP leading a double life - one life with their spouse and family and another with their AP. If the MM/MW is sharing all of themselves and their life with the AP there really isn't much left over for the BS and/or family, is there? That's what I meant by not being married in mind and spirit. In an open M, this can happen by bringing a third person in and really sharing one's life, but then it is not a secret from the spouse and there is no BS.

 

As for your idea that my "mentality" may lead to cheating -- in my experience, it is communication, communication, communication, which I think helps spouses stay faithful and on the same track. Some people will cheat no matter what or with whom, but for others, I think open communication is really key. It certainly has been in my own M.